Braid

2013-06-03 03:54:36 am

I actually just help Kanban85 with the "elevator action" and we fixed his problem Smiley

He didn't realize that he had time to finish climbing the ladder before pressing "left" to land on the upper platform. Now it's way easier!

KanBan85

Edit history:

KanBan85: 2013-06-03 07:04:28 am

2013-06-03 06:59:55 am

We both like money! Friends?

Indeed it is. Thanks a lot for the help. Got new PR with 27:35!!! almost 3,5 min better Smiley

(Did not record... Sad

)

It is hard to record and play well at the same time these days since the game lags more then. I need a better CPU....

P-why

2013-06-03 07:42:50 am

Quote from KanBan85:

Got new PR with 27:35!!!

GG ! Should I start being scared Tongue

? Keep going, you'll get sub 27 soon ! If you do, you'd probably be the 3rd ever (?)!

Patashu

Edit history:

Patashu: 2013-06-03 04:42:32 pm

2013-06-03 04:42:19 pm

If you ever make a stream setup KanBan85, post it here so we can watch Smiley

(goes for anyone else who would stream Braid too!)

KanBan85

Edit history:

KanBan85: 2013-06-04 02:14:19 am

KanBan85: 2013-06-04 02:14:00 am

KanBan85: 2013-06-04 01:38:41 am

2013-06-04 01:02:41 am

We both like money! Friends?

Don't think I should post here every time I go online (kinda spammy...) but, I'm online now, and my stream is: Twitch.tv/KanBan85 I've tried to get it added to w00t's list.

Edit: Recorded 28:33 run. Very happy with that. Some stupid errors. I'll upload that one to youtube I think, since the only youtube run I have is closer to 34 min or so. If I can preform anything like that in Sweden I'll be happy Smiley

Tim

2013-06-04 09:37:31 am

Quote from KanBan85:

Got new PR with 27:35!!!

Such good progress, it is much better than your previous 31 mins PR. Good job! thumbsup

And good luck in Sweden.

Quote from P-why:

sometimes I do 6-stars runs.

I found only one your video with 6-stars 35:33. Did you have better times? (Your 35 mins was very weak played. I guess even sub30 can be done by human if someone will try it seriously.)

Btw about non-humans speedruns - "all stars" TAS will be or not? I want to see it so badly! I hope keylie-sensei not leave us without stars Roll Eyes

P-why

2013-06-05 04:57:07 am

Quote from Tim:

I found only one your video with 6-stars 35:33. Did you have better times? (Your 35 mins was very weak played. I guess even sub30 can be done by human if someone will try it seriously.)

My current PB for 6-stars is about 31 minutes, I did not record that, and I don't practice 6-stars really.. but yes sub 30 is clearly manageable if I try a bit harder! My 6-stars runs are just for fun (for now). Don't know if I'll push it to go sub 30 atm, but eventually I will Wink

Archanfel

Edit history:

Archanfel: 2013-06-05 10:25:36 am

2013-06-05 10:04:00 am

Quote from P-why:

My current PB for 6-stars is about 31 minutes, I did not record that, and I don't practice 6-stars really.. but yes sub 30 is clearly manageable if I try a bit harder! My 6-stars runs are just for fun (for now). Don't know if I'll push it to go sub 30 atm, but eventually I will Wink

If you want to push your 6-stars to the human limit, would be good be have this run on SDA. I think it can be accepted.

---
Meanwhile i reflected about sub-human time-optimal route for 4-7 with star. That room with star became incredibly complicated. Here a few crazy ideas what i found so far - "Three-Phase-Route":

Phase 0. Get both pieces in same order as in route without star.
Absolutely the same input until transmitting key. Just after transmitting key - kill goomba, before getting second puzzle piece (to reduce waiting of next goomba.)

Phase I. Turning key around.
Rewinding to very beginning seems too long. It bad option.
But Tim can't go left with key to climb up wth key?... However fortunately green goomba can to do it.

And now Tim can climb up with key, I think it can faster than rewinding to very beginning.

Phase II. Climb up with goomba.
Tim can interact with goomba during rewind-forward. So no need to going down at all Smiley

Phase III. Impossibru! (Skip the lever attempt. )

In theory it can be done, if maintain goomba on head-jumping and into ladder hole (with key).
But i not sure how to turn goomba to the left. So may be Phase III is not workable, but chances are good. May be need to involve wall to do it.
---
P.S. There are other alternative routes (for example if rewinding to very beginning is possible to climb up with single jump from cannon). But imho three-phases is the most promising to be the fastest.

[quote="P-why"]My current PB for 6-stars is about 31 minutes, I did not record that, and I don't practice 6-stars really.. but yes sub 30 is clearly manageable if I try a bit harder! My 6-stars runs are just for fun (for now). Don't know[b][i] if I'll push it to go sub 30 [/i][/b]atm, but eventually I will ;)
[/quote]If you want to push your 6-stars to the human limit, would be good be have this run on SDA. I think it can be accepted.

---
Meanwhile i reflected about sub-human time-optimal route for 4-7 [i][b]with star.[/b][/i] That room with star became incredibly complicated. Here a few crazy ideas what i found so far - "Three-Phase-Route":

[b]Phase 0.[/b] Get both pieces in same order as in route without star. 
Absolutely the same input until transmitting key.  Just after transmitting key - kill goomba, before getting second puzzle piece (to reduce waiting of next goomba.)

[b]Phase I.[/b] Turning key around.
Rewinding to very beginning seems too long. It bad option.
But Tim can't go left with key to climb up wth key?... However fortunately green goomba can to do it.
[hidden]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN3WOgkWYH4[/hidden]And now Tim can climb up with key, I think it can faster than rewinding to very beginning.

[b]Phase II.[/b] Climb up with goomba.
Tim can interact with goomba during rewind-forward. So no need to going down at all :)
[hidden]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qU6g8-KC5s[/hidden] 
[b]Phase III.[/b] Impossibru!  (Skip the lever attempt. )
[hidden][URL=http://hostingkartinok.com][IMG]http://s2.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2013/06/5c00bbdccd19a2783d050fd3d14bab0f.bmp[/IMG][/URL][/hidden]In theory it can be done, if maintain goomba on head-jumping and into ladder hole (with key).
But i not sure how to turn goomba to the left. So may be Phase III is not workable, but chances are good. May be need to involve wall to do it.
---
P.S. There are other alternative routes (for example if rewinding to very beginning is possible to climb up with single jump from cannon). But imho three-phases is the most promising to be the fastest.

KanBan85

2013-06-09 10:50:35 pm

We both like money! Friends?

HI everybody!

Like you all probably know by know, I am going to ESA (European Speedster assembly) to speedrun Braid. I will be using some of the new strats but not all. This will be exciting especially since there has been so much development within speedrunning braid in the kast 5 months or so.

I would like to be able to explain all the tricks I am doing as I run, but I am really bad at talking and speedrunning at the same time (despise my rants in my streammm Smiley

). So here is the question:

Is there anyone who is willing / able to come with me to Sweden to do "commentating"?

If P-Why or Plafo32 could come, I would commentate and they could spedrun ofc Wink

so I assume that they cannot make it (in fact I know p_why probably can't make it), but is there anyone else who has a solid understanding of the game and does not live too far away from Sweden?

I was going to bring a friend or my brother and teach them the tricks, but they could not make it after all.

P-why

2013-06-10 02:45:28 am

I really wish I could come, but unfortunately that won't happen... I'm not sure but maybe a French speedrunner will be at ESA, I can talk to him about commenting Braid, because he knows the game a bit (he's part of a superplay team and one of them used to run Braid). If I have news from him soon, I'll let you know. Actually he is on SDA : https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/profile/A-M.html

KanBan85

2013-06-14 05:54:28 am

We both like money! Friends?

New PB: 26:29:52 Finally sub 27!

Here:

P-why

2013-06-14 11:02:59 am

Quote from KanBan85:

New PB: 26:29:52 Finally sub 27!

Gratz

You're getting closer! Keep going man, and ESA will be very nice!
I'll watch the run asap Wink

Patashu

Edit history:

Patashu: 2013-06-24 07:40:03 am

Patashu: 2013-06-17 09:26:51 am

Patashu: 2013-06-17 09:25:50 am

Patashu: 2013-06-17 09:20:26 am

2013-06-17 09:20:09 am

Ok, I finally started learning how to speedrun this game. Only world 2 so far :). I wrote down notes/route to help me keep track of everything that's worth remembering. I also have a visual cue for the Leap of Faith leap of faith that I think is consistent. Here it is:

UPDATE: This guide is a bit out of date now. The general advice is good and the cue for Leap of Faith is good but it is missing some bunnyhops/etc. I will improve this in the future or ask me to.

0-0 HOUSE:
-When every level begins, unless it gets in your way to do so, jump (acceleration trick from TAS). Jump.
-Every hill should be bunnyhopped down unless it gets in your way to do so (speed compounds going down hill and is lost up hill, you maintain excess speed perfectly in air, and bunnyhopping counteracts friction). Bunnyhop down the stairs but do not land on the upstairs, instead do a jump that clears it entirely.
-You can get corner boosts by bonking your head on an upper corner or by bonking your feet on a lower corner. Corner boosts are very precise tricks but most are worth attempting once. Headbonk corner boost on the entrance to world 2 room, and prepare a bunnyhop for if you get it (you can send jump input up to 12 frames in advance and it is accepted)
-Not used yet, but note: Air jump/ladder glitch. After leaving ground state for up to 8 frames you can give jump input and it will succeed. Works on falling state (air jump) and ladders (ladder glitch). Also works if you rewind to a time when a platform existed and it no longer exists (air jump).
-Note: Practice hitting rewind due to mistakes fast and fitting as much extra rewind speed in as you can.

2-0:
-Jump.

2-1 THREE EASY PIECES:

-Jump.
-All corner boosts should be attempted once. Go for corner boost (Tim must jump just as his center is aligned with the shaft of the P of SPACEBAR)
-Start bunnyhopping in the gap between the two orange flower clusters. Grab onto the grill and go upright and you should perfectly clear the corner.
-Release as soon as you are over land, because Tim's grill speed is slightly slower.
-Approaching second grill, start bunnyhopping downhill toward it when Tim's center is aligned with the peak of the first rock after the tall flower, grab onto the grill, go up and right and let go. (For the last bunnyhop you cannot rejump immediately due to Tim sliding down the slope so violently, so jump later)
-Go for corner boost (any top right of the stone stairs, both are nice)
-(Note that you could 'megaman fall' by jumping off the square stone and falling fast to the lower floor, but since you decelerate slower in air than on land it is faster to just turn sharp and fall down, and TAS does so)
-When grabbing puzzle piece #1, jump early so that your turn around is on land (deceleration trick from TAS, decelerating is faster on land than in mid air)
-Make sure to jump late (Tim about to walk off the ledge) up to platform with puzzle piece #2
-Jump onto cannon must be done very late.
-For jump onto cannon after puzzle piece #3, just bounce off of goomba it shoots out and go fro corner boost off the back of the cannon.

2-2 THE CLOUD BRIDGE (first visit):

-Jump, bunnyhop.
-Turn around on land while grabbing key.
-Jump when you let go of the ladder (acceleration trick).
-When you reach the cloud cannon, there will be a sliver of cloud coming out of it. If you jump in a narrow window you will jump with cloud momentum, else you will not. Run along clouds for momentum, bunnyhop in the central platform, bunnyhop on opposing cloud platforms until you leave them so it SLOWS you as little as possible. You can try corner boost on second cannon but it will not always line up.
-Jump late when reaching the goomba so you can go for corner boost attempt.
-Bunnyhop towards door, starting early so you land in front of door.

2-3 HUNT (first visit):

-Jump.
-Jump early over goomba, don't land on the uphill.

2-4 LEAP OF FAITH (first visit):

-Jump and bunnyhop toward ladder.
-Hit lever as soon as possible.
-Now hit lever as soon as goomba spawns. Now you have placed goomba on platform optimally (it gets maximum boosted movement of the platform by traversing it entirely)
-Stand so Tim's head is under the bulging point of the overhead rock formation. Jump as goomba is approaching and start moving just before landing on it.

2-3 HUNT (second visit):

-While moving left, jump when Tim's body is past maximally overlapping flower. You will kill goomba #1 and land on platform above.
-Kill goombas #2, #3 and #4 optimally, then you will bounce immediately up to goomba #5. Bounce straight up and grab the ladder when your jump is starting to slow down as ladder velocity is instant.
-If you like, you can do shoryuken on goomba #6 (explanation: you can hit a goomba by jumping into it rather than falling onto it after a jump, because being higher or lower determines the victor, not who is rising or falling. it saves time but not much and is precise)
-While dropping down the ladder to go left, you can hit jump as soon as 8 frames after you begin descent (any sooner and you get ladder glitch, which is an airjump from ladder-holding state instead of airborne state). However, you want to wait a bit longer so you do not hit your head moving left and bounce right instead.

2-2 THE CLOUD BRIDGE (second visit):

-Don't jump, uphill is in the way.
-While waiting for goomba to come onto platform piece #2 (it must be very aligned), ascend using platform piece #1.
-Since timer pauses during puzzles, maximize time spent not jumping rather than learn to do puzzles faster.
-You can't reach puzzle piece unless goomba is at least about to exit transparent foreground fawn leaf (if goomba is travelling right)

2-3 HUNT (third visit):

-Jump.
-Jump early over goomba, don't land on the uphill.

2-4 LEAP OF FAITH (second visit):

-Here is my visual cue: Stand very close to the edge of the cliff, where it looks like you're about to fall off. Now, wait for the fuse to be burning (not the sparkle effect but the fuse itself) in the perfect middle the bottom left and bottom right flowers (out of the three flowers near the cannon base). Jump and hold right simultaneously - if you are biten (too early), rewind slightly and hold right less and you will make it. If you miss completely (too late), rewind and try cue again.
-(no hurry because you will _always_ make the pirahna plant cycle) Wait for goomba, walk under, climb to get puzzle piece, wait for next goomba to fall, climb up, jump onto rim of pirahna plant pipe (you can barely fit while pirahna plant is up), wait for it to be about gone, jump and attempt corner boost on right side of rim bunnyhopping out of it.
-Walk up hill and bunnyhop against bridge into goalpost.

---

Ok, I finally started learning how to speedrun this game. Only world 2 so far :). I wrote down notes/route to help me keep track of everything that's worth remembering. I also have a visual cue for the Leap of Faith leap of faith that I think is consistent. Here it is:

[b]UPDATE: This guide is a bit out of date now. The general advice is good and the cue for Leap of Faith is good but it is missing some bunnyhops/etc. I will improve this in the future or ask me to.[/b]

0-0 HOUSE:
-When every level begins, unless it gets in your way to do so, jump (acceleration trick from TAS). Jump.
-Every hill should be bunnyhopped down unless it gets in your way to do so (speed compounds going down hill and is lost up hill, you maintain excess speed perfectly in air, and bunnyhopping counteracts friction). Bunnyhop down the stairs but do not land on the upstairs, instead do a jump that clears it entirely.
-You can get corner boosts by bonking your head on an upper corner or by bonking your feet on a lower corner. Corner boosts are very precise tricks but most are worth attempting once. Headbonk corner boost on the entrance to world 2 room, and prepare a bunnyhop for if you get it (you can send jump input up to 12 frames in advance and it is accepted)
-Not used yet, but note: Air jump/ladder glitch. After leaving ground state for up to 8 frames you can give jump input and it will succeed. Works on falling state (air jump) and ladders (ladder glitch). Also works if you rewind to a time when a platform existed and it no longer exists (air jump).
-Note: Practice hitting rewind due to mistakes fast and fitting as much extra rewind speed in as you can.

2-0:
-Jump.

2-1 THREE EASY PIECES:

-Jump.
-All corner boosts should be attempted once. Go for corner boost (Tim must jump just as his center is aligned with the shaft of the P of SPACEBAR)
-Start bunnyhopping in the gap between the two orange flower clusters. Grab onto the grill and go upright and you should perfectly clear the corner.
-Release as soon as you are over land, because Tim's grill speed is slightly slower.
-Approaching second grill, start bunnyhopping downhill toward it when Tim's center is aligned with the peak of the first rock after the tall flower, grab onto the grill, go up and right and let go. (For the last bunnyhop you cannot rejump immediately due to Tim sliding down the slope so violently, so jump later)
-Go for corner boost (any top right of the stone stairs, both are nice)
-(Note that you could 'megaman fall' by jumping off the square stone and falling fast to the lower floor, but since you decelerate slower in air than on land it is faster to just turn sharp and fall down, and TAS does so)
-When grabbing puzzle piece #1, jump early so that your turn around is on land (deceleration trick from TAS, decelerating is faster on land than in mid air)
-Make sure to jump late (Tim about to walk off the ledge) up to platform with puzzle piece #2
-Jump onto cannon must be done very late.
-For jump onto cannon after puzzle piece #3, just bounce off of goomba it shoots out and go fro corner boost off the back of the cannon.

2-2 THE CLOUD BRIDGE (first visit):

-Jump, bunnyhop.
-Turn around on land while grabbing key.
-Jump when you let go of the ladder (acceleration trick).
-When you reach the cloud cannon, there will be a sliver of cloud coming out of it. If you jump in a narrow window you will jump with cloud momentum, else you will not. Run along clouds for momentum, bunnyhop in the central platform, bunnyhop on opposing cloud platforms until you leave them so it SLOWS you as little as possible. You can try corner boost on second cannon but it will not always line up.
-Jump late when reaching the goomba so you can go for corner boost attempt.
-Bunnyhop towards door, starting early so you land in front of door.

2-3 HUNT (first visit):

-Jump.
-Jump early over goomba, don't land on the uphill.

2-4 LEAP OF FAITH (first visit):

-Jump and bunnyhop toward ladder.
-Hit lever as soon as possible.
-Now hit lever as soon as goomba spawns. Now you have placed goomba on platform optimally (it gets maximum boosted movement of the platform by traversing it entirely)
-Stand so Tim's head is under the bulging point of the overhead rock formation. Jump as goomba is approaching and start moving just before landing on it.

2-3 HUNT (second visit):

-While moving left, jump when Tim's body is past maximally overlapping flower. You will kill goomba #1 and land on platform above.
-Kill goombas #2, #3 and #4 optimally, then you will bounce immediately up to goomba #5. Bounce straight up and grab the ladder when your jump is starting to slow down as ladder velocity is instant.
-If you like, you can do shoryuken on goomba #6 (explanation: you can hit a goomba by jumping into it rather than falling onto it after a jump, because being higher or lower determines the victor, not who is rising or falling. it saves time but not much and is precise)
-While dropping down the ladder to go left, you can hit jump as soon as 8 frames after you begin descent (any sooner and you get ladder glitch, which is an airjump from ladder-holding state instead of airborne state). However, you want to wait a bit longer so you do not hit your head moving left and bounce right instead.

2-2 THE CLOUD BRIDGE (second visit):

-Don't jump, uphill is in the way.
-While waiting for goomba to come onto platform piece #2 (it must be very aligned), ascend using platform piece #1.
-Since timer pauses during puzzles, maximize time spent not jumping rather than learn to do puzzles faster.
-You can't reach puzzle piece unless goomba is at least about to exit transparent foreground fawn leaf (if goomba is travelling right)

2-3 HUNT (third visit):

-Jump.
-Jump early over goomba, don't land on the uphill.

2-4 LEAP OF FAITH (second visit):

-Here is my visual cue: Stand very close to the edge of the cliff, where it looks like you're about to fall off. Now, wait for the fuse to be burning (not the sparkle effect but the fuse itself) in the perfect middle the bottom left and bottom right flowers (out of the three flowers near the cannon base). Jump and hold right simultaneously - if you are biten (too early), rewind slightly and hold right less and you will make it. If you miss completely (too late), rewind and try cue again.
-(no hurry because you will _always_ make the pirahna plant cycle) Wait for goomba, walk under, climb to get puzzle piece, wait for next goomba to fall, climb up, jump onto rim of pirahna plant pipe (you can barely fit while pirahna plant is up), wait for it to be about gone, jump and attempt corner boost on right side of rim bunnyhopping out of it.
-Walk up hill and bunnyhop against bridge into goalpost.

---

Archanfel

2013-06-17 04:43:04 pm

Impassable Foliage is very cool IL for speedrunning. I could not found any sub 1:00 videos on YT and decided to record own video. May be it can be interesting for someone Roll Eyes

Here it is:

---
P.S. I guess, keylie-senpai no more want to do TAS with stars... Sad

... or it is just long rest?

keylie

2013-06-18 02:10:38 am

Quote from Archanfel:

P.S. I guess, keylie-senpai no more want to do TAS with stars... Sad

... or it is just long rest?

For now, it's rest and PhD writing :S

Patashu

Edit history:

Patashu: 2013-06-23 07:30:22 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 07:30:08 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 07:28:10 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 07:14:48 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 07:13:04 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 07:07:05 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 07:04:41 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 07:03:09 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 06:45:18 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 04:13:57 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 04:13:41 am

Patashu: 2013-06-23 02:09:28 am

2013-06-23 01:33:38 am

Still learning the game, currently I'm up to learning the rabbit jump in 4-5 "Movement by Degrees". This jump seems very difficult. It's composed of four dimensions that you need to be accurate in:

1) when you turn around on land left of rabbit (exactly on top of the boy)
2) when you jump toward rabbit (half way between boy and child)
3) when you turn around in mid air (above or a bit before the rabbit)
4) turning forward again when you bounce off of the rabbit (same frame or immediately after)

I was wondering, is this analysis right and are there any tricks/cues you can use to make gettig it simpler? If I know what I mess up I can try rewinding and correcting it, but a simpler setup with less factors to screw up would be desirable.

Also interested in cues/techniques for the curve jump down to the green lever from the green platform in 4-4 "The ground beneath her feet" hard strat. (I currently have no setup for it since I do the turning around in two parts, e.g. hold left release hold left (which raises it from three dimensions to five dimensions: start of jump, velocity at start, turn to left, release left, second hold left), so I just go with gut)

After this is 4-7 "Fickle Companion" hard strat Smiley

I don't want to skip any hard strats unless I absolutely cannot do them consistently. We'll see if world 6 can convince me otherwise, haha

BTW, the world 2 guide I posted a few posts ago will need some revision now that I better understand why the TAS does what it does in terms of where it chooses to bunnyhop, and have rerouted a bit to be more like it.

EDIT: I have cues for a single turn around 'basement jump' in 3-4 'The Ground Beneath her Feet' Cheesy

This should make the trick much easier to understand.

Jump from anywhere in this range with full right velocity:

Change from right to left here:

The turnaround must be done exactly here or you fail. I think this is the only precise part of the trick. Meaning, this trick has only one dimension in which you must be precise and it is a lot easier now ^^

Also do not despair if Tim gets stuck on the corner, hold left and you should reach the lever still.

---

Here's another cue - for A Tingling, the jump onto where the platform will be - you want to make it jumping from exactly this X co-ordinate, as it is the highest point of terrain (as determined by using the level editor - put -editor as a command line argument and then use F11 then ctrl+i, then hide invisible and toggle visibility)

Still learning the game, currently I'm up to learning the rabbit jump in 4-5 "Movement by Degrees". This jump seems very difficult. It's composed of four dimensions that you need to be accurate in:

1) when you turn around on land left of rabbit (exactly on top of the boy)
2) when you jump toward rabbit (half way between boy and child)
3) when you turn around in mid air (above or a bit before the rabbit)
4) turning forward again when you bounce off of the rabbit (same frame or immediately after)

I was wondering, is this analysis right and are there any tricks/cues you can use to make gettig it simpler? If I know what I mess up I can try rewinding and correcting it, but a simpler setup with less factors to screw up would be desirable.

Also interested in cues/techniques for the curve jump down to the green lever from the green platform in 4-4 "The ground beneath her feet" hard strat. (I currently have no setup for it since I do the turning around in two parts, e.g. hold left release hold left (which raises it from three dimensions to five dimensions: start of jump, velocity at start, turn to left, release left, second hold left), so I just go with gut)

After this is 4-7 "Fickle Companion" hard strat :) I don't want to skip any hard strats unless I absolutely cannot do them consistently. We'll see if world 6 can convince me otherwise, haha

BTW, the world 2 guide I posted a few posts ago will need some revision now that I better understand why the TAS does what it does in terms of where it chooses to bunnyhop, and have rerouted a bit to be more like it.

EDIT: I have cues for a single turn around 'basement jump' in 3-4 'The Ground Beneath her Feet' :D This should make the trick much easier to understand.

Jump from anywhere in this range with full right velocity:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/gIJCMN7.jpg?1[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/fqmXj3m.jpg[/img]

Change from right to left here:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Iaj5dhf.jpg[/img]
The turnaround must be done exactly here or you fail. I think this is the only precise part of the trick. Meaning, this trick has only one dimension in which you must be precise and it is a lot easier now ^^

Also do not despair if Tim gets stuck on the corner, hold left and you should reach the lever still.

---

Here's another cue - for A Tingling, the jump onto where the platform will be - you want to make it jumping from exactly this X co-ordinate, as it is the highest point of terrain (as determined by using the level editor - put -editor as a command line argument and then use F11 then ctrl+i, then hide invisible and toggle visibility)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/rGUfRLK.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/tL1MWEW.jpg[/img]

Patashu

Edit history:

Patashu: 2013-06-24 07:44:12 am

Patashu: 2013-06-24 07:37:43 am

Patashu: 2013-06-24 07:21:33 am

Patashu: 2013-06-24 07:21:07 am

2013-06-24 07:19:42 am

Some more cues
To get the overhead bunnyhop when exiting the mines in 3-6 'Irreversible' please jump here:

(I may make pictures for cues of other notable bunnyhop/corner boost locations)

To get the 'SMW jump' in 4-3 'Just Out of Reach' where you unflip the switch by jumping above it with no goomba assistance:
Perform an airjump and turn right on the same frame OR one frame after. Two or more frames after and you fall down. Even jump 2nd frame - turn around 4th frame makes you fall down!
The airjump should be initiated on the 2-5th airjumpable animation frame (= frame where Tim is depicted falling).
Also, the turning around must be on the 5th airjumpable animation frame or sooner. jump 5th turn around 6th is too late for example, but jump 5th turn around 5th works.
Tested on PC version.
I call it the SMW jump because it's like the jumps SMW players do on small platforms to get running speed, making a wide V/U shape with their jumps.

To 'frame advance' during a rewind, smash your fingers down on Up and Down key such that one is very slightly lower, so either both buttons register slightly or one registers barely on the frame before (= one frame advance). I don't know how to frame advance on a game pad but maybe a similar technique can be used.

I tried to come up with a technique where instead of doing an SMW jump you fall down onto the goomba and bounce back onto the platform - then it would not matter where on the switch it was pulled. But it required turning around in a 1 frame window so it was way less consistent.

And, here is one set of cues for a successful Rabbit jump (I will explore what cues to aim for to get the highest consistency): http://imgur.com/a/YfRUI

Some more cues
To get the overhead bunnyhop when exiting the mines in 3-6 'Irreversible' please jump here:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/QYO8xoc.jpg[/img]
(I may make pictures for cues of other notable bunnyhop/corner boost locations)

To get the 'SMW jump' in 4-3 'Just Out of Reach' where you unflip the switch by jumping above it with no goomba assistance:
Perform an airjump and turn right on the same frame OR one frame after. Two or more frames after and you fall down. Even jump 2nd frame - turn around 4th frame makes you fall down!
The airjump should be initiated on the 2-5th airjumpable animation frame (= frame where Tim is depicted falling).
Also, the turning around must be on the 5th airjumpable animation frame or sooner. jump 5th turn around 6th is too late for example, but jump 5th turn around 5th works.
Tested on PC version.
I call it the SMW jump because it's like the jumps SMW players do on small platforms to get running speed, making a wide V/U shape with their jumps.

To 'frame advance' during a rewind, smash your fingers down on Up and Down key such that one is very slightly lower, so either both buttons register slightly or one registers barely on the frame before (= one frame advance). I don't know how to frame advance on a game pad but maybe a similar technique can be used.

I tried to come up with a technique where instead of doing an SMW jump you fall down onto the goomba and bounce back onto the platform - then it would not matter where on the switch it was pulled. But it required turning around in a 1 frame window so it was way less consistent.

And, here is one set of cues for a successful Rabbit jump (I will explore what cues to aim for to get the highest consistency): http://imgur.com/a/YfRUI

P-why

2013-06-24 08:37:40 am

Quote from Patashu:

3) when you turn around in mid air (above or a bit before the rabbit)
4) turning forward again when you bounce off of the rabbit (same frame or immediately after)

4) is actually wrong, and when I look at your http://imgur.com/a/YfRUI, I think that the rabbit is very far to the left, and you can have a better rabbit skip. The timing for turning forward again is a bit before you actually touch the rabbit > because what defines if you'll kill the rabbit or not is NOT the directions you're pressing, but if Tim is moving to the right or to the left. Anyway, your other visual cues are good and you're on good pace to make a good run Wink

but really, the rabbit skip will be much easier if you press forward a bit before touching the rabbit. Your muscles just have to memorise the timing Smiley

Patashu

Edit history:

Patashu: 2013-06-25 07:38:38 am

2013-06-24 03:09:35 pm

Ok, I'll try that. I remember turning forward before landing on the rabbit killing him a lot in practice but this was before I decided to develop strong cues for everything else about the jump.

EDIT: I am getting the rabbit jump a lot now. Where you turn around seems to be less important compared to the other things: turning around a certain amount after the jump and then turning right again such that you tap the nose just barely moving left. If I mess up the rabbit jump I can usually change when I swapped from moving left to moving right once and get it. I may be done learning this trick soon Smiley

Patashu

2013-06-27 08:21:14 am

Hey P-why, I need help getting the 4-7 "Fickle Companion" pro strat to be consistent. The main thing I am having trouble with, atm, is getting the green goomba to stick to the moving platform when I rewind the first time. What is your timing, what are your cues, what do you look for, how often do you get it, etc.

P-why

2013-06-27 08:48:49 am

Quote from Patashu:

Hey P-why, I need help getting the 4-7 "Fickle Companion" pro strat to be consistent. The main thing I am having trouble with, atm, is getting the green goomba to stick to the moving platform when I rewind the first time. What is your timing, what are your cues, what do you look for, how often do you get it, etc.

To get the goomba back on the platform, I don't use any special cue, it's just a matter of timing. The thing I use is rewind x4 and not x8 (though it's possible, it's less consistant to me). I get it 95% of the time now.
What I do is I rush from the beginning of the stage, so I'm sure I get the right timing. Kanban likes to stop a little bit before reaching the goomba. I just uploaded a video for you, here it is :

Maybe you'll find your own cues (since the video is in 720p, you're supposed to be able to see the graphics details Tongue

)

Anyway, if you have any other questions, please ask them Smiley

Patashu

Edit history:

Patashu: 2013-06-27 03:04:06 pm

Patashu: 2013-06-27 03:02:58 pm

2013-06-27 03:00:54 pm

Hmm, ok, I will just have to try to do the exact same thing every time, if that works for you so often. Thanks

My only other question atm is whether swapping to a mechanical keyboard would improve my play or not. From my research I want blue switches else brown I think, so I'm looking at http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional/
Or should I get one with PS/2 like http://www.rosewill.com/products/1611/ProductDetail_Overview.htm ?

keylie

2013-06-28 03:43:06 am

Quote from P-why:

To get the goomba back on the platform, I don't use any special cue, it's just a matter of timing. The thing I use is rewind x4 and not x8 (though it's possible, it's less consistant to me). I get it 95% of the time now.

Some info from a TASer: there is a difference between -4x and -8x. If the goomba is at the same height as the platform, on the left of it, then when rewinding in -4x the platform pushed the goomba to the left (what I do in the TAS). If rewinding in -8x, the platform pushed the goomba below it or over it. So it's more difficult to get the goomba to the lever if rewinding in -8x.

P-why

Edit history:

P-why: 2013-06-28 05:21:01 am

2013-06-28 03:48:46 am

Quote from Patashu:

My only other question atm is whether swapping to a mechanical keyboard would improve my play or not. From my research I want blue switches else brown I think, so I'm looking at http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional/
Or should I get one with PS/2 like http://www.rosewill.com/products/1611/ProductDetail_Overview.htm ?

I play with an Xbox360 pad, I can't play with keyboard, so I cannot advise you, sorry Smiley

Quote from keylie:

Some info from a TASer: there is a difference between -4x and -8x. If the goomba is at the same height as the platform, on the left of it, then when rewinding in -4x the platform pushed the goomba to the left (what I do in the TAS). If rewinding in -8x, the platform pushed the goomba below it or over it. So it's more difficult to get the goomba to the lever if rewinding in -8x.

Oh that's why it's not consistant then Cheesy

Thanks for the info!
@Patashu > Timing to rewind is pretty natural I guess... Once I've jumped below the goomba, I almost instantly press "rewind" and -2/-4 pretty fast. That's my timing... but I think you just have to find your way to do it Smiley

[quote="Patashu"]My only other question atm is whether swapping to a mechanical keyboard would improve my play or not. From my research I want blue switches else brown I think, so I'm looking at http://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional/
Or should I get one with PS/2 like http://www.rosewill.com/products/1611/ProductDetail_Overview.htm ?[/quote]
I play with an Xbox360 pad, I can't play with keyboard, so I cannot advise you, sorry :)

[quote="keylie"]
Some info from a TASer: there is a difference between -4x and -8x. If the goomba is at the same height as the platform, on the left of it, then when rewinding in -4x the platform pushed the goomba to the left (what I do in the TAS). If rewinding in -8x, the platform pushed the goomba below it or over it. So it's more difficult to get the goomba to the lever if rewinding in -8x.[/quote]
Oh that's why it's not consistant then :D Thanks for the info!
@Patashu > Timing to rewind is pretty natural I guess... Once I've jumped below the goomba, I almost instantly press "rewind" and -2/-4 pretty fast. That's my timing... but I think you just have to find your way to do it :)

Patashu

Edit history:

Patashu: 2013-06-28 06:48:19 am

Patashu: 2013-06-28 06:44:09 am

Patashu: 2013-06-28 05:53:15 am

Patashu: 2013-06-28 05:38:31 am

2013-06-28 05:37:18 am

It looks like there are two strategies for aiming the first rewind:

1) wait a consistent amount such that the goomba is falling down onto the platform
2) your strat, where you rewind quite early and catch the goomba as he is rising

atm 1) makes more sense to me, but I'll see if I can learn 2) because it seems like it should be faster. Either way I understand the problem now, thank you very much! I also need to practice making sure the first rewind lands left of the lever not on it (or else the goomba can kill you or you can leave the lever set in your past and accidentally un-unset it after second rewind). I'm happy this can be consistent Smiley

Unrelatedly, in 4-3 'Just out of Reach' I am having a lot of trouble making the SMW jump (rise upleft, fall downright, no goomba bounce) to unset the lever consistent. I timed a good bounce on the goomba and it loses only 0.5 seconds (and also isn't dependent on how good your lever pull was) so I will do that instead for now.

EDIT: And now I realize how important pausing while lending the key to the goomba during phase 1 is. If you pause while moving full speed left and with your key as far out to your right as possible, you both make the goomba get the key without wasting rewind time later, safely AND when you release rewind you are already moving at full speed so he can't catch up to you. It's a huge part of making this consistent and I missed it until just now. Thanks again Smiley

EDIT 2: Consistent + if I mess up I know exactly what I did wrong. Thank you.

EDIT 3: Another thing. When going from phase 1 to phase 2, instead of airjumping off the platform just fall off and make a jump from the ground, then you never screw up the airjump Smiley

It looks like there are two strategies for aiming the first rewind:

1) wait a consistent amount such that the goomba is falling down onto the platform
2) your strat, where you rewind quite early and catch the goomba as he is rising

atm 1) makes more sense to me, but I'll see if I can learn 2) because it seems like it should be faster. Either way I understand the problem now, thank you very much! I also need to practice making sure the first rewind lands left of the lever not on it (or else the goomba can kill you or you can leave the lever set in your past and accidentally un-unset it after second rewind). I'm happy this can be consistent :)

Unrelatedly, in 4-3 'Just out of Reach' I am having a lot of trouble making the SMW jump (rise upleft, fall downright, no goomba bounce) to unset the lever consistent. I timed a good bounce on the goomba and it loses only 0.5 seconds (and also isn't dependent on how good your lever pull was) so I will do that instead for now.

EDIT: And now I realize how important pausing while lending the key to the goomba during phase 1 is. If you pause while moving full speed left and with your key as far out to your right as possible, you both make the goomba get the key without wasting rewind time later, safely AND when you release rewind you are already moving at full speed so he can't catch up to you. It's a huge part of making this consistent and I missed it until just now. Thanks again :)

EDIT 2: Consistent + if I mess up I know exactly what I did wrong. Thank you.

EDIT 3: Another thing. When going from phase 1 to phase 2, instead of airjumping off the platform just fall off and make a jump from the ground, then you never screw up the airjump :)