Legend of Dragoon (Speed Run)

The2012Robot

2013-02-24 04:58:17 pm

I run for fun :)

I'm at a library right now and I don't have my notes with me (internet has been down for awhile at my house), but I'll respond as best I can.

I watched Raelcun's Melbu strategy and didn't see anything I didn't already know about. Your Melbu battle goes a lot faster because your characters are a lot stronger. This is because you spend time grinding them. Your time is so far behind mine (at least on emulator) that I wonder if you lose time because of how long it takes you to grind each character. I've haven't tested Melbu without Rose Storm, but it would certainly make Melbu's 4th generation planetary attack way more dangerous. I use it 4 times throughout, so 1:34 of Rose Storms.

I don't use additions on Lloyd. I only use Meru. He's like clockwork.

Last Kraken- Magic and additions throughout the entire battle.

I've had Meru live and die by the executioners and played the rest of the game- all bosses seem to be killable in the same amount of turns.

Zackwell- Magic and additions throughout I believe.

I didn't factor in the reset because of freezing.

I don't use Meru's Freezing Ring... I think maybe once.

You're probably right on the battle system. In your exact words that was my other way of thinking it might work.

I have to go now. Hopefully my internet will be up soon so I can respond to the rest of your post Smiley

I'm at a library right now and I don't have my notes with me (internet has been down for awhile at my house), but I'll respond as best I can.

I watched Raelcun's Melbu strategy and didn't see anything I didn't already know about. Your Melbu battle goes a lot faster because your characters are a lot stronger. This is because you spend time grinding them. Your time is so far behind mine (at least on emulator) that I wonder if you lose time because of how long it takes you to grind each character. I've haven't tested Melbu without Rose Storm, but it would certainly make Melbu's 4th generation planetary attack way more dangerous. I use it 4 times throughout, so 1:34 of Rose Storms.

I don't use additions on Lloyd. I only use Meru. He's like clockwork.

Last Kraken- Magic and additions throughout the entire battle.

I've had Meru live and die by the executioners and played the rest of the game- all bosses seem to be killable in the same amount of turns.

Zackwell- Magic and additions throughout I believe.

I didn't factor in the reset because of freezing.

I don't use Meru's Freezing Ring... I think maybe once.

You're probably right on the battle system. In your exact words that was my other way of thinking it might work.

I have to go now. Hopefully my internet will be up soon so I can respond to the rest of your post :)

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-02-24 08:30:20 pm

2013-02-24 08:25:58 pm

We require more minerals

Quote:

Your Melbu battle goes a lot faster because your characters are a lot stronger.

This is the entire point I'm trying to make. I haven't optimized my first three discs yet because I'm trying to optimize Melbu first. You're planning your run backwards. You're saying that your route is "done" once you finish testing Melbu and that's now how planning this game should work. In order to change strategies on the fourth disc you really need to change all of your strategies up to the fourth disc.

My run isn't anywhere near done because once I "finish" disc four I need to retroactively go back and optimize the previous discs without affecting disc four.

As for time wasted while grinding, I can count on my hands the number of times throughout the entire run that I have Dart hit a boss that doesn't need the damage just for an extra Crush Dance. The amount of time that I am "wasting" grinding is less than the amount of time I'm saving over you on Melbu. This is the entire point that I am trying to make clear to you.

Keep in mind that an addition from Haschel and Dart is still less time taken than a full attack item. Attack items take time to display. Many times throughout the game up until late in Disc 3 you can equal if not outdamage the attack item by using 2 addition hits.

So the new question is, you use all of this magic to kill bosses and avoid additions throughout your run. This means that you need more attack items than I do and can't carry as many charm potions. How are you making back the lost inventory space? Are you tanking random encounters just so you can carry more attack items? I don't think this is worth it at any time besides maybe the end of Disc 4.

Quote:

I've had Meru live and die by the executioners and played the rest of the game- all bosses seem to be killable in the same amount of turns.

Have you even considered that this is over 9 hours into the run and that you might not be able to mash high enough? Finger fatigue is a thing near the end of the game that you should be accounting for. I started the run consistently getting 226-230% and was having a very hard time even getting 220% consistently in disc 4.

[quote] Your Melbu battle goes a lot faster because your characters are a lot stronger. [/quote]

This is the entire point I'm trying to make. I haven't optimized my first three discs yet because I'm trying to optimize Melbu first. You're planning your run backwards. You're saying that your route is "done" once you finish testing Melbu and that's now how planning this game should work. In order to change strategies on the fourth disc you really need to change all of your strategies up to the fourth disc.

My run isn't anywhere near done because once I "finish" disc four I need to retroactively go back and optimize the previous discs without affecting disc four.

As for time wasted while grinding, I can count on my hands the number of times throughout the entire run that I have Dart hit a boss that doesn't need the damage just for an extra Crush Dance. The amount of time that I am "wasting" grinding is less than the amount of time I'm saving over you on Melbu. This is the entire point that I am trying to make clear to you.

Keep in mind that an addition from Haschel and Dart is still less time taken than a full attack item. Attack items take time to display. Many times throughout the game up until late in Disc 3 you can equal if not outdamage the attack item by using 2 addition hits.

So the new question is, you use all of this magic to kill bosses and avoid additions throughout your run. This means that you need more attack items than I do and can't carry as many charm potions. How are you making back the lost inventory space? Are you tanking random encounters just so you can carry more attack items? I don't think this is worth it at any time besides maybe the end of Disc 4.

[quote]I've had Meru live and die by the executioners and played the rest of the game- all bosses seem to be killable in the same amount of turns.[/quote]

Have you even considered that this is over 9 hours into the run and that you might not be able to mash high enough? Finger fatigue is a thing near the end of the game that you should be accounting for. I started the run consistently getting 226-230% and was having a very hard time even getting 220% consistently in disc 4.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-02-25 04:59:46 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-02-25 04:57:22 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-02-25 01:34:17 am

2013-02-25 01:31:31 am

I run for fun :)

I always have enough room in my inventory for the magic I use, up until TMTNS. And I never sacrifice CPs- I have enough for the entire game to never get a random encounter, except for one on the first disc which I use for experience. I haven't considered finger fatigue, but I'm not worried. Maybe I will be once I've had an attempt to experience it.

I still honestly have a good amount of testing to do on Melbu. I don't know if 45 minutes is the fastest my current run can do. I've only actually beat Melbu like 3 or 4 times testing him using somewhat varying strategies. I had pure speed in mind all the way up to the final boss, so I'm making everything as fast as possible up to that point with minimal side-tracking. Since I can still beat Melbu with a satisfactory success rate, the next thing for me to do would be to look at ways to improve my time against him without sacrifice of the overall time.

I see that your natural solution to improving your Melbu time is to buff up your characters over the course of the discs. Having not tested out your Crush Dance idea, or your Hex Hammer grinding (forgive me if you don't "grind" his Hex Hammer- I can't watch your stream), I don't know how much extra time you're using (I didn't say you were "wasting" time grinding. Did I say that in a different post?) to buff your characters. So as you take the things I say with a grain of salt, I will do the same for yours.

So I'll bring up an old idea. Record your optimized times for each boss past disc 1 and I will too. Then we can compare how fast they are without either of us having to re-test the entire game. If your times total <10 minutes more than mine, then you're clearly correct. What do you think?

I always have enough room in my inventory for the magic I use, up until TMTNS. And I never sacrifice CPs- I have enough for the entire game to never get a random encounter, except for one on the first disc which I use for experience. I haven't considered finger fatigue, but I'm not worried. Maybe I will be once I've had an attempt to experience it.

I still honestly have a good amount of testing to do on Melbu. I don't know if 45 minutes is the fastest my current run can do. I've only actually beat Melbu like 3 or 4 times testing him using somewhat varying strategies. I had pure speed in mind all the way up to the final boss, so I'm making everything as fast as possible up to that point with minimal side-tracking. Since I can still beat Melbu with a satisfactory success rate, the next thing for me to do would be to look at ways to improve my time against him without sacrifice of the overall time.

I see that your natural solution to improving your Melbu time is to buff up your characters over the course of the discs. Having not tested out your Crush Dance idea, or your Hex Hammer grinding (forgive me if you don't "grind" his Hex Hammer- I can't watch your stream), I don't know how much extra time you're using (I didn't say you were "wasting" time grinding. Did I say that in a different post?) to buff your characters. So as you take the things I say with a grain of salt, I will do the same for yours.

So I'll bring up an old idea. Record your optimized times for each boss past disc 1 and I will too. Then we can compare how fast they are without either of us having to re-test the entire game. If your times total <10 minutes more than mine, then you're clearly correct. What do you think?

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-03 05:26:45 am

2013-03-03 05:26:20 am

I run for fun :)

After a ton of Melbu testing, I have determined that the big strategy that I've been talking about isn't worth executing. It only saved me a measly 2 minutes over my new fastest Melbu time without it- 44:00. The strategy takes around 8-10 minutes to execute. I'm going to watch Raelcun's WR Melbu fight one more time to check if there's something I'm missing (which I'm thinking there is at this point).

From first attack to start of D.D. Cannon, Raelcun's WR time is approximately 38:45. You said that my time (45) was 10 minutes slower than your fastest. Were you exaggerating or have you really gotten a 35? It would be nice to know a more exact time... if you feel like sharing. If 38:45 is actually your fastest, then that <10 should actually be something like a <5:15.

The2012Robot

2013-03-03 07:17:25 am

Don't know why I didn't think about this before, but there is something that supports my battle system theory. As you know, I use an emulator and use savestates to try out different strategies. I will often use savestates between turns to try out different moves. The interesting part- attacking, defending, item use and item % all yield different turn-orders. For instance, if I were to attack, the enemy would get a turn right after. But if I defended instead, another character would get a turn. This proves that boss turns are not entirely predictable and that my battle system theory is correct. Again, I don't know why I didn't remember this back when we were discussing it, but I did just now Tongue

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2013-03-03 08:46:14 am

Rakuen: 2013-03-03 08:45:19 am

Rakuen: 2013-03-03 08:36:17 am

2013-03-03 08:35:13 am

Weegee Time

That doesn't definitively prove anything. Different action types can give you different amounts of time toward that character's next turn. Final Fantasy X is an example of the mechanic and it even gives you the turn order to see it in action. There might be a deterministic mechanic in the other direction in Legend of Dragoon. In other words, if X action is used, other characters turn gauges might be altered as a result. You could manipulate the turn order if Legend of Dragoon uses it in either direction. That'd be pretty useful. Smiley

It's also possible two characters might have filled their turn gauge at or near the same time. Random salting might be at work (basically your theory). Someone with experience debugging PSX games might be able to use that save state to figure some mechanics if you've still got it.

TengEng

Edit history:

TengEng: 2013-03-03 09:44:22 am

2013-03-03 09:42:54 am

Whatever, just do it quickly.

Assuming that there is deterministic state-based "randomness." Then doing the same action from a save state should yield the same outcomes. Attacking from any one save state should always yield the same turn results. Likewise defending from any one save state should always yield the same turn results.
Game mechanics can always have a tie-breaker randomness when two combatants have turns in same time quanta. If there is randomness in turn refills, you'd expect characters with the same exact speed to occasionally swap turn orders but never too frequently. If there is no randomness, then they will never swap turn orders unless they start off in the same time quantum. In such a situation they'd reliably swap turn order randomly. In this system, a character never takes away a turn from another character. An attack action can give an extra turn as much as it can take away one.

The only way that the battle system can reliably "take" turns away is if attack action causes time to make a larger jump forward than a defend action.

Assuming that there is deterministic state-based "randomness."  Then doing the same action from a save state should yield the same outcomes.  Attacking from any one save state should always yield the same turn results.  Likewise defending from any one save state should always yield the same turn results.
Game mechanics can always have a tie-breaker randomness when two combatants have turns in same time quanta.  If there is randomness in turn refills, you'd expect characters with the same exact speed to occasionally swap turn orders but never too frequently.  If there is no randomness, then they will never swap turn orders unless they start off in the same time quantum.  In such a situation they'd reliably swap turn order randomly.  In this system, a character never takes away a turn from another character.  An attack action can give an extra turn as much as it can take away one.

The only way that the battle system can reliably "take" turns away is if attack action causes time to make a larger jump forward than a defend action.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-03 01:56:16 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-03 01:53:53 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-03 01:49:04 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-03 01:43:29 pm

2013-03-03 01:41:18 pm

I run for fun :)

I thought about that, Rakuen. Just seemed like a really weird idea so I discounted it.

I'm almost 100% sure that the outcome of a battle changes with every single move you make. I know this affects when the boss will go, but I'm not sure if it affects character order (I don't think it does). Haschel gets more turns than Albert... so if I'm not mistaken, using Haschel with my current strategies, his wasted turns could be even more dangerous because the boss could get more turns because the amount of turns in my battles would increase. Am I wrong? I'm glad you guys are here to poke holes in my theory. Set me straight. Smiley

Edit: Loading from a savestate and using the same moves produce the same results every time. None of my characters have the same speed, but over time they could overlap. Also, I have noticed that defending with characters does seem to yield more turns between boss attacks. But it could just be me. Looks like I know what I'm testing today.

And yeah, this is especially useful information for a TAS... although anyone who actually tries a TAS could probably figure out that turns affect other turns pretty quickly once they start savestating over and over again in battle. Especially useful with magic because each different percentage yields a different outcome.

I thought about that, Rakuen. Just seemed like a really weird idea so I discounted it.

I'm almost 100% sure that the outcome of a battle changes with every single move you make. I know this affects when the boss will go, but I'm not sure if it affects character order (I don't think it does). Haschel gets more turns than Albert... so if I'm not mistaken, using Haschel with my current strategies, his wasted turns could be even more dangerous because the boss could get more turns because the amount of turns in my battles would increase. Am I wrong? I'm glad you guys are here to poke holes in my theory. Set me straight. :)

Edit: Loading from a savestate and using the same moves produce the same results every time. None of my characters have the same speed, but over time they could overlap. Also, I have noticed that defending with characters does seem to yield more turns between boss attacks. But it could just be me. Looks like I know what I'm testing today.

And yeah, this is especially useful information for a TAS... although anyone who actually tries a TAS could probably figure out that turns affect other turns pretty quickly once they start savestating over and over again in battle. Especially useful with magic because each different percentage yields a different outcome.

Raelcun

2013-03-03 03:57:59 pm

We require more minerals

Remember that part about how I said that in the WR the Melbu fight was slow? Yeah that was a thing that I said several times.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-03 05:11:36 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-03 05:00:59 pm

2013-03-03 04:20:13 pm

I run for fun :)

Okay, sorry I forgot. Sooo... your fastest time is 35 flat?

Edit: I've read through all your posts again and don't see where you ever said that the WR fight was slow. You did say that your fastest time was over 10 minutes faster than my quoted time (45). So I was wondering if you may have been exaggerating at all after timing your WR fight.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-06 04:11:13 pm

2013-03-06 04:39:27 am

I run for fun :)

So I watched Raelcun's WR Melbu again... and I actually learned some things. Using the strategy I've been mentioning, I've got my Melbu time down to 40:23. There are still some ideas I want to test out, though. If my ideas are good, I can probably reduce my time to around 35-37, in which case my strategy would almost definitely be worth using. But I still don't know how much time Raelcun's addition grinding takes over my strategy, so I can't say that my run would be faster in the end. Maybe Raelcun just hasn't checked this thread in awhile, or he doesn't feel like his battles are fully optimized, but it seems to me like he's choosing not to share. Any of that is alright with me. I'm just wondering what he's up to.

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-03-08 06:40:47 am

2013-03-08 06:40:17 am

We require more minerals

Quote:

Maybe Raelcun just hasn't checked this thread in awhile, or he doesn't feel like his battles are fully optimized, but it seems to me like he's choosing not to share. Any of that is alright with me. I'm just wondering what he's up to.

When have I not shared anything? I don't know because I haven't timed them. As I've explained to you multiple times I'm not done optimizing so comparing times isn't a useful thing to be doing. You can stop being passive aggressive now thanks.

I was busy working on a charity event, have another one coming up, and have been making sure that the content I made for the HotS launch party was fine. I've been busy and haven't had time to put into LoD recently.

The2012Robot

2013-03-08 03:51:24 pm

I run for fun :)

I meant that you weren't sharing your battle times of which I now know that you can record because you still haven't optimized them. Passive aggressive? ...wow. Did that post really come off as passive aggressive? That wasn't my intention, so I'm sorry if it came off like that. I'm trying to actually work with you on something- the last thing I want to do is be aggressive with you.

I hope you raised a lot Smiley

Rakuen

2013-03-08 05:46:25 pm

Weegee Time

Quote from The2012Robot:

but it seems to me like he's choosing not to share.

That's where you went over the line, bro. Do not attribute to malice what can be attributed to having a life. Don't even come close to it. Smiley

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-03-08 06:22:33 pm

Raelcun: 2013-03-08 06:20:11 pm

2013-03-08 06:19:30 pm

We require more minerals

Robot, you wanted to compare times directly to attempt to prove which method was better when you knew that mine weren't done being optimized yet. You essentially just asked me to post unoptimized times so that you could turn around and say "HA! Mine are better, therefore Albert wins." Of course I'm not going to do that. I haven't had the time recently to put into LoD as well as the fact that I will be testing a few other things once I start again. I am not spending the huge amount of time to fully optimize my route until I'm certain that the other alternatives have been exhausted.

I don't want to put 200 hours into this route and find out that if I changed it completely I'd save massive time. It's going to be a while before I have a "fully optimized" run. Even then it probably won't be "fully optimized" because there are always improvements than can happen for minor time savings. That's why I've been pushing you to cooperate, your run is probably full of a lot of minor mistakes that could be improved. No matter how thorough you think you're being, you are one person and one person alone is usually not enough to "fully optimize" a game.

All of this means that I won't have times to compare to yours for a while. I am not holding anything back; I am not hiding anything. I stream all my practice; you know this because you've seen my stream. You should also notice that I haven't been streaming much at all recently since I don't have the time. If you really want to know times you can figure it out for yourself by watching the vods, but I refuse to participate in a dick waving content designed to give you an excuse to say that Albert is better since my fights aren't optimized still.

Robot, you wanted to compare times directly to attempt to prove which method was better when you knew that mine weren't done being optimized yet. You essentially just asked me to post unoptimized times so that you could turn around and say "HA! Mine are better, therefore Albert wins." Of course I'm not going to do that. I haven't had the time recently to put into LoD as well as the fact that I will be testing a few other things once I start again. I am not spending the huge amount of time to fully optimize my route until I'm certain that the other alternatives have been exhausted.

I don't want to put 200 hours into this route and find out that if I changed it completely I'd save massive time. It's going to be a while before I have a "fully optimized" run. Even then it probably won't be "fully optimized" because there are always improvements than can happen for minor time savings. That's why I've been pushing you to cooperate, your run is probably full of a lot of minor mistakes that could be improved. No matter how thorough you think you're being, you are one person and one person alone is usually not enough to "fully optimize" a game.

All of this means that I won't have times to compare to yours for a while. I am not holding anything back; I am not hiding anything. I stream all my practice; you know this because you've seen my stream. You should also notice that I haven't been streaming much at all recently since I don't have the time. If you really want to know times you can figure it out for yourself by watching the vods, but I refuse to participate in a dick waving content designed to give you an excuse to say that Albert is better since my fights aren't optimized still.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 09:34:16 pm

2013-03-08 09:33:07 pm

I run for fun :)

Quote from Rakuen:

Quote from The2012Robot:

but it seems to me like he's choosing not to share.

That's where you went over the line, bro. Do not attribute to malice what can be attributed to having a life. Don't even come close to it. Smiley

...I am so confused. I never said that I thought he wasn't sharing out of spite.

Quote from Raelcun:

Robot, you wanted to compare times directly to attempt to prove which method was better when you knew that mine weren't done being optimized yet. You essentially just asked me to post unoptimized times so that you could turn around and say "HA! Mine are better, therefore Albert wins." Of course I'm not going to do that. I haven't had the time recently to put into LoD as well as the fact that I will be testing a few other things once I start again. I am not spending the huge amount of time to fully optimize my route until I'm certain that the other alternatives have been exhausted.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where I said that you should post your unoptimized times and post them right away. I don't want to compare my optimized times to your unoptimized times... what the hell kind of sense would that make?

Quote:

I don't want to put 200 hours into this route and find out that if I changed it completely I'd save massive time. It's going to be a while before I have a "fully optimized" run. Even then it probably won't be "fully optimized" because there are always improvements than can happen for minor time savings. That's why I've been pushing you to cooperate, your run is probably full of a lot of minor mistakes that could be improved. No matter how thorough you think you're being, you are one person and one person alone is usually not enough to "fully optimize" a game.

I fully acknowledge that I am only one brain and that I probably won't find every single little time-saver. I doubt there are that many tiny mistakes though- I've planned almost the entire game down to controller inputs in the menus (battles, party, shop, etc.). But yeah, you're right. Still, my reasons for not sharing remain.

Quote:

All of this means that I won't have times to compare to yours for a while. I am not holding anything back; I am not hiding anything. I stream all my practice; you know this because you've seen my stream. You should also notice that I haven't been streaming much at all recently since I don't have the time. If you really want to know times you can figure it out for yourself by watching the vods, but I refuse to participate in a dick waving content designed to give you an excuse to say that Albert is better since my fights aren't optimized still.

I've seen your stream, but I didn't assume you streamed ALL of your practice.

Watching disc 2-4 of your WR is unfeasible considering my internet plan, and as I said above, I don't want to compare my times against your unoptimized times. So is my understanding correct that you will provide your times when they're optimized? If so, I will start recording my best times and post them when I've got them all right away.

[quote="Rakuen"][quote=The2012Robot]but it seems to me like he's choosing not to share.[/quote]
That's where you went over the line, bro.  Do not attribute to malice what can be attributed to having a life.  Don't even come close to it.  :)[/quote]

...I am so confused. I never said that I thought he wasn't sharing out of spite.

[quote="Raelcun"]Robot, you wanted to compare times directly to attempt to prove which method was better when you knew that mine weren't done being optimized yet. You essentially just asked me to post unoptimized times so that you could turn around and say "HA! Mine are better, therefore Albert wins." Of course I'm not going to do that. I haven't had the time recently to put into LoD as well as the fact that I will be testing a few other things once I start again. I am not spending the huge amount of time to fully optimize my route until I'm certain that the other alternatives have been exhausted.[/quote]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where I said that you should post your unoptimized times and post them right away. I don't want to compare my optimized times to your unoptimized times... what the hell kind of sense would that make?

[quote]I don't want to put 200 hours into this route and find out that if I changed it completely I'd save massive time. It's going to be a while before I have a "fully optimized" run. Even then it probably won't be "fully optimized" because there are always improvements than can happen for minor time savings. That's why I've been pushing you to cooperate, your run is probably full of a lot of minor mistakes that could be improved. No matter how thorough you think you're being, you are one person and one person alone is usually not enough to "fully optimize" a game.[/quote]

I fully acknowledge that I am only one brain and that I probably won't find every single little time-saver. I doubt there are that many tiny mistakes though- I've planned almost the entire game down to controller inputs in the menus (battles, party, shop, etc.). But yeah, you're right. Still, my reasons for not sharing remain.

[quote]All of this means that I won't have times to compare to yours for a while. I am not holding anything back; I am not hiding anything. I stream all my practice; you know this because you've seen my stream. You should also notice that I haven't been streaming much at all recently since I don't have the time. If you really want to know times you can figure it out for yourself by watching the vods, but I refuse to participate in a dick waving content designed to give you an excuse to say that Albert is better since my fights aren't optimized still.[/quote]

I've seen your stream, but I didn't assume you streamed ALL of your practice.

Watching disc 2-4 of your WR is unfeasible considering my internet plan, and as I said above, I don't want to compare my times against your unoptimized times. So is my understanding correct that you will provide your times when they're optimized? If so, I will start recording my best times and post them when I've got them all right away.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:01:02 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:00:22 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 09:47:29 pm

2013-03-08 09:46:56 pm

I run for fun :)

Just lost my post... *sigh* I'll try to summarize what I wrote then. I did some calculations and came to the conclusion that you'd need to grind at least 29 Crush Dances to get to lvl. 5. The other 51 would only lose about 1 second each as Volcano is 1 second faster. 4 of the 29 grinded Crush Dances would not result in an extra enemy attack. Crush Dance takes about 8 seconds to use instead of defend.

51 + 32 + (25*8) = 283 seconds = 4:43

This calculation doesn't include the extra turns a boss will get because of those purely-grinded Crush Dances. Lenus alone is at least an extra 40 seconds in my mind.

Hex Hammer: To get close to matching Albert, assuming Haschel is at full health, he'd have to have Hex Hammer at lvl. 3. I realize that he's also faster, so he will be doing more damage anyways over the course of the Melbu fight. But I think I remember you getting it to lvl. 3. I figured you'd probably have to purely-grind around 20 additions. You'd be getting necessary damage in with the rest (using my strategies).

20 * 8 = 160 seconds = 2:40

Again, this doesn't include extra boss turns.

Meru D.lvl. 2: Cool Boogie = 8 seconds. I've read in a couple places that 2000 SP (I might be wrong) is required for Meru to reach D.lvl. 2. Level 1 Cool Boogie gives 60 SP + 30 SP if you equip her Pretty Hammer. It would take 23 Cool Boogies to get over 2000 with the Pretty Hammer. With how many turns she's left magicless and has to defend, I'd say you could probably get most of them without extra boss turns.

23 * 8 = 184 seconds = 3:04

Going back for Trans Lights: I simply timed how long it takes Raelcun to get to Fletz and back. Knowing the time could be better, I chopped off 10 seconds.

1:50

Total = 12:17

Things left unfactored: Time saved due to extra damage from additions (not including Melbu). In Dart's case, I don't think there is any time to be saved, especially when you factor in that a boss(es) are going to get more turns from prolonged battles. Same goes for Hachel, although you would probably grind Dart and Haschel at the simultaneously, so their wouldn't be as much boss attack time applied to Haschel (I know I didn't explain this very well). Meru's Cool Boogie is so weak that she barely contributes to how fast a boss will go, but nevertheless, she may shave a bit off her 3:04.

The other thing left unfactored is the extra boss turns I mentioned. The biggest offender would almost definitely be Lenus (not even included in the 25 extra additions). It's bad enough that Crush Dance does less damage than Volcano at this point, which means more character turns and consequently more Lenus turns, but she can screw you over with double turns as well. I imagine this battle would be an extra 30 seconds at the very least, especially if you haven't grinded Crush Dance past lvl.1 yet. And Haschel needs to purely-grind around 20 additions near the end of the game.

This is all conjecture, of course. I don't know if Raelcun still grinds Crush Dance up to lvl. 5, how high he levels Hex Hammer, or if any of his plans have changed. I'm just going off of what I remember from the little bit I've watched and heard from Raelcun. And I probably didn't account for everything in my calculations. But if the amount of needed-grind-additions and other points are correct, then I think 12:17 is a fair approximation before the unfactoreds above.

35:00 (Melbu) + 12:17 (buff for Melbu) = 47:17

That's 3:17 over my 44:00 (time without doing anything extra). I don't have to tell any of you to take this with a grain of salt- it assumes a lot. But it also has some factuality. Take from it what you will. *awaits hopefully constructive lambasting*

P.S.: These calculations were done before Raelcun's last post.

Just lost my post... *sigh* I'll try to summarize what I wrote then. I did some calculations and came to the conclusion that you'd need to grind at least 29 Crush Dances to get to lvl. 5. The other 51 would only lose about 1 second each as Volcano is 1 second faster. 4 of the 29 grinded Crush Dances would not result in an extra enemy attack. Crush Dance takes about 8 seconds to use instead of defend.

51 + 32 + (25*8) = 283 seconds = 4:43

This calculation doesn't include the extra turns a boss will get because of those purely-grinded Crush Dances. Lenus alone is at least an extra 40 seconds in my mind.

Hex Hammer: To get close to matching Albert, assuming Haschel is at full health, he'd have to have Hex Hammer at lvl. 3. I realize that he's also faster, so he will be doing more damage anyways over the course of the Melbu fight. But I think I remember you getting it to lvl. 3. I figured you'd probably have to purely-grind around 20 additions. You'd be getting necessary damage in with the rest (using my strategies).

20 * 8 = 160 seconds = 2:40

Again, this doesn't include extra boss turns.

Meru D.lvl. 2: Cool Boogie = 8 seconds. I've read in a couple places that 2000 SP (I might be wrong) is required for Meru to reach D.lvl. 2. Level 1 Cool Boogie gives 60 SP + 30 SP if you equip her Pretty Hammer. It would take 23 Cool Boogies to get over 2000 with the Pretty Hammer. With how many turns she's left magicless and has to defend, I'd say you could probably get most of them without extra boss turns.

23 * 8 = 184 seconds = 3:04

Going back for Trans Lights: I simply timed how long it takes Raelcun to get to Fletz and back. Knowing the time could be better, I chopped off 10 seconds.

1:50

Total = 12:17

Things left unfactored: Time saved due to extra damage from additions (not including Melbu). In Dart's case, I don't think there is any time to be saved, especially when you factor in that a boss(es) are going to get more turns from prolonged battles. Same goes for Hachel, although you would probably grind Dart and Haschel at the simultaneously, so their wouldn't be as much boss attack time applied to Haschel (I know I didn't explain this very well). Meru's Cool Boogie is so weak that she barely contributes to how fast a boss will go, but nevertheless, she may shave a bit off her 3:04.

The other thing left unfactored is the extra boss turns I mentioned. The biggest offender would almost definitely be Lenus (not even included in the 25 extra additions). It's bad enough that Crush Dance does less damage than Volcano at this point, which means more character turns and consequently more Lenus turns, but she can screw you over with double turns as well. I imagine this battle would be an extra 30 seconds at the very least, especially if you haven't grinded Crush Dance past lvl.1 yet. And Haschel needs to purely-grind around 20 additions near the end of the game.

This is all conjecture, of course. I don't know if Raelcun still grinds Crush Dance up to lvl. 5, how high he levels Hex Hammer, or if any of his plans have changed. I'm just going off of what I remember from the little bit I've watched and heard from Raelcun. And I probably didn't account for everything in my calculations. But if the amount of needed-grind-additions and other points are correct, then I think 12:17 is a fair approximation before the unfactoreds above.

35:00 (Melbu) + 12:17 (buff for Melbu) = 47:17

That's 3:17 over my 44:00 (time without doing anything extra). I don't have to tell any of you to take this with a grain of salt- it assumes a lot. But it also has some factuality. Take from it what you will. *awaits hopefully constructive lambasting*

P.S.: These calculations were done before Raelcun's last post.

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-03-08 10:11:23 pm

2013-03-08 10:07:37 pm

We require more minerals

Ignoring the post before becuase... fuck my brain hurts..

Pretty hammer doubles SP not +50%, so, she gets 120 per cool boogie and she only uses it during the imago fight when she's doing damage instead of guarding.

Crush dance only gets to level 4 and no grinding is required at all as he gets there on the Imago fight.

Hex hammer gets enough incidental hits along the way that he can get it there on the Imago fight alone.

I've told you in the past that there is basically no grinding anymore so your post is pretty much completely unnecessary. Meru gets some SP from previous fights (Windigo) and a few other incidental hits to finish off low health enemies (forced fights in the pirate ship) So she only needs to do 14-15 hits to get to D Level 2 and allow more freezing rings usable at the end stretch of the game (backup plan in case things go bad)

Your concerns over the Lenus fight are completely invalid I've tried to tell you this multiple times. Dart and Albert together do the same amount of damage as Dart and Haschel when they both physically attack and Haschels speed allows him to do this more often than Albert can. This means in general I should be saving time on the Lenus fight especially since you have already talked about how you don't even attack with Albert most of the time. Keep in mind that I did this on a test run where I used Gust of Wind Dance at every single opportunity, something which you said you don't do so your Albert is probably doing even less damage than mine was on the test run.

So remove the time from Dart completely. Hex Hammer is done DURING A BOSS FIGHT. Something I've told you multiple times, and Cool boogie times are significantly lower than you estimated. Plus cool boogies are done instead of having her guard, which means you need to keep in mind that guarding generates more turns for the character who is guarding so your math in regard to the amount of time spent over guarding isn't perfect.

Add onto all of this the fact that you say you're skipping the trip back to fletz... that means if you pick up attack items in the moon to use in boss fights the animations take longer for less damage in each instance that you throw them.

Did you account that into your damage? Or take into account that it allows me to not lose tons of damage on Melbu phase 2 when he sucks in Dart or Haschel? With the extra trans lights Meru has enough extra attack items to throw them in phase 2 when she's left out there instead of doing ~90 with her hammer and not having one of my major damage dealers. This means that I get consistent damage in phase 2 no matter who he absorbs and have a chance of him only sucking in one character if the right things happen.

Not to mention the fact that I can use trans lights on the final phase of Imago to speed it up, on Zieg as well and as a backup plan in case the Psyche Bomb misses on the Archangel. If you are indeed skipping the shopping trip before Mayfil you are minus a large amount of damage on the bosses in the moon. Did you account for that in your calculations?

Ignoring the post before becuase... fuck my brain hurts..

Pretty hammer doubles SP not +50%, so, she gets 120 per cool boogie and she only uses it during the imago fight when she's doing damage instead of guarding.

Crush dance only gets to level 4 and no grinding is required at all as he gets there on the Imago fight.

Hex hammer gets enough incidental hits along the way that he can get it there on the Imago fight alone.

I've told you in the past that there is basically no grinding anymore so your post is pretty much completely unnecessary. Meru gets some SP from previous fights (Windigo) and a few other incidental hits to finish off low health enemies (forced fights in the pirate ship) So she only needs to do 14-15 hits to get to D Level 2 and allow more freezing rings usable at the end stretch of the game (backup plan in case things go bad)

Your concerns over the Lenus fight are completely invalid I've tried to tell you this multiple times. Dart and Albert together do the same amount of damage as Dart and Haschel when they both physically attack and Haschels speed allows him to do this more often than Albert can. This means in general I should be saving time on the Lenus fight especially since you have already talked about how you don't even attack with Albert most of the time. Keep in mind that I did this on a test run where I used Gust of Wind Dance at every single opportunity, something which you said you don't do so your Albert is probably doing even less damage than mine was on the test run.

So remove the time from Dart completely. Hex Hammer is done DURING A BOSS FIGHT. Something I've told you multiple times, and Cool boogie times are significantly lower than you estimated. Plus cool boogies are done instead of having her guard, which means you need to keep in mind that guarding generates more turns for the character who is guarding so your math in regard to the amount of time spent over guarding isn't perfect.

Add onto all of this the fact that you say you're skipping the trip back to fletz... that means if you pick up attack items in the moon to use in boss fights the animations take longer for less damage in each instance that you throw them.

Did you account that into your damage? Or take into account that it allows me to not lose tons of damage on Melbu phase 2 when he sucks in Dart or Haschel? With the extra trans lights Meru has enough extra attack items to throw them in phase 2 when she's left out there instead of doing ~90 with her hammer and not having one of my major damage dealers. This means that I get consistent damage in phase 2 no matter who he absorbs and have a chance of him only sucking in one character if the right things happen.

Not to mention the fact that I can use trans lights on the final phase of Imago to speed it up, on Zieg as well and as a backup plan in case the Psyche Bomb misses on the Archangel. If you are indeed skipping the shopping trip before Mayfil you are minus a large amount of damage on the bosses in the moon. Did you account for that in your calculations?

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:22:44 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:22:13 pm

2013-03-08 10:15:28 pm

I run for fun :)

Ok, just to get this out of the way, it doesn't matter if you've told me something a bunch of times if I don't remember it. So saying that you've told me something "multiple times" is as much a waste of time as my calculations above. Now on to the good.

I'm glad you picked apart my calculations. Didn't realize that about Pretty Hammer. Crush Dance lvl. 4, Hex Hammer lvl. 3, got it. When do you get Hex Hammer? With my current times, it's hard to believe you can get it that high without wasting at least a little time. Probably negligible though.

-20 additions with Dart. That does nearly erase the grinding time.

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-03-08 10:16:57 pm

2013-03-08 10:16:33 pm

We require more minerals

Quote:

Ok, just to get this out of the way, it doesn't matter if you've told me something a bunch of times if I don't remember it. So saying that you've told me something "multiple times" is as much a waste of time as my calculations above.

I keep bringing it up because it means YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME.

What is the point of talking to you if you don't listen to half of what I say?

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:31:20 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:29:41 pm

2013-03-08 10:23:32 pm

I run for fun :)

I am listening, you're just not accepting. Anyways.

Assuming I use Haschel, I could imitate your strategy and it would go faster because of Volcano, correct? Did I ever say you were grinding Haschel outside of a boss fight? No.

Your points about going back to Fletz are valid. TLs do take less time. I will take a closer look at that.

You're doing a great job explaining this to me... now can we be a little more civil?

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-03-08 10:38:39 pm

2013-03-08 10:37:00 pm

We require more minerals

It's not just about having Trans Lights instead of the other attack items, it's about having MORE. If you don't go back to fletz you're out of charm potions pretty quickly anyway so we're both going to hit encounters in the moon. The difference being that carrying a large wad of TLs into the moon means I have way more to spend. I can throw 3 at Zackwell and still have more than enough for what I need.

edit; Might I reiterate what you just said

Quote:

I doubt there are that many tiny mistakes though- I've planned almost the entire game down to controller inputs in the menus (battles, party, shop, etc.)

Do you see my point now?

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:45:19 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:43:07 pm

The2012Robot: 2013-03-08 10:42:21 pm

2013-03-08 10:39:57 pm

I run for fun :)

I have just enough CPs to make it to the end of the game without a random battle. Your way is to sacrifice CPs for more magic. How much magic do you have for Melbu? My inventory is 100% full up to the Super Virage, at which point I have no CPs left (of course). I use TLs on Zackwell too.

Edit: I have 8 magic items and PBX left for Melbu.

Raelcun

2013-03-08 11:06:44 pm

We require more minerals

How is that even possible?

32 item slots.

If you didn't buy at Fletz then you had to refill at the item shop in Zenebatos to 32/32 items. Where do you get your trans lights from? Assuming that you restocked at Fletz first, some are going to get used on the Last Kraken, as well as space needed to pick up fire attack items in Aglis to speed up that fight.

To do last kraken as fast as possible I use 5 Trans Lights, 2 burnouts and the psyche bomb. That's 7 slots of inventory right there so there are 25/32 left

If you have any Angel's prayers for SS safety (I usually carry 2) then you're down to 23/32

Using Charm Potions through Aglis is difficult because you can't buy them at Rouge so you had to use 2 on the boat to get to Aglis. 21/32

Aglis itself takes 7-8 Charm potions I'll be generous and say 7 14/32

You're going to have to have at least some healing items bare minimum would be around 6 so you're down to 8/32 slots left for trans lights to use through the rest of the game in a perfect world.

You use 3 of those Translights on Zackwell, and don't use one of the executioner so you now have 5 left. If you don't use any on Imago then it will be painfully slow. Minimum to use there would be 2 so you have 3 left in the very best case scenario. If any of my numbers prior to this are off then you're taking extra turns from Zieg with potential for him to waste time by using the dragon.

That's not even getting into the charm potion count. If you DO have 8 left going into mayfil and assuming you still have 2 Angel's Prayers then that's 10 item slots being taken up by that alone. 10/32

You'll have 4 healing rains 14/32

Any healing items (again being super generous) 20/32

So you have 12 charm potions? Those aren't sold in the shop on the moon so you're saying that you used 12 charm potions from Zenebatos to the end of the game?

I know for a fact you'll get into 2 encounters in Mayfil when you push the step count as far as you can that's 2/12

You're going to get a minimum of 5 encounters even getting to the moon 7/12

You're going to get 2 on the way to Miranda's boss 9/12

You can get to the inn with luck and not have an encounter. So you have 3 CPs left for the ENTIRE moon?

Where is your inventory space coming from? You say that you have 8 Trans Lights by Melbu? Okay so you're not using them on Imago? That's 3 more? You're at 6 with no backup plan for Archangel, do you throw less at the Last Kraken?

The issue here is that the trans light count isn't super important. What's important is that if you're carrying even MORE trans lights than what I thought then you have even less Charm Potions. Your claim that you have no random encounters does not seem possible in any way shape or form.

The only way this would be possible is if you carried zero healing items through Mayfil and Imago. Now this could work if you had Level 2 Meru D.Level to use Rainbow Breath, but that's something you've clearly stated that you don't do and it wastes time.

How is that even possible?

32 item slots.

If you didn't buy at Fletz then you had to refill at the item shop in Zenebatos to 32/32 items. Where do you get your trans lights from? Assuming that you restocked at Fletz first, some are going to get used on the Last Kraken, as well as space needed to pick up fire attack items in Aglis to speed up that fight.

To do last kraken as fast as possible I use 5 Trans Lights, 2 burnouts and the psyche bomb. That's 7 slots of inventory right there so there are 25/32 left

If you have any Angel's prayers for SS safety (I usually carry 2) then you're down to 23/32

Using Charm Potions through Aglis is difficult because you can't buy them at Rouge so you had to use 2 on the boat to get to Aglis. 21/32

Aglis itself takes 7-8 Charm potions I'll be generous and say 7 14/32

You're going to have to have at least some healing items bare minimum would be around 6 so you're down to 8/32 slots left for trans lights to use through the rest of the game in a perfect world.

You use 3 of those Translights on Zackwell, and don't use one of the executioner so you now have 5 left. If you don't use any on Imago then it will be painfully slow. Minimum to use there would be 2 so you have 3 left in the very best case scenario. If any of my numbers prior to this are off then you're taking extra turns from Zieg with potential for him to waste time by using the dragon.

That's not even getting into the charm potion count. If you DO have 8 left going into mayfil and assuming you still have 2 Angel's Prayers then that's 10 item slots being taken up by that alone. 10/32

You'll have 4 healing rains 14/32

Any healing items (again being super generous) 20/32

So you have 12 charm potions? Those aren't sold in the shop on the moon so you're saying that you used 12 charm potions from Zenebatos to the end of the game?

I know for a fact you'll get into 2 encounters in Mayfil when you push the step count as far as you can that's 2/12

You're going to get a minimum of 5 encounters even getting to the moon 7/12

You're going to get 2 on the way to Miranda's boss 9/12

You can get to the inn with luck and not have an encounter. So you have 3 CPs left for the ENTIRE moon?

Where is your inventory space coming from? You say that you have 8 Trans Lights by Melbu? Okay so you're not using them on Imago? That's 3 more? You're at 6 with no backup plan for Archangel, do you throw less at the Last Kraken?

The issue here is that the trans light count isn't super important. What's important is that if you're carrying even MORE trans lights than what I thought then you have even less Charm Potions. Your claim that you have no random encounters does not seem possible in any way shape or form.

The only way this would be possible is if you carried zero healing items through Mayfil and Imago. Now this could work if you had Level 2 Meru D.Level to use Rainbow Breath, but that's something you've clearly stated that you don't do and it wastes time.

The2012Robot

Edit history:

The2012Robot: 2013-03-09 01:02:42 am

The2012Robot: 2013-03-09 12:59:25 am

2013-03-08 11:13:44 pm

I run for fun :)

Before I go to Rouge, I buy 11 CPs and 16 TLs. I also have 1 Burn Out along with the repeat items. 32/32

Fletz to Rouge is 2 CPs. 30/32

Grab Burnout and HB in Aglis, which takes me 9 CPs total (you can get through with less? I'll have to run through Aglis yet again). Looking at my notes, I'm not entirely sure, but I think I use 5 TLs and 2 BOs on Last Kraken (again, I'll have to test this, but I'm pretty sure it's correct without wasting Meru turns). I use the HB afterward. 15/32

Zenebatos: Grab 5 of the 6 magic items here. Buy 10 CPs and 2 HBs. Use 2 CPs. I do use 1 TL on K+V+S (sorry if I ever said I didn't). Use 2 HBs afterwards. 27/32

Mayfil: No CPs used. Use menu delay to get through (not that much time wasted). Grab HR. Use 5 TLs (using 3? I will test this) on L+Z. Zackwell gives HR. Grab Spectral Flash. 24/32

TMTNS: Use 3 CPs up to Imago. Use 5 "powerful" attack items (gained from treasure and not using Frozen Jet) on Imago. Imago gives SR, MS, and HR. 1 CPs to get to old-Bale. 18/32

(Continued): Grab 3 magic items and use 2 CPs before last shop before Doel. Sell MS. Buy 1 HF, 11 HB/HRs total, 2 APs. 32/32

(Continued...): Use CP right next to the last magic to be able to pick it up and reach the end of the game. Use 1 HB before Super Virage (I only use PBX on him). Use 1 HB before Zieg (2 Frozen Jets on him). This leaves me with 5 TLs, 3 "powerful"s, PBX, 1 HF, 9 HB/HRs, and 2 APs (if I don't have to use any healing items on Zieg).

And no, I'm not menu delaying all the way across screens.

Before I go to Rouge, I buy 11 CPs and 16 TLs. I also have 1 Burn Out along with the repeat items. 32/32

Fletz to Rouge is 2 CPs. 30/32

Grab Burnout and HB in Aglis, which takes me 9 CPs total (you can get through with less? I'll have to run through Aglis yet again). Looking at my notes, I'm not entirely sure, but I think I use 5 TLs and 2 BOs on Last Kraken (again, I'll have to test this, but I'm pretty sure it's correct without wasting Meru turns). I use the HB afterward. 15/32

Zenebatos: Grab 5 of the 6 magic items here. Buy 10 CPs and 2 HBs. Use 2 CPs. I do use 1 TL on K+V+S (sorry if I ever said I didn't). Use 2 HBs afterwards. 27/32

Mayfil: No CPs used. Use menu delay to get through (not that much time wasted). Grab HR. Use 5 TLs (using 3? I will test this) on L+Z. Zackwell gives HR. Grab Spectral Flash. 24/32

TMTNS: Use 3 CPs up to Imago. Use 5 "powerful" attack items (gained from treasure and not using Frozen Jet) on Imago. Imago gives SR, MS, and HR. 1 CPs to get to old-Bale. 18/32

(Continued): Grab 3 magic items and use 2 CPs before last shop before Doel. Sell MS. Buy 1 HF, 11 HB/HRs total, 2 APs. 32/32

(Continued...): Use CP right next to the last magic to be able to pick it up and reach the end of the game. Use 1 HB before Super Virage (I only use PBX on him). Use 1 HB before Zieg (2 Frozen Jets on him). This leaves me with 5 TLs, 3 "powerful"s, PBX, 1 HF, 9 HB/HRs, and 2 APs (if I don't have to use any healing items on Zieg).

And no, I'm not menu delaying all the way across screens.