Legend of Dragoon (Speed Run)

2013-02-19 07:41:38 pm

Weegee Time

You know, MetaSigma was saying for the longest time that he couldn't beat 2:40 on Secret of Evermore. Then we found a new strat, then a bug, then a skip, then another skip, and now the target time is a staggeringly low 1:36 with even more things found every week. He could have never made that much advancement on his own and he will freely tell you that.

Post some notes on what you're doing and maybe everyone here can help you knock down those 20 minutes for a sub 12 hour run. I guarantee you your secretiveness is only hurting your run at this point. This is a community; we don't exist to tear each other down. We're all here to help each other become better than we could ever be on our own. Open up a little, I promise we don't bite. Smiley

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-02-19 09:50:29 pm

2013-02-19 08:14:49 pm

We require more minerals

.

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2013-02-19 08:42:54 pm

Rakuen: 2013-02-19 08:34:09 pm

2013-02-19 08:33:35 pm

Weegee Time

That post isn't really helping, Raelcun. Undecided

Raelcun

2013-02-19 09:02:51 pm

We require more minerals

Sorry, as you can tell I'm a slight bit frustrated with him at the moment. What I mean to say was that he has made it explicity clear that he is only doing anything in his power to try and assure he gets to post his run on SDA. That the ends justify the means etc and that he has absolutely no intention of sharing because he doesn't want someone to beat him to it.

ButtersBB

2013-02-20 02:29:18 am

You just don't understand Raelcun. Clearly, there is a huge line of people absolutely frothing at the mouth to belt out a 12:2x run of a game that they aren't even going to touch yet, because they are silently sitting in anticipation to steal all the tech from a dude who is only playing on emulator and refuses to communicate with others, except to brag about his segmented emulator attempts that are somehow totally indicative of what his SS console run will be.

Let's be real here: The2012Robot, even if you do somehow belt out a sub 12:20 SS run and submit it, there is a very big chance it will end up getting rejected due to outside parties figuring out major time savers, which could be avoided if you just WORK WITH OTHERS.

The2012Robot

2013-02-20 04:57:14 am

I run for fun :)

I appreciate all your comments and I understand where you're all coming from. However, I'm not obligated to share anything with you, and there seems to be zero understanding of my point of view on this forum. Can you not understand the determination to reach your goals no matter what? There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing.

If you're frustrated with me because I don't fall into what your view of a "good speed runner" (or whatever) is, then that's your problem. There's nothing wrong with any one here that wants to work as team or be a lone wolf. Being a lone wolf isn't as productive, but I have a better chance at the WR if I don't share. Because as I said- and I'm not backing down from this- TLoD requires more luck than skill when it comes to achieving the fastest time. And that's all it really comes down to. If I were running a game that required more skill, I would almost definitely share my information with you.

Very big chance of major time saving discoveries? I won't rule out said discoveries, but saying there's a very big chance of such discoveries occurring during my run's verification seems a bit exaggerated, even if there's some lurker out there only looking for sequence breaks and other glitches/exploits.

To be honest, the only thing I'd be scared of during a verification would be other TLoD runners that don't respect how I went about getting the run, like Raelcun. I don't really know you, but to me you almost seem like the kind of person who would criticize my run because "it could've been faster"... but hey, I don't know you. I wish I did though- I like your team spirit and your (usually) friendly attitude, as well as your competitiveness. We just don't see eye-to-eye on this.

And again, I'm not bragging about my times. I'm simply updating you guys.

I never said my segmented emulator attempts were "totally indicative" of what my console run will look like. You can use the times to get somewhat of an idea of what the console run could look like though.

I'm kind of curious why Raelcun would even want to work with me at this point. I'm obviously just some reclusive asshole who doesn't play well with others, right? And on top of that, after all this heckling, you guys are still trying to get me to share strategies as if I would somehow WANT to work with him at this point if I were to share anything with anybody... I would, but that's not the point. I stopped being pushy awhile ago, now look who's taken up the reigns.

...I've been thinking about dropping the run lately. This has been mainly due to slight burn out (no pun intended). I could certainly do without the stress, and probably more with the time. Tongue

And I'd just hand over all my notes to Raelcun and help him with his strategies. Just thinking about it makes me feel better... I really just want to be done with this, but as of now, I don't plan on quitting.

To Rakuen, I wish every member of SDA had such a useful thing to say. Your post has done more for your side of the argument than any previously for me. I will say that obviously some of you do bite. Like ButtersBB for instance. Thanks for mocking me Butters- it really encourages me to stick around. But you're not the first one to mock me, and I've seen more than one poster on this site use a negative tone... but that really belongs in a different thread, so I'll leave it appropriately at that.

I appreciate all your comments and I understand where you're all coming from. However, I'm not obligated to share anything with you, and there seems to be zero understanding of my point of view on this forum. Can you not understand the determination to reach your goals no matter what? There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing.

If you're frustrated with me because I don't fall into what your view of a "good speed runner" (or whatever) is, then that's your problem. There's nothing wrong with any one here that wants to work as team or be a lone wolf. Being a lone wolf isn't as productive, but I have a better chance at the WR if I don't share. Because as I said- and I'm not backing down from this- TLoD requires more luck than skill when it comes to achieving the fastest time. And that's all it really comes down to. If I were running a game that required more skill, I would almost definitely share my information with you.

Very big chance of major time saving discoveries? I won't rule out said discoveries, but saying there's a very big chance of such discoveries occurring during my run's verification seems a bit exaggerated, even if there's some lurker out there only looking for sequence breaks and other glitches/exploits.

To be honest, the only thing I'd be scared of during a verification would be other TLoD runners that don't respect how I went about getting the run, like Raelcun. I don't really know you, but to me you almost seem like the kind of person who would criticize my run because "it could've been faster"... but hey, I don't know you. I wish I did though- I like your team spirit and your (usually) friendly attitude, as well as your competitiveness. We just don't see eye-to-eye on this.

And again, I'm not bragging about my times. I'm simply updating you guys.

I never said my segmented emulator attempts were "totally indicative" of what my console run will look like. You can use the times to get somewhat of an idea of what the console run could look like though.

I'm kind of curious why Raelcun would even want to work with me at this point. I'm obviously just some reclusive asshole who doesn't play well with others, right? And on top of that, after all this heckling, you guys are still trying to get me to share strategies as if I would somehow WANT to work with him at this point if I were to share anything with anybody... I would, but that's not the point. I stopped being pushy awhile ago, now look who's taken up the reigns.

...I've been thinking about dropping the run lately. This has been mainly due to slight burn out (no pun intended). I could certainly do without the stress, and probably more with the time. :P  And I'd just hand over all my notes to Raelcun and help him with his strategies. Just thinking about it makes me feel better... I really just want to be done with this, but as of now, I don't plan on quitting.

To Rakuen, I wish every member of SDA had such a useful thing to say. Your post has done more for your side of the argument than any previously for me. I will say that obviously some of you do bite. Like ButtersBB for instance. Thanks for mocking me Butters- it really encourages me to stick around. But you're not the first one to mock me, and I've seen more than one poster on this site use a negative tone... but that really belongs in a different thread, so I'll leave it appropriately at that.

TengEng

2013-02-20 07:49:33 am

Whatever, just do it quickly.

Actually, the frustration is probably that you aren't acting like a community member and you still manage to use the LoD speedrun thread like a personal blog.

We could care a bit more that you're doing run, but since you are choosing to be secretive, no point in sharing. At this point, I don't know if anyone cares to keep tabs on the times you're getting on emulator, if you need to take a break, you have great determination, or any other speedrun process related mumble jumble. Good luck on the run. Talk about it when you're DONE.

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-02-20 05:07:11 pm

Raelcun: 2013-02-20 05:06:04 pm

Raelcun: 2013-02-20 05:04:45 pm

2013-02-20 05:04:06 pm

We require more minerals

Quote:

Being a lone wolf isn't as productive

I don't have to add anything to this at all

Quote:

TLoD requires more luck than skill when it comes to achieving the fastest time.

I still disagree with you on this, TLoD requires less luck than almost every other RPG I know of to speedrun and other RP speedrunners cooperate to find time savers and push their time further. Included in this are usually a bunch of viewers who are willing to test things and help out and aren't interested in running the game themselves. Xenir I know is one of those guys who has helped me test small things in the past as well as plenty of other people who have expressed zero interest in actually running the game.

Quote:

To be honest, the only thing I'd be scared of during a verification would be other TLoD runners that don't respect how I went about getting the run, like Raelcun. I don't really know you, but to me you almost seem like the kind of person who would criticize my run because "it could've been faster"

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here, but if you miss an obvious time saver because you weren't sharing your strategies you're going to get criticized by every verifier not just me. Verifiers don't rag on someone just because it could have been faster that's not how verification is supposed to work. When verifying you only point out obvious mistakes, sloppy execution and major time savers that were completely missed. If you come up with a decent run and I'm verifying it I'll call it as such.

Quote:

You can use the times to get somewhat of an idea of what the console run could look like though.

No, we really can't. PS1/PS2 emulation is nowhere near accurate in comparison to the console as other emulators. They're way more CPU dependent than other emulators and run on variable speeds from computer to computer. Add onto that the fact that TLoD does not emulate well and needs some serious tweaking to run properly, and we have absolutely no frame of reference to compare the times you're posting to console times. Emulator is fine for practice, but once you start talking about actual times you really need to be on console.

Quote:

I'm kind of curious why Raelcun would even want to work with me at this point. I'm obviously just some reclusive asshole who doesn't play well with others, right?

Do you think I would still be posting right now if I didn't? Pretending to be the victim here won't help.

Quote:

And on top of that, after all this heckling, you guys are still trying to get me to share strategies as if I would somehow WANT to work with him at this point if I were to share anything with anybody...

I have not encouraged anyone to heckle you in this thread and I don't particularly like the fact that you're implying that I did. SDA is a community and the planning threads are usually used as such. You are getting negative reactions because the SDA members are not used to someone coming in and posting about all of this and straight up refusing to share information while at the same time seeking attention from their posts.

Quote:

...I've been thinking about dropping the run lately. This has been mainly due to slight burn out (no pun intended). I could certainly do without the stress, and probably more with the time. Tongue And I'd just hand over all my notes to Raelcun and help him with his strategies.

This is the opposite of what we want to happen. Again you're crying out for attention with posts like this, but you're already getting tons of attention. If you want less stress, then either stick with your "I'm not sharing anything" plan and don't share ANYTHING that means stop sharing all of your updates on emulator times and post updates only when you start console practice, or actually start sharing information. You're trying to keep everything secret, while posting updates and expecting praise. It doesn't work that way, if you want to hold everything back and keep it to yourself, then keep EVERYTHING to yourself you can't do both and expect no stress.

[quote] Being a lone wolf isn't as productive[/quote]
I don't have to add anything to this at all

[quote] TLoD requires more luck than skill when it comes to achieving the fastest time.[/quote]
I still disagree with you on this, TLoD requires less luck than almost every other RPG I know of to speedrun and other RP speedrunners cooperate to find time savers and push their time further. Included in this are usually a bunch of viewers who are willing to test things and help out and aren't interested in running the game themselves. Xenir I know is one of those guys who has helped me test small things in the past as well as plenty of other people who have expressed zero interest in actually running the game.

[quote]To be honest, the only thing I'd be scared of during a verification would be other TLoD runners that don't respect how I went about getting the run, like Raelcun. I don't really know you, but to me you almost seem like the kind of person who would criticize my run because "it could've been faster"[/quote]
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here, but if you miss an obvious time saver because you weren't sharing your strategies you're going to get criticized by every verifier not just me. Verifiers don't rag on someone just because it could have been faster that's not how verification is supposed to work. When verifying you only point out obvious mistakes, sloppy execution and major time savers that were completely missed. If you come up with a decent run and I'm verifying it I'll call it as such.

[quote]You can use the times to get somewhat of an idea of what the console run could look like though.[/quote]
No, we really can't. PS1/PS2 emulation is nowhere near accurate in comparison to the console as other emulators. They're way more CPU dependent than other emulators and run on variable speeds from computer to computer. Add onto that the fact that TLoD does not emulate well and needs some serious tweaking to run properly, and we have absolutely no frame of reference to compare the times you're posting to console times. Emulator is fine for practice, but once you start talking about actual times you really need to be on console.

[quote]I'm kind of curious why Raelcun would even want to work with me at this point. I'm obviously just some reclusive asshole who doesn't play well with others, right?[/quote]
Do you think I would still be posting right now if I didn't? Pretending to be the victim here won't help.

[quote]And on top of that, after all this heckling, you guys are still trying to get me to share strategies as if I would somehow WANT to work with him at this point if I were to share anything with anybody...[/quote]
I have not encouraged anyone to heckle you in this thread and I don't particularly like the fact that you're implying that I did. SDA is a community and the planning threads are usually used as such. You are getting negative reactions because the SDA members are not used to someone coming in and posting about all of this and straight up refusing to share information while at the same time seeking attention from their posts.

[quote]...I've been thinking about dropping the run lately. This has been mainly due to slight burn out (no pun intended). I could certainly do without the stress, and probably more with the time. Tongue  And I'd just hand over all my notes to Raelcun and help him with his strategies.[/quote]
This is the opposite of what we want to happen. Again you're crying out for attention with posts like this, but you're already getting tons of attention. If you want less stress, then either stick with your "I'm not sharing anything" plan and don't share ANYTHING that means stop sharing all of your updates on emulator times and post updates only when you start console practice, or actually start sharing information. You're trying to keep everything secret, while posting updates and expecting praise. It doesn't work that way, if you want to hold everything back and keep it to yourself, then keep EVERYTHING to yourself you can't do both and expect no stress.

garik16

2013-02-20 07:57:35 pm

Robot, I know nothing about this game. I'm attempting to run a JRPG on the PS1 right now, which nobody else appears to be interested in running. And you know what? That makes me sad. Because it means that as I'm going through the game, segment by segment, I have no one to contribute strategies to help me. I'm still posting in my forum thread here in hopes that someone else may pick it up, but so far no good. And that sucks. Already I missed a trick I could've used earlier to save some time, because I've had to do it all on my own.

You HAVE at least one other person here who's trying to run this game. Take advantage of that - share strategies! You'd be surprised how helpful it is.

And hell, you can be competitive and share at the same time. FunkDoc and Dxtr have been running Batman for the last month, each trying to get the WR and to prevent the other from taking it back. But the two have been sharing strats (and racing) with each other and multiple others, and have each benefitted greatly because of it. This hasn't stopped them from trying to beat the other at getting lower and lower.

You worry about verification. Well take a look at the verification index and look at the the games that were rejected. Most of the time rejection occurs because a player doesn't use strategies that are well known time savers, and thus is inefficient. Why would you want to chance that?

Robot, I know nothing about this game.  I'm attempting to run a JRPG on the PS1 right now, which nobody else appears to be interested in running.  And you know what?  That makes me sad.  Because it means that as I'm going through the game, segment by segment, I have no one to contribute strategies to help me.  I'm still posting in my forum thread here in hopes that someone else may pick it up, but so far no good.  And that sucks.  Already I missed a trick I could've used earlier to save some time, because I've had to do it all on my own.

You HAVE at least one other person here who's trying to run this game.  Take advantage of that - share strategies!  You'd be surprised how helpful it is.

And hell, you can be competitive and share at the same time.  FunkDoc and Dxtr have been running Batman for the last month, each trying to get the WR and to prevent the other from taking it back.  But the two have been sharing strats (and racing) with each other and multiple others, and have each benefitted greatly because of it.  This hasn't stopped them from trying to beat the other at getting lower and lower.

You worry about verification.  Well take a look at the verification index and look at the the games that were rejected.  Most of the time rejection occurs because a player doesn't use strategies that are well known time savers, and thus is inefficient.  Why would you want to chance that?

The2012Robot

2013-02-21 12:35:25 am

I run for fun :)

Regardless of how TLoD's luck factor compares to other RPGs, I still believe it has enough of a luck factor for the WR to be taken by anyone with chance on their side.

In regards to verification, I was implying that someone might sabotage it. It's a ridiculous thought, but it comes to mind anyway. Good to hear you say you'd treat my run fairly.

PS1 emulation... I still believe it's somewhat of a reliable time. But I can't prove anything right now.

I'm not "pretending" to be anything. I was saying in an admittedly indirect way that you may just be trying to win an argument at this point.

I wasn't implying that you're encouraging people to heckle me. Those are your words, not mine. And I'm not seeking attention- my goal from the start was just to inform... didn't I already say that? But whatever. Believe what you want.

*sigh* Crying for attention... whatever you want to believe, Raelcun. I was simply letting you know what's going on with me through all this. I'm actually a very open person. I'll tell my life's story uncensored to anyone that asks, if they have the time. So it has 100% to do with that, not attention. I wanted to let you know that this argument is playing a part in killing this run for me. So with all that information, please deduce that I also don't expect any praise.

Using this thread like a personal blog? lol Almost every post I've made on here has been about running TLoD. Give me a break. And with that break, I'll use the time to beat Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. Very fun game.

While I still don't believe I'm doing anything wrong by sharing what I feel like sharing, I will stop posting until I have an actual attempt just to get you guys off my back. I'm glad this issue is getting more posts on a regular basis so that this can be resolved (whatever that comes down to) as soon as possible.

Regardless of how TLoD's luck factor compares to other RPGs, I still believe it has enough of a luck factor for the WR to be taken by anyone with chance on their side.

In regards to verification, I was implying that someone might sabotage it. It's a ridiculous thought, but it comes to mind anyway. Good to hear you say you'd treat my run fairly.

PS1 emulation... I still believe it's somewhat of a reliable time. But I can't prove anything right now.

I'm not "pretending" to be anything. I was saying in an admittedly indirect way that you may just be trying to win an argument at this point.

I wasn't implying that you're encouraging people to heckle me. Those are your words, not mine. And I'm not seeking attention- my goal from the start was just to inform... didn't I already say that? But whatever. Believe what you want.

*sigh* Crying for attention... whatever you want to believe, Raelcun. I was simply letting you know what's going on with me through all this. I'm actually a very open person. I'll tell my life's story uncensored to anyone that asks, if they have the time. So it has 100% to do with that, not attention. I wanted to let you know that this argument is playing a part in killing this run for me. So with all that information, please deduce that I also don't expect any praise.

Using this thread like a personal blog? lol  Almost every post I've made on here has been about running TLoD. Give me a break. And with that break, I'll use the time to beat Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. Very fun game.

While I still don't believe I'm doing anything wrong by sharing what I feel like sharing, I will stop posting until I have an actual attempt just to get you guys off my back. I'm glad this issue is getting more posts on a regular basis so that this can be resolved (whatever that comes down to) as soon as possible.

Rakuen

2013-02-21 03:19:36 pm

Weegee Time

The2012Robot, I'm going to teach you something really, really important. Something you're going to use for the rest of your life. Intentions mean nothing. Perception is everything. You may think you're doing one thing but it can come off to others in an entirely different way. I didn't enter this discussion to judge the rightness of one side or the other here. I'm not going to tell you to stop posting either; strictly speaking you're right and you're not doing anything wrong. I'm simply going to ask you think about what you post and consider how it will contribute to the community. And while I'm addressing you, you know what? That goes for every person who's posting in this thread as well, including myself.

The2012Robot

2013-02-21 04:18:17 pm

I run for fun :)

I can tell you're a smart guy, Rakuen. Perspective and perception is everything. I can try to convince people that there perception of me is wrong, but I can't make them believe what I tell them. Now that I've said some things more than once, I don't feel like I have to try to defend myself from people's assumptions. I know I was doing one thing, but I didn't expect people to see it an entirely different way. How am I to know what people's perception of what I'm doing is going to be? I don't blame these people for their perspectives- I can see where anyone is coming from 99% of the time. So I'm usually pretty good at it. My problem is that I state things in ways that can create foreign perceptions, leaving me partly in the position I'm in now. But there are two sides to this coin. People assume a lot in these forums (in my experience), and letting some of these assumptions be known isn't necessary or constructive. For instance the assumption that I'm crying for attention with my posts. Who does Raelcun help by stating that? Nobody but himself. It's an insult from my perspective. I won't deny that I've done the same type of thing in the past, I'm just trying to explain my point of view here. But like Raelcun is wrong in his assumptions, I could be wrong in mine.

I honestly thought my posts containing my emulator times were useful because they let people who have higher times know that they still have room to improve. But people here believe those times mean nothing. I can't really change that, but I'll respect it. So as I said before, I won't post anymore TLoD times unless they were achieved on console. Very well put, Rakuen. You guys can still try convince me to share if you want, I'd just ask you to respect that doing this mostly on my own is more satisfactory for me.

I can tell you're a smart guy, Rakuen. Perspective and perception is everything. I can try to convince people that there perception of me is wrong, but I can't make them believe what I tell them. Now that I've said some things more than once, I don't feel like I have to try to defend myself from people's assumptions. I know I was doing one thing, but I didn't expect people to see it an entirely different way. How am I to know what people's perception of what I'm doing is going to be? I don't blame these people for their perspectives- I can see where anyone is coming from 99% of the time. So I'm usually pretty good at it. My problem is that I state things in ways that can create foreign perceptions, leaving me partly in the position I'm in now. But there are two sides to this coin. People assume a lot in these forums (in my experience), and letting some of these assumptions be known isn't necessary or constructive. For instance the assumption that I'm crying for attention with my posts. Who does Raelcun help by stating that? Nobody but himself. It's an insult from my perspective. I won't deny that I've done the same type of thing in the past, I'm just trying to explain my point of view here. But like Raelcun is wrong in his assumptions, I could be wrong in mine.

I honestly thought my posts containing my emulator times were useful because they let people who have higher times know that they still have room to improve. But people here believe those times mean nothing. I can't really change that, but I'll respect it. So as I said before, I won't post anymore TLoD times unless they were achieved on console. Very well put, Rakuen. You guys can still try convince me to share if you want, I'd just ask you to respect that doing this mostly on my own is more satisfactory for me.

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2013-02-21 04:46:25 pm

2013-02-21 04:45:16 pm

Weegee Time

Posting a lower time can be helpful to let people know there's faster routes out there. However, telling a person in a dark room they might trip over something is also helpful. Do you see the point? Maybe there's a way to turn this situation on its head a bit. You don't want to directly give out your routing and such, I get that. But if someone were to come on this thread with a problem, maybe you could offer a little assistance? Not necessarily smack them upside the noggin with the answer, but give them a little push in the right direction. In this way you could contribute a little more without totally undermining your reasons for doing this run.

That said, I want to assure you, doing it for yourself and on your own is fine if that's what you really want. We've all got our own reasons and goals for speedrunning. Smiley

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-02-21 05:42:38 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-02-21 05:24:55 pm

2013-02-21 05:07:43 pm

I run for fun :)

I do see your point, to an extent. I think I've said it before (maybe not on here), but I'm completely willing to help people who have specific questions. I just haven't had anybody ask me anything yet. It's hard for me to ignore questions. Like if you asked me what's the fastest way I have for getting through occupied Fletz, I would tell you. To be honest, there are probably a couple strategies that I won't reveal because they pertain to a bigger overall strategy. That's a very small part of the game though.

Edit: Aha! People aren't asking me anything because they don't expect me to share anything! I get it.

Rakuen

2013-02-21 05:57:38 pm

Weegee Time

Quote from The2012Robot:

Edit: Aha! People aren't asking me anything because they don't expect me to share anything! I get it.

Winnah, winnah, chickehn dinnah! Smiley

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-02-21 06:31:33 pm

2013-02-21 06:12:38 pm

I run for fun :)

Maybe, just maybe, I'll make a compilation video of the areas in the game that require a little more precise movement, like in occupied Fletz, the garbage disposal, and the phantom ship... wait, this is one of those posts that isn't really helpful, isn't it? Well, I hope it builds a little interest at least.

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2013-02-21 06:29:12 pm

2013-02-21 06:27:27 pm

Weegee Time

Awesome, glad to hear it! I look forward to seeing it should you decide to make it. Smiley

ButtersBB

2013-02-21 06:57:30 pm

Alright, I'll be a bit more diplomatic.

The2012Robot: Why use Albert?

Don't get me wrong, I like Albert. Hell, I want it to be faster with Albert since he's my favorite character in this game. However, Raelcun has given pretty concise reasoning as to why Haschel is faster.

So, is there any particular reasoning you have for why using Albert is more beneficial?

If someone submitted an awesome run of FF8 that primarily used Zell's limit, no matter how groundbreaking their strats, I would have to reject that run due to the fact that there is no argument that Squall and Irvine are faster. Likewise, if Haschel is clearly a superior pick, than I would have no choice but to reject your run for such an obvious oversight..

Let's be clear on something: SDA is nowhere near as vindictive as you might think. I've met loads of dudes here personally, and they are good people. However, when it comes to verification, this is a straight up meritocracy. In an RPG run, even if it's just a minute or two, choosing a sub-optimal character is huge, and the verifiers will realize that. Please convince me that picking Albert has certain merits.

Alright, I'll be a bit more diplomatic.

The2012Robot: Why use Albert?

Don't get me wrong, I like Albert. Hell, I want it to be faster with Albert since he's my favorite character in this game. However, Raelcun has given pretty concise reasoning as to why Haschel is faster.

So, is there any particular reasoning you have for why using Albert is more beneficial?

If someone submitted an awesome run of FF8 that primarily used Zell's limit, no matter how groundbreaking their strats, I would have to reject that run due to the fact that there is no argument that Squall and Irvine are faster. Likewise, if Haschel is clearly a superior pick, than I would have no choice but to reject your run for such an obvious oversight..

Let's be clear on something: SDA is nowhere near as vindictive as you might think. I've met loads of dudes here personally, and they are good people. However, when it comes to verification, this is a straight up meritocracy. In an RPG run, even if it's just a minute or two, choosing a sub-optimal character is huge, and the verifiers will realize that. Please convince me that picking Albert has certain merits.

The2012Robot

2013-02-21 09:06:17 pm

I run for fun :)

I'm still using Albert because he does more damage in general when there's no grinding involved, and he has Rose Storm which is useful for staying alive against Melbu. He does have lower speed, so you could argue that Haschel puts out more damage over the same period of time. But I believe that may not matter and I'll try to explain why as best as I can.

It has to do with luck and how the battle system works, and also my strategies for the fastest times. A lot of bosses have <=50 speed. So by having a character with 50 or more speed, you have a higher and higher chance that your character will go turn for turn with those bosses. But it's chance- a particular character will not always get a turn after the boss'. A good example is Lenus- even with Meru in the party with a Bandit's Ring Albert, Lenus can still get 2 turns in a row. After each character's turn, there is a chance that the enemy will get a turn. So I also believe that it's possible for a character to steal another character's turn. This can slow down my strategies because a good amount of my boss fights don't count on additions, and most of the one's that do have only a couple at most. By using a lower speed character, I believe I may be giving other characters more turns as a result, which is especially important for Rose and Meru because of my strategies. Albert gets less than 40 additions in up until the final boss- most of those are from just a couple of battles that require his additions for speed. At that point, and I could be wrong because I haven't tested Haschel much, but I'm guessing that Albert's attacks are strong enough to make up for the speed disadvantage.

So that's why I haven't made the switch.

I'm still using Albert because he does more damage in general when there's no grinding involved, and he has Rose Storm which is useful for staying alive against Melbu. He does have lower speed, so you could argue that Haschel puts out more damage over the same period of time. But I believe that may not matter and I'll try to explain why as best as I can.

It has to do with luck and how the battle system works, and also my strategies for the fastest times. A lot of bosses have <=50 speed. So by having a character with 50 or more speed, you have a higher and higher chance that your character will go turn for turn with those bosses. But it's chance- a particular character will not always get a turn after the boss'. A good example is Lenus- even with Meru in the party with a Bandit's Ring Albert, Lenus can still get 2 turns in a row. After each character's turn, there is a chance that the enemy will get a turn. So I also believe that it's possible for a character to steal another character's turn. This can slow down my strategies because a good amount of my boss fights don't count on additions, and most of the one's that do have only a couple at most. By using a lower speed character, I believe I may be giving other characters more turns as a result, which is especially important for Rose and Meru because of my strategies. Albert gets less than 40 additions in up until the final boss- most of those are from just a couple of battles that require his additions for speed. At that point, and I could be wrong because I haven't tested Haschel much, but I'm guessing that Albert's attacks are strong enough to make up for the speed disadvantage.

So that's why I haven't made the switch.

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-02-22 05:07:36 am

Raelcun: 2013-02-22 05:02:04 am

Raelcun: 2013-02-22 04:49:14 am

Raelcun: 2013-02-22 04:45:37 am

2013-02-22 04:40:55 am

We require more minerals

Almost that entire explanation of Albert's low speed resulting in others getting more turns can be explained with confirmation bias. I'm 99.9% certain that is not how the game works at all, at several points I have had characters with 180 speed and bosses never get turns between. Other high speed characters will get turns during their super speed 3 turn sections, but never the boss. I've had parties of three characters with 90 speed and they all take two turns between boss turns consistently.

You do not get a set number of turns between bosses, and bosses do not have a random chance of taking a turn whenever the hell they feel like it. I'm aware that you cannot actually watch my stream that often because of your internet but frequently during practice I can predict the order of turns during a boss fight accurately because I've spent enough time practicing to recognize the speed of the boss and how the speed stat with my characters are interacting with it. The speed stat would be pretty much useless besides determining what order your characters go in if bosses could just randomly take turns whenever they felt like it. The way that turn order is generated at the start of the fight can make it feel as if they're doing this at times, but after enough time you learn to recognize certain turn patterns occur consistently.

Using a slower character just means they get less turns throughout the game total, it does not in any way affect the other characters except for the fact that having two female characters means you have a limited number of speed items and vice versa.

The problem with your entire post is it relies upon an untested theory that goes against the way the game works, and an untested assumption. If you were worried about negative verifier responses, those are two things that tend to create them.

Almost that entire explanation of Albert's low speed resulting in others getting more turns can be explained with confirmation bias. I'm 99.9% certain that is not how the game works at all, at several points I have had characters with 180 speed and bosses never get turns between. Other high speed characters will get turns during their super speed 3 turn sections, but never the boss. I've had parties of three characters with 90 speed and they all take two turns between boss turns consistently.

You do not get a set number of turns between bosses, and bosses do not have a random chance of taking a turn whenever the hell they feel like it. I'm aware that you cannot actually watch my stream that often because of your internet but frequently during practice I can predict the order of turns during a boss fight accurately because I've spent enough time practicing to recognize the speed of the boss and how the speed stat with my characters are interacting with it. The speed stat would be pretty much useless besides determining what order your characters go in if bosses could just randomly take turns whenever they felt like it. The way that turn order is generated at the start of the fight can make it feel as if they're doing this at times, but after enough time you learn to recognize certain turn patterns occur consistently.

Using a slower character just means they get less turns throughout the game total, it does not in any way affect the other characters except for the fact that having two female characters means you have a limited number of speed items and vice versa.

The problem with your entire post is it relies upon an untested theory that goes against the way the game works, and an untested assumption. If you were worried about negative verifier responses, those are two things that tend to create them.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-02-22 07:01:30 am

The2012Robot: 2013-02-22 06:57:16 am

2013-02-22 06:42:37 am

I run for fun :)

I don't really know how to respond to that... How do you explain when bosses get 2 turns in a row? Have you really never seen Meru not get a turn after a boss'? Can YOU prove that the battle system works the way you've described? ...Regardless if it does, it doesn't change the fact that I hardly use any additions, so the amount of turns Haschel/Albert gets hardly matters to me. So assuming I use the same strategies for both Haschel and Albert, Albert would be faster because he would take less useless turns.

The speed stat wouldn't be useless if I'm right- it would affect turn-chance mid-battle. There would be a higher chance related to your speed that your character would go instead of the boss.

I too have done a lot of practice, obviously, but we've come to different conclusions. I'd love to hear you explain why bosses get double turns sometimes and why Meru doesn't always get a turn. Honestly.

Rakuen

2013-02-22 07:00:44 am

Weegee Time

If someone sat there in debug mode and mapped out memory addresses then they could prove the speed stat and/or the turn order works a certain way. Otherwise your best bet for learning mechanics is to test it for yourself and compare results with others. That's what Raelcun's saying. The fact you haven't tested Haschel much means you don't know for sure that Albert is the better character for the party. Maybe try playing with the other character for a bit and see if you can devise some new strategies. Conversely, Raelcun could try using Albert a bit if he hasn't already to see if the change does indeed slow him down considerably.

I wonder if there could be some random jitter in the turn calculations to cause such disparate results. In that case playing on an emulator could really jack with the entropy and give seemingly random turn orders at high level play depending on how the game's RNG works.
I also wonder there's a way to set characters up so the same relative ratio of effective player turns to boss turns would stay the same for either character. I know Albert is slow as molasses in January though, so the latter isn't all likely at all. :/

If someone sat there in debug mode and mapped out memory addresses then they could prove the speed stat and/or the turn order works a certain way.  Otherwise your best bet for learning mechanics is to test it for yourself and compare results with others.  That's what Raelcun's saying.  The fact you [i]haven't[/i] tested Haschel much means you don't know for sure that Albert is the better character for the party. Maybe try playing with the other character for a bit and see if you can devise some new strategies.  Conversely, Raelcun could try using Albert a bit if he hasn't already to see if the change does indeed slow him down considerably.

I wonder if there could be some random jitter in the turn calculations to cause such disparate results.  In that case playing on an emulator could really jack with the entropy and give seemingly random turn orders at high level play depending on how the game's RNG works.  
I also wonder there's a way to set characters up so the same relative ratio of effective player turns to boss turns would stay the same for either character.  I know Albert is slow as molasses in January though, so the latter isn't all likely at all. :/

The2012Robot

2013-02-22 07:21:19 am

I run for fun :)

As I said, with my current strategies, Albert would be faster than Haschel using most of them. Magic users put out so much damage that it's faster to only use them in at least a couple of battles off the top of my head. I've used Haschel enough to at least know that he gets more wasted turns than Albert because of his speed. That said, I am (not currently) looking at the last couple battles that I think may see some benefit from extra additions. Once that research is complete and I've got my Melbu strategy locked in stone, my run will basically be finished, at least as far as I think I can take it by myself.

It would be awesome if someone could do a real test like that, Rakuen. It's beyond my tech knowledge, that's for sure.

I haven't watched your stream in a long time, Raelcun (hit my data cap half-way through the month). How is your optimization going? Any ideas about what a new time could look like?

TengEng

2013-02-22 09:37:45 am

Whatever, just do it quickly.

I certainly think working out game mechanics should a top priority, because that will really aid runners in route planning. I don't know if there are any resources out there that have definitively reverse engineered the LoD turn system. Until a run is planned out based on the best available knowledge, I don't know if this game is even worthwhile considering for verification. It might turn out that after 5 or 6 full runs through, the experience of running will result in a complete rework of the route.

On the side, I don't think Raelcun has provided a complete reason why Albert is not usable for the SS, because what Raelcun has posted is that Albert is vulnerable, a potential liability, and may not perform. I would rather conclude for now that Raelcun has favored a more resilient strategy, while Robot will tempt luck more and if a few battles six hours into the game are the graveyard of runs, so be it. The RNG and RPG combination will result in very different looking routes based on how well characters scale.

But that possible difference reflects the nature of RPG planning. The approach to routing is largely from the end backwards. What you need for the final bosses and most challenging hurdles of the game determines the best detours for optional items and character selections. So Robot, it's highly premature to announce to everyone that your route for the first 10 hours is perfect when you haven't scratched the final boss. It could be the best pre-Melbu route and it'd count for crap. As for watching Raelcun's stream and attempting to lift his Melbu strategy, please do. It's just highly ironic given your attitude towards the possibility of other runners using your strategy when they see it.

I certainly think working out game mechanics should a top priority, because that will really aid runners in route planning.  I don't know if there are any resources out there that have definitively reverse engineered the LoD turn system.  Until a run is planned out based on the best available knowledge, I don't know if this game is even worthwhile considering for verification.  It might turn out that after 5 or 6 full runs through, the experience of running will result in a complete rework of the route.

On the side, I don't think Raelcun has provided a complete reason why Albert is not usable for the SS, because what Raelcun has posted is that Albert is vulnerable, a potential liability, and may not perform.   I would rather conclude for now that Raelcun has favored a more resilient strategy, while Robot will tempt luck more and if a few battles six hours into the game are the graveyard of runs, so be it.  The RNG and RPG combination will result in very different looking routes based on how well characters scale.

But that possible difference reflects the nature of RPG planning.  The approach to routing is largely from the end backwards.  What you need for the final bosses and most challenging hurdles of the game determines the best detours for optional items and character selections.  So Robot, it's highly premature to announce to everyone that your route for the first 10 hours is perfect when you haven't scratched the final boss.  It could be the best pre-Melbu route and it'd count for crap.  As for watching Raelcun's stream and attempting to lift his Melbu strategy, please do.  It's just highly ironic given your attitude towards the possibility of other runners using your strategy when they see it.

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-02-22 05:03:43 pm

Raelcun: 2013-02-22 04:57:09 pm

Raelcun: 2013-02-22 04:48:22 pm

2013-02-22 04:44:09 pm

We require more minerals

So your reasoning why Albert's speed doesn't matter is that Magic users put out so much damage that he's irrelevant. While this is true the magic users only start doing enough damage to where this is the case in the second boss of the third disc. This means there are two whole discs where his damage is relevant and allow you to save time. On Disc three itself you have Grand Jewel (additions are relevelant) Divine Dragon (killed my meru no additions necessary) Windigo (killed by an item) and Lloyd (additions are relevant.)

The fourth disc has the last Kraken which the optimal way to kill involves having your third attacking character help contribute a sizable chunk of damage before you kill it with items since it has 10,000 health.

The executioners which die to items (but you allow them to kill a random party member instead of manipulating.) This alone is really poor optimization and would get you criticized if you let Meru die. The reasoning being you are forsaking a lot of planning because Meru does so much damage that it doesn't matter. Then you're allowing an avoidable random factor have a chance at killing her so that she misses a sizable chunk of experience and can wind up a level behind.

Zackwell is killable with items but damage from additions is relevant unless you plan on using all your attack items or going back to buy more afterwards (both of which waste massive amounts of time)

Then we have a lot of story bosses which can be beaten easily, the Super Virage in which having your third character hit for 1200+ with the powerdown and a powered up addition has the chance to make him miss a turn (you got trolled by his long attack last time.)

Zieg, in which the optimal way to kill him involves multiple attacks from the additions of your third character in that I've had him only take a single turn before

And Melbu Frahma in which your quoted time is over 10 minutes slower than mine. You don't know what my AI manipulations are because you haven't seen it but for the most part they're safety based not speed. The way I gain all of that time back is because if you're not even getting Gust of Wind Dance to level 5 I can guarantee that Haschel is doing more damage than Albert on that boss.

Rose storm is a 24 second animation which has extremely limited usefulness because it only lasts for 3 of the characters turns. That means that Meru's rose storm wears off immediately and if you have speed items on Albert then it mitigates only 1 or 2 boss turns of damage. It also means that if you're relying on Rose Storm too much then you need mana restoration items which clutter up a rather tight inventory for the Melbu fight. Currently I come into that fight with no mana items and get through it reliably every time at a faster speed than you do.

My route is planned around the fourth disc because the fourth disc is the longest and the way that additions work is that your entire game is building up to that point. I waste small amounts of time earlier in the game so that I can save larger chunks of time on disc 4. During my actual run I lost a large amount of time because I went to standard disc speed to avoid a possible game crash since I wanted to have splits.

Also if you're using Meru's magic to avoid having to stock up on large amounts of attack items you should be aware of the fact that each time you cast freezing ring with Meru you're losing about 10 seconds over using an attack item so it should be avoided when possible, and that having her transform can freeze certain boss fights on console (another reason why you should be testing on console.)

My run is planned from the point of view that the first few discs are very easy to optimize while disc 4 requires all of the previous discs of planning to get right and optimal. In this way I have discarded Albert because in order to insure that he gets to level 5 gust of wind dance for an optimal disc 4 I lose a considerable amount of time and have to sacrifice other things that I would like to have on Dart.

Also as for Haschel's "wasted" turns they're not wasted. Haschel's extra turns often come in times that allow him to throw a healing item instead of one of the more important party members. If you really are treating your third party member as an extra having him get extra turns means that at the very worst case scenario he can guard, and in the best case scenario allows your other party members to not waste turns throwing items.

On top of all of this, Haschel's attack animations are faster than Albert until he gets to Hex Hammer which is on par with Gust of Wind Dance. So every time Haschel attacks I'm saving seconds over Albert until disc four.

p.s: As for bosses taking double turns that's how the turn system works. Slow characters randomly get double turns as well, it is a factor of the way that the turn order is based on the speed and a random factor determined at the start of the battle. If you learn the turn orders well enough the double turns usually won't surprise you. I've had my slowest character get two turns in a row in the same way that bosses do sometimes as well. I can guarantee you that there is no such system as allowing bosses to randomly take extra turns whenever they want excluding counter attack actions.

edit: I forgot Imago, oops. Imago has the second highest health in the game and is the only boss in which I "grind" on. I have my planning to the point where the only thing I need to do is allow Meru to get Dragoon level 2 and have haschel hit the boss with ~15 hex hammers which can be done normally without wasting any time. Addition damage on Imago is obviously relevant since it's the first boss after the point of no return and your magic attacks are severely limited from that point on.

So your reasoning why Albert's speed doesn't matter is that Magic users put out so much damage that he's irrelevant. While this is true the magic users only start doing enough damage to where this is the case in the second boss of the third disc. This means there are two whole discs where his damage is relevant and allow you to save time. On Disc three itself you have Grand Jewel (additions are relevelant) Divine Dragon (killed my meru no additions necessary) Windigo (killed by an item) and Lloyd (additions are relevant.)

The fourth disc has the last Kraken which the optimal way to kill involves having your third attacking character help contribute a sizable chunk of damage before you kill it with items since it has 10,000 health.

The executioners which die to items (but you allow them to kill a random party member instead of manipulating.) This alone is really poor optimization and would get you criticized if you let Meru die. The reasoning being you are forsaking a lot of planning because Meru does so much damage that it doesn't matter. Then you're allowing an avoidable random factor have a chance at killing her so that she misses a sizable chunk of experience and can wind up a level behind.

Zackwell is killable with items but damage from additions is relevant unless you plan on using all your attack items or going back to buy more afterwards (both of which waste massive amounts of time)

Then we have a lot of story bosses which can be beaten easily, the Super Virage in which having your third character hit for 1200+ with the powerdown and a powered up addition has the chance to make him miss a turn (you got trolled by his long attack last time.)

Zieg, in which the optimal way to kill him involves multiple attacks from the additions of your third character in that I've had him only take a single turn before

And Melbu Frahma in which your quoted time is over 10 minutes slower than mine. You don't know what my AI manipulations are because you haven't seen it but for the most part they're safety based not speed. The way I gain all of that time back is because if you're not even getting Gust of Wind Dance to level 5 I can guarantee that Haschel is doing more damage than Albert on that boss.

Rose storm is a 24 second animation which has extremely limited usefulness because it only lasts for 3 of the characters turns. That means that Meru's rose storm wears off immediately and if you have speed items on Albert then it mitigates only 1 or 2 boss turns of damage. It also means that if you're relying on Rose Storm too much then you need mana restoration items which clutter up a rather tight inventory for the Melbu fight. Currently I come into that fight with no mana items and get through it reliably every time at a faster speed than you do.

My route is planned around the fourth disc because the fourth disc is the longest and the way that additions work is that your entire game is building up to that point. I waste small amounts of time earlier in the game so that I can save larger chunks of time on disc 4. During my actual run I lost a large amount of time because I went to standard disc speed to avoid a possible game crash since I wanted to have splits.

Also if you're using Meru's magic to avoid having to stock up on large amounts of attack items you should be aware of the fact that each time you cast freezing ring with Meru you're losing about 10 seconds over using an attack item so it should be avoided when possible, and that having her transform can freeze certain boss fights on console (another reason why you should be testing on console.)

My run is planned from the point of view that the first few discs are very easy to optimize while disc 4 requires all of the previous discs of planning to get right and optimal. In this way I have discarded Albert because in order to insure that he gets to level 5 gust of wind dance for an optimal disc 4 I lose a considerable amount of time and have to sacrifice other things that I would like to have on Dart.

Also as for Haschel's "wasted" turns they're not wasted. Haschel's extra turns often come in times that allow him to throw a healing item instead of one of the more important party members. If you really are treating your third party member as an extra having him get extra turns means that at the very worst case scenario he can guard, and in the best case scenario allows your other party members to not waste turns throwing items.

On top of all of this, Haschel's attack animations are faster than Albert until he gets to Hex Hammer which is on par with Gust of Wind Dance. So every time Haschel attacks I'm saving seconds over Albert until disc four.

p.s: As for bosses taking double turns that's how the turn system works. Slow characters randomly get double turns as well, it is a factor of the way that the turn order is based on the speed and a random factor determined at the start of the battle. If you learn the turn orders well enough the double turns usually won't surprise you. I've had my slowest character get two turns in a row in the same way that bosses do sometimes as well. I can guarantee you that there is no such system as allowing bosses to randomly take extra turns whenever they want excluding counter attack actions.

edit: I forgot Imago, oops. Imago has the second highest health in the game and is the only boss in which I "grind" on. I have my planning to the point where the only thing I need to do is allow Meru to get Dragoon level 2 and have haschel hit the boss with ~15 hex hammers which can be done normally without wasting any time. Addition damage on Imago is obviously relevant since it's the first boss after the point of no return and your magic attacks are severely limited from that point on.