Legend of Dragoon (Speed Run)

2014-08-19 01:02:06 am

We require more minerals

Yeah, I know that it can miss. It's a low chance but it happens. Also I'm curious how you ran out of charm potions as early as Zenebatos, but I guess I'll get there. You should be able to even have a few charm potions left over going into the moon. (I was going to if I ever got around to re-routing disc 4 at least.)

Honestly I've only ever seen it happen once in a lot of testing. I don't remember off the top of my head where the Spectral Flash is, but one of the reasons I use Night Raid is it's a shorter animation than the other items. So if you think you can get away with less healing (I'm very certain you can even if things go poorly) then go for it.

JimmyJamma15

2014-08-19 02:39:11 am

I have since changed the number of charm potions I buy from Flentz (before Aglis) to 12. I use all of them up then once I run out I just throw the PBX like you do. I think I took more healing items on the run you are looking at which is a waste since nothing is really threatening. I should be able to get out of Aglis with 1 charm potion left. Which means I take 2ish encounters at Zenebatos. I take a random encounter on the Queen Fury because there is a chance to encounter a rare monster which is really easy to run away from which leaves me with one more charm potion for Aglis.

The spectral flash is right when you land at the divine tree. I just feel like I can't run the game that far without having a back up plan if the PBX misses Archangel. I haven't tested the damage (Trans light vs Night Raid) on Archangel. I know single target does deal more damage but I believe Archangel is light element which might put the night raid over the top. So basically I would still buy 18 Trans lights before I leave for the moon (this number I have changed since my completed run) but take one less healing item (which I am leaning towards a Breeze since I could just use Meru's DRG magic if I get in a rough spot during Melbu).

Also, I tested out Harpoon as you suggested. Rod Typoon isn't needed for Drake which will save me time even if he is a jerk. Your suggestion on using Tbolts for all of the forced fights at the Prison will save quite a bit of time as well. I don't have any actual numbers for the time save here but by just playing it feels like a decent amount (maybe a minute or two?). I also tested Harpoon on Jiango and this is what I come up with:

Sachet on Lavtiz's first turn then Harpoon on his next turn guard if he somehow gets a 3rd turn
Dart complete Volcano unless Jiango is sleeping then throw one Spinning Gale followed by 2x Volcanos (So overall Dart 2x Volcano and 1x Spinning Gale...the order depends on when Lavitz's turn occurs).
Have Rose throw 3 Spinning Gale

The damage differential between GoWD and Harpoon doesn't matter with this strat and I would be saving time since Harpoon is nice and quick. Using GoWD also doesn't save any turns either with my current strat of having Dart throw a Spinning Gale. So ultimately, it would just be better to use harpoon instead of GoWD or Rod Typhoon.

I also did some testing on the Frugal 2 fight using Harpoon. This fight, as well, seems like I can use Harpoon instead of Rod Typhoon/GoWD. I haven't done much testing on this yet though so I don't want to confirm this at this time.

I timed Harpoon vs GoWD and, on average, Harpoon is 5.2 seconds faster. I started a timer from when I started the action of the addition and ended it when the character began speaking the name of the addition. I didn't count counter attack additions because they take longer. I know that it is difficult to time this exactly, however, I simply wanted some numbers to see how much time I would save over GoWD. I also timed Volcano using the same method and on average a completed volcano takes 6.6 seconds. These ball park numbers probably aren't relevant since it is completely obvious that Harpoon is faster than Rod Typhoon or GoWD. But hey, the more we know never really hurts, right? :p

I also double checked to make sure that with the increased number of failed volcanos that I do (Prison 1 with odd turn order RNG, arena, Kazas, I might be forgetting somewhere else too) that I still have level 3 volcano for the extra damage on Doel. I have figured that the extra damage from level 3 volcano on doel will save at least 1 turn in phase 2 of the Doel fight. One turn can really make a difference time wise. This turn, however, could be completely negated if Doel decides to do more Dragoon additions than other stuff which would allow Haschel (who is my utility party member for this fight) attack more often. Time wise Doel can go really well or really poorly depending on what attacks he chooses to use. I have had fights where he only got one turn in phase one (I am assuming that would be the best turn order). Which made my overall time for the fight about 20 seconds faster since normally he gets 2-3 turns before we move on to phase 2.

So the plan is to continue to work on Frugal 2 while using Harpoon and doing some guard testing in Kazas (failed additions, when to menu to equip gear and additions before Kongol 2).

I have since changed the number of charm potions I buy from Flentz (before Aglis) to 12.  I use all of them up then once I run out I just throw the PBX like you do.  I think I took more healing items on the run you are looking at which is a waste since nothing is really threatening. I should be able to get out of Aglis with 1 charm potion left. Which means I take 2ish encounters at Zenebatos. I take a random encounter on the Queen Fury because there is a chance to encounter a rare monster which is really easy to run away from which leaves me with one more charm potion for Aglis.

The spectral flash is right when you land at the divine tree.  I just feel like I can't run the game that far without having a back up plan if the PBX misses Archangel.  I haven't tested the damage (Trans light vs Night Raid) on Archangel.  I know single target does deal more damage but I believe Archangel is light element which might put the night raid over the top.  So basically I would still buy 18 Trans lights before I leave for the moon (this number I have changed since my completed run) but take one less healing item (which I am leaning towards a Breeze since I could just use Meru's DRG magic if I get in a rough spot during Melbu).

Also, I tested out Harpoon as you suggested. Rod Typoon isn't needed for Drake which will save me time even if he is a jerk.  Your suggestion on using Tbolts for all of the forced fights at the Prison will save quite a bit of time as well. I don't have any actual numbers for the time save here but by just playing it feels like a decent amount (maybe a minute or two?).  I also tested Harpoon on Jiango and this is what I come up with:

Sachet on Lavtiz's first turn then Harpoon on his next turn guard if he somehow gets a 3rd turn
Dart complete Volcano unless Jiango is sleeping then throw one Spinning Gale followed by 2x Volcanos (So overall Dart 2x Volcano and 1x Spinning Gale...the order depends on when Lavitz's turn occurs).
Have Rose throw 3 Spinning Gale

The damage differential between GoWD and Harpoon doesn't matter with this strat and I would be saving time since Harpoon is nice and quick.  Using GoWD also doesn't save any turns either with my current strat of having Dart throw a Spinning Gale.  So ultimately, it would just be better to use harpoon instead of GoWD or Rod Typhoon.

I also did some testing on the Frugal 2 fight using Harpoon. This fight, as well, seems like I can use Harpoon instead of Rod Typhoon/GoWD.  I haven't done much testing on this yet though so I don't want to confirm this at this time.

I timed Harpoon vs GoWD and, on average, Harpoon is 5.2 seconds faster.  I started a timer from when I started the action of the addition and ended it when the character began speaking the name of the addition.  I didn't count counter attack additions because they take longer.  I know that it is difficult to time this exactly, however, I simply wanted some numbers to see how much time I would save over GoWD. I also timed Volcano using the same method and on average a completed volcano takes 6.6 seconds. These ball park numbers probably aren't relevant since it is completely obvious that Harpoon is faster than Rod Typhoon or GoWD. But hey, the more we know never really hurts, right? :p

I also double checked to make sure that with the increased number of failed volcanos that I do (Prison 1 with odd turn order RNG, arena, Kazas, I might be forgetting somewhere else too) that I still have level 3 volcano for the extra damage on Doel.  I have figured that the extra damage from level 3 volcano on doel will save at least 1 turn in phase 2 of the Doel fight.  One turn can really make a difference time wise.  This turn, however, could be completely negated if Doel decides to do more Dragoon additions than other stuff which would allow Haschel (who is my utility party member for this fight) attack more often.  Time wise Doel can go really well or really poorly depending on what attacks he chooses to use.  I have  had fights where he only got one turn in phase one (I am assuming that would be the best turn order). Which made my overall time for the fight about 20 seconds faster since normally he gets 2-3 turns before we move on to phase 2.

So the plan is to continue to work on Frugal 2 while using Harpoon and doing some guard testing in Kazas (failed additions, when to menu to equip gear and additions before Kongol 2).

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2014-09-05 10:36:46 pm

The2012Robot: 2014-09-05 10:36:17 pm

2014-09-05 08:40:25 pm

I run for fun :)

I was without internet for a month and came back to a (mostly) nice surprise! The thread is alive! ...Although it wasn't brought back in the way I would expect. But it is nice to see some TLoD discussions again. I don't have time to post my usual novel at the moment... but wow at that DeathTome guy. It does inspire me to actually put some time into a run to prove that my route is more than just words on a screen. For the ones asking for a written route online, mine has been posted for some time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZS6tJg9JMl0pqHId3_eyNq_p92okbC1Eh_K1dgxSOiM/edit

Oh, and if anyone has been using my guide for any reason, I'd love to hear some criticism, or hear what helped you. I look forward to discussing things soon. Maybe even see some people on stream Smiley

http://www.twitch.tv/the2012robot

JimmyJamma15

2014-09-06 12:14:33 pm

Welcome back 2012Robot!

Have you updated any of your notes at all? Reading through that document things seem fairly outdated. Are you still sold that Albert strats are the way to go?

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2014-09-06 01:14:21 pm

2014-09-06 12:51:47 pm

I run for fun :)

Not being defensive, just wanting feedback--which parts appear out of date so that we can discuss them? Questions welcome for anything of course. If Haschel doesn't yield more wasted turns than Albert, then Haschel is faster, but not by much...unless Haschel is required to get like a minute lower time on Melbu. Lowest I have gotten with Albert is like a 36 37. Not sure. Melbu time isn't only about how many attacks he gets in before you down him, but what attacks he chooses to do. What I should do is watch Raelcun's 35 (think that's what it was) and try to replicate what he does exactly and see what time I get and factor in what attacks Melbu does to see how much of the time was up to chance. I do remember Raelcun saying something to the effect that it's not a hard time to get. Could be remembering wrong.

Going to stream some TLoD sometime after 5pm PST tonight btw.

JimmyJamma15

Edit history:

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-06 02:17:08 pm

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-06 02:12:14 pm

2014-09-06 02:05:34 pm

There has been quite a few people doing runs with varying strats somewhat recently which is mainly why I asked if you have found anything to update that guide of yours.

Granted, I haven't practiced throwing all the attack items like you have in your notes but it seems like a waste of time for some bosses to throw so many and guard with Dart/Haschel/Albert. The Greham fight, you probably give Greham 2 maybe even 3 more turns by throwing only Meteor Fall with Rose. All of Greham's attack animations are pretty long. Your Frugal 2 fight is super risky since you leave Guftas alive instead of instantly killing him with a Total Vanishing. His confuse ray can really screw things up and possibly cause a reset. The second Kongol fight you throw 3 Spinning Gale and have everyone else guard. This gives Kongol a chance at really doing damage to your party. Looking at the Doel fight, what is the point of switching Haschel in for Albert since according to your notes (unless I am missing something) you have them guard and have Rose do all the work. I know that Haschel takes significantly less damage from Doel's Thunder attacks but if you're using Albert you might as well continue that "glass cannon" feel and have him GoWD Doel as much as he can. It would probably save you a few turns overall.

Like I said, I haven't really tested using all those magic attack items but it seems like wasted time by mashing nearly everything to 224 instead of spending 6.5ish seconds using a Volcano or like 3 seconds using a Harpoon. I should time magic attack items to see how long they run but it feels like 1 magic attack item would be about the same as a Volcano + Harpoon. Just comparing how your boss strats are against mine, it seems like you give them far more turns than I do. I am slowly working on typing up my notes into a google doc but I have had completed runs done on my twitch.tv/JimmyJamma15 channel. I, too, plan on streaming today to practice new strats in preparation for another full run attempt.

EDIT: Just threw a couple Burn Outs and timed them. It takes a little over 11 seconds to complete it. I started a timer when the character goes through the throwing animation until the damage number appears.

EDIT: I should point out I have really only analyzed your disc one strats.

There has been quite a few people doing runs with varying strats somewhat recently which is mainly why I asked if you have found anything to update that guide of yours.

Granted, I haven't practiced throwing all the attack items like you have in your notes but it seems like a waste of time for some bosses to throw so many and guard with Dart/Haschel/Albert.  The Greham fight, you probably give Greham 2 maybe even 3 more turns by throwing only Meteor Fall with Rose.  All of Greham's attack animations are pretty long. Your Frugal 2 fight is super risky since you leave Guftas alive instead of instantly killing him with a Total Vanishing.  His confuse ray can really screw things up and possibly cause a reset. The second Kongol fight you throw 3 Spinning Gale and have everyone else guard.  This gives Kongol a chance at really doing damage to your party.  Looking at the Doel fight, what is the point of switching Haschel in for Albert since according to your notes (unless I am missing something) you have them guard and have Rose do all the work. I know that Haschel takes significantly less damage from Doel's Thunder attacks but if you're using Albert you might as well continue that "glass cannon" feel and have him GoWD Doel as much as he can. It would probably save you a few turns overall.

Like I said, I haven't really tested using all those magic attack items but it seems like wasted time by mashing nearly everything to 224 instead of spending 6.5ish seconds using a Volcano or like 3 seconds using a Harpoon. I should time magic attack items to see how long they run but it feels like 1 magic attack item would be about the same as a Volcano + Harpoon.   Just comparing how your boss strats are against mine, it seems like you give them far more turns than I do.  I am slowly working on typing up my notes into a google doc but I have had completed runs done on my twitch.tv/JimmyJamma15 channel.  I, too, plan on streaming today to practice new strats in preparation for another full run attempt.

EDIT: Just threw a couple Burn Outs and timed them.  It takes a little over 11 seconds to complete it.  I started a timer when the character goes through the throwing animation until the damage number appears.

EDIT: I should point out I have really only analyzed your disc one strats.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2014-09-06 07:13:33 pm

2014-09-06 03:32:57 pm

I run for fun :)

Defending for whatever reason usually yields more turns for your characters. I have tested every boss thoroughly and trust me, or better yet, test it for yourself--magic does so much damage that using additions is slower in many cases.

For Greham, I experimented with Pellets. It just wasn't as fast no matter how I did it. Could be bad luck, but it frees up inventory space I think anyways.

Found the extra Total Vanishing recently. Still need to incorporate it into my route. Thank you for reminding me.

You should come chill on my stream later so I can explain everything.

EDIT: I never use Albert and Haschel at the same time. I really need to make some videos for "proof of speed" Tongue

Should have a long time ago.

JimmyJamma15

Edit history:

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-06 07:21:32 pm

2014-09-06 07:20:32 pm

It is obvious that magic attack items will yield more damage but for the inventory slot, gold, boss turn, and time it might not be worth it. Like I said, I haven't tested throwing a whole lot because I think my time now with my new strats is going to be pretty solid. As for guarding, it seems it yields more turns for the character that guards, not the character that isn't. Which means you're just wasting more turns.

Albert's speed isn't the only thing that is a problem. His magic defense is certainly an issue as well. Unless you get god RNG he is probably going to be dying quite a bit post disc 1. Even if you're relying on Dart to be more of a support character then you're missing out on more dps overall. Like I said, there aren't a whole lot of boss fights were I have to do a lot of healing (because Haschel can dps well and tank perfectly fine also). The major ones I can think of are Grand Jewel and Llyod. Mainly just Llyod. I can imagine having to do a lot of healing/reviving with Albert. The healing items animation is long and it gets longer once you get Healing Rain/Fog. Angel's Prayer isn't very short either.

It is obvious that magic attack items will yield more damage but for the inventory slot, gold, boss turn, and time it might not be worth it.  Like I said, I haven't tested throwing a whole lot because I think my time now with my new strats is going to be pretty solid.  As for guarding, it seems it yields more turns for the character that guards, not the character that isn't.  Which means you're just wasting more turns.

Albert's speed isn't the only thing that is a problem.  His magic defense is certainly an issue as well.  Unless you get god RNG he is probably going to be dying quite a bit post disc 1.  Even if you're relying on Dart to be more of a support character then you're missing out on more dps overall.  Like I said, there aren't a whole lot of boss fights were I have to do a lot of healing (because Haschel can dps well and tank perfectly fine also).  The major ones I can think of are Grand Jewel and Llyod.  Mainly just Llyod.  I can imagine having to do a lot of healing/reviving with Albert.  The healing items animation is long and it gets longer once you get Healing Rain/Fog.  Angel's Prayer isn't very short either.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2014-09-07 12:34:38 pm

2014-09-06 07:35:35 pm

I run for fun :)

I have tested my route multiple times all the way through. Albert dying isn't a problem. Lloyd is a piece of cake. Sorry for the short response. Busy at the moment.

EDIT: To clarify, Albert hardly ever dies, if at all.

The2012Robot

2014-09-07 07:09:28 pm

I run for fun :)

Going to stream soon. Link in previous post on this page. I'm going to follow anyone that runs this game and doesn't mind me looking over their shoulder Wink

So if you don't, leave a link because I don't know who everyone is!

JimmyJamma15

2014-09-07 07:10:31 pm

Rereading your notes and previous posts on this thread. You haven't updated anything at all from Raelcun's previous suggestions. I watched your most recent broadcast of TLoD stuff and was surprised how differently you go about things within the first 38ish minutes. I wish you provided a little more insight as to why you do some of the things you do. Some things you do seem like a waste of time and gold. Since you didn't stream very long recently I don't have much to go off of.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2014-09-16 11:49:26 am

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2014-09-10 04:25:17 am

I run for fun :)

So I got the SS Disc 1 WR (3:28:01). Wasn't hard to get. Even made around 4 minutes of mistakes. Enjoyed watching Jimmy's run a couple nights ago. Examined every boss up to Fruegal and compared our times and strategies. I did not watch between bosses because it was late when I started to analyze them. I might just leave you to that (my route is online for you to see where our runs differ outside of battles. We can discuss them). Oh, and I timed the battles correctly- I left out the battle transitions and ended on the moment your party does a victory pose. Probably should have ended on last hit, now that I think about it... oh well. The time between last hitting and victory poses is nearly identical on both of our consoles, and on emulator.

Hellena: Double turns thrown aside, best times (with first turns):

Without CP (getting Spark Net'ed)- 39
With CP- 37
Without CP (no Spark Net)- 35

I take the route that doesn't require an extra CP.

Your second battle was 38 seconds slower. You do make a mistake, but I kill them in less turns by not using one for a CP, so I think it's safe to say my route would nearly always be faster here. I'm assuming you use a CP to get Lavitz to lower health so that he might die against Fruegal. The difference between an average run against Urubolos without an extra Shana level vs. one with, is 46 seconds when you count the 3 seconds it takes to equip the Bastard Sword early (I didn't in my now "old" strategy). If you spend more than 43 seconds trying to get Lavitz killed, you're wasting time.

Your 3rd battle was optimal. I used an HP (my route called for it), and seeing your time made me realize just how much time it costs in the end- 12 seconds! Guess I was still making assumptions when I was that early in planning. It does make me wonder what other assumptions I may have made without thinking or testing. Using an HP from the menu is actually faster than using one in battle.

4th battle went well for both of us- no Spark Nets, and we both got 1 turn before the enemy. Mine was about 12 seconds faster.

5th battle- well... mine was 46 seconds faster. You didn't make a mistake. You got attacked by entire enemy team first, then got 2 SNs. I got 1 first turn (Lavitz) and 1 SN. This one is harder to compare to mine, but it does highlight the risk of using CPs to lower Lavitz's health- this one battle negated the reason to use CPs here in the first place.

Fruegal is harder to compare, because this battle is longer than the previous ones, and I know you had bad RNG. But here's what I noticed- first phase with 2 guards is nearly identical. Volcano + Harpoon = 12 = 1 SN. Except it takes you 3 turns to kill them versus my 2, and you have to count the time between turns as well. My second phase with seniors is 7 seconds slower (yes, I accounted for your mistake) and uses 6 turns while you use 5, but I my enemies got 2 more turns--before my 5 turn, meaning one of us got lucky or unlucky, so I think this part needs extra evidence to determine the best strategy. Our strategy is the same for the rest of it, but obviously you ended up having to heal. I'm not sure if you would have had to heal if you didn't make the mistake on the 2nd senior, but I must point out that health isn't a problem when you're defending so much.

After seeing how close our times were between me using so much magic and you not so much, I was honestly very surprised. I expected my route to easily take the cake... which brings me to an important point for me. I caught some of the things you were saying about my route earlier on. You told people not to even bother reading it. I'll be honest--this really pissed me off. Not only because you were essentially bashing the work that I have put so much time into, but because you clearly didn't test my route yourself--you told people to stay away from my guide based on your own assumptions of what was faster... seriously. You said, and I quote, "don't read his notes, honestly. His notes are really, really bad advice". You make other assumptions as well. Like that Albert must die a lot or that I have to use a lot of healing items to keep him alive, and that emulator is faster than PS2. The latter is wrong (I already said that I tested load times, but I'll admit I need a video for evidence), and I can't compare how much you heal with Haschel versus my Albert because I haven't seen anything of yours past disc 1. But no, Albert doesn't need as much baby-sitting as everyone seems to think, which I'm pretty sure I have also explained. I'm not blowing smoke up your ass.

That line about encouraging people to not read my notes though, even if some of it is wrong... it did nothing to encourage the progress of the run. I would know--I've gone against it myself. I won't lie--I've been gloating on my stream--it feels good to finally be vindicated and prove I'm not 100% full of shit. And sure, I made broad assumptions that my route was faster than everyone else's. But I never told anyone to just straight up avoid someone else's route.

Anyways, I don't want this to be a downward spiral that kills our spoken cooperation. You seem like a decent enough guy. How about we both just try not to assume as much from now on? On with the notes...

I don't think you need to buy a Sallet. Just pick up the Bandana on your way to Urubolos, then equip Lavitz with it and equip Dart with Lavitz's Sallet. Save money. While we're at it, I never have had trouble with surviving without a Scale Armor. I never go to the equipment shop. That's just something I caught while skimming your run. There might be other places we differ outside of battle (the truly obvious ones being what items we pick up).

Urubolos: Our times are nearly identical even though we used different strategies. I have changed my route to accommodate the Total Vanishings I need for Fruegal. The strategy I came up with, as I said, is 46 seconds slower in total. But my new Fruegal strategy makes my overall run around 47 seconds faster. There were a ton of different areas to consider, but I think I did the math right. I improved on your Fruegal strategy using the same amount of TVs and SGs you did by 16 seconds, defending like I usually do.

Hoax: Everything in Hoax is pretty much identical. Our strategies do not differ until Kongol. You use 3 SFs, 2 Harpoons and 1 Volcano, while I use 4 SFs. We take the same amount of hits from Kongol, but you take the long grabby one over mine. I use an HB at the beginning of the fight to ensure survival. You used an HP on the Elite because of awful RNG. HB is slower. I need to be aware of my health here because I can get away with no healing items on Kongol sometimes. You take less damage using a Scale Armor here, but it would take 26 seconds on your PS1 just to buy it and grab that Star Dust (I won't get into Star Dust because my route doesn't call for them--I will wait and see what you do with them). Using just an HB or HP takes less time.

I know that it's not always left-right-left on the Elite by the way (and I changed my notes to indicate this). It just seems to have a high chance of happening that way... pretty ironic that you were knocking that particular note earlier in the run and got the noted pattern. Not saying that it makes that note right in the slightest, but it is kind of funny.

Villude: Identical strategies on the 1st Virage. My Fire Bird was 32 seconds faster and was only one turn longer just SF'ing and defending. You got attacked 4 times (including the fireballs hitting you), I got attacked 2 times. Since this battle is relatively short and simple, I've timed each attack. Fire Bird did about 22 seconds worth of damage to you, and 15 to me. So even if you got the exact same pattern I did, your run would still be about 25 seconds slower.

Greham: The fastest time I got with MFs after the run was 2:57. Our run times were almost identical clocking in at 3:12. The fastest time with Pellets that I got after the run was 3:03. I'm now using your Pellet strategy because it is the only way I can have enough room for the 2 Total Vanishings, still be safe, and not waste much time.

IT'S 1:30 AM?!?!? ... Oh well.

Drake: This one is a bit iffy. If you had killed him with Lavitz (counted the damage you would have to do- not possible), then you would have been 39 seconds faster. But his healing made your Drake 62 seconds slower. What is your strategy for this boss? Couldn't see the damage you did with Lavitz (dem frame drops), but I'll give you 60 damage. The total would be 1158, with 42 damage left to go. Your magic mashes were already pretty high, so there's no realistic way you could have reached 1200 on that turn. I don't know how often you have a fight where he doesn't heal, but my strategy is extremely consistent. I don't remember it ever actually failing to defeat him before he heals. It works so well because I put an insane amount of time into testing him and knowing when he throws up his wires and when he heals. I honestly don't even remember that information anymore, but the strategy that came out of it is solid. It's even possible to kill him before his bombs hit you.

Arena: 1st guy- 2 Volcanos and 3-slash is optimal. 2nd- Perfect battle for you would have been around 1 second faster than mine. Your mistake cost you 19 seconds over my time. We have identical strategies for the rest of them.

Hellena 2: My Jiango was 16 seconds faster, and even if you didn't get attacked, I still would have been around 10 seconds faster. Just magic and defending. I already covered the Fruegal fight when I was explaining Urubolos. Again, just magic and defending.

OKAY. Done. Feel free to question the work I've done. I changed my route earlier today to accommodate my new Fruegal fight, the HP outside of battle, and I fixed the Sandora Elite. I have to go to bed. Sorry I haven't gotten to Kazas yet.

Recap: Wish I had ran this game a long time ago for proof of quality. Guess I thought people would actually test some of the strategies they found questionable. My emulator is NOT as fast as my PS2 on fast disc speed (still need to prove this to you guys, but I figured you'd lend me some credibility after this post). Every one of my strategies is either nearly identical or faster in time. If you feel like you can dispute them, please do--both of our runs are online. I may have made a mistake somewhere in this process. ALL of my strategies were tested on emulator before console. Hasn't failed me yet. I'm not really upset about what you said anymore. Hope you're still willing to work with me and take me more seriously. GN

Our runs: http://www.twitch.tv/the2012robot/c/5085108
http://www.twitch.tv/jimmyjamma15/b/566367378

EDIT: Found out recently that 3:28:01 wasn't technically the WR. Carnage64 got a 3:23:22, but I've heard he used a pen or highlighter to mash higher percentages. I still plan on skimming over his route, but if he really did use a tool to assist his run, then I was never competing against his time in the first place. Either way, I have the fastest time now- 3:20:?? (don't remember the seconds and forgot to highlight my run, but it's in my past broadcasts. On tablet without Flash so I can't check right now).

So I got the SS Disc 1 WR (3:28:01). Wasn't hard to get. Even made around 4 minutes of mistakes. Enjoyed watching Jimmy's run a couple nights ago. Examined every boss up to Fruegal and compared our times and strategies. I did not watch between bosses because it was late when I started to analyze them. I might just leave you to that (my route is online for you to see where our runs differ outside of battles. We can discuss them). Oh, and I timed the battles correctly- I left out the battle transitions and ended on the moment your party does a victory pose. Probably should have ended on last hit, now that I think about it... oh well. The time between last hitting and victory poses is nearly identical on both of our consoles, and on emulator.

[b]Hellena:[/b]  Double turns thrown aside, best times (with first turns):

Without CP (getting Spark Net'ed)- 39
With CP-                                       37
Without CP (no Spark Net)-            35

I take the route that doesn't require an extra CP.

Your second battle was 38 seconds slower. You do make a mistake, but I kill them in less turns by not using one for a CP, so I think it's safe to say my route would nearly always be faster here. I'm assuming you use a CP to get Lavitz to lower health so that he might die against Fruegal. The difference between an average run against Urubolos without an extra Shana level vs. one with, is 46 seconds when you count the 3 seconds it takes to equip the Bastard Sword early (I didn't in my now "old" strategy). If you spend more than 43 seconds trying to get Lavitz killed, you're wasting time.

Your 3rd battle was optimal. I used an HP (my route called for it), and seeing your time made me realize just how much time it costs in the end- 12 seconds! Guess I was still making assumptions when I was that early in planning. It does make me wonder what other assumptions I may have made without thinking or testing. Using an HP from the menu is actually faster than using one in battle.

4th battle went well for both of us- no Spark Nets, and we both got 1 turn before the enemy. Mine was about 12 seconds faster.

5th battle- well... mine was 46 seconds faster. You didn't make a mistake. You got attacked by entire enemy team first, then got 2 SNs. I got 1 first turn (Lavitz) and 1 SN. This one is harder to compare to mine, but it does highlight the risk of using CPs to lower Lavitz's health- this one battle negated the reason to use CPs here in the first place.

Fruegal is harder to compare, because this battle is longer than the previous ones, and I know you had bad RNG. But here's what I noticed- first phase with 2 guards is nearly identical. Volcano + Harpoon = 12 = 1 SN. Except it takes you 3 turns to kill them versus my 2, and you have to count the time between turns as well. My second phase with seniors is 7 seconds slower (yes, I accounted for your mistake) and uses 6 turns while you use 5, but I my enemies got 2 more turns--before my 5 turn, meaning one of us got lucky or unlucky, so I think this part needs extra evidence to determine the best strategy. Our strategy is the same for the rest of it, but obviously you ended up having to heal. I'm not sure if you would have had to heal if you didn't make the mistake on the 2nd senior, but I must point out that health isn't a problem when you're defending so much.

After seeing how close our times were between me using so much magic and you not so much, I was honestly very surprised. I expected my route to easily take the cake... which brings me to an important point for me. I caught some of the things you were saying about my route earlier on. You told people not to even bother reading it. I'll be honest--this really pissed me off. Not only because you were essentially bashing the work that I have put so much time into, but because you clearly didn't test my route yourself--you told people to stay away from my guide based on your own assumptions of what was faster... seriously. You said, and I quote, "don't read his notes, honestly. His notes are really, really bad advice". You make other assumptions as well. Like that Albert must die a lot or that I have to use a lot of healing items to keep him alive, and that emulator is faster than PS2. The latter is wrong (I already said that I tested load times, but I'll admit I need a video for evidence), and I can't compare how much you heal with Haschel versus my Albert because I haven't seen anything of yours past disc 1. But no, Albert doesn't need as much baby-sitting as everyone seems to think, which I'm pretty sure I have also explained. I'm not blowing smoke up your ass.

That line about encouraging people to not read my notes though, even if some of it is wrong... it did nothing to encourage the progress of the run. I would know--I've gone against it myself. I won't lie--I've been gloating on my stream--it feels good to finally be vindicated and prove I'm not 100% full of shit. And sure, I made broad assumptions that my route was faster than everyone else's. But I never told anyone to just straight up avoid someone else's route.

Anyways, I don't want this to be a downward spiral that kills our spoken cooperation. You seem like a decent enough guy. How about we both just try not to assume as much from now on? On with the notes...

I don't think you need to buy a Sallet. Just pick up the Bandana on your way to Urubolos, then equip Lavitz with it and equip Dart with Lavitz's Sallet. Save money. While we're at it, I never have had trouble with surviving without a Scale Armor. I never go to the equipment shop. That's just something I caught while skimming your run. There might be other places we differ outside of battle (the truly obvious ones being what items we pick up).

[b]Urubolos:[/b]  Our times are nearly identical even though we used different strategies. I have changed my route to accommodate the Total Vanishings I need for Fruegal. The strategy I came up with, as I said, is 46 seconds slower in total. But my new Fruegal strategy makes my overall run around 47 seconds faster. There were a ton of different areas to consider, but I think I did the math right. I improved on your Fruegal strategy using the same amount of TVs and SGs you did by 16 seconds, defending like I usually do.

[b]Hoax:[/b]  Everything in Hoax is pretty much identical. Our strategies do not differ until Kongol. You use 3 SFs, 2 Harpoons and 1 Volcano, while I use 4 SFs. We take the same amount of hits from Kongol, but you take the long grabby one over mine. I use an HB at the beginning of the fight to ensure survival. You used an HP on the Elite because of awful RNG. HB is slower. I need to be aware of my health here because I can get away with no healing items on Kongol sometimes. You take less damage using a Scale Armor here, but it would take 26 seconds on your PS1 just to buy it and grab that Star Dust (I won't get into Star Dust because my route doesn't call for them--I will wait and see what you do with them). Using just an HB or HP takes less time.

I know that it's not always left-right-left on the Elite by the way (and I changed my notes to indicate this). It just seems to have a high chance of happening that way... pretty ironic that you were knocking that particular note earlier in the run and got the noted pattern. Not saying that it makes that note right in the slightest, but it is kind of funny.

[b]Villude:[/b]  Identical strategies on the 1st Virage. My Fire Bird was 32 seconds faster and was only one turn longer just SF'ing and defending. You got attacked 4 times (including the fireballs hitting you), I got attacked 2 times. Since this battle is relatively short and simple, I've timed each attack. Fire Bird did about 22 seconds worth of damage to you, and 15 to me. So even if you got the exact same pattern I did, your run would still be about 25 seconds slower.

[b]Greham:[/b]  The fastest time I got with MFs after the run was 2:57. Our run times were almost identical clocking in at 3:12. The fastest time with Pellets that I got after the run was 3:03. I'm now using your Pellet strategy because it is the only way I can have enough room for the 2 Total Vanishings, still be safe, and not waste much time.

[b]IT'S 1:30 AM?!?!?[/b] ... Oh well.

[b]Drake:[/b]  This one is a bit iffy. If you had killed him with Lavitz (counted the damage you would have to do- not possible), then you would have been 39 seconds faster. But his healing made your Drake 62 seconds slower. What is your strategy for this boss? Couldn't see the damage you did with Lavitz (dem frame drops), but I'll give you 60 damage. The total would be 1158, with 42 damage left to go. Your magic mashes were already pretty high, so there's no realistic way you could have reached 1200 on that turn. I don't know how often you have a fight where he doesn't heal, but my strategy is extremely consistent. I don't remember it ever actually failing to defeat him before he heals. It works so well because I put an insane amount of time into testing him and knowing when he throws up his wires and when he heals. I honestly don't even remember that information anymore, but the strategy that came out of it is solid. It's even possible to kill him before his bombs hit you.

[b]Arena:[/b]  1st guy- 2 Volcanos and 3-slash is optimal. 2nd- Perfect battle for you would have been around 1 second faster than mine. Your mistake cost you 19 seconds over my time. We have identical strategies for the rest of them.

[b]Hellena 2:[/b]  My Jiango was 16 seconds faster, and even if you didn't get attacked, I still would have been around 10 seconds faster. Just magic and defending. I already covered the Fruegal fight when I was explaining Urubolos. Again, just magic and defending.

OKAY. Done. Feel free to question the work I've done. I changed my route earlier today to accommodate my new Fruegal fight, the HP outside of battle, and I fixed the Sandora Elite. I have to go to bed. Sorry I haven't gotten to Kazas yet.

Recap: Wish I had ran this game a long time ago for proof of quality. Guess I thought people would actually test some of the strategies they found questionable. My emulator is NOT as fast as my PS2 on fast disc speed (still need to prove this to you guys, but I figured you'd lend me some credibility after this post). Every one of my strategies is either nearly identical or faster in time. If you feel like you can dispute them, please do--both of our runs are online. I may have made a mistake somewhere in this process. ALL of my strategies were tested on emulator before console. Hasn't failed me yet. I'm not really upset about what you said anymore. Hope you're still willing to work with me and take me more seriously. GN

Our runs: [url]http://www.twitch.tv/the2012robot/c/5085108[/url]
               [url]http://www.twitch.tv/jimmyjamma15/b/566367378[/url]

EDIT:  Found out recently that 3:28:01 wasn't technically the WR. Carnage64 got a 3:23:22, but I've heard he used a pen or highlighter to mash higher percentages. I still plan on skimming over his route, but if he really did use a tool to assist his run, then I was never competing against his time in the first place. Either way, I have the fastest time now- 3:20:?? (don't remember the seconds and forgot to highlight my run, but it's in my past broadcasts. On tablet without Flash so I can't check right now).

JimmyJamma15

Edit history:

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-10 01:09:42 pm

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-10 12:48:47 pm

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-10 12:48:14 pm

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-10 12:48:11 pm

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-10 12:48:10 pm

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-10 12:47:08 pm

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-10 12:45:07 pm

JimmyJamma15: 2014-09-10 12:42:11 pm

2014-09-10 12:41:32 pm

I don't have time to complete respond to everything today because as I am pretty busy. I made quite a bit of mistake pretty much through my entire last disc one run. As I mentioned, I was mainly just doing a run to see about how much time I would save overall with my new strats (Shout outs to Raelcun for the suggestions!!!). Ultimately, it was a derust/testing run. I still believe I can test a few of the earlier fights to make them shorter, as well as equipment optimization.

As far as my comments about your guide goes, you are neglecting that I said you still have things included in it that Raelcun has legitimately corrected and "proved" that what you have listed is not optimal. For example your Sandora Elite fight, if you knew it wasn't always left, right, left then why do you have it listed in your notes still? It goes back to what Raelcun had previously said, why post something for people when you know it isn't optimal or correct and everyone else with experience running this game knows it isn't optimal or correct either. Also, I did say that I tried running with Albert. I mentioned that I simply kept dying from Lenus onward or wasted time healing, reviving, etc. It could be because I didn't have things optimized for those boss fights but just from my brief experience, it seems like Albert is not the way to go. I also mentioned that your route could be something to learn from once you have posted full runs. In addition to that, I also say that anyone who has put enough time into routing this entire game is worth listening to in regards to different strats.

Yes, I did say that your route has to be taken with some form of hesitation and you have every right to be upset with those comments. However, you completely shut out everything else I had to say from there on out in that stream about your route/planning.

I don't have time to complete respond to everything today because as I am pretty busy.  I made quite a bit of mistake pretty much through my entire last disc one run.  As I mentioned, I was mainly just doing a run to see about how much time I would save overall with my new strats (Shout outs to Raelcun for the suggestions!!!).  Ultimately, it was a derust/testing run.  I still believe I can test a few of the earlier fights to make them shorter, as well as equipment optimization.

As far as my comments about your guide goes, you are neglecting that I said you still have things included in it that Raelcun has legitimately corrected and "proved" that what you have listed is not optimal.  For example your Sandora Elite fight, if you knew it wasn't always left, right, left then why do you have it listed in your notes still? It goes back to what Raelcun had previously said, why post something for people when you know it isn't optimal or correct and everyone else with experience running this game knows it isn't optimal or correct either.  Also, I did say that I tried running with Albert.  I mentioned that I simply kept dying from Lenus onward or wasted time healing, reviving, etc.  It could be because I didn't have things optimized for those boss fights but just from my brief experience, it seems like Albert is not the way to go. I also mentioned that your route could be something to learn from once you have posted full runs.  In addition to that, I also say that anyone who has put enough time into routing this entire game is worth listening to in regards to different strats.

Yes, I did say that your route has to be taken with some form of hesitation and you have every right to be upset with those comments. However, you completely shut out everything else I had to say from there on out in that stream about your route/planning.

The2012Robot

2014-09-10 01:50:53 pm

I run for fun :)

Quote:

I made quite a bit of mistake pretty much through my entire last disc one run.

I made sure your mistakes were accounted for in my math. It's true that I could have made a mistake calculating somewhere in there.

Quote:

As far as my comments about your guide goes, you are neglecting that I said you still have things included in it that Raelcun has legitimately corrected and "proved" that what you have listed is not optimal. For example your Sandora Elite fight, if you knew it wasn't always left, right, left then why do you have it listed in your notes still?

What else do you think Raelcun has corrected and "proven" to be faster? All I ever heard were claims that his route had to be faster based on assumptions. Have you had time to read my entire post yet? I said that I changed my notes for him. I had "left-right-left" in there because it was better than nothing. I don't think I even knew that you could tell which model was the real one when I wrote that. Just never got around to changing it.

Quote:

It could be because I didn't have things optimized for those boss fights but just from my brief experience

This. But it's completely fair to point out that you at least "tried" to use him (obviously there's still a TON of game left after this point).

Quote:

I also mentioned that your route could be something to learn from once you have posted full runs. In addition to that, I also say that anyone who has put enough time into routing this entire game is worth listening to in regards to different strats.

This is fair to point out as well, albeit confusingly contradictory to the comment I quoted, but still fair.

Quote:

However, you completely shut out everything else I had to say from there on out in that stream about your route/planning.

This is fair. None of the parts I heard had anything good to say about my route though, and I certainly wasn't in the mood to hear anymore of what you had to say after the quoted comment.
I'm glad we can talk about this, because everything else you said should be accounted for as well. Thank you for pointing that out.

So... do you believe the math I did was correct? You should really do the math for yourself, to confirm or dispute my claims. We also need to see your Fruegal without mistakes because that's one of the only fights where you made a mistake with a different strategy than mine.

[quote]I made quite a bit of mistake pretty much through my entire last disc one run.[/quote]

I made sure your mistakes were accounted for in my math. It's true that I could have made a mistake calculating somewhere in there.

[quote]As far as my comments about your guide goes, you are neglecting that I said you still have things included in it that Raelcun has legitimately corrected and "proved" that what you have listed is not optimal.  For example your Sandora Elite fight, if you knew it wasn't always left, right, left then why do you have it listed in your notes still?[/quote]

What else do you think Raelcun has corrected and "proven" to be faster? All I ever heard were claims that his route had to be faster based on assumptions. Have you had time to read my entire post yet? I said that I changed my notes for him. I had "left-right-left" in there because it was better than nothing. I don't think I even knew that you could tell which model was the real one when I wrote that. Just never got around to changing it.

[quote]It could be because I didn't have things optimized for those boss fights but just from my brief experience[/quote]

This. But it's completely fair to point out that you at least "tried" to use him (obviously there's still a TON of game left after this point).

[quote]I also mentioned that your route could be something to learn from once you have posted full runs.  In addition to that, I also say that anyone who has put enough time into routing this entire game is worth listening to in regards to different strats. [/quote]

This is fair to point out as well, albeit confusingly contradictory to the comment I quoted, but still fair.

[quote]However, you completely shut out everything else I had to say from there on out in that stream about your route/planning. [/quote]

This is fair. None of the parts I heard had anything good to say about my route though, and I certainly wasn't in the mood to hear anymore of what you had to say after the quoted comment.
I'm glad we can talk about this, because everything else you said should be accounted for as well. Thank you for pointing that out.

So... do you believe the math I did was correct? You should really do the math for yourself, to confirm or dispute my claims. We also need to see your Fruegal without mistakes because that's one of the only fights where you made a mistake with a different strategy than mine.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2014-09-15 03:48:24 pm

The2012Robot: 2014-09-10 11:55:36 pm

The2012Robot: 2014-09-10 06:41:25 pm

The2012Robot: 2014-09-10 06:24:21 pm

The2012Robot: 2014-09-10 04:55:15 pm

2014-09-10 04:30:27 pm

I run for fun :)

2nd Kongol: Took only one try to get a 1:16 against Kongol after the run. He only attacked once and used his fastest move. My 2nd Kongol went terribly in my run because I had to use a 3rd SG against Fruegal in my now outdated strategy, so I'll compare your time to my 1:16. You got a 2:10. That's 56 seconds. All of his attacks + your HP puts you at 35 seconds overall (and yes, I'm accounting for the time wasted fiddling with the menu on the HP and subtracting the new calculated time against how long it would have taken you to defend with Dart instead of using his 2nd Volcano. Trust me, I'm serious about counting everything, including your mistakes and bad RNG). He attacked me once for 4 seconds. 35 - 4 = 31. Take our difference in times 56 - 31 = 25. Your run would still be 25 seconds slower if you got my attack pattern with your turn order, and getting my turn order would not make up 25 seconds. My strategy: the usual magic and defending.

Doel: Between both of us, we had the worst RNG I've ever seen on Doel. You were attacked 6 times in phase 1, I was ult'ed 6 times in phase 2. But looking back at it, I find our reactions pretty funny Tongue

Anyways, big difference in strategies on this guy. Yours was 2:10 faster than mine. You used 11 less turns than me. You got 103 seconds of damage. I got 233 seconds of damage. 233 - 103 = 130 seconds difference. I got ult'ed 6 times, you got ult'ed 1 time. I VERY rarely get ult'ed over 3 times. There is 150 seconds difference between 6 and 1. And because he ult'ed so much, I ended up having to use 3 HPs and 1 AP. You used 1 HP and 1 HB. Usually i only have to use 2 HPs. 1 AP = 9 seconds over defending. 1 HB = 11, 1 HP is around 7 seconds. My healing = 30 seconds. Your healing = 18 seconds. 30 - 18 = 12. 162 seconds difference between us now counting just healing and enemy attacks. So let's say I get ult'ed 3 times and only have to heal 2 times. That's 90 + 14 = 104 for me. Going off of your run, 103 + 18 = 121. That's 17 seconds in my favor. But those enemy turns of mine, the ones that wouldn't be ultimates, would still have to be something else, granted I did take more attacks overall than usual in my run. Let's give me 1 extra Thunder Bolt and 2 more lightning sword blasts. That gives me 27 seconds extra, giving you a lead of 10 seconds.

Sorry if all of that is confusing. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if I made a mistake somewhere. Instead of the weak first phase, you could have gotten an extra ult during phase 2, and then I would be ahead. I'm not sure if the Therapy Ring delays Rose's turn slightly, and I've always considered not using it, but I have yet to prove with observation whether it ever saves her life. I also don't know what you might get to mitigate damage from Doel or do extra damage. And with Fruegal being a walk in the park now, I need it even less... so I think we need more Doel vids to truly come to a conclusion on this one.

EDIT: Therapy Ring can't be worth it. Costs around 79 seconds to grab and equip where I do. It's hard to know what I was thinking since I wrote that note about 3 years ago, but obviously I didn't consider that using an AP would be faster if she dies on Doel.

[b]2nd Kongol:[/b]  Took only one try to get a 1:16 against Kongol after the run. He only attacked once and used his fastest move. My 2nd Kongol went terribly in my run because I had to use a 3rd SG against Fruegal in my now outdated strategy, so I'll compare your time to my 1:16. You got a 2:10. That's 56 seconds. All of his attacks + your HP puts you at 35 seconds overall (and yes, I'm accounting for the time wasted fiddling with the menu on the HP and subtracting the new calculated time against how long it would have taken you to defend with Dart instead of using his 2nd Volcano. Trust me, I'm serious about counting everything, including your mistakes and bad RNG). He attacked me once for 4 seconds. 35 - 4 = 31. Take our difference in times 56 - 31 = 25. Your run would still be 25 seconds slower if you got my attack pattern with your turn order, and getting my turn order would not make up 25 seconds. My strategy: the usual magic and defending.

[b]Doel:[/b]  Between both of us, we had the worst RNG I've ever seen on Doel. You were attacked 6 times in phase 1, I was ult'ed 6 times in phase 2. But looking back at it, I find our reactions pretty funny  :P  Anyways, big difference in strategies on this guy. Yours was 2:10 faster than mine. You used 11 less turns than me. You got 103 seconds of damage. I got 233 seconds of damage. 233 - 103 = 130 seconds difference. I got ult'ed 6 times, you got ult'ed 1 time. I VERY rarely get ult'ed over 3 times. There is 150 seconds difference between 6 and 1. And because he ult'ed so much, I ended up having to use 3 HPs and 1 AP. You used 1 HP and 1 HB. Usually i only have to use 2 HPs. 1 AP = 9 seconds over defending. 1 HB = 11, 1 HP is around 7 seconds. My healing = 30 seconds. Your healing = 18 seconds. 30 - 18 = 12. 162 seconds difference between us now counting just healing and enemy attacks. So let's say I get ult'ed 3 times and only have to heal 2 times. That's 90 + 14 = 104 for me. Going off of your run, 103 + 18 = 121. That's 17 seconds in my favor. But those enemy turns of mine, the ones that wouldn't be ultimates, would still have to be something else, granted I did take more attacks overall than usual in my run. Let's give me 1 extra Thunder Bolt and 2 more lightning sword blasts. That gives me 27 seconds extra, giving you a lead of 10 seconds.

Sorry if all of that is confusing. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if I made a mistake somewhere. Instead of the weak first phase, you could have gotten an extra ult during phase 2, and then I would be ahead. I'm not sure if the Therapy Ring delays Rose's turn slightly, and I've always considered not using it, but I have yet to prove with observation whether it ever saves her life. I also don't know what you might get to mitigate damage from Doel or do extra damage. And with Fruegal being a walk in the park now, I need it even less... so I think we need more Doel vids to truly come to a conclusion on this one.

EDIT: Therapy Ring can't be worth it. Costs around 79 seconds to grab and equip where I do. It's hard to know what I was thinking since I wrote that note about 3 years ago, but obviously I didn't consider that using an AP would be faster if she dies on Doel.

Deathtome

Edit history:

Deathtome: 2016-01-30 07:28:20 am

2014-11-04 11:21:47 am

Hi!

So I finished my new Turbo Route with an endtime of 12:00:49. Playstation 2 (Fast Disc Speed).

Could get sub 12 hours, but I will let it go and go all-in for a legit run.

Raelcun Exposed:

I finally found the last needed evidence. If you watch the whole video, it should not be a surprise anymore that Raelcun was using a turbo controller throughout the whole run. If you are interested in knowing the truth, watch this. If you need more evidence, make comparisons with any of his 226-230% mashes with the TAS guy. ;-) Happy Halloween!

Raelcun's Full Run (Part 1):
http://www.twitch.tv/raelcun/c/4938593

Raelcun's Full Run (Part 2):
http://www.twitch.tv/raelcun/c/4938606?t=240m0s

Legend of Dragoon DISC 1 TAS (Turbo Controller ONLY):

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2014-11-04 04:30:33 pm

2014-11-04 12:58:03 pm

All the things

Quote from Deathtome:

I finally found the last needed evidence. If you watch the whole video, it should not be a surprise anymore that Raelcun was using a turbo controller throughout the whole run. If you are interested in knowing the truth, watch this. If you need more evidence, make comparisons with any of his 226-230% mashes with the TAS guy. ;-) Happy Halloween!

I don't see how anything that you claim in the video as evidence is anything more than circumstantial and wishing it to be so. There are many ways to mash that don't involve strain and are vastly more successful than a normal hold. You also just have people who are great at mashing; it's quite jarring when you see it happen in person. The comparison with the turbo controller is basically just saying "yeah, he mashes about as fast as a poorly implemented turbo controller." There is nothing definitive in it at all. Just from watching, my guess is that the rate falls squarely in the 10-11 presses per second range. This matches up with the end percentages, assuming each press is worth 2%. This rate is perfectly achievable by human hands (it's "good" but not "amazing"). To try to claim something about the consistency of the updates you would have to state much more about how the game handles graphical updates. From looking at it, I would say that it handles the number update on a frame rule. This means that every x frames, it will push new data to the PPU to be displayed. This makes sense from a design standpoint so you don't have to constantly poll for new data, and you get a uniform adjustment to the on-screen numbers compared to the rate of presses. I'm not sold on your explanation of lag either, but I don't know enough of how this particular engine handles lag to say anything conclusive. I will say that I find it unlikely for individual lag frames to significantly impact the game's ability to track mashes.

EDIT: Examples of other mashing techniques:

Really though, I'm not sure why you feel the need to go on such a witch hunt at all. Is it that hard to believe somebody can mash relatively fast consistently? It's not like Realcun has tried to hide away in the shadows through all of his work with routing and running this game either. He has no reason to cheat, especially in a game that did not see much or any competition. There's no glory in it; it only has value as a personal project.

You can go on believing whatever you want, but the "evidence" you provide is far from solid in proving anything.

[quote="Deathtome"]
I finally found the last needed evidence. If you watch the whole video, it should not be a surprise anymore that Raelcun was using a turbo controller throughout the whole run. If you are interested in knowing the truth, watch this. If you need more evidence, make comparisons with any of his 226-230% mashes with the TAS guy. ;-) Happy Halloween![/quote]

I don't see how anything that you claim in the video as evidence is anything more than circumstantial and wishing it to be so. There are many ways to mash that don't involve strain and are vastly more successful than a normal hold. You also just have people who are great at mashing; it's quite jarring when you see it happen in person. The comparison with the turbo controller is basically just saying "yeah, he mashes about as fast as a poorly implemented turbo controller." There is nothing definitive in it at all. Just from watching, my guess is that the rate falls squarely in the 10-11 presses per second range. This matches up with the end percentages, assuming each press is worth 2%. This rate is perfectly achievable by human hands (it's "good" but not "amazing"). To try to claim something about the consistency of the updates you would have to state much more about how the game handles graphical updates. From looking at it, I would say that it handles the number update on a frame rule. This means that every x frames, it will push new data to the PPU to be displayed. This makes sense from a design standpoint so you don't have to constantly poll for new data, and you get a uniform adjustment to the on-screen numbers compared to the rate of presses. I'm not sold on your explanation of lag either, but I don't know enough of how this particular engine handles lag to say anything conclusive. I will say that I find it unlikely for individual lag frames to significantly impact the game's ability to track mashes.

EDIT: Examples of other mashing techniques:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t8V5OHpn_0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTr7nSQsm5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciOM2daxIe4

Really though, I'm not sure why you feel the need to go on such a witch hunt at all. Is it that hard to believe somebody can mash relatively fast consistently? It's not like Realcun has tried to hide away in the shadows through all of his work with routing and running this game either. He has no reason to cheat, especially in a game that did not see much or any competition. There's no glory in it; it only has value as a personal project.

You can go on believing whatever you want, but the "evidence" you provide is far from solid in proving anything.

Luzbelheim

2014-11-04 06:02:38 pm

Okay? Okay!

Omnigamer mate, I will tell you this without the intention to discuss with you (but I think it will be inevitable).

From an objective view, there's no relation between your videos about mashing techniques and the video of Raelcun's run.
I only see that you can mash with two fingers, or you can mash doing some weird movement with your fingers and the NES controller, but the fact is that we can see Raelcun's cam the whole run and he doesn't use any of your shown techniques.

About your answer I only can say that there's no more blind that who doesn't want to see.
Frame by frame comparison with a TAS run using turbo and we can see how in 13 hours he gets the same amount of % and the numbers increase at the same speed.
That's all, we don't need more words.

I understand and I will always understand that if Raelcun is your friend you will want to defend him even if all the numbers point to the other side, but there is a point where the arguments become ridiculous and pejorative to the person who you are defending.
At this point, the fact that he used turbo has became and evidence and the argument of his defenders claiming that he didn't use it has became, like you said, as anything more than circumstantial and wishing it to be so.

"Is it that hard to believe somebody can mash relatively fast consistently?"
That's not the problem mate, but you only have to compare the TAS video with his run to see the evidences.
You just have to compare these two statements:
- The fact that he can't get 232% is because in 13 hours of mashing he can't push 1 more time the button while he throws a spell.
- The fact that he can't get 232% is because his turbo is limited, like the TAS turbo run (increasing at the same speed and getting 226%-230% the whole run)
Don't tell me what statement is more likely, we all know what is.

"It's not like Realcun has tried to hide away in the shadows through all of his work with routing and running this game either. He has no reason to cheat, especially in a game that did not see much or any competition. There's no glory in it; it only has value as a personal project."

Yeah mate, I agree with you. He had no reason to cheat and there wasn't glory on beating the game so that's what I don't understand.
When you want to speedrun this game and you study it and then you watch Raelcun's run the first thought you have is: Why the hell is he using turbo?.

I think that precisely and ironically your last words justify the use of turbo controller:
"especially in a game that did not see much or any competition. There's no glory in it; it only has value as a personal project."

That's why he used it. There wasn't competition, there wasn't glory and it was only a personal project, so I guess he was tired of practicing and he decided to use a turbo controller since it was more for fun that for competition.
Now he thinks that it's too late and he negates the use of turbo controller at any cost, but I will tell you something mate:

Rectify is not submission.

I won't judge him for using turbo because I think the ethic and the morality of a person matter more than cheating in a videogame, but to all the people who will defend him and to Raelcun himself I only have to say that the truth always prevails.

Thank you my friends.

Omnigamer mate, I will tell you this without the intention to discuss with you (but I think it will be inevitable).

From an objective view, there's no relation between your videos about mashing techniques and the video of Raelcun's run.
I only see that you can mash with two fingers, or you can mash doing some weird movement with your fingers and the NES controller, but the fact is that we can see Raelcun's cam the whole run and he doesn't use any of your shown techniques.

About your answer I only can say that there's no more blind that who doesn't want to see.
Frame by frame comparison with a TAS run using turbo and we can see how in 13 hours he gets the same amount of % and the numbers increase at the same speed.
That's all, we don't need more words.

I understand and I will always understand that if Raelcun is your friend you will want to defend him even if all the numbers point to the other side, but there is a point where the arguments become ridiculous and pejorative to the person who you are defending.
At this point, the fact that he used turbo has became and evidence and the argument of his defenders claiming that he didn't use it has became, like you said, as anything more than circumstantial and wishing it to be so.

"Is it that hard to believe somebody can mash relatively fast consistently?"
That's not the problem mate, but you only have to compare the TAS video with his run to see the evidences.
You just have to compare these two statements:
- The fact that he can't get 232% is because in 13 hours of mashing he can't push 1 more time the button while he throws a spell.
- The fact that he can't get 232% is because his turbo is limited, like the TAS turbo run (increasing at the same speed and getting 226%-230% the whole run)
Don't tell me what statement is more likely, we all know what is.

"It's not like Realcun has tried to hide away in the shadows through all of his work with routing and running this game either. He has no reason to cheat, especially in a game that did not see much or any competition. There's no glory in it; it only has value as a personal project."

Yeah mate, I agree with you. He had no reason to cheat and there wasn't glory on beating the game so that's what I don't understand.
When you want to speedrun this game and you study it and then you watch Raelcun's run the first thought you have is: Why the hell is he using turbo?.

I think that precisely and ironically your last words justify the use of turbo controller:
"especially in a game that did not see much or any competition. There's no glory in it; it only has value as a personal project."

That's why he used it. There wasn't competition, there wasn't glory and it was only a personal project, so I guess he was tired of practicing and he decided to use a turbo controller since it was more for fun that for competition.
Now he thinks that it's too late and he negates the use of turbo controller at any cost, but I will tell you something mate:

Rectify is not submission.

I won't judge him for using turbo because I think the ethic and the morality of a person matter more than cheating in a videogame, but to all the people who will defend him and to Raelcun himself I only have to say that the truth always prevails.

Thank you my friends.

MURPHAGATOR!

2014-11-04 06:21:12 pm

Terraffirmative!

Any more of this turbo accusation BS discussion is going to be a ban.

JimmyJamma15

Edit history:

JimmyJamma15: 2014-11-05 12:34:39 pm

2014-11-05 12:34:25 pm

Hello all!

I'll be streaming most of today if anyone wants to come by and check out my run! I am doing disc 1 and 2 with my new route. I have made several changes since my first two completed runs. Some of the changes I got from some of the things 2012robot does in his route, others simply by recalculating damage and time taken for various actions. I'm looking to do a full run sometime next week, with the earliest being Sunday. I still have one thing I want to work on during disc 4 but otherwise everything is a go for a full run. I have also switched to PS2 FDS for these runs as well. I am not entirely sure how much time the FDS will save me over the course of the entire run, but I am sure it will make a considerable contribution. I was aiming for a 13:05 with a PS1 time so 12:35 seems somewhat reasonable with PS2 FDS.

twitch.tv/JimmyJamma15

JimmyJamma15

Edit history:

JimmyJamma15: 2014-11-07 08:43:38 am

2014-11-06 11:56:23 pm

After testing the Melbu fight some more, I ended up killing him in 32:13.63. This is by far the fastest I have kill him. I am actually planning on getting one more Trans Light for this fight which can improve the time even more. I have to give Raelcun credit, his strats for Melbu are pretty damn good. I thought my idea was pretty solid but after testing his strats out a few times I got 35:xx.xx, then 34:58.xx, then finally the 32:13.63. Granted, I want to do more testing with this strat while having the extra Trans light. Honestly a sub 31 Melbu is seems quite possible with the extra trans light.

I'll be streaming this testing along with runs of discs 1-2 and possibly 4 once I finish testing Melbu some more. Saturday I intend on dusting off parts of the run where I make silly mistakes and run through disc 3 to rerust that as well. On Sunday, I am hoping to do a full run. Cheesy

Fly

2014-11-07 10:28:52 am

Speedy Rodriguez

Quote from Omnigamer:

EDIT: Examples of other mashing techniques:

Those are all me!

Not sure what this thread is all about, but if it's about what can and can not be done in mashing, here's what I can do.

I have a shooting watch and have done the following.

Just my thumb on one button. 101 in 10 sec.

Single finger/single button 129 in 10 sec.

My NES T&F tech. 2 finger/1 button 238 in 10 sec.

My T&F arcade tech does not work so good on small buttons but I have analyzed some video from arcade play and can keep a pace of 24-28 per sec smoothly. But I top out at 34-38 per sec if I go for all out speed. Useless since games can only handle 30 per sec on a perfect rhythm. Not really possible.

Hec

Omnigamer

2014-11-07 11:12:07 am

All the things

Hi Hector, your mashing techniques are always fun to watch. I brought them up specifically as examples of alternative ways to get good mashing rates and that plenty of methods exist. Keep up the good work!

JimmyJamma15

2014-11-08 02:56:36 pm

Hey everyone!

I am doing a full run this afternoon! I really have no clue what sort of goal time I should set due to the switch to PS2 FDS, so I will just say sub 12:45 is my goal. Most of my resetting will be within the first 50 minutes or so. I will be comparing to my old PS1 time so all the splits should be at least green (I really hope). Wink

twitch.tv/JimmyJamma15 for the fun!!!

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:46:51 am

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:46:34 am

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:46:20 am

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:44:37 am

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:42:49 am

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:42:21 am

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:42:08 am

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:41:37 am

The2012Robot: 2014-11-13 02:40:24 am

2014-11-13 02:38:53 am

I run for fun :)

Hector's videos have proven most useful! I got a 260% earlier. No joke. Unfortunately I wasn't recording at the time because I was just figuring out how to adapt his techniques to a PS2 controller. I spent 20 minutes tonight trying with back-to-back attempts to mash another 260% while recording, but I couldn't... well, half of my footage had to be scrapped because I placed my webcam over the percentages in XSplit and didn't realize it until halfway (and I did get some 250%+, I could tell because 250% starts doing 15 damage). But in the subsequent footage, I did manage to get several 250%s or more, including a 258%. Around 80% or more of my mashes during that time period (8:30) were 240%+, and around 95% were 234%+... And here's the video! Smiley

I think the technique is pretty self-explanatory, at least if you watch Hector's "Track and Field NES Button Mashing Secret Technique". If it's not, just let me know and I'll make a tutorial!