Super Mario World 11-exit Improvement

2006-07-09 10:39:55 pm

Thegreginator and I tried some runs today but didn't get anything worth keeping. We were starting to get much closer but my mom came to pick me up without telling me she was coming so our session was cut short. I am going out of town tomorrow morning and I won't be back for 4 weeks! I am visiting my dad in Nashville but I am going to bring my snes so I can still practice. In this time I'm going to work endlessly to see if a 259 is possible in donut secret 1. If not I will try to perfect 258. I will also play Yoshi's Island 2 as much as I can until I can make it consistent(you may be wondering what the hell I am talking about since it is one of the easiest levels in the game but you will see what I mean).

By the time I get back we should have our levels completely perfected and consistent enough to be able to get our run recorded fairly soon.

I will have internet access for most of the time but I'm not sure if I will be able to get on the computer that often. If I find any new breakthroughs or cool strategies I will be sure to post them and hopefully imagevenue will work on that computer so I can post some pictures.

Thegreginator and I tried some runs today but didn't get anything worth keeping.  We were starting to get much closer but my mom came to pick me up without telling me she was coming so our session was cut short.  I am going out of town tomorrow morning and I won't be back for 4 weeks!  I am visiting my dad in Nashville but I am going to bring my snes so I can still practice.  In this time I'm going to work endlessly to see if a 259 is possible in donut secret 1.  If not I will try to perfect 258.  I will also play Yoshi's Island 2 as much as I can until I can make it consistent(you may be wondering what the hell I am talking about since it is one of the easiest levels in the game but you will see what I mean).

By the time I get back we should have our levels completely perfected and consistent enough to be able to get our run recorded fairly soon.

I will have internet access for most of the time but I'm not sure if I will be able to get on the computer that often.  If I find any new breakthroughs or cool strategies I will be sure to post them and hopefully imagevenue will work on that computer so I can post some pictures.

skamastaG

2006-07-13 05:36:26 am

I just entered the dark room at 374! Thegreginator and I always get a 273 but we have watched the tool-assisted runs many, many times and they all get in at 374 so I knew it was possible.
Thegreginator, we have two choices. Either you practice this until you can get 374(I was as far right as I could be when the spikes came up. I am sure if you run from the left side you can accelerate faster but it is not necessary in order to get 374.) or I can practice the dark room.
The first choice is much better because learning the whole dark room is much harder then just learning the last part of door 5.

As for other levels, I have tried other routes to make sure we didn't overlook any faster strategies. I tried to see if SW4 could be done faster if you grab a shell to open the key sooner. I didn't succeed. I grabbed a shell and continued flight a few times but didn't make it to the key. Other times I just tested opening the key without worrying about time. I couldn't get it right. I could open it but couldn't make it back to the platform. I also tried something in YI4 but that was a horrible idea.

I just want to keep our levels the way they are so we don't need to learn new things and can get a recording done sooner, which is why I want thegreginator to get door 5 down. Tell me if I should practice the dark room.

I just entered the dark room at 374!  Thegreginator and I always get a 273 but we have watched the tool-assisted runs many, many times and they all get in at 374 so I knew it was possible.  
Thegreginator, we have two choices.  Either you practice this until you can get 374(I was as far right as I could be when the spikes came up.  I am sure if you run from the left side you can accelerate faster but it is not necessary in order to get 374.) or I can practice the dark room.  
The first choice is much better because learning the whole dark room is much harder then just learning the last part of door 5.

As for other levels, I have tried other routes to make sure we didn't overlook any faster strategies.  I tried to see if SW4 could be done faster if you grab a shell to open the key sooner.  I didn't succeed.  I grabbed a shell and continued flight a few times but didn't make it to the key.  Other times I just tested opening the key without worrying about time.  I couldn't get it right.  I could open it but couldn't make it back to the platform.  I also tried something in YI4 but that was a horrible idea.

I just want to keep our levels the way they are so we don't need to learn new things and can get a recording done sooner, which is why I want thegreginator to get door 5 down.  Tell me if I should practice the dark room.

thegreginator

Edit history:

thegreginator: 2006-07-13 06:14:14 am

2006-07-13 06:12:36 am

I can just practice door 5, it should be easier than you learning the dark room. Are you saying you didnt get any run up before going under the spike? You just stood there right next to it and got under as soon as possible? If so, it shouldnt be too hard.

For DS1, I watched JXQ's video on snes9x with the option showing what buttons were pressed. He presses back for a split second right as he's level with the ? block and doesn't ever press it again after that. Also, I think a spin jump flight is a tiny bit faster then normal flight because when you land on the pipe, you usually have to go right a tiny bit before you can go down the pipe (you cant go down it when you're on the egde of it). Making this small movement to the right is faster with a spin jump flight because it allows you to keep your speed.

For SW4, releasing the shell while keeping flight is frame precise and would be very hard to do on console. That plus the added difficulty of grabbing the shell while remaining flying would make our success rate go down too far for not enough time gained, so I dont think it's a good idea.

My Super Smart Joy came in the mail today but I cant get it to work with snes9x. Sad

Also, I took digital camera videos of my Special World small levels. I'll post the links to them soon on the Individual Level Runs topic.

I can just practice door 5, it should be easier than you learning the dark room.  Are you saying you didnt get any run up before going under the spike?  You just stood there right next to it and got under as soon as possible?  If so, it shouldnt be too hard.

For DS1, I watched JXQ's video on snes9x with the option showing what buttons were pressed.  He presses back for a split second right as he's level with the ? block and doesn't ever press it again after that.  Also, I think a spin jump flight is a tiny bit faster then normal flight because when you land on the pipe, you usually have to go right a tiny bit before you can go down the pipe (you cant go down it when you're on the egde of it).  Making this small movement to the right is faster with a spin jump flight because it allows you to keep your speed.

For SW4, releasing the shell while keeping flight is frame precise and would be very hard to do on console.  That plus the added difficulty of grabbing the shell while remaining flying would make our success rate go down too far for not enough time gained, so I dont think it's a good idea.

My Super Smart Joy came in the mail today but I cant get it to work with snes9x. :(  Also, I took digital camera videos of my Special World small levels.  I'll post the links to them soon on the Individual Level Runs topic.

Fabian

2006-07-13 06:54:33 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

About DS1, when getting the shell, the fastest (frame perfect) method is indeed to spinfly. Whether or not spinflying is faster under regular console running circumstances I don't know of course, but I would guess so.

About the ? block at the keyhole, doing exactly like JXQ did isn't necessary for achieving the same time. What I mean is, in many/most cases you need to do exactly the same stuff to avoid losing time, but this situation isn't one of them. I did the ending slightly differently in my 96 exit TAS for example. So my point is, do whatever works best for you, and don't worry too much about how JXQ does it.

You guys seem very concerned with timeunits in general, and while I do think it's great you're working so hard, it's also important to remember that with the way a run is timed, reaching the dark room at 374 instead of 373 is still just a 0.1 (or whatever) second improvement. Fadeout lag and flying speed will have a far, far greater (and random) impact on any run like this.

jimsfriend

2006-07-13 07:13:36 pm

Like A Fox

Not if you are insane and make sure you get a certain amount of points in each level. But anyway, we go for time units because that is what we can see. If you don't know how the randomness will affect speed, you might as well make everything you can tell the difference of as fast as possible, right?

Fabian

2006-07-13 07:28:48 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

Not if you are insane and make sure you get a certain amount of points in each level. But anyway, we go for time units because that is what we can see. If you don't know how the randomness will affect speed, you might as well make everything you can tell the difference of as fast as possible, right?

Absolutely, I guess I should have left the last sentence out. It was pretty irrelevant.

jimsfriend

2006-07-13 08:15:24 pm

Like A Fox

Also, runs where the faster time unit are gotten are more likely to impress the viewer. If they got the slower time unit because it is silly to worry about the .1 or less seconds then someone who watched it might think "Hey, why didn't they get 362 instead of 361? I think I'll beat their run". Or whatever. The improvement wouldn't be much, it is more work for nate, and it could have easily been avoided.

thegreginator

2006-07-13 10:04:09 pm

I agree with jimsfriend about the aesthetic value of a better timeunit. When I saw JXQ's video for the first time, I almost cried when I saw the 361 on YI2. It wasnt that much better than a 360 in real time, but just the fact that someone did better than 360 on YI2 was crazy to me.

skamastaG

2006-07-14 08:34:16 am

Yeah, that's correct thegreginator. I just stand as far right as I can before the spikes come up. I also press select while running to get rid of the mushroom so I don't accidentally pick it up.

I think I have the shell throw-and-regrab trick down in DS1. I only do one throw but it still saves a little bit of time and it looks cooler than nothing. A 259 doesn't look very possible unless I can get that 275 in the pipe which I am almost 100% positive is impossible. It usually turns into 274 the exact moment I touch the pipe.

You know how I said I was trying different routes for levels, I think I actually got one to work. Using it I got a 362 on DP1 without even doing a kamikaze dive at the key. With that and fast flying I think a 263 might be possible. Here's what I do: I do the TAS method for grabbing the cape at the beginning. I can't do the ending the way they do it by flying between the pipes so I just kamikaze dive to the ground after the piranha and chuck before the midway gate and get flight again there. This gets me high enough to go over the pipe. Although getting p-run back up again after the dive may appear slow, the cape grab at the beginning actually makes up for it. I was shocked because I thought it would be slower, but I was wrong. The cape grab is rather risky and I said I wanted to keep things the same, but I can't pass up an oppurtunity for speed. Wink

With practice I can definetly get the cape grab down unless thegreginator can already do it easily. Tell me what you think(If we should do it or not). I will keep practicing to see if 363 is possible.
It might be more frustration than it is worth if it only saves one unit which, like fabian said, could only be .1 seconds and wouldn't even affect our overall time. If thegreginator can get 362 the old way then we should do that because it is easy, but if either of us can manage a 363 than I say we go for it.
I agree that better timeunits on levels are more impressive to viewers, which is why I am trying to get the best possible times on each level.
I also found another way for SW1 which might make 291 possible but I'm still working on it.

Yeah, that's correct thegreginator.  I just stand as far right as I can before the spikes come up.  I also press select while running to get rid of the mushroom so I don't accidentally pick it up.

I think I have the shell throw-and-regrab trick down in DS1.  I only do one throw but it still saves a little bit of time and it looks cooler than nothing.  A 259 doesn't look very possible unless I can get that 275 in the pipe which I am almost 100% positive is impossible.  It usually turns into 274 the exact moment I touch the pipe.

You know how I said I was trying different routes for levels, I think I actually got one to work.  Using it I got a 362 on DP1 without even doing a kamikaze dive at the key.  With that and fast flying I think a 263 might be possible.  Here's what I do:  I do the TAS method for grabbing the cape at the beginning.  I can't do the ending the way they do it by flying between the pipes so I just kamikaze dive to the ground after the piranha and chuck before the midway gate and get flight again there.  This gets me high enough to go over the pipe.  Although getting p-run back up again after the dive may appear slow, the cape grab at the beginning actually makes up for it.  I was shocked because I thought it would be slower, but I was wrong.  The cape grab is rather risky and I said I wanted to keep things the same, but I can't pass up an oppurtunity for speed.  ;)  With practice I can definetly get the cape grab down unless thegreginator can already do it easily.  Tell me what you think(If we should do it or not).  I will keep practicing to see if 363 is possible.
It might be more frustration than it is worth if it only saves one unit which, like fabian said, could only be .1 seconds and wouldn't even affect our overall time.  If thegreginator can get 362 the old way then we should do that because it is easy, but if either of us can manage a 363 than I say we go for it.  
I agree that better timeunits on levels are more impressive to viewers, which is why I am trying to get the best possible times on each level. 
I also found another way for SW1 which might make 291 possible but I'm still working on it.

thegreginator

Edit history:

thegreginator: 2006-07-14 07:13:22 pm

2006-07-14 06:07:05 pm

Yeah we should definately go for a 363 on DP1 if it's possible. I'm already decent at the TAS cape grab, so I'll practice for the 363, but it cant hurt if you work on it too. Another possible route for this level: get the cape the TAS way and then kamikaze into the platform near the end of the level where the 4 caped koopas fly at you at once. Get your run there and spin jump fly straight up to the key. Here is a picture. It might not be as fast as your method, but it's worth testing. When testing the different methods, you should probably never press forward so you're not doing fast flying so that doesnt skew the results (you dont want to accidently do really good fast flying for one method and bad fast flying for another). Keep up the good work, sounds like you're making awesome progress!

EDIT: Also try to see which is faster: kamikaze diving into the ground, or just stopping your flight by momentarliy letting go of Y. For your method, you can also fly into the pirhana plant, which causes Mario to lose his flight and land perfectly on the ground, ready to get his run back.

Yeah we should definately go for a 363 on DP1 if it's possible.  I'm already decent at the TAS cape grab, so I'll practice for the 363, but it cant hurt if you work on it too.  Another possible route for this level: get the cape the TAS way and then kamikaze into the platform near the end of the level where the 4 caped koopas fly at you at once.  Get your run there and spin jump fly straight up to the key.  [url=http://img144.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=82851_DP1_423lo.JPG]Here[/url] is a picture.  It might not be as fast as your method, but it's worth testing.  When testing the different methods, you should probably never press forward so you're not doing fast flying so that doesnt skew the results (you dont want to accidently do really good fast flying for one method and bad fast flying for another).  Keep up the good work, sounds like you're making awesome progress!

EDIT: Also try to see which is faster: kamikaze diving into the ground, or just stopping your flight by momentarliy letting go of Y.  For your method, you can also fly into the pirhana plant, which causes Mario to lose his flight and land perfectly on the ground, ready to get his run back.

skamastaG

Edit history:

skamastaG: 2006-07-14 07:43:02 pm

2006-07-14 07:36:30 pm

Yeah I already tested between kamikaze and letting go of y. When you let go of y you lose your speed and have to get it all back. With kamikaze you still retain your speed while diving to the ground so I think that way is faster. I have hit that piranha a few times and it worked fine but I haven't tested to see if it was faster. I don't know what is faster between your route and mine but I don't think mine is very good. I should kamikaze later in the level onto a higher platform. This lets me start flying sooner and lets me avoid that block above that cloud. It messed me up so many times. Angry

Maybe I can do that last platform with the fire plant(?) before the koopas and I might be able to fly between the pipes. It will be easier because I will be able to see what I am doing. I will post back after trying this out.

Thegreginator, don't forget to practice DSH. Try to get in the door at _86 and see if the circles are still good enough to beat _38.

EDIT: I also wanted to ask if it is weird that when I do the cape grab I always catch huge air. I don't catch enough to go over the pipe, but I do catch enough to hit that damn block if I am trying to get high enough.

Yeah I already tested between kamikaze and letting go of y.  When you let go of y you lose your speed and have to get it all back.  With kamikaze you still retain your speed while diving to the ground so I think that way is faster.  I have hit that piranha a few times and it worked fine but I haven't tested to see if it was faster.  I don't know what is faster between your route and mine but I don't think mine is very good.  I should kamikaze later in the level onto a higher platform.  This lets me start flying sooner and lets me avoid that block above that cloud.  It messed me up so many times. >:(  
Maybe I can do that last platform with the fire plant(?) before the koopas and I might be able to fly between the pipes.  It will be easier because I will be able to see what I am doing.  I will post back after trying this out.

Thegreginator, don't forget to practice DSH.  Try to get in the door at _86 and see if the circles are still good enough to beat _38.

EDIT:  I also wanted to ask if it is weird that when I do the cape grab I always catch huge air.  I don't catch enough to go over the pipe, but I do catch enough to hit that damn block if I am trying to get high enough.

thegreginator

Edit history:

thegreginator: 2006-07-14 08:19:55 pm

2006-07-14 08:18:11 pm

Yeah you're right kamikaze is faster than letting go of Y. I have gotten a 262 using both your method and mine, but I have gotten the 262 far more consistently using my method. This is because you only have to get lucky with the fast flying once with my method, whereas on yours you have to get lucky with the fast flying twice. The 262 for my method is even more consistent than getting a 262 the "traditional" way, so I think I will do this method in the run (or some variation of it if we find something). I dont think a 363 is possible with either new method, but I could be wrong. When I grab the cape the TAS way, I know what you are talking about when you say you get a ton of air. I have only done this once or twice on accident, usually I dont get air. Are you saying that when you "get air" when grabbing the cape you make it high enough to get to the block without ever touching the ground? If so, then you should be able to make it over the pipe. I have made it over the pipe before while going under the block, so I'm almost positive it's possible. If it is possible (it should be), we could get the cape the TAS way, never touch the ground, and make it over the pipe. This would be very likely to yield a 363. We should both work on doing this. Do you have any tips for how to "get air" when grabbing the cape (I cant do it when I try)?

For DGH, when I get in the door at 386, the second circle is not perfect, but it still works (you have to press back a little bit to get through). Getting in at 386 should give me a 339, but I need a lot more practice to get in a 386 consistently. I'll work on it more. I'll also work on flying through the stairs, but I've never done it even once, so no promises.

Yeah you're right kamikaze is faster than letting go of Y.  I have gotten a 262 using both your method and mine, but I have gotten the 262 far more consistently using my method.  This is because you only have to get lucky with the fast flying once with my method, whereas on yours you have to get lucky with the fast flying twice.  The 262 for my method is even more consistent than getting a 262 the "traditional" way, so I think I will do this method in the run (or some variation of it if we find something).  I dont think a 363 is possible with either new method, but I could be wrong.  When I grab the cape the TAS way, I know what you are talking about when you say you get a ton of air.  I have only done this once or twice on accident, usually I dont get air.  Are you saying that when you "get air" when grabbing the cape you make it high enough to get to the block without ever touching the ground?  If so, then you should be able to make it over the pipe.  I have made it over the pipe before while going under the block, so I'm almost positive it's possible.  If it is possible (it should be), we could get the cape the TAS way, never touch the ground, and make it over the pipe.  This would be very likely to yield a 363.  We should both work on doing this.  Do you have any tips for how to "get air" when grabbing the cape (I cant do it when I try)?

For DGH, when I get in the door at 386, the second circle is not perfect, but it still works (you have to press back a little bit to get through).  Getting in at 386 should give me a 339, but I need a lot more practice to get in a 386 consistently.  I'll work on it more.  I'll also work on flying through the stairs, but I've never done it even once, so no promises.

jimsfriend

2006-07-14 08:29:55 pm

Like A Fox

So you won't be sending it to TG?

skamastaG

2006-07-14 08:53:54 pm

This is what I think might cause mario to catch a lot of air: Going into the cape from the left. If you are to the left then you have to press right to get into it. Since you have run it resembles a kamikaze dive even though you don't have a cape. When you get the cape press back and you get the aircatching effect a kamikaze dive would give. Make sure you get the cape first before pressing left so you don't fly to the left. What you(thegreginator) are probably doing is jumping off the koopa getting the cape and and then holding right afterward to make sure you go in the right direction, am I right? I hope you undersatnd this. It is just a theory and it was all I could think of.

I don't think I can fly over the pipe that way. I am pretty sure I can't because it isn't visible on the screen and I am not sure but I don't believe mario can't go any higher than what is visible in the screen. I do however think i might be able to go between the pipes as it is visible so it might be easy. I will test it out. I am pretty sure 363 is possible this way.

This is what I think might cause mario to catch a lot of air:  Going into the cape from the left.  If you are to the left then you have to press right to get into it.  Since you have run it resembles a kamikaze dive even though you don't have a cape.  When you get the cape press back and you get the aircatching effect a kamikaze dive would give.  Make sure you get the cape first before pressing left so you don't fly to the left.  What you(thegreginator) are probably doing is jumping off the koopa getting the cape and and then holding right afterward to make sure you go in the right direction, am I right?  I hope you undersatnd this.  It is just a theory and it was all I could think of.

I don't think I can fly over the pipe that way.  I am pretty sure I can't because it isn't visible on the screen and I am not sure but I don't believe mario can't go any higher than what is visible in the screen.  I do however think i might be able to go between the pipes as it is visible so it might be easy.  I will test it out.  I am pretty sure 363 is possible this way.

thegreginator

Edit history:

thegreginator: 2006-07-15 01:04:43 am

2006-07-14 11:49:49 pm

I dont really understand your explanation of getting air at the beginning.

Quote:

I do however think i might be able to go between the pipes as it is visible so it might be easy.

For me, the pipes arent visible. This is what is visible to me if I grab the cape the TAS way (without getting air) and never touch the ground. Flying above the screen does not make it scroll up. Does getting air at the beginning change this visibility window? If so, by how much (about how many "squares")? Or maybe you mean it's visible because you touch the ground? If you do touch the ground, my method for that is definately the fastest. I have gotten a 362 that is maybe one frame away from a 363, it is soooo close. With this method, I can also bounce off almost every koopa I see. Cheesy

I also tried flying in between the pipes (just like TAS does). I didnt do it in context, I just flew up high enough to have good visibility and kept trying. I was never able to make it with a regular "just press back" flight (I always hit my head on the green pipe or hit my body on the yellow pipe, I think it needs to be frame precise), but I did make it doing a kamikaze dive. For this kamikaze dive, I did not run into the green pipe and then kamikaze, I kamikazeed just before the green pipe and made it through without any part of Mario ever touching a solid surface (I even had a perfect key grab, straight into the keyhole without even touching the ground ;)). The kamikaze was very hard to do though, you have to do be in the perfect position and press down at the perfect time.

Also, dont completely rule out the option of going over the green pipe, just because you cant see it doesnt mean you cant go over it. If this is possible, it will be much easier than trying to fit between the two pipes. Let me know about your visibility window for getting air at the beginning, and dont give up on that 363. I think we can get it!

jimsfriend: We couldnt submit it to TG anyways, because they dont allow two-person runs. I think. Can this be verified? I couldnt find anything about it in the rules. I know they allow things done in 2-player mode (ex: co-op Halo), but switching off levels is a gray area.

I dont really understand your explanation of getting air at the beginning.

[quote]I do however think i might be able to go between the pipes as it is visible so it might be easy.[/quote]

For me, the pipes arent visible.  [url=http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=02541_dp1_visibility_404lo.JPG]This[/url] is what is visible to me if I grab the cape the TAS way (without getting air) and never touch the ground. Flying above the screen does not make it scroll up.  Does getting air at the beginning change this visibility window?  If so, by how much (about how many "squares")?  Or maybe you mean it's visible because you touch the ground? If you do touch the ground, my method for that is definately the fastest.  I have gotten a 362 that is maybe one frame away from a 363, it is soooo close.  With this method, I can also bounce off almost every koopa I see.  :D

I also tried flying in between the pipes (just like TAS does). I didnt do it in context, I just flew up high enough to have good visibility and kept trying.  I was never able to make it with a regular "just press back" flight (I always hit my head on the green pipe or hit my body on the yellow pipe, I think it needs to be frame precise), but I did make it doing a kamikaze dive. For this kamikaze dive, I did not run into the green pipe and then kamikaze, I kamikazeed just before the green pipe and made it through without any part of Mario ever touching a solid surface (I even had a perfect key grab, straight into the keyhole without even touching the ground  ;)).  The kamikaze was very hard to do though, you have to do be in the perfect position and press down at the perfect time.

Also, dont completely rule out the option of going over the green pipe, just because you cant see it doesnt mean you cant go over it.  If this is possible, it will be much easier than trying to fit between the two pipes.  Let me know about your visibility window for getting air at the beginning, and dont give up on that 363.  I think we can get it!

jimsfriend: We couldnt submit it to TG anyways, because they dont allow two-person runs.  I think.  Can this be verified? I couldnt find anything about it in the rules.  I know they allow things done in 2-player mode (ex: co-op Halo), but switching off levels is a gray area.

skamastaG

2006-07-15 12:20:57 am

I asked in the TG forums whether it would be allowed but nobody answered.

I haven't been able to catch air in a while. I have been thinking about it too much. I suck at mario when I focus too hard. I have to be relaxed to play my best which is why I suck at recording. This is also why I can mess up on YI4!!>:(.
When I catch air in the beginning the screen scrolls up a bit. Just high enough where I can fit between the last set of clouds and that block without the block being visible.(if it scrolled one square higher the block would be visible)
I know I can fit between the pipes using my method. I kamikaze onto that platform with the plant right before the column of koopas. The dive kills the plant and I have run just at the end of the platform. I fly up as high as I can, then do a dive and float up right in between the pipes. It is pretty easy to fit in between the pipes but your way is probably faster because I dont get any benefits of fast flying and with your way you can fly a little farther before diving.

I asked in the TG forums whether it would be allowed but nobody answered.

I haven't been able to catch air in a while.  I have been thinking about it too much.  I suck at mario when I focus too hard.  I have to be relaxed to play my best which is why I suck at recording.  This is also why I can mess up on YI4!!>:(.  
When I catch air in the beginning the screen scrolls up a bit.  Just high enough where I can fit between the last set of clouds and that block without the block being visible.(if it scrolled one square higher the block would be visible)
I know I can fit between the pipes using my method.  I kamikaze onto that platform with the plant right before the column of koopas.  The dive kills the plant and I have run just at the end of the platform.  I fly up as high as I can,  then do a dive and float up right in between the pipes.  It is pretty easy to fit in between the pipes but your way is probably faster because I dont get any benefits of fast flying and with your way you can fly a little farther before diving.

thegreginator

2006-07-15 12:49:36 am

Yeah my method would be faster if you're going to kamikaze into the ground. The ideal thing to do would be the following: grab the cape the TAS way and get air. Then fly through the whole level with fast flying. When you get to the pipes, do a kamikaze dive (or just regular flight if you can manage) between them and grab the key. So pretty much, the whole level is the same as the TAS version, except it's slightly easier because catching air at the beginning allows you to see the pipes (as opposed to the TAS way of going between the pipes without being able to see them). I think this would be the easiest and only way for us to get a 363.

skamastaG

2006-07-15 01:27:12 am

I agree unless I can manage to fly over the pipe. That might yield a 363 as well.

Right now I am practicing Castle 5 and am making lots of progress but I will come back to DP1 later and figure something out.

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2006-07-16 02:28:47 pm

2006-07-16 02:23:38 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

" For the Bowser fight, I tried many times to do it caped"

I have practiced this in the past, and it seems that doing it small is the best way. my time only stands at around 12 minutes, i haven't practcied this game much, but i might in the next year.

i forget what the level name is, the one where you can first get the cape...

in that level, i was able to jump onto the caped guy and then managed to not lose speed and bounce off another enemy, flying as high as i could, not being able to see myself and get the key and finish in perfect time. It took many times, I'm sure it is 1-2 game units faster than how they do it in the video now.

EDIT: the greginator, you do it the same way as me i guess, conidering this screenshot. http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=02541_dp1_visibility_404lo.JPG

That is so difficult to do in a speedrun, since you cannot see where you are going.

thegreginator

Edit history:

thegreginator: 2006-07-17 07:11:11 pm

2006-07-17 06:10:38 pm

Okay, I did some work on Donut Ghost House today. I practiced jumping through the first boo circle in order to get into the first door at 386 and then finish with a time of 339 (before I got in the first door at 385 and finished with 338 ). Unfortuneately, jumping through the boo circle is very hard. Just look at this screenshot. As you can see, there is barely enough room to squeeze through. If you're off by the tiniest bit, you wont make it. Luckily I practiced this enough so that I am able to get through about 1 in every 4 times.

To practice this level, using an emulator (snes9x) proved to be very useful. If you practice on console, every time you enter the the level, the boo circle is in a different position. The boo circle only resets when the game is turned off, so on console you'd have to turn the game off and on again every time you wanted to do the level. On an emulator, however, you can just use a savestate with Mario about to enter the Ghost House for the first time (meaning the circle will be in the position it is in during a run). That way, I could practice the level over and over again without the circle changing. When I practiced, I played without slowdown or frame advance or anything like that, and I used my Super Smart Joy controller, so it was pretty much exactly like playing on console, just more convenient. It was also convenient because it allowed me to easily make a video of this level. I recorded both an AVI and a .smv. Here they are:

Donut Ghost House - 339 - AVI

Donut Ghost House - 339 - .smv

For those who dont know, you need the snes9x emulator to play the .smv one. The AVI is really good quality and thus might take a while to download, sorry. It should be noted that the two videos are not the same run, so might have a few small differences between them, but nothing that really affects time.

Notes about the movie(s):
--If you think my p-switch jump could be a bit cleaner, you're probably right, but it still doesnt affect the time you get into the last door.
--For the boo fight, I didnt try to make it entertaining, I just wanted to finish the level.
--Jumping down through the first circle is actually faster than kamikaze diving through it and abusing flight invincibility. Plus it looks cooler. This jump is much easier than the one right after it, I can usually get it every time.
--The horizontal jump through the first boo circle is by far the hardest part of this level. You can tell from the above screenshot that it has to be EXACT. Luckily I figured out exactly how to time it so that when I jumped I would make it through. I did not do a duckjump through the circle for two reasons. First, whenever I did one, I would have to float with the cape to get enough horizontal distance to get through, and floating caused me to always get hit. Second (the main reason) is that you lose your speed when you duckjump and cant get it back until much later. A regular jump can be done through the circle, but with a spin jump it is easier to make the jump low enough to work.

If anyone knows a way that this level could be further improved, let me know.

Okay, I did some work on Donut Ghost House today.  I practiced jumping through the first boo circle in order to get into the first door at 386 and then finish with a time of 339 (before I got in the first door at 385 and finished with 338 ). Unfortuneately, jumping through the boo circle is very hard.  Just look at [url=http://img138.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=78548_DGH_circle_378lo.JPG]this screenshot[/url].  As you can see, there is barely enough room to squeeze through.  If you're off by the tiniest bit, you wont make it.  Luckily I practiced this enough so that I am able to get through about 1 in every 4 times.

To practice this level, using an emulator (snes9x) proved to be very useful.  If you practice on console, every time you enter the the level, the boo circle is in a different position.  The boo circle only resets when the game is turned off, so on console you'd have to turn the game off and on again every time you wanted to do the level.  On an emulator, however, you can just use a savestate with Mario about to enter the Ghost House for the first time (meaning the circle will be in the position it is in during a run).  That way, I could practice the level over and over again without the circle changing.  When I practiced, I played without slowdown or frame advance or anything like that, and I used my Super Smart Joy controller, so it was pretty much exactly like playing on console, just more convenient.  It was also convenient because it allowed me to easily make a video of this level.  I recorded both an AVI and a .smv.  Here they are:

[url=http://files.filefront.com/DGH+Caped+++339avi/;5265710;;/fileinfo.html]Donut Ghost House - 339 - AVI[/url]

[url=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1395/DonutGhostHouse339.smv]Donut Ghost House - 339 - .smv[/url]

For those who dont know, you need the snes9x emulator to play the .smv one.  The AVI is really good quality and thus might take a while to download, sorry.  It should be noted that the two videos are not the same run, so might have a few small differences between them, but nothing that really affects time.

Notes about the movie(s): 
--If you think my p-switch jump could be a bit cleaner, you're probably right, but it still doesnt affect the time you get into the last door.
--For the boo fight, I didnt try to make it entertaining, I just wanted to finish the level.
--Jumping down through the first circle is actually faster than kamikaze diving through it and abusing flight invincibility.  Plus it looks cooler.  This jump is much easier than the one right after it, I can usually get it every time.
--The horizontal jump through the first boo circle is by far the hardest part of this level.  You can tell from the above screenshot that it has to be EXACT.  Luckily I figured out exactly how to time it so that when I jumped I would make it through.  I did not do a duckjump through the circle for two reasons.  First, whenever I did one, I would have to float with the cape to get enough horizontal distance to get through, and floating caused me to always get hit.  Second (the main reason) is that you lose your speed when you duckjump and cant get it back until much later.  A regular jump can be done through the circle, but with a spin jump it is easier to make the jump low enough to work.

If anyone knows a way that this level could be further improved, let me know.

Fabian

2006-07-17 09:54:53 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

It looks very good. The things I'd recommend changing is the spin flight. You use it in three places (before first door, before P-switch, before Boo door), and regular flight is pretty significantly faster. Here's a tip about regular flight you might not know (or at least might not use), which I think would come in handy especially when flying to the P-switch: If you release Y during flight and not press the direction pad you keep going at the same speed, and by pressing/releasing B you can control your height pretty well. This makes it a whole lot easier to hit targets (like a door, or a p-switch) with regular speed flight.

thegreginator

Edit history:

thegreginator: 2006-07-18 03:51:50 am

2006-07-18 03:47:45 am

Thanks for the advice Fabian. I did consider doing regular flights, but I figured the distances that I would be flying would be short enough not to make a difference. I tried what you said, and actually got in the first door at 387! I tried many more times to replicate this 387, and got it a few more times but not very consistently. In the second room, I dont know what happened to me, but I cant get through the circle. I used to ALWAYS be able to and it was never a problem, but now I can never make it. I think I'm just frustrated and sick of this level so I'm taking a break from it and I'll redo it with the regular flying later. My prediction is a 341, which is a 2 mario improvement from the spin jump flying. Cheesy

For the second room, since I could never make it through the circle, I tried something new. Here is a picture of it. I have done this twice. It is very difficult and doesnt even save that much time, but that's what happens when you strive for perfection. Wink

Oh Fabian, also, does that keep fly speed trick work if you let go of Y to stop flying but then press it again as you're floating down (you will do a cape spin)? It's easier for me to always be holding Y because my brain has programmed me to do that when playing Mario.

Thanks for the advice Fabian.  I did consider doing regular flights, but I figured the distances that I would be flying would be short enough not to make a difference.  I tried what you said, and actually got in the first door at 387!  I tried many more times to replicate this 387, and got it a few more times but not very consistently.  In the second room, I dont know what happened to me, but I cant get through the circle.  I used to ALWAYS be able to and it was never a problem, but now I can never make it.  I think I'm just frustrated and sick of this level so I'm taking a break from it and I'll redo it with the regular flying later.  My prediction is a 341, which is a 2 mario improvement from the spin jump flying. :D

For the second room, since I could never make it through the circle, I tried something new.  [url=http://img157.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=76785_DGH_room_2_496lo.JPG]Here[/url] is a picture of it.  I have done this twice.  It is very difficult and doesnt even save that much time, but that's what happens when you strive for perfection.  ;)

Oh Fabian, also, does that keep fly speed trick work if you let go of Y to stop flying but then press it again as you're floating down (you will do a cape spin)?  It's easier for me to always be holding Y because my brain has programmed me to do that when playing Mario.

jimsfriend

2006-07-18 01:32:08 pm

Like A Fox

The reason you couldn't get through the second ghost circle is because you entered the first door at a different time. I don't know if you ever noticed, but when you play the ghost house over and over w/o savestate right before the level and just start+select right before the first ghost circle, when you re-enter the level they are in the same position they were when you left. The ghost circles begin rotating when you enter the ghost house, then stop rotating and save their position when you leave. Since you get to the door earlier the second ghost circle is in a different spot; it hasn't rotated as far.

Flight speed remains even if you lose the flying animation. I hope that's actually what you asked.

Fabian

2006-07-18 11:27:43 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Yes Y works just as well.

thegreginator

Edit history:

thegreginator: 2006-07-19 08:57:28 pm

2006-07-19 08:45:44 pm

Okay I finally finished perfecting DGH. I finished with a time of 341 ;D. This 341 should be absolutely perfect for my method, because Alexis Neuhaus, the previous TAS record holder for SMW, also gets a 341 in this level with TAS perfection. Although Alexis Neuhaus' TAS 341 has been obsoleted by now, this 341 was the fastest possible time for the method he used. This method is using a cape, not flying through the stairs, and not doing the hopping glitch. By not flying through the stairs and not doing the hopping glitch (both of which are pretty much impossible on console), the best I could possibly hope to do was tie Alexis Neuhaus, which I did. There were actually some situations where I was faster than him ;): he didnt do fast flying on the way to the p-switch (I tried to do this, not sure if I succeeded) and he didnt minimize his flight liftoff height on the way to the boo door. Switching to the fire flower and then back to the cape (like VIPer7's 96-exit run) wasnt really an option.

This 341 was incredibly hard to do, and took me many many attempts. I got it 3 times in practice but it wasnt recording. When I went to record it, I always got frustrated and messed up, so I decided to do it in two segments to make the recording process much smoother and easier. The first segment is getting to the first door by 387 and the second segment is the second room starting at 387 and finishing the boo fight at 341. If you watch them back-to-back, it'll look just like one run. I couldve recorded it all as one segment (I did get the 341 in one run-through in practice 3 times after all), but I didnt feel like putting any more time into this level because I'm really sick of it. I also didnt feel like taking 4 hours to upload AVIs onto filefront, so they're just .smv, sorry. And of course, no slowdown or frame advance used. Well, here it is:

Segment 1: Donut Ghost House 1st Room - 387

Segment 2: Donut Ghost House 2nd Room - 341

This 341 required the utmost precision to make possible. There were many times when I would do the level the exact same way, but end up with a 339! Just look at this video. The reason for this is because there are two doors in this level, and when you enter a door, the in-game timer resets to the beginning of whatever digit it was on. This means that if you enter the first door at a 387 that is only 1 frame away from a 386 (so a really "bad" 387), when you get to the other side of the door you have a full 387 on the clock, so you have 41 frames (one timeunit=41 frames) until the timer turns to 386, instead of the 1 frame you would normally have if a door hadnt been entered. With this in mind, it was very important for me to be super precise in order to get to the doors just before the timer turned. I got to the first door 3 frames away from a 386 and got to the second (boo) door 0 frames away from a 370 (it was RIGHT when the timer turned, a fraction of a frame away!). While making this level incredibly hard to do, these "races against the clock" to get into the door in time helped ensure that my route up to these doors was as optimal as possible (otherwise I wouldnt have made it to the doors in time, I had a < 1 frame window at one point!). For the first door, that meant making the duck under the eerie as short as possible and taking off to flight right away. For the second door, this meant having a clean p-switch, not "missing my targets" when I stopped flight to land on the p-switch and get in the door, and getting lucky with the fast flying on the way to the p-switch. I think my new route also helped.

The differences from my previous version are as follows: in the first room, I made the shortest possible duck under the eerie and did a regular flight to the door instead of a spin jump flight. In the second room, I had a new route (see pic above) getting through the second circle, which was a bit faster than my old route and a whole lot cooler. This new route also allowed me to take off to a regular flight that I could maintin until the p-switch. The final difference is that I did another regular flight up to the boo door instead of a spin jump flight. Thanks for advising me on these regular flights Fabian, I think they helped push me over the edge to get to the doors quickly enough to "beat the clock" and gain 2 timeunits overall. As always, question, comments, and criticisms are welcome. Sorry for all the writing! Cheesy

Okay I finally finished perfecting DGH.  I finished with a time of 341 ;D.  This 341 should be absolutely perfect for my method, because Alexis Neuhaus, the previous TAS record holder for SMW, also gets a 341 in this level with TAS perfection. Although Alexis Neuhaus' TAS 341 has been obsoleted by now, this 341 was the fastest possible time for the method he used.  This method is using a cape, not flying through the stairs, and not doing the hopping glitch.  By not flying through the stairs and not doing the hopping glitch (both of which are pretty much impossible on console), the best I could possibly hope to do was tie Alexis Neuhaus, which I did.  There were actually some situations where I was faster than him ;): he didnt do fast flying on the way to the p-switch (I tried to do this, not sure if I succeeded) and he didnt minimize his flight liftoff height on the way to the boo door.  Switching to the fire flower and then back to the cape (like VIPer7's 96-exit run) wasnt really an option.

This 341 was incredibly hard to do, and took me many many attempts.  I got it 3 times in practice but it wasnt recording. When I went to record it, I always got frustrated and messed up, so I decided to do it in two segments to make the recording process much smoother and easier.  The first segment is getting to the first door by 387 and the second segment is the second room starting at 387 and finishing the boo fight at 341.  If you watch them back-to-back, it'll look just like one run.  I couldve recorded it all as one segment (I did get the 341 in one run-through in practice 3 times after all), but I didnt feel like putting any more time into this level because I'm really sick of it.  I also didnt feel like taking 4 hours to upload AVIs onto filefront, so they're just .smv, sorry.  And of course, no slowdown or frame advance used.  Well, here it is:

[url=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1402/DGH_341-1stRoom.smv]Segment 1: Donut Ghost House 1st Room - 387[/url]

[url=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1403/DGH_341-2ndRoom.smv]Segment 2: Donut Ghost House 2nd Room - 341[/url]

This 341 required the utmost precision to make possible.  There were many times when I would do the level the exact same way, but end up with a 339!  Just look at [url=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1404/DGH_339-new.smv]this video[/url].  The reason for this is because there are two doors in this level, and when you enter a door, the in-game timer resets to the beginning of whatever digit it was on.  This means that if you enter the first door at a 387 that is only 1 frame away from a 386 (so a really "bad" 387), when you get to the other side of the door you have a full 387 on the clock, so you have 41 frames (one timeunit=41 frames) until the timer turns to 386, instead of the 1 frame you would normally have if a door hadnt been entered.  With this in mind, it was very important for me to be super precise in order to get to the doors just before the timer turned.  I got to the first door 3 frames away from a 386 and got to the second (boo) door 0 frames away from a 370 (it was RIGHT when the timer turned, a fraction of a frame away!). While making this level incredibly hard to do, these "races against the clock" to get into the door in time helped ensure that my route up to these doors was as optimal as possible (otherwise I wouldnt have made it to the doors in time, I had a < 1 frame window at one point!).  For the first door, that meant making the duck under the eerie as short as possible and taking off to flight right away.  For the second door, this meant having a clean p-switch, not "missing my targets" when I stopped flight to land on the p-switch and get in the door, and getting lucky with the fast flying on the way to the p-switch.  I think my [url=http://img157.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=76785_DGH_room_2_496lo.JPG]new route[/url] also helped.

The differences from my previous version are as follows: in the first room, I made the shortest possible duck under the eerie and did a regular flight to the door instead of a spin jump flight.  In the second room, I had a new route (see pic above) getting through the second circle, which was a bit faster than my old route and a whole lot cooler.  This new route also allowed me to take off to a regular flight that I could maintin until the p-switch.  The final difference is that I did another regular flight up to the boo door instead of a spin jump flight.  Thanks for advising me on these regular flights Fabian, I think they helped push me over the edge to get to the doors quickly enough to "beat the clock" and gain 2 timeunits overall.  As always, question, comments, and criticisms are welcome.  Sorry for all the writing! :D