Dark Cloud 2 (PS2)

2015-02-21 09:32:34 am

So I decided if I wanted to run this game again it would be a NG+ run. Overall it wouldn't be much different other than skipping photos and maybe having some items earlier than normal.

I started to test if I could skip ALL chests in the game, and do money manipulation using Turkeys. The overall time you take looting chests might add up to quite a bit of time, not sure exactly how much, there is also the transitions back and forth to the shops when you have the required Gilda.
Making and selling Turkeys though took me 24minis to get the total required Gilda for my route. This required 278 Turkeys starting at 4040 Gilda, having more money shortens the amount of time it would take obviously.

So is it worth it overall? I have no idea, someone will have to time how much time we waste looting chests, and extra transitions. My notes arent complete yet either, so the total Gilda might not be accurate. I decided to skip picking up each city after finishing, buying the Carrot and the Chestnut.

Here is the spreadsheet for those interested with how I calculated it all: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aIWyGY0KowRMum1gkLFfRVVfVGR71V8BHugUBw_twwQ/edit?usp=sharing

So I decided if I wanted to run this game again it would be a NG+ run. Overall it wouldn't be much different other than skipping photos and maybe having some items earlier than normal.

I started to test if I could skip ALL chests in the game, and do money manipulation using Turkeys. The overall time you take looting chests might add up to quite a bit of time, not sure exactly how much, there is also the transitions back and forth to the shops when you have the required Gilda.
Making and selling Turkeys though took me 24minis to get the total required Gilda for my route. This required 278 Turkeys starting at 4040 Gilda, having more money shortens the amount of time it would take obviously.

So is it worth it overall? I have no idea, someone will have to time how much time we waste looting chests, and extra transitions. My notes arent complete yet either, so the total Gilda might not be accurate. I decided to skip picking up each city after finishing, buying the Carrot and the Chestnut.

Here is the spreadsheet for those interested with how I calculated it all: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aIWyGY0KowRMum1gkLFfRVVfVGR71V8BHugUBw_twwQ/edit?usp=sharing

Tetsero

2015-05-21 12:53:33 am

So I just completed a run (starts here: http://www.twitch.tv/tetsero/v/5269316) that went awful but I learned the game which is good.

The run was over multiple days and on an emulator, but I feel it went about the same as a normal run would go.

If I paid attention/planned what medals to get then it might have went better, but I felt it went fine. I went the "NG+" route and took 29 pictures. Getting 40 medals is probably the best bed for your final weapon as max. I had mine by puppet shingala but you actually don't need it until chapter 5 or chapter 6 end. You start with 2 synth points on it, so if you want, you can wait all the way until chapter 7 to route out all medals and just synth the sun/moon stones on it and it'll be fine.

The main problem was me not knowing what to do or where to go. Money is never a problem, and if your ridepod runs out of fuel you can just use the hammer (Get 2 power crystals from the sewers hopefully, if you can't get two by chapter 2 then it's not worth inventing unless you're not good with the ridepod)

Once I compile my notes from the run I'll share it with you all. It's mostly a clarity thing and working out what inventions to get/not get and by when with the NG+. I know the jet hover is amazing. Having that in chapter 3 was beautiful and I would not change that. The main part is getting 200 capacity for urn pack, nova cannon 2, and jet hover (requires super core (7800 xp + 400 for barrel cannon). You can just have core 3 (4300 xp + 400) if you sacrifice urn pack for bucket/barrel pack. Or you can get cleaner pack+propeller legs. Or just use buggy and avoid the urn pack sacrifice).

And if anyone has any other revised notes, I'd love to check them out.

So I just completed a run (starts here: http://www.twitch.tv/tetsero/v/5269316) that went awful  but I learned the game which is good.

The run was over multiple days and on an emulator, but I feel it went about the same as a normal run would go.

If I paid attention/planned what medals to get then it might have went better, but I felt it went fine. I went the "NG+" route and took 29 pictures. Getting 40 medals is probably the best bed for your final weapon as max. I had mine by puppet shingala but you actually don't need it until chapter 5  or chapter 6 end. You start with 2 synth points on it, so if you want, you can wait all the way until chapter 7 to route out all medals and just synth the sun/moon stones on it and it'll be fine.

The main problem was me not knowing what to do or where to go. Money is never a problem, and if your ridepod runs out of fuel you can just use the hammer (Get 2 power crystals from the sewers hopefully, if you can't get two by chapter 2 then it's not worth inventing unless you're not good with the ridepod)

Once I compile my notes from the run I'll share it with you all. It's mostly a clarity thing and working out what inventions to get/not get and by when with the NG+. I know the jet hover is amazing. Having that in chapter 3 was beautiful and I would not change that. The main part is getting 200 capacity for urn pack, nova cannon 2, and jet hover (requires super core (7800 xp + 400 for barrel cannon). You can just have core 3 (4300 xp + 400) if you sacrifice urn pack for bucket/barrel pack. Or you can get cleaner pack+propeller legs. Or just use buggy and avoid the urn pack sacrifice).

And if anyone has any other revised notes, I'd love to check them out.

rainbzer

2015-05-21 01:25:06 am

Right on man! Thats super exciting. I'm currently working on a windwaker HD speedrun guide, but then after i complete that, i plan to return back to this game again. Thats super awesome! Dont stop!

Tetsero

Edit history:

Tetsero: 2015-05-27 10:55:47 pm

Tetsero: 2015-05-27 08:24:31 pm

Tetsero: 2015-05-24 02:59:47 am

2015-05-23 03:35:55 pm

I just finished analyzing and changing some things.

I'm about to run this: http://pastebin.com/RzM0ny1A

Hopefully you can use your ridepod on Sirus in Chapter 6... if not then the run will be over then (unless I have a bunch of useable items and they work well enough).

I think I included everything I need to buy, I'm not sure about the exp curve of the ridepod yet so some of the core upgrades are in strange places. Hopefully I get 4-5 ridepod fuel in the sewers.

Any comments on the notes will be appreciated. This run is using the album (NG+) to get many upgrades early on--It uses a lot of money in the beginning of the game which could end up being bad.

Also, would Borneo or Need be better in Chapter 3? I'm not sure yet, something we could figure out.

Just finished the run, lost a lot of time to incorrect materials in the last georama and not collecting geostones. http://www.twitch.tv/tetsero/v/5457188 Check it out and critique it if you want. Any pointers I'll appreciate a lot. (It's currently, as of 25 May 2015, it's the fastest time--though on an emulator which means the loading times are 1/2 to 1/3 the time (using an iso))

I just finished analyzing and changing some things.

I'm about to run this: http://pastebin.com/RzM0ny1A

Hopefully you can use your ridepod on Sirus in Chapter 6... if not then the run will be over then (unless I have a bunch of useable items and they work well enough).

I think I included everything I need to buy, I'm not sure about the exp curve of the ridepod yet so some of the core upgrades are in strange places. Hopefully I get 4-5 ridepod fuel in the sewers.

Any comments on the notes will be appreciated. This run is using the album (NG+) to get many upgrades early on--It uses a lot of money in the beginning of the game which could end up being bad.

Also, would Borneo or Need be better in Chapter 3? I'm not sure yet, something we could figure out.

Just finished the run, lost a lot of time to incorrect materials in the last georama and not collecting geostones. http://www.twitch.tv/tetsero/v/5457188 Check it out and critique it if you want. Any pointers I'll appreciate a lot. (It's currently, as of 25 May 2015, it's the fastest time--though on an emulator which means the loading times are 1/2 to 1/3 the time (using an iso))

Qazplm

2015-07-01 11:43:34 pm

Hey, just wanted to announce my presence on here. I just recently got my old disc fixed and am playing it casually for the first time in the last 10 years or so. I'm currently on Ch. 4 and I'm planning to practice speedrunning the game once I beat the Ch. 7 boss. (Screw Ch. 8. I'm satisfied with beating the final boss on my save from 10 years ago ;P)

Qazplm

Edit history:

Qazplm: 2015-07-10 08:17:03 am

2015-07-10 06:49:27 am

So I finally beat the game and tested out a few things. For now I'm trying to figure out a route that doesn't require the name-change ticket, I'll have to test whether getting 40 medals is worth it or not.

1) Griffon is a little less annoying with non-stop amulets. I practiced recruiting Rosa and managed to consistently recruit her in under 25 seconds, so it might be a bit helpful, although not necessary.

2) I tried fighting the final boss using the best weapons from Gundorada Weapons. Without using any stamina drinks or leveling the weapons, I can beat the Dark Element in a little over 4 minutes, although I also had 100 defense and 240 hp for both Max and Monica on the file I tested on, which won't be happening in a real run. Max's weapons will most likely have a few levels in an actual run if it works out, so I'm not sure if it would be faster because I do more damage, slower because I have less HP, or completely impossible with much lower stats. Also, the first Griffon battle in Chapter 6 worries me a bit. Not sure how plausible it is to defeat Griffon without the Supernova.

3) I tested out all of the ranged Ridepod weapons that seem plausible to invent end-game.
Laser Arm III - works really well for Griffon's 1st phase, although not quite as good as the Final Bomb.
Machine Gun Arm IV - needs a ruby to make, and according to a guide I found, there's a Ruby conveniently located on the long stretch of road to Luna Lab after Jaming. It's amazing for the last 5 bosses, can kill each in 10-20 seconds, but is completely useless in dungeons (for some reason, I tried killing a balloon and it can't reach low enough)
Nova Cannon III - needs 3 holy stones to make, so probably can only be used as a back-up strat. Does a lot of damage and actually hits the target unlike the machine gun arm.

4) The buggy is amazing! It's about 20% faster than the Jet Hover and not too hard to control on flat land, but stairs are really annoying and I probably need to practice fighting enemies on it. Also, it makes the 5 final bosses before Dark Element a joke. As long as you go in circles, they can't even touch you. You can invent it with belt, car, System 5WP2. The earliest you can make it is the end of Chapter 4.

5) Polly's 20 crunchy breads seem very helpful for the final battle. I think I'll recruit her anyways and not worry about the chestnut and carrot.

6) Apparently pots can be stacked. I don't know how I didn't figure that out earlier, but that makes georama a little more efficient.

7) Stuff costs a lot. I'm really hoping that money won't be too much of an issue

8) I can see some people posting about Finny Frenzy. I tried tracking some of the times Finny Frenzy and Fishing Contest appear for me, and for me Fishing Contest appeared on days 48,68,88 and Finny Frenzy on 58,78,98. I'd need to test it out more, but I think it's just every 20 days starting with the day you unlock them.

9) For some reason, with the Nova Cannons I'll sometimes get two quick attacks. It's happened a lot and I'm still trying to figure out how that works.

10) I found this on GameFaqs today. I'm not sure how true it is, but if the glitch works, then this might be a really cool gamebreaking glitch. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/561438-dark-cloud-2/72017166

I've started practicing running the game and so far I've gotten 4 floors into Chapter 3. I'm hoping to finish a segmented run and figure out a route by the end of next week.

Edit: I decided to look up the Japanese speedrunners notes and apparently you can invent the Heavy Hammer (Drum Can, Paznos, Power Arm) at the end of Chapter 5. I think a run without the name-change glitch might actually be faster.

So I finally beat the game and tested out a few things. For now I'm trying to figure out a route that doesn't require the name-change ticket, I'll have to test whether getting 40 medals is worth it or not.

1) Griffon is a little less annoying with non-stop amulets. I practiced recruiting Rosa and managed to consistently recruit her in under 25 seconds, so it might be a bit helpful, although not necessary.

2) I tried fighting the final boss using the best weapons from Gundorada Weapons. Without using any stamina drinks or leveling the weapons, I can beat the Dark Element in a little over 4 minutes, although I also had 100 defense and 240 hp for both Max and Monica on the file I tested on, which won't be happening in a real run. Max's weapons will most likely have a few levels in an actual run if it works out, so I'm not sure if it would be faster because I do more damage, slower because I have less HP, or completely impossible with much lower stats. Also, the first Griffon battle in Chapter 6 worries me a bit. Not sure how plausible it is to defeat Griffon without the Supernova.

3) I tested out all of the ranged Ridepod weapons that seem plausible to invent end-game. 
Laser Arm III - works really well for Griffon's 1st phase, although not quite as good as the Final Bomb.
Machine Gun Arm IV - needs a ruby to make, and according to a guide I found, there's a Ruby conveniently located on the long stretch of road to Luna Lab after Jaming. It's amazing for the last 5 bosses, can kill each in 10-20 seconds, but is completely useless in dungeons (for some reason, I tried killing a balloon and it can't reach low enough)
Nova Cannon III - needs 3 holy stones to make, so probably can only be used as a back-up strat. Does a lot of damage and actually hits the target unlike the machine gun arm.

4) The buggy is amazing! It's about 20% faster than the Jet Hover and not too hard to control on flat land, but stairs are really annoying and I probably need to practice fighting enemies on it. Also, it makes the 5 final bosses before Dark Element a joke. As long as you go in circles, they can't even touch you. You can invent it with belt, car, System 5WP2. The earliest you can make it is the end of Chapter 4.

5) Polly's 20 crunchy breads seem very helpful for the final battle. I think I'll recruit her anyways and not worry about the chestnut and carrot.

6) Apparently pots can be stacked. I don't know how I didn't figure that out earlier, but that makes georama a little more efficient.

7) Stuff costs a lot. I'm really hoping that money won't be too much of an issue

8) I can see some people posting about Finny Frenzy. I tried tracking some of the times Finny Frenzy and Fishing Contest appear for me, and for me Fishing Contest appeared on days 48,68,88 and Finny Frenzy on 58,78,98. I'd need to test it out more, but I think it's just every 20 days starting with the day you unlock them.

9) For some reason, with the Nova Cannons I'll sometimes get two quick attacks. It's happened a lot and I'm still trying to figure out how that works.

10) I found this on GameFaqs today. I'm not sure how true it is, but if the glitch works, then this might be a really cool gamebreaking glitch. http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/561438-dark-cloud-2/72017166

I've started practicing running the game and so far I've gotten 4 floors into Chapter 3. I'm hoping to finish a segmented run and figure out a route by the end of next week.

Edit: I decided to look up the Japanese speedrunners notes and apparently you can invent the Heavy Hammer (Drum Can, Paznos, Power Arm) at the end of Chapter 5. I think a run without the name-change glitch might actually be faster.

Acefrog

Edit history:

Acefrog: 2015-07-10 09:39:37 am

2015-07-10 09:39:27 am

Most of this stuff I have already tested.. I feel the route without tickets has always been faster (More dangerous with spherda stuff) but yea, if you think you can find a faster route, go ahead Smiley

As for this GameFaq glitch with item duping.. It does not work. Or at least for me. I tried it today on my PS2 NA console, got up to chapter 4 with electric worm and there is no way to scroll further down to a glitch menu. Sad, as it would make me want to run this game more with such a trick..

Qazplm

2015-07-10 03:24:13 pm

Damn, guess I wasn't so helpful then. XP

Oh well, I'm still going to write up a route from scratch since it's more fun. Plus I'm learning more about the game looking into all of this stuff instead of just following someone else's route.

Acefrog

2015-07-10 10:45:37 pm

Well, its something new which hasnt been mentioned before. Maybe its his specific version of game/console. Will never know unless he answers that thread, but that was over three weeks ago.

And go ahead with new routes.. You will more than likely find something others have missed. The more the merrier, its how we come up with the best optimized route with new finds Smiley

Qazplm

2015-07-21 12:03:55 am

So I did a run over the course of a few days and got an in-game time of 8:12. I died 3 times, so it was definitely a terrible run, although I also changed some stuff in my route and had to backtrack as a result, so I think it might have balanced out.

I think the only differences with my route and all the other routes I've seen in the thread is creating the Twin Buster right before the final fight, having Monica fight against DE, and bringing both the Machine Gun Arm IV and Laser Arm III. I think getting the Machine Gun Arm was a bit inefficient, so I'm gonna scrap that idea, but the Twin Buster was very useful in the final fight. It's so much nicer being able to attack Griffon and Dark Element during their combos instead of waiting it out and having to heal a ton.

I don't think anything will be faster than the Twin Buster. The ideas are Flower Chandelier (the blue lights on the ceiling in the Sun Chamber), Jurak's Nose, and Rifle (above the door in Gerald's room) so none of the photos require you to go out of your way to get them. It starts out with 101 attack and 2 synthesis points. It does maximum 71 damage by default against Griffon and DE and 84 with both the Sun and Moon stones synthed in. The materials cost 2500 gilda and doesn't require a coin or anything, so absolutely no Spheda luck throughout the whole run. I'd estimate Spheda to take at least 3 extra minutes to kill all monsters and actually get the Bandit Coin assuming you get it first try. Fighting Griffon exclusively with Final Bombs saved me ~1:40 total for the last two phases and DE takes less than 3 minutes to fight, so I don't see anything that is possibly more efficient than the Twin Buster.

I got Monica the Pocklekul from Julia and had her spam magic while dodging during the Dark Element fight, but I think I would end up saving more time memorizing which chests contain Witch Parfaits and ignoring those than to have Monica fight. I managed to get 10-20 hits each round doing 22 damage per hit, so it's equivalent to about 3-5 hits with Max's gun at optimal range. His melee attacks are really easy to dodge, and I don't think his ranged attack can hit while you're directly under him, so possibly with a Sun or Moon Armlet(found in chests in MFP) a bit of time can be saved by having Monica fight, even with no power ups.

I tested out weapons with the Ridepod and for the final battle, the Laser Arm III is apparently about as fast as the Nova Cannon III which surprised me a lot. The Machine Gun Arm IV was 30 seconds faster, but it also takes a bit of time to make and can't be used on Dark Element, so I think Laser Arm III is the way to go. I did MFP just fine with just the Nova Cannon II, so if Laser Arm III doesn't work out for MFP, I think Nova Cannon II will still work out just fine.

Extra people I recruited were Rosa (those charms might waste some time compared to cherries, but I've died a few times from not paying attention and getting hit twice because of the stop effect) and Polly for the carrot and bread. I'm still debating Polly because I ended up using less than 20 breads (somehow managed to use up all 20 breads and about 10 premium chickens against the final boss in my casual playthrough where I had much better weapons, but I think I'll just need to buy some chicken from Ferdinand during Balance Valley georama and I'll be set for the rest of the game)

Also, this one's kinda pointless, but just so nobody else wastes time trying, the Laser Arm IV which you can make during the Dark Element fight is extremely powerful (does 703 damage compared to the Laser Arm III's 480, so you can finish off Dark Element once it's the Ridepod's turn) however, in Chapter 8, it won't work in the narrow corridors because all attacks hit the ceiling, so if anyone plans on doing a Chapter 8 run, Laser Arm IV is completely out of the question.

So I did a run over the course of a few days and got an in-game time of 8:12. I died 3 times, so it was definitely a terrible run, although I also changed some stuff in my route and had to backtrack as a result, so I think it might have balanced out.

I think the only differences with my route and all the other routes I've seen in the thread is creating the Twin Buster right before the final fight, having Monica fight against DE, and bringing both the Machine Gun Arm IV and Laser Arm III. I think getting the Machine Gun Arm was a bit inefficient, so I'm gonna scrap that idea, but the Twin Buster was very useful in the final fight. It's so much nicer being able to attack Griffon and Dark Element during their combos instead of waiting it out and having to heal a ton.

I don't think anything will be faster than the Twin Buster. The ideas are Flower Chandelier (the blue lights on the ceiling in the Sun Chamber), Jurak's Nose, and Rifle (above the door in Gerald's room) so none of the photos require you to go out of your way to get them. It starts out with 101 attack and 2 synthesis points. It does maximum 71 damage by default against Griffon and DE and 84 with both the Sun and Moon stones synthed in. The materials cost 2500 gilda and doesn't require a coin or anything, so absolutely no Spheda luck throughout the whole run. I'd estimate Spheda to take at least 3 extra minutes to kill all monsters and actually get the Bandit Coin assuming you get it first try. Fighting Griffon exclusively with Final Bombs saved me ~1:40 total for the last two phases and DE takes less than 3 minutes to fight, so I don't see anything that is possibly more efficient than the Twin Buster.

I got Monica the Pocklekul from Julia and had her spam magic while dodging during the Dark Element fight, but I think I would end up saving more time memorizing which chests contain Witch Parfaits and ignoring those than to have Monica fight. I managed to get 10-20 hits each round doing 22 damage per hit, so it's equivalent to about 3-5 hits with Max's gun at optimal range. His melee attacks are really easy to dodge, and I don't think his ranged attack can hit while you're directly under him, so possibly with a Sun or Moon Armlet(found in chests in MFP) a bit of time can be saved by having Monica fight, even with no power ups.

I tested out weapons with the Ridepod and for the final battle, the Laser Arm III is apparently about as fast as the Nova Cannon III which surprised me a lot. The Machine Gun Arm IV was 30 seconds faster, but it also takes a bit of time to make and can't be used on Dark Element, so I think Laser Arm III is the way to go. I did MFP just fine with just the Nova Cannon II, so if Laser Arm III doesn't work out for MFP, I think Nova Cannon II will still work out just fine.

Extra people I recruited were Rosa (those charms might waste some time compared to cherries, but I've died a few times from not paying attention and getting hit twice because of the stop effect) and Polly for the carrot and bread. I'm still debating Polly because I ended up using less than 20 breads (somehow managed to use up all 20 breads and about 10 premium chickens against the final boss in my casual playthrough where I had much better weapons, but I think I'll just need to buy some chicken from Ferdinand during Balance Valley georama and I'll be set for the rest of the game)

Also, this one's kinda pointless, but just so nobody else wastes time trying, the Laser Arm IV which you can make during the Dark Element fight is extremely powerful (does 703 damage compared to the Laser Arm III's 480, so you can finish off Dark Element once it's the Ridepod's turn) however, in Chapter 8, it won't work in the narrow corridors because all attacks hit the ceiling, so if anyone plans on doing a Chapter 8 run, Laser Arm IV is completely out of the question.

Tetsero

2015-07-25 09:57:39 pm

I still don't know what run is faster since the fastest runs I've seen are with getting tickets and the super nova.

As for the best gun I'd say Twin Buster might be a great alternative to the Steal Gun/Super Nova.

Since the run is very tight on money I think fitting in even more ridepod parts is just too much. Going with Nova Cannon II (for NG+) is probably the only viable option.

I haven't tested with buggy at all so I can't speak to its speed--But I know Jet Hover is very clunky so buggy might be fine as long as you can adapt your combat to it with the nova cannon.

Qazplm

2015-07-27 07:52:36 pm

I tested out fighting the monsters in the dungeon and it looks like the Nova Cannon II is probably faster than the Laser Arm III (I tested optimal number of hits and attack speed, so other factors may change things). Only a few monsters can be killed a few seconds faster with the LA3 and that's assuming you don't end up near a wall and missing a few shots.

For the final battle, I tested out the boss rush with the Nova Cannon II as well and it took 155 seconds. It's ~60 sec slower than the Laser Arm III and may require 1-2 extra Max phases if you don't go with the Supernova route.

Compared with the Machine Gun Arm IV though, it's ~90 sec slower, and it takes ~40 sec to invent and make the MGA4. I didn't have too much of a problem with money (although I've only done 2 runs, so I can't say for certain) so I think it's worth it. It costs 4.4k gilda for the materials and the ideas for inventing are Drum Can (G-Parts, you'll have this if you get the Heavy Hammer as well), Propeller (inside the Operations Room), and Wind Gem Alter. I can't say for certain, but it looks like using MGA4 for the boss rush and Nova Cannon II for DE might be the fastest unless you get the Supernova.

I haven't tried doing NG+ yet, so I have no idea how much would change other than more inventions available. Twin Buster might be the best option since the materials only cost 2.5k. It can be upgraded by spectrumizing another Twin Buster into itself and killing two extra monsters in MFP. I'm not sure if it's very likely to get a Twin Buster to +5 and another to +1, though.

Buggy is definitely faster than the Jet Hover (about 20%), but it's harder to fight and move up stairs. The Roller Foot also seems to be slightly slower than Max, but not by much. Also, I'm not sure if moving sideways as the Ridepod is any faster. It might just be because I wasn't stable enough, but I didn't see a time difference when timing run speeds with the Roller Foot.

I tested out fighting the monsters in the dungeon and it looks like the Nova Cannon II is probably faster than the Laser Arm III (I tested optimal number of hits and attack speed, so other factors may change things). Only a few monsters can be killed a few seconds faster with the LA3 and that's assuming you don't end up near a wall and missing a few shots.

For the final battle, I tested out the boss rush with the Nova Cannon II as well and it took 155 seconds. It's ~60 sec slower than the Laser Arm III and may require 1-2 extra Max phases if you don't go with the Supernova route.

Compared with the Machine Gun Arm IV though, it's ~90 sec slower, and it takes ~40 sec to invent and make the MGA4. I didn't have too much of a problem with money (although I've only done 2 runs, so I can't say for certain) so I think it's worth it. It costs 4.4k gilda for the materials and the ideas for inventing are Drum Can (G-Parts, you'll have this if you get the Heavy Hammer as well), Propeller (inside the Operations Room), and Wind Gem Alter. I can't say for certain, but it looks like using MGA4 for the boss rush and Nova Cannon II for DE might be the fastest unless you get the Supernova.

I haven't tried doing NG+ yet, so I have no idea how much would change other than more inventions available. Twin Buster might be the best option since the materials only cost 2.5k. It can be upgraded by spectrumizing another Twin Buster into itself and killing two extra monsters in MFP. I'm not sure if it's very likely to get a Twin Buster to +5 and another to +1, though.

Buggy is definitely faster than the Jet Hover (about 20%), but it's harder to fight and move up stairs. The Roller Foot also seems to be slightly slower than Max, but not by much. Also, I'm not sure if moving sideways as the Ridepod is any faster. It might just be because I wasn't stable enough, but I didn't see a time difference when timing run speeds with the Roller Foot.

Qazplm

2015-08-01 02:31:54 am

Just did a run and I think I got WR for any% by 2 minutes. http://www.twitch.tv/qazplm9000/c/7004727
End time was 7:32:19, although I wasn't too sure of the cutoff point, so it's +/- a few seconds.

I think major difference between my route and the others I saw in here was using the Machine Gun Arm IV in Ch. 6 as soon as I got the 4th core. Also, I used the Cleaner Pack in Ch. 4 (although I ended up forgetting the Air Cleaner picture and wasted a bit of time losing the Ridepod in Ch. 4), and I used Monica during Dark Element as well for some extra damage, although it's probably not worth it unless you either get the Spirit Brassard, Moon Armband, or Sun Armlet from a chest (or you somehow end up not doing enough damage in the time limit).

Things I could've improved on:
- Using the Samurai Swords when running around to avoid damage. I might have saved more time not taking damage than I would have by avoiding the menu.
- Not spending 5+ minutes on a floor. Many of the times I got 5+ minutes could probably have been avoided if I played more carefully.
- Basically just need to play safer in general. I think I wasted more time dying than I saved trying to rush through all the floors.
- Also, remembering to split the time properly. Kept forgetting to do splits on my time!

I'm definitely done with this game for a while, probably won't be running for at least a few weeks. XP

Just did a run and I think I got WR for any% by 2 minutes. http://www.twitch.tv/qazplm9000/c/7004727
End time was 7:32:19, although I wasn't too sure of the cutoff point, so it's +/- a few seconds.

I think major difference between my route and the others I saw in here was using the Machine Gun Arm IV in Ch. 6 as soon as I got the 4th core. Also, I used the Cleaner Pack in Ch. 4 (although I ended up forgetting the Air Cleaner picture and wasted a bit of time losing the Ridepod in Ch. 4), and I used Monica during Dark Element as well for some extra damage, although it's probably not worth it unless you either get the Spirit Brassard, Moon Armband, or Sun Armlet from a chest (or you somehow end up not doing enough damage in the time limit).

Things I could've improved on:
- Using the Samurai Swords when running around to avoid damage. I might have saved more time not taking damage than I would have by avoiding the menu.
- Not spending 5+ minutes on a floor. Many of the times I got 5+ minutes could probably have been avoided if I played more carefully.
- Basically just need to play safer in general. I think I wasted more time dying than I saved trying to rush through all the floors.
- Also, remembering to split the time properly. Kept forgetting to do splits on my time!

I'm definitely done with this game for a while, probably won't be running for at least a few weeks. XP

Acefrog

2015-08-07 05:40:14 pm

So ive decided to do a segmented run of the game (As insane as it sounds) and will probably stream most of my attempts when time permits.

The route I am going to do is the standard any% route I run (Bandit coin, steal gun etc) but with obviously good RNG manipulation when I can. I dont know how insane I want to go into segments, because it certainly is possible to save between each area to get first spawn key and Geostone, but I would end up with a segmented run with over 100 segments I am sure..

For now I am starting a basic guide in this spreadsheet, which will explain some segments a little bit. (Note this spreadsheet is an old one I used to plan for my single segment route so may not be accuracte.)

If anyone has suggestions and stuff you are more than welcome to help Smiley

Qazplm

Edit history:

Qazplm: 2015-08-12 08:00:06 am

2015-08-12 07:50:58 am

So since Acefrog found the debug menu cheat code, I ended up playing around with a lot of different combinations for the final boss as well as holy stone hunting and even Ch. 8 stuff.

So to help decide on what weapon everyone wants to use, here are times I gathered from the boss rush at the end:
Machine Gun Arm IV: 0:08, 0:08, 0:09, 0:10, 0:25, total: 1:00
Barrel Cannon IV: 0:17, 0:08, 0:18, 0:24, 0:21, total: 1:28
Nova Cannon III: 0:17, 0:17, 0:18, 0:11, 0:33, total: 1:36
Nova Cannon IV (NG+): 0:04, 0:04, 0:04, 0:04, 0:08, total: 0:24
Supernova (default stats): 0:10, 0:15, 0:13, 0:12, 0:41, total: 1:31
Laser Arm III is too prone to missing in dungeons and really slow, so I just skipped it

Dark Element Ridepod Damage:
Laser Arm III: A little less than half
Laser Arm IV: 1 cycle kill
Barrel Cannon III: a little less than half
Barrel Cannon IV: a little over half
Nova Cannon III: a little less than half
Nova Cannon IV: 1 cycle
Missile Pod Arm III & IV: about 1/4 damage

Also, Max and Monica's ranged weapons
Supernova + Stamina Drink: ~1:30
Supernova + Stamina Drink + Dark Coin: ~0:38
5-Star Armlet + Stamina Drink + Dark Coin: ~0:24

Now all the tradeoffs:
Supernova takes a while to get (either 40 medals or level up Steal Gun)
5-Star Armlet needs 40 medals
Laser Arms are too hard to fight with
Machine Gun Arm sometimes misses if you're too close and does lower damage with distance. Also, it can't be used against Dark Element.
Barrel Cannon IV has a decent time, but a Bull's Eye Coin is needed which is 100% RNG
Nova Cannon III & IV both would need holy stones. I tried killing about 25 holy gemrons and got 7 holy stones from stealing and checking drops. Chances are, you won't be getting enough holy stones from fighting gemrons and will have to rely on chest drops or Spheda.

Also, I just tested out Dark Genie for Ch. 8 runs and the fight is a bit ridiculous. I've finally gotten used to the fight, but from what I can tell, the only options are either Laser Arm IV, or Nova Cannon IV + Samurai Swords. The way the boss works, when he turns blue, he is vulnerable to attacks, but otherwise he is immune to all attacks. In the beginning, he will have 2 cycles of vulnerability. That's enough for the Laser Arm IV to kill him, which will take around 50 seconds assuming you don't die. With the Nova Cannon IV, though, you will need to do at least 4 cycles to kill him, but after the first 2 cycles, you can only force him to go into his vulnerable state by killing mini genies. The mini genies have ridiculously high HP. I've tested the Drill Arm IV, Hammer Arm IV, Grade Zero +7, Samurai Arm IV, and Final Bombs + Lightspeed. The only thing that can reasonably kill the mini genies is the Samurai Arm IV. Anything else except for maybe a really high level Final Weapon for Max & Monica with high attack and elements (not sure what they're weak against, but I saw a video of a guy doing 10k per hit or something with the Island King) can kill the mini genies. There's a huge risk of dying because the mini genies gather up and some can shoot projectiles, so Laser Arm IV is really safe, but Nova Cannon IV + Samurai Arm IV is very much doable with only 1 Ridepod Fuel. My lowest time for the boss was 2:06, so either strategy could work. The Samurai Arm IV requires 2 diamonds, and the two most convenient diamonds are Donny's diamond (there's plenty of scoops that take a few seconds tops) and the one in front of G-Weapons after Ch. 6 (you need to put Erik back at Heim Rada if you took him with you).

I tested fighting in the Ch. 8 dungeons and Machine Gun Arm IV works just fine for the first few floors, but eventually it gets more and more ridiculous. It's pretty much impossible for me to fight without the Roller Feet for the most part. The last few stages before Flotsam will take about 30-60 sec just to kill the gate keeper, so it's really inefficient. However, the Nova Cannon III doesn't seem much better and still needs Holy Stones to make, so I think Machine Gun Arm IV will do for the beginning. The Nova Cannon IV can clear out enemies a lot faster though, so it's probably the most viable strategy. The best route from what I can see is probably to use the Machine Gun Arm IV until Flotsam. Invent the Nova Cannon IV and Samurai Arms IV during the Flotsam fight, then go back to Dead End 3, fight the boss, and then do Dark Genie with Nova Cannon IV + Samurai Arm IV combo. Laser Arm IV is sometimes impossible to fight with (the ceiling in corridors is too low, so attacks never hit).

I have a feeling Supernova will be completely useless by this point since the difficulty curve increases dramatically into Ch. 8, but I haven't tested it yet. At the very least, I do not think it's feasible to use it for Dark Genie without spending a few hours grinding it up.

Edit: Actually...I just realized I could just make the Nova Cannon IV + Laser Arm IV. The downside would be that the Laser Arm IV requires 4 gold bars and 4 holy stones, so that would mean 4k gilda + 9 holy stones for both. I think 4k gilda might be possible to scrounge up before the Dark Element fight, but it would really be more of a backup strat for amazing RNG.

So since Acefrog found the debug menu cheat code, I ended up playing around with a lot of different combinations for the final boss as well as holy stone hunting and even Ch. 8 stuff.

So to help decide on what weapon everyone wants to use, here are times I gathered from the boss rush at the end:
Machine Gun Arm IV: 0:08, 0:08, 0:09, 0:10, 0:25, total: 1:00
Barrel Cannon IV: 0:17, 0:08, 0:18, 0:24, 0:21, total: 1:28
Nova Cannon III: 0:17, 0:17, 0:18, 0:11, 0:33, total: 1:36
Nova Cannon IV (NG+): 0:04, 0:04, 0:04, 0:04, 0:08, total: 0:24
Supernova (default stats): 0:10, 0:15, 0:13, 0:12, 0:41, total: 1:31
Laser Arm III is too prone to missing in dungeons and really slow, so I just skipped it

Dark Element Ridepod Damage:
Laser Arm III: A little less than half
Laser Arm IV: 1 cycle kill
Barrel Cannon III: a little less than half
Barrel Cannon IV: a little over half
Nova Cannon III: a little less than half
Nova Cannon IV: 1 cycle
Missile Pod Arm III & IV: about 1/4 damage

Also, Max and Monica's ranged weapons
Supernova + Stamina Drink: ~1:30
Supernova + Stamina Drink + Dark Coin: ~0:38
5-Star Armlet + Stamina Drink + Dark Coin: ~0:24

Now all the tradeoffs:
Supernova takes a while to get (either 40 medals or level up Steal Gun)
5-Star Armlet needs 40 medals
Laser Arms are too hard to fight with
Machine Gun Arm sometimes misses if you're too close and does lower damage with distance. Also, it can't be used against Dark Element.
Barrel Cannon IV has a decent time, but a Bull's Eye Coin is needed which is 100% RNG
Nova Cannon III & IV both would need holy stones. I tried killing about 25 holy gemrons and got 7 holy stones from stealing and checking drops. Chances are, you won't be getting enough holy stones from fighting gemrons and will have to rely on chest drops or Spheda.

Also, I just tested out Dark Genie for Ch. 8 runs and the fight is a bit ridiculous. I've finally gotten used to the fight, but from what I can tell, the only options are either Laser Arm IV, or Nova Cannon IV + Samurai Swords. The way the boss works, when he turns blue, he is vulnerable to attacks, but otherwise he is immune to all attacks. In the beginning, he will have 2 cycles of vulnerability. That's enough for the Laser Arm IV to kill him, which will take around 50 seconds assuming you don't die.  With the Nova Cannon IV, though, you will need to do at least 4 cycles to kill him, but after the first 2 cycles, you can only force him to go into his vulnerable state by killing mini genies. The mini genies have ridiculously high HP. I've tested the Drill Arm IV, Hammer Arm IV, Grade Zero +7, Samurai Arm IV, and Final Bombs + Lightspeed. The only thing that can reasonably kill the mini genies is the Samurai Arm IV. Anything else except for maybe a really high level Final Weapon for Max & Monica with high attack and elements (not sure what they're weak against, but I saw a video of a guy doing 10k per hit or something with the Island King) can kill the mini genies. There's a huge risk of dying because the mini genies gather up and some can shoot projectiles, so Laser Arm IV is really safe, but Nova Cannon IV + Samurai Arm IV is very much doable with only 1 Ridepod Fuel. My lowest time for the boss was 2:06, so either strategy could work. The Samurai Arm IV requires 2 diamonds, and the two most convenient diamonds are Donny's diamond (there's plenty of scoops that take a few seconds tops) and the one in front of G-Weapons after Ch. 6 (you need to put Erik back at Heim Rada if you took him with you).

I tested fighting in the Ch. 8 dungeons and Machine Gun Arm IV works just fine for the first few floors, but eventually it gets more and more ridiculous. It's pretty much impossible for me to fight without the Roller Feet for the most part. The last few stages before Flotsam will take about 30-60 sec just to kill the gate keeper, so it's really inefficient. However, the Nova Cannon III doesn't seem much better and still needs Holy Stones to make, so I think Machine Gun Arm IV will do for the beginning. The Nova Cannon IV can clear out enemies a lot faster though, so it's probably the most viable strategy. The best route from what I can see is probably to use the Machine Gun Arm IV until Flotsam. Invent the Nova Cannon IV and Samurai Arms IV during the Flotsam fight, then go back to Dead End 3, fight the boss, and then do Dark Genie with Nova Cannon IV + Samurai Arm IV combo. Laser Arm IV is sometimes impossible to fight with (the ceiling in corridors is too low, so attacks never hit).

I have a feeling Supernova will be completely useless by this point since the difficulty curve increases dramatically into Ch. 8, but I haven't tested it yet. At the very least, I do not think it's feasible to use it for Dark Genie without spending a few hours grinding it up.

Edit: Actually...I just realized I could just make the Nova Cannon IV + Laser Arm IV. The downside would be that the Laser Arm IV requires 4 gold bars and 4 holy stones, so that would mean 4k gilda + 9 holy stones for both. I think 4k gilda might be possible to scrounge up before the Dark Element fight, but it would really be more of a backup strat for amazing RNG.

Acefrog

2015-08-12 04:00:31 pm

To add a lil note onto Dark Element, a Level 5 Stealgun with Dark Coin and Stamina drink is roughly around 40seconds on a not very good attempt.. This is what I will be using on segmented run.

And for anyone hoping to sequence break the game, it might not enteriley possible with how its designed.
Oringally the best sequence break we thought of was clipping through a star door and getting star path early to the gems, in hopes it might unlock later areas in the game. You will be able to go through the star path, maybe even get the gem earlier. But you still need to find a trigger to open up Kazarov Stonehenge on the World Map.

The biggest thing we can possibly do in this game, is unlocking debug mode on an offical console without a cheat device. Not exactly possible I dont think?

Tetsero

2015-08-14 08:15:10 pm

I'm getting the japanese version to try and exploit the gift capsule bug for money. And I'll test the suggested bug with the electric worm.

Qazplm

Edit history:

Qazplm: 2015-08-14 08:58:43 pm

2015-08-14 08:52:38 pm

I'm pretty sure you need version one of the Japanese version. I think there's 3 or something, and the later ones fixed the bug. Here's the notes for the glitch in Japanese, google translate makes it readable at least. http://darkchronicle.jp/cdoc/techs.html#iinfincr

Edit: Wow, looks like the Japanese version sells for <$10 used with free shipping from Japan... The American version must have been severely underprinted or something.

Unreal704

Edit history:

Unreal704: 2015-08-15 08:26:40 am

Unreal704: 2015-08-15 12:26:04 am

Unreal704: 2015-08-15 12:25:57 am

2015-08-14 09:53:54 pm

Also known as Bottles/Sydynski

What other differences are there besides the text scrolling and the capsule glitch? That would be a good exploit for grinding money I'm assuming? I've been lurking in the thread and watching acefrog's recent streams and want to learn this game and possibly help out Smiley

Edit: A side note regarding roasted chestnuts.. In 2-3 I got 4 chestnuts in chests LOL. I've read about chestnuts being run killers so maybe there is a higher chance to get them here on this level? Maybe I just got insanely lucky.

Qazplm

2015-08-15 10:43:14 am

I'll probably get a Japanese iso of the game to test later on. I'm hoping there's nothing particularly faster in the Japanese version since I want to be able to read the text in the game.

So far I'm just scanning through the list of inventions, but I don't see anything particularly useful for inventing with the "infinite growth glitch" (not sure if that's the right name, blame Google Translate if it's wrong). If we invent using the glitch, we'd probably have to invent things one at a time, so it would be like inventing turkeys with up to 9 infinite items. A nice thing to invent though might be the Lightspeed or improved bombs so Monica has backup items during Ch. 3's Gaspard fight in case you miss.

Unreal704

Edit history:

Unreal704: 2015-08-15 10:56:29 am

2015-08-15 10:48:55 am

Also known as Bottles/Sydynski

I wanted to note that there seems to be a higher percentage of Ridepod fuel drops when you kick a rock with Steve. I might be wrong and should probably test this out further but in my playthrough I've been getting the fuel more often kicking the rocks.

Qazplm

2015-08-15 10:52:21 am

Is there? I've actually never heard of that before. I have to test that out later on. All I know so far is that items from rocks are "true rng" (the chests are predetermined once you go into the stage, and even the clown chests give you a predetermined item. Rocks are the only thing that have random items even with save states)

Unreal704

Edit history:

Unreal704: 2015-08-15 11:00:38 am

Unreal704: 2015-08-15 11:00:17 am

2015-08-15 10:59:05 am

Also known as Bottles/Sydynski

I just got some fuel throwing the rock as Max so I'm probably wrong, I've just gotten it more often on Steve. I have a question about the chestnuts in the Rainbow butterfly woods. Is there a higher percentage of chestnuts in chests in certain stages? I posted earlier about getting 4 chesnuts in 2-3. Is the backup recruiting Polly if you don't get any?

Qazplm

Edit history:

Qazplm: 2015-08-15 11:06:46 am

2015-08-15 11:02:18 am

I don't know anything about chest drop rates. I think Acefrog said each stage likely has its own drop table (or at least to an extent). And yeah, the backup is recruiting Polly, although I get her anyways because recruiting her means 20 crunchy bread and an extra garnet in a chest in Jurak Mall. Plus, no more luck with carrots, even if the chances of getting one are already pretty high.

Edit: If we're going to test the drop rate of individual floors, we'd have to do so multiple times (Law of Large Numbers and all that). The more test cases we have, the more accurate data we have.

Acefrog

2015-08-15 04:33:18 pm

Here is a 'Stage Mapping' spreadsheet.. I made it from the data Random has collected so far, and is open for anyone to edit if anyone is interested in doing it.

http://tinyurl.com/qzx3meu

Not sure what use this would be for most people.. if its accuracte and we can predict chest drops, I would be using it for my segmented run.