Breath of Fire

2010-02-23 08:55:07 pm

Okay this is slightly unrelated to my previous posts, but I've started running and recording again. I haven't totally fleshed out the entire plan just yet, but the first half of the game is pretty much figured out. I've been running Frog for quite a while now (~100 runs), and I'm kind of torn about whether or not to keep a certain segment or keep gunning for a better one. Here's what I know about Frog-

He's a total dick.
Success rate at level 1 in the front row is around 1/6.
Getting the F.Stn drop is 1/8.

I've beaten him now 14 times and no F.Stn. However, I just beat him without him getting any Recover off and I also got 4 ctr's in as well and timed in at around 2:30, easily my fastest fight with this guy. This is the only time in my 100+ runs I ever had this happen, and I'm wondering if beating him without him getting Recover off is worth sacrificing the F.Stn. The odds of the stars aligning and getting the F.Stn and no recover for this battle seem close to 1/800, and I think there are better places to destroy my will to run this game later on. I'll give him another nights worth of runs, but I think I might settle for this run unless somebody can demonstrate to me that the F.Stn would be more valuable.

I know the Knight segment will be a bit tougher if I forgo the F.Stn, but I think It will probably time out pretty close either way and I've spent close to 10 hours on this guy already.

Okay this is slightly unrelated to my previous posts, but I've started running and recording again. I haven't totally fleshed out the entire plan just yet, but the first half of the game is pretty much figured out. I've been running Frog for quite a while now (~100 runs), and I'm kind of torn about whether or not to keep a certain segment or keep gunning for a better one. Here's what I know about Frog-

He's a total dick.
Success rate at level 1 in the front row is around 1/6.
Getting the F.Stn drop is 1/8.

I've beaten him now 14 times and no F.Stn. However, I just beat him without him getting any Recover off and I also got 4 ctr's in as well and timed in at around 2:30, easily my fastest fight with this guy. This is the only time in my 100+ runs I ever had this happen, and I'm wondering if beating him without him getting Recover off is worth sacrificing the F.Stn. The odds of the stars aligning and getting the F.Stn and no recover for this battle seem close to 1/800, and I think there are better places to destroy my will to run this game later on. I'll give him another nights worth of runs, but I think I might settle for this run unless somebody can demonstrate to me that the F.Stn would be more valuable.

I know the Knight segment will be a bit tougher if I forgo the F.Stn, but I think It will probably time out pretty close either way and I've spent close to 10 hours on this guy already.

__sdfg

2010-02-23 10:07:28 pm

D:

I was planning on running Frog at level 2 or 3, with all of the stuff from the castle equipped. The fight was more painful than I felt like tolerating otherwise. With the equipment and at level 2, Frog is doable in 2:00, and faster times are possible. I beat him in 1:20 once at level 3. I'm not sure which is likely to come out faster overall, because the time it takes to level depends on which fight(s) you get. My penciled-in leveling times are 0:15 to get to 2 and 0:45 to get to 3, but I don't know how typical they are.

One of the reasons for getting the F.Stn is to avoid having Knight recover while you're fighting him. I think Frog at level 2 is easier than Knight at level 6, so I was planning on re-running the segment until I got the drop. I haven't tried running this seriously, though. Maybe it would be better to not go crazy.

Also, in case you don't know this, your attack power is not affected by moving your characters to the back row, so they should stay there unless you're abusing death.

I was planning on running Frog at level 2 or 3, with all of the stuff from the castle equipped.  The fight was more painful than I felt like tolerating otherwise.  With the equipment and at level 2, Frog is doable in 2:00, and faster times are possible.  I beat him in 1:20 once at level 3.  I'm not sure which is likely to come out faster overall, because the time it takes to level depends on which fight(s) you get.  My penciled-in leveling times are 0:15 to get to 2 and 0:45 to get to 3, but I don't know how typical they are.

One of the reasons for getting the F.Stn is to avoid having Knight recover while you're fighting him.  I think Frog at level 2 is easier than Knight at level 6, so I was planning on re-running the segment until I got the drop.  I haven't tried running this seriously, though.  Maybe it would be better to not go crazy.

Also, in case you don't know this, your attack power is not affected by moving your characters to the back row, so they should stay there unless you're abusing death.

japanzaman

2010-02-24 04:23:41 pm

Hmmm, those extra battles are certainly going to spice things up for you, but if you get them to work quickly you can still get about the same time I got. I toyed around with the idea of getting an extra level for Frog, but in the end there's still quite a bit of uncertainty with that fight. The way I looked at it was do I want three battles where things have to go perfect or just one? Honestly, I think you'll be running that segment just as long as I did, unless you get really lucky. Plus, going right at Frog at level 1 just seemed cooler and having a little bit of variation in our runs can't hurt either. Wink

Also, you don't need the extra F.Stn to beat Knight without Recover as the two Stn you pick up along the way will do the trick. The last F.Stn just lets you beat him in two rounds on the final phase, saving you about 3 rounds (or 20 seconds). Having the F.Stn is preferable, but getting Frog down without the recover saved probably just as much time.

Honestly, there's so much luck involved in this game that worrying about 10 or 20 seconds in the very beginning is probably not a healthy way to approach things. Grin

Hmmm, those extra battles are certainly going to spice things up for you, but if you get them to work quickly you can still get about the same time I got. I toyed around with the idea of getting an extra level for Frog, but in the end there's still quite a bit of uncertainty with that fight. The way I looked at it was do I want three battles where things have to go perfect or just one? Honestly, I think you'll be running that segment just as long as I did, unless you get really lucky. Plus, going right at Frog at level 1 just seemed cooler and having a little bit of variation in our runs can't hurt either. ;)

Also, you don't need the extra F.Stn to beat Knight without Recover as the two Stn you pick up along the way will do the trick. The last F.Stn just lets you beat him in two rounds on the final phase, saving you about 3 rounds (or 20 seconds). Having the F.Stn is preferable, but getting Frog down without the recover saved probably just as much time.

Honestly, there's so much luck involved in this game that worrying about 10 or 20 seconds in the very beginning is probably not a healthy way to approach things. ;D

japanzaman

2010-02-25 08:51:22 pm

Thanks for the advice sdfg. You need to let me know when I'm being stupid before I waste my time, not after... Grin

Still, even from the backrow Frog gave me hell. Problem was AP. Beat Frog and got an F.Stn five times, but the real issue I was worried about was AP. I kept getting low AP gains (like 13 and 14) and it took quite a few tries to get the F.Stn and get my goal of 16. I expect to reach Agni at level 18, and although I should be safe, I've had a pracice run where I ended up with 60 AP exactly. The last thing I need is yet another thing to worry about in this run, so I want to make sure I got a decent gain AP gain for the first two encounters, as they represent almost half of my level up opportunities. Not reaching 60 AP is not an option. I'll reject any run where Ryu gains a level and only gets 2 AP from here on until I'm absolutely certain Ryu is safe.

DoubleThink

2010-02-25 11:59:39 pm

There's a word for that

Ryu's 'average' AP at Lv18 is about about 66, so you'd need a lot of poor level ups to get less than 60. You can afford for him to gain 2 AP off Frog as long as he gets a 4 or two to go with it.

I wasn't even sure that Frog was possible at Lv1, at least without a heavy stock of healing items and all the new equipment, because his jump attack can 2-hit Ryu and Ryu has to get an attack in between heals. Getting Ryu to Lv2 beforehand could also let you check his AP gain for that level and reset if it's a 2, reducing the luck needed after Frog.

japanzaman

Edit history:

japanzaman: 2010-02-28 05:05:46 am

2010-02-28 04:57:49 am

DoubleThink

Yes, I know I might be a little paranoid about this, but I have seen rather low AP gains before and just because the average is 66 doesn't mean that's what will happen. Given the amount of time this is going to take, I'm absolutely not leaving anything to chance here. Oh, and Frog is more than doable at level 1 from the back row. In fact, the odds from my experience are about 33% success rate with the gear from Camlon equipped.

Okay so I've fleshed out my plan for this run finally, from start to finish. Click here to view it.bofspeedrunnodeath.txt

Let me also reiterate some points:

1) I did not develop every strategy that I use, and am not claiming to have done so. I studied this message board and a few others while trying to figure out strategies so big thanks to everyone for all the good ideas.

2) This is a NO DEATH run. Please don't tell me I should have used death abuse here or there. That's the point! Also, anybody planning on using death abuse needs to understand that not all strategies will apply to you. You probably need more gold, and when you choose to save will probably be different at certain points. You also need less Mrbl3.

3) This is not perfect. Runs this long are never perfect the first time through, and it usually takes quite a few attempts to figure out what works best. I'm posting this as a starting point that hopefully will be improved upon by anybody else interested.

4) This plan is doable and has been verified as possible. I am not attempting anything here that cannot be performed on the console. I have followed this plan in a practice run on an emulator and recorded my party's exact status for each segment, along with equipment and inventory.

Okay... so for those of you who don't feel like mucking through that enormous pile of text, here's a quick breakdown of the run:

1) All battles except forced encounters and dragon shrines are skipped.
2) I make 5 shopping trips: Drogen, Windia, Auria, Prima, and Windia. I buy thee pieces of equipment: DarkDR, HornHT, and IcySH. I buy 140 Mrbl3, 45 Mrbl1, 27 Herb, 41 Herb, 1 G.Bar, 6 Cure, and 3 Worm. I stay at the Inn 4 times: Auria (2), Arad, and Prima.
3) I Mrbl1 blast in 7 battles: Eye, Toad, Cloud (rematch), Slimes, Pincher, Mote, and Avian. All others are either AB or manual.
4) I wait to get Dragon powers until after Nina can fly. I do get Agni.
5) I pick up only enough stuff to keep my team alive or sell for items.
6) Yes, I will be bartering for the DarkDR (sdfg's idea) and no I won't be dumping my items in the bank beforehand.
7) There will be a total of 30 segments, which I've tried to keep down to the absolute minimum. Saving is done only when it's convenient or necessary.

For all those interested in this, give the plan a read. I've already started running and recording, but if there's a better way to do something, I'll see if I can work it in. Or you could just go and do a run yourself and beat my plan!

Peace

DoubleThink

Yes, I know I might be a little paranoid about this, but I have seen rather low AP gains before and just because the average is 66 doesn't mean that's what will happen. Given the amount of time this is going to take, I'm absolutely not leaving anything to chance here. Oh, and Frog is more than doable at level 1 from the back row. In fact, the odds from my experience are about 33% success rate with the gear from Camlon equipped.

Okay so I've fleshed out my plan for this run finally, from start to finish. Click here to view it.[url=http://s2.sigmirror.com/files/59712_yjswl/bofspeedrunnodeath.txt]bofspeedrunnodeath.txt[/url]

Let me also reiterate some points:

1) I did not develop every strategy that I use, and am not claiming to have done so. I studied this message board and a few others while trying to figure out strategies so big thanks to everyone for all the good ideas.

2) This is a NO DEATH run. Please don't tell me I should have used death abuse here or there. That's the point! Also, anybody planning on using death abuse needs to understand that not all strategies will apply to you. You probably need more gold, and when you choose to save will probably be different at certain points. You also need less Mrbl3.

3) This is not perfect. Runs this long are never perfect the first time through, and it usually takes quite a few attempts to figure out what works best. I'm posting this as a starting point that hopefully will be improved upon by anybody else interested.

4) This plan is doable and has been verified as possible. I am not attempting anything here that cannot be performed on the console. I have followed this plan in a practice run on an emulator and recorded my party's exact status for each segment, along with equipment and inventory.

Okay... so for those of you who don't feel like mucking through that enormous pile of text, here's a quick breakdown of the run:

1) All battles except forced encounters and dragon shrines are skipped.
2) I make 5 shopping trips: Drogen, Windia, Auria, Prima, and Windia. I buy thee pieces of equipment: DarkDR, HornHT, and IcySH. I buy 140 Mrbl3, 45 Mrbl1, 27 Herb, 41 Herb, 1 G.Bar, 6 Cure, and 3 Worm. I stay at the Inn 4 times: Auria (2), Arad, and Prima.
3) I Mrbl1 blast in 7 battles: Eye, Toad, Cloud (rematch), Slimes, Pincher, Mote, and Avian. All others are either AB or manual.
4) I wait to get Dragon powers until after Nina can fly. I do get Agni.
5) I pick up only enough stuff to keep my team alive or sell for items.
6) Yes, I will be bartering for the DarkDR (sdfg's idea) and no I won't be dumping my items in the bank beforehand.
7) There will be a total of 30 segments, which I've tried to keep down to the absolute minimum. Saving is done only when it's convenient or necessary.

For all those interested in this, give the plan a read. I've already started running and recording, but if there's a better way to do something, I'll see if I can work it in. Or you could just go and do a run yourself and beat my plan!

Peace

DoubleThink

2010-02-28 06:18:26 am

There's a word for that

Quote:

Move Bow to back row.
Ryu uses E. Key.
Nina heals herself or Ryu.
Bo uses Fry.
Ryu uses Acorn on Bo.
Nina heals again.
Bo uses Fry.
Ryu attacks.
Nina heals.
Bow uses Fry to end battle.

I think I already mentioned in this thread, but the General's first phase has exactly 160 HP, which is exactly 2 Fry's, so the E. Key attack isn't needed. His health bar is deceptive.

The exp and level records seem to vary wildly from segment to segment Undecided

japanzaman

2010-02-28 08:00:01 am

DoubleThink-

Noted. I haven't gotten that far so I'll update my strategy there. Also, there is a good chance the EXP has some typos in it, as I had actually done a previous run and was doing some cutting and pasting to save time. EXP isn't really all that important except for Ryu and Nina until she reaches level 13.

If you find any more mistakes or see improvements, keep them coming as everybody benefits from a better plan. 8)

Oh, and I thought I'd mention that even though I don't specifically state it in the guide, I'm assuming all Mrbl3's are used a space before you actually need them in order to skip that second it takes to watch the message. I'm going to go through and get my walking route locked down for the other segments, so hopefully I can add that soon. 1 second not such a big deal... 130=big deal.

__sdfg

2010-02-28 04:31:57 pm

D:

Your route is mostly the same as mine, but with several differences in which items get picked up/bought/sold. I'll need to go back and review stuff on my own end before I can comment on the whole run.

A few notes, though:

You have many fewer segments than I was planning, but I think it's better to do it your way. I will need a few more saves to make death abuse work.
Using a second Mrbl3 before the first one expires is the correct way to do it. I would be surprised if anyone did anything else.
If you run from the Wizard the first time you see him, the game goes right to the cutscene of the soldier leaving. You still have to sit through another battle where the Wizard kills you off, but you save time on the first fight.
It's a good thing you noticed that the 900G chest in Romero doesn't count, because I was planning on using that, and I would've been really frustrated if I went through a run and discovered that I was 900G short in Auria.
There's a Life2 on the second floor of Agua, if you go left after you get off the hovering platform. I think it's faster to get than the one in the back of the Auria item shop.
The SkullHT inflicts a damage penalty on the wearer (similar to the WolfHT, but not as bad).
You use fewer Mrbl1s than I thought would be necessary to see a significant difference against Toad and SlimeX, but this allows you to use Mrbl1s on both of them, which I hadn't thought would be possible. I don't know what the best approach is yet.
I don't think you need to use Ryu's dragon form against Mote. Mote takes 15 hits before he becomes immune to physical damage, and that counter resets when his conscience shows up, so Shin shouldn't have any problems. Turning Ryu into a dragon will let him take more of Mote's hits away from Shin, however.
When you go to see Nina in Tunlan after she gets amnesia, you don't need to talk to the other women there. You can walk in, talk to Nina, and walk out. Her dialogue won't explain what's happening to anyone who hasn't played the game, but it's enough to make the doctor talk to you when you get back to Carmen.
You don't have to talk to the soldier near the elevator in Scande. You can check the elevator and leave.
I find it easier to have Ryu use the WtrJr' in the last part of Tyr than to try to use three Acorns: it lets you recover if Tyr kills someone (because you have to have everyone alive to use Agni).

I don't know when I'll get around to organizing my notes, but if you finish your run while I'm still doing that, congrats. Tongue

Your route is mostly the same as mine, but with several differences in which items get picked up/bought/sold.  I'll need to go back and review stuff on my own end before I can comment on the whole run.

A few notes, though:
[list]
[li]You have many fewer segments than I was planning, but I think it's better to do it your way.  I will need a few more saves to make death abuse work.[/li]
[li]Using a second Mrbl3 before the first one expires is the correct way to do it.  I would be surprised if anyone did anything else.[/li]
[li]If you run from the Wizard the first time you see him, the game goes right to the cutscene of the soldier leaving.  You still have to sit through another battle where the Wizard kills you off, but you save time on the first fight.[/li]
[li]It's a good thing you noticed that the 900G chest in Romero doesn't count, because I was planning on using that, and I would've been really frustrated if I went through a run and discovered that I was 900G short in Auria.[/li]
[li]There's a Life2 on the second floor of Agua, if you go left after you get off the hovering platform.  I think it's faster to get than the one in the back of the Auria item shop.[/li]
[li]The SkullHT inflicts a damage penalty on the wearer (similar to the WolfHT, but not as bad).[/li]
[li]You use fewer Mrbl1s than I thought would be necessary to see a significant difference against Toad and SlimeX, but this allows you to use Mrbl1s on both of them, which I hadn't thought would be possible.  I don't know what the best approach is yet.[/li]
[li]I don't think you need to use Ryu's dragon form against Mote.  Mote takes 15 hits before he becomes immune to physical damage, and that counter resets when his conscience shows up, so Shin shouldn't have any problems.  Turning Ryu into a dragon will let him take more of Mote's hits away from Shin, however.[/li]
[li]When you go to see Nina in Tunlan after she gets amnesia, you don't need to talk to the other women there.  You can walk in, talk to Nina, and walk out.  Her dialogue won't explain what's happening to anyone who hasn't played the game, but it's enough to make the doctor talk to you when you get back to Carmen.[/li]
[li]You don't have to talk to the soldier near the elevator in Scande.  You can check the elevator and leave.[/li]
[li]I find it easier to have Ryu use the WtrJr' in the last part of Tyr than to try to use three Acorns:  it lets you recover if Tyr kills someone (because you have to have everyone alive to use Agni).[/li]
[/list]

I don't know when I'll get around to organizing my notes, but if you finish your run while I'm still doing that, congrats.  :P

japanzaman

Edit history:

japanzaman: 2010-02-28 07:30:30 pm

2010-02-28 06:32:07 pm

Thanks for the updates sdfg! Unfortunately I already cleared the Wizard area on my run so that part will be a little longer Cry

You be sure to do it the right way.

Oh well, you live and you learn. Will definitely make note of that. I'll check that Life2, as it could be a good substitute. I'll also ditch those SkullHT and just sell them. Extra GP could save me the trip on that final M.Drop.

As for Nina and the guy by the bridge, I'm pretty sure I doublechecked to make sure you needed to talk to those people but I'll recheck, as we don't want to talk to them if we don't have to.

Also, about the Acorn in the Tyr fight. I use the Acorn in the first encounter after turning into Agni- nice thing about that is that it will actually use all three acorns at once, filling up your AP in one turn (this assumes you have 3 acorns in stock). This way you can blast Tyr once, then go right to the real battle with full AP and you only use one turn. Wtrjr would work too I guess.

Actually, scratch that. Less Acorn means more money and less time spent.

Also, be aware that every save you make adds time, so if death abuse is requiring another save from you, make sure it saves you the extra twenty seconds the save requires. I'm also toying around with the idea of restarting my run, as some of these suggestions could really help make it better. I haven't invested too much time, so restarting isn't going to kill me. I'll keep adding the changes to my plan and then repost after I've mapped out mrbl3 usage. Maybe one day I'll actually be ready to start running this game Roll Eyes

Thanks for the updates sdfg! Unfortunately I already cleared the Wizard area on my run so that part will be a little longer :'( You be sure to do it the right way.

Oh well, you live and you learn. Will definitely make note of that. I'll check that Life2, as it could be a good substitute. I'll also ditch those SkullHT and just sell them. Extra GP could save me the trip on that final M.Drop.

As for Nina and the guy by the bridge, I'm pretty sure I doublechecked to make sure you needed to talk to those people but I'll recheck, as we don't want to talk to them if we don't have to.

Also, about the Acorn in the Tyr fight. I use the Acorn in the first encounter after turning into Agni- nice thing about that is that it will actually use all three acorns at once, filling up your AP in one turn (this assumes you have 3 acorns in stock). This way you can blast Tyr once, then go right to the real battle with full AP and you only use one turn. Wtrjr would work too I guess.

Actually, scratch that. Less Acorn means more money and less time spent.

Also, be aware that every save you make adds time, so if death abuse is requiring another save from you, make sure it saves you the extra twenty seconds the save requires. I'm also toying around with the idea of restarting my run, as some of these suggestions could really help make it better. I haven't invested too much time, so restarting isn't going to kill me. I'll keep adding the changes to my plan and then repost after I've mapped out mrbl3 usage. Maybe one day I'll actually be ready to start running this game ::)

Axel Ryman

2010-03-01 11:45:09 pm

We all scream for Eyes Cream

Just thought I'd mention this since you two seem to be beginning a run(Well one of you already started). Janus has started his TAS over and so far its up to the Frog boss after beating him. Janus gains a level before fighting the boss though, and also gets the F. Stn drop. Not sure when he'll post a new WIP but I'll update when he does.

japanzaman

2010-03-02 08:27:13 am

Quote:

Janus has started his TAS over and so far its up to the Frog boss after beating him. Janus gains a level before fighting the boss though, and also gets the F. Stn drop.

I can definitely see how a TAS could manage that, and if done perfectly you could pick up 15 seconds I guess. Replicating that in actual gameplay is a lot tougher, I've found. First you have to get two perfect battles. Then, you have to hope for that 1/8 drop. I'm sticking with running him at level 1, as you still get a good time if things fall your way and you don't have to mess with an extra battle. Frog really isn't all that hard anyway...

In the end, it's going to be impossible to match a TAS since he doesn't need to save. Even by stretching saves to the limits, I still estimate losing 10-15 minutes. Gonna be tough to break the 5:00:00 mark, even with death abuse Undecided

japanzaman

Edit history:

japanzaman: 2010-03-03 05:57:40 pm

2010-03-03 05:52:28 pm

Okay, so I've gone through and updated my plan for the no deaths run through. Anybody
interested can view it: bofspeedrunnodeath2.0.txt

Here's what's changed:

1. Required F.Stn manipulated from Knight. Don't know why I didn't mention it before as I had been doing it all along.
2. I do kill off Nina and SR1 against Mortea, then flee from first wizard encounter.
3. I save at Karma for segment 4 instead of Winlan. Not sure why I never thought of doing that before.
4. I buy less acorn and herb in Winlan, which lets me skip the Life2 in Agua. I buy a Life in Auria to make up for this.
5. Some battle segments have been tweaked: General/Lancer battle in the Stone Robot, Morte, and Mortea.
6. I skip 2 SkullHT in Crypt.
7. I buy exactly the right amount of Mrbl3 (59) in Prima. My records won't show this as I had to finish the run before I knew for sure.
8. I do skip talking to the woman in Tunlan and the guy in Scande.
9. I do use the Wtrjr against Tyr in the first encounter and not acorn.
10. All 139 Mrbl3 have been accounted for and noted. The descriptions are more for me so don't be surprised if they don't make a whole lot of sense. I took screenshots of the exact positions, but since they're only relevant for a no death run, I don't see the need to upload them.

I haven't mentioned it in the guide, but I'm probably also going to work on leaving x1 of Mrbl3 where I can to hold their place so I don't have a lot of useless items cluttering the top of my inventory. I'm going to start running with this plan, so hopefully if I've missed something somebody will let me know before I get there. I'm not doing any more starts so any mistakes will just have to stand. I also didn't mention it, but I swap the E.Key for the F.Stn at the beginning of Segment 3, as I like having the E.Key in the primary spot.

Again, thanks for all the updates. I think it's pretty clear that whenever __sdfg and I have different opinions, he's usually the one that's right. 8)

Okay, so I've gone through and updated my plan for the no deaths run through. Anybody
interested can view it: [url=http://s2.sigmirror.com/files/60322_yoa0q/bofspeedrunnodeath2.0.txt]bofspeedrunnodeath2.0.txt[/url]

Here's what's changed:

1. Required F.Stn manipulated from Knight. Don't know why I didn't mention it before as I had been doing it all along.
2. I do kill off Nina and SR1 against Mortea, then flee from first wizard encounter.
3. I save at Karma for segment 4 instead of Winlan. Not sure why I never thought of doing that before.
4. I buy less acorn and herb in Winlan, which lets me skip the Life2 in Agua. I buy a Life in Auria to make up for this.
5. Some battle segments have been tweaked: General/Lancer battle in the Stone Robot, Morte, and Mortea.
6. I skip 2 SkullHT in Crypt.
7. I buy exactly the right amount of Mrbl3 (59) in Prima. My records won't show this as I had to finish the run before I knew for sure.
8. I do skip talking to the woman in Tunlan and the guy in Scande.
9. I do use the Wtrjr against Tyr in the first encounter and not acorn.
10. All 139 Mrbl3 have been accounted for and noted. The descriptions are more for me so don't be surprised if they don't make a whole lot of sense. I took screenshots of the exact positions, but since they're only relevant for a no death run, I don't see the need to upload them.

I haven't mentioned it in the guide, but I'm probably also going to work on leaving x1 of Mrbl3 where I can to hold their place so I don't have a lot of useless items cluttering the top of my inventory. I'm going to start running with this plan, so hopefully if I've missed something somebody will let me know before I get there. I'm not doing any more starts so any mistakes will just have to stand. I also didn't mention it, but I swap the E.Key for the F.Stn at the beginning of Segment 3, as I like having the E.Key in the primary spot.

Again, thanks for all the updates. I think it's pretty clear that whenever __sdfg and I have different opinions, he's usually the one that's right.  8)

japanzaman

2010-03-04 08:10:55 am

Sorry for all the posts... but I just stumbled across a really strange bug in the Crpyt that I wonder if anybody else has encountered. I was playing on the rom and after opening the water trap chest and speaking to Karn, I immediately tried to follow him downstairs by holding the up button as soon as the dialogue was done. Oddly enough, my character walked onto the staircase but didn't go anywhere. I stepped off and stepped back on and went downstairs.

Now here is when it gets strange. I speak to Karn and he says his line, then the game freezes. No music, nothing. Completely locked up. This is the only time I have ever experienced this, and I was wondering if anybody else has ever had this happen. I also wonder about playing on a console. This bothers me because the Crypt is a rather tough segment since it follows the Sandworm battle, which can take quite a while to get a decent time and not die. I would really not like that to happen when I'm actually recording Shocked

__sdfg

2010-03-04 07:56:00 pm

D:

I have not had that happen to me, and I hope it's not a persistent bug on the cart. Sad

Sorry for not giving much input. I've been busy this week. Hopefully, I'll have a start at a run plan put together this weekend, and then I'll have more to say.

Abazaba

2010-03-05 08:00:08 am

Long time, no post.

I read your script for the game. Looks very well planned. I had a more philosophical question about death abuse. Is there any particular reason not to use it? Because I see it lacking in a lot of areas of your run, especially post Auria when money isn't as coveted, like segments 8-9. Why not just death abuse back to bleak after crypt? Same with segments 12-13.

If you are truly focused on doing a no death run, then maybe consider the possibility of Nina leveling when you first get to Bleak, to get warp faster. The walk from Crypt to Bleak is pretty hardcore, and walking to and from Auria twice (after tower and after cave). I can't time it out now, but I'm guessing like 10-15 minutes of just walking and menu manipulation.

Based on your walkthrough, you need 3 perfect gslime battles to ensure that when you are finished with Crypt, you will have warp. By perfect, I mean Nina the only survivor. But that isn't too bad. Anyways, just something to think about.

(ed. Just realized you have to walk back to Auria after tower regardless)

Long time, no post.

I read your script for the game.  Looks very well planned.  I had a more philosophical question about death abuse.  Is there any particular reason not to use it?  Because I see it lacking in a lot of areas of your run, especially post Auria when money isn't as coveted, like segments 8-9.  Why not just death abuse back to bleak after crypt?  Same with segments 12-13.

If you are truly focused on doing a no death run, then maybe consider the possibility of Nina leveling when you first get to Bleak, to get warp faster.  The walk from Crypt to Bleak is pretty hardcore, and walking to and from Auria twice (after tower and after cave).  I can't time it out now, but I'm guessing like 10-15 minutes of just walking and menu manipulation.

Based on your walkthrough, you need 3 perfect gslime battles to ensure that when you are finished with Crypt, you will have warp.  By perfect, I mean Nina the only survivor.  But that isn't too bad.  Anyways, just something to think about.

(ed.  Just realized you have to walk back to Auria after tower regardless)

__sdfg

2010-03-05 08:21:28 pm

D:

Just to be clear, the game does not subtract any money for dying. The only penalty for death abuse is that the game refills everyone's health, making it hard to abuse death again.

Also, I would be very surprised if walking out of Krypt and into Bleak took more than six minutes. Getting out of Krypt takes a little over two minutes, and that's a lot of walking. Four minutes for the whole thing sounds more likely to me.

japanzaman

2010-03-07 04:03:26 am

You don't cut nearly as much time with death abuse as you might think. Death abuse isn't just as cut and dry as avoiding a particular amount of walking. You have to die first, and this isn't always a quick and easy thing. Then you have added dialogue and extra saves thrown in. Then you also have to consider where in the Mrbl3 cycle you are when you need to die. You also don't always encounter an enemy right when you want to, and even when you do sometimes they don't kill you very quickly. I estimate losing 5 to 6 minutes TOTAL by not using death abuse. Perhaps this is too low, but 15 minutes is way too high.

Oh, and Nina getting warp early is just a waste of time. Most of the time burned in the Crypt segment is simply walking out of it, not back to Bleak. You'll waste more time with G.Slime fights than you'll gain with the minute you save by not walking from the Crypt to Bleak. Other than that part, I really don't see where getting warp early would be of any use at all.

As for why I'm doing no death... well, I don't like dying! Grin

You don't cut nearly as much time with death abuse as you might think. Death abuse isn't just as cut and dry as avoiding a particular amount of walking. You have to die first, and this isn't always a quick and easy thing. Then you have added dialogue and extra saves thrown in. Then you also have to consider where in the Mrbl3 cycle you are when you need to die. You also don't always encounter an enemy right when you want to, and even when you do sometimes they don't kill you very quickly. I estimate losing 5 to 6 minutes TOTAL by not using death abuse. Perhaps this is too low, but 15 minutes is way too high.

Oh, and Nina getting warp early is just a waste of time. Most of the time burned in the Crypt segment is simply walking out of it, not back to Bleak. You'll waste more time with G.Slime fights than you'll gain with the minute you save by not walking from the Crypt to Bleak. Other than that part, I really don't see where getting warp early would be of any use at all.

As for why I'm doing no death... well, I don't like dying! ;D

DoubleThink

2010-03-07 05:30:21 am

There's a word for that

Should have known that about Warp Undecided

I don't know if you're planning on submitting or what but I think a submission run should really include deathwarping. You're already killing characters off to give extra exp to others so it's hardly a no-death run. This game provides a unique opportunity to deathwarp without any loss of resources, and really all it's doing is saving a bunch of walking.

ON THAT NOTE however, for janus' latest TAS update he mentioned he was going to deposit his money in Tuntar because dying later on would cost him some. I tested dying around Tuntar from the end of the WIP, and it did indeed lose me 1/4 total cash for some reason. This does not appear to be a promising development D:

__sdfg

Edit history:

__sdfg: 2010-03-07 10:40:07 am

2010-03-07 09:46:28 am

D:

Quote from japanzaman:

I estimate losing 5 to 6 minutes TOTAL by not using death abuse. Perhaps this is too low, but 15 minutes is way too high.

Oh, and Nina getting warp early is just a waste of time. Most of the time burned in the Crypt segment is simply walking out of it, not back to Bleak. You'll waste more time with G.Slime fights than you'll gain with the minute you save by not walking from the Crypt to Bleak. Other than that part, I really don't see where getting warp early would be of any use at all.

I agree on both counts. I had once considered fighting for early Warp so I could get the LifeAR and FlameRP ASAP, but I now don't plan on getting those at all, so there is no reason to bother with G.Slimes IMO.

Quote from DoubleThink:

ON THAT NOTE however, for janus' latest TAS update he mentioned he was going to deposit his money in Tuntar because dying later on would cost him some. I tested dying around Tuntar from the end of the WIP, and it did indeed lose me 1/4 total cash for some reason. This does not appear to be a promising development D:

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Right before I posted about the money thing, I opened up an emulator, loaded the first savestate where I could get into fights, and died. I had the same amount of money both before and after dying. At least, I'm pretty sure I did. Maybe less sure than I was before I saw your post.

This requires more investigation.

UPDATE: Okay, here's what's up. In the first half of the game, you lose 1/4 of your gold for falling in battle, rounded down. After Gobi brings the Gills back to the rest of your party, the game changes to saying that, "The party retreats," when you lose a fight, and the penalty for death abuse is lifted. My guess is that the game designers realized that at this point, you have more people in your party than can fit on the battle screen, and it would be strange to say that the offscreen characters automatically died at the same time as the ones onscreen. You still don't get the penalty even if your offscreen characters start the battle dead, though. Also, you don't lose money if you fail a dragon training exercise (and those always say, "The party has fallen," even late in the game).

What this means for me is that I can die in Wisdon for free, but I need some way to replace the cash for the other places I was planning on dying. Most of those are inconsequential, but I was planning on skipping a couple battles before Octo by dying, and that will cost me almost 4000G. Hrmm.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, by the way.

[quote="japanzaman"]I estimate losing 5 to 6 minutes TOTAL by not using death abuse. Perhaps this is too low, but 15 minutes is way too high.

Oh, and Nina getting warp early is just a waste of time. Most of the time burned in the Crypt segment is simply walking out of it, not back to Bleak. You'll waste more time with G.Slime fights than you'll gain with the minute you save by not walking from the Crypt to Bleak. Other than that part, I really don't see where getting warp early would be of any use at all.[/quote]

I agree on both counts.  I had once considered fighting for early Warp so I could get the LifeAR and FlameRP ASAP, but I now don't plan on getting those at all, so there is no reason to bother with G.Slimes IMO.

[quote="DoubleThink"]
ON THAT NOTE however, for janus' latest TAS update he mentioned he was going to deposit his money in Tuntar because dying later on would cost him some. I tested dying around Tuntar from the end of the WIP, and it did indeed lose me 1/4 total cash for some reason. This does not appear to be a promising development D:
[/quote]

[i]Whaaaaaaaaaaaat?[/i]

Right before I posted about the money thing, I opened up an emulator, loaded the first savestate where I could get into fights, and died.  I had the same amount of money both before and after dying.  At least, I'm pretty sure I did.  Maybe less sure than I was before I saw your post.

This requires more investigation.

UPDATE:  Okay, here's what's up.  In the first half of the game, you lose 1/4 of your gold for falling in battle, rounded down.  After Gobi brings the Gills back to the rest of your party, the game changes to saying that, "The party retreats," when you lose a fight, and the penalty for death abuse is lifted.  My guess is that the game designers realized that at this point, you have more people in your party than can fit on the battle screen, and it would be strange to say that the offscreen characters automatically died at the same time as the ones onscreen.  You still don't get the penalty even if your offscreen characters start the battle dead, though.  Also, you don't lose money if you fail a dragon training exercise (and those always say, "The party has fallen," even late in the game).

What this means for me is that I can die in Wisdon for free, but I need some way to replace the cash for the other places I was planning on dying.  Most of those are inconsequential, but I was planning on skipping a couple battles before Octo by dying, and that will cost me almost 4000G.  Hrmm.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, by the way.

japanzaman

2010-03-07 05:55:22 pm

Quote:

I was planning on skipping a couple battles before Octo by dying, and that will cost me almost 4000G. Hrmm.

If you're looking for a quick 5000 GP you could luck manipulate a M.Drop from one of the forced encounters you fight on the ship before Octo. The odds are kind of low, but I have won M.Drops there and it should be doable. But you say you are skipping some encounters...

Perhaps go for the Rage Hammer in Wisdon? Or do you need the cash by Prima?

DoubleThink-

I haven't decided if I'm going to really submit this run or not. I do feel that a properly executed run using death abuse is of more value than a no death run. However, I'm interested to see the overall difference and am also toying around with a single segment run- and death abuse is just completely impossible for that.

__sdfg

2010-03-07 06:27:38 pm

D:

I went back and reevaluated how much money I'll make from boss fights, because my strategies have changed a bit. It turns out that I'm only going to come up $1500 short on my last Mrbl1 run, which I can make back by rejecting the first offer on the DarkDR (or selling some stuff if that drives me insane Wink

). I also have to make a little more money before Auria, but that's not much of a problem.

Also, I had a chance to glance through your second run plan, and I have a few more comments (most of which probably also applied to the first one, but anyway...):

There is a W.Ant on the top floor of the doctor's house in Carmen, hidden under a barrel. It is faster to get than the one in Auria. I see you're also selling the Cure from the same house in Auria, though, so maybe you'll want to keep doing that anyway.
I wasn't sure about whether Toad would be possible without Shin, but since you have your run set up that way, I'm going to try it. It should save a lot of walking time.
Pincher has 390 HP before he flashes, so ThrDr with a Mrbl1 does exactly enough damage to drain his life bar. There is no point having your other characters attack during the first or second round. I also planned on having ThrDr do all the damage in the battle (with three Mrbl1s) and having the other characters defend, which I think might be faster, but the difference is probably not very great if it is.
I think it is slightly faster to get the DarkDR from the Prima flea market than from the Tunlan flea market (by ~5 seconds). I have not checked if the Tunlan flea market has faster customer animations, however. Also, you have to go out of Prima briefly and then go right back in for the DarkDR to become available.
Life2s can be used on characters who are alive, and have the same effect as Cures. I was planning on using the three Melons from Tunlan and a few Life2s from other places to avoid buying any Cures in Tunlan, and spending the money on Mrbl1s instead (for Bain). You may wish to consider doing the same (the Cures are easier to arrange in your inventory, however).
You mention the use of, "three shortcuts," in the swamp in Mogu's dream. It hadn't occurred to me that there might be shortcuts in the bone paths, so I have to thank you for mentioning that they exist. However, I am curious which shortcuts you use. Are you using the shortcuts that take you over by the HeadGear and the Life? If so, there is another path that I think is faster, that only uses one additional shortcut. I've got a couple screenshots attached of the two shortcuts I found, so you can compare. The second one is reached by going northwest from the first shortcut, and then north a few screens. The shortcuts that take you by the HeadGear are northeast of the first shortcut.

I went back and reevaluated how much money I'll make from boss fights, because my strategies have changed a bit.  It turns out that I'm only going to come up $1500 short on my last Mrbl1 run, which I can make back by rejecting the first offer on the DarkDR (or selling some stuff if that drives me insane ;) ).  I also have to make a little more money before Auria, but that's not much of a problem.

Also, I had a chance to glance through your second run plan, and I have a few more comments (most of which probably also applied to the first one, but anyway...):

[list]
[li]There is a W.Ant on the top floor of the doctor's house in Carmen, hidden under a barrel.  It is faster to get than the one in Auria.  I see you're also selling the Cure from the same house in Auria, though, so maybe you'll want to keep doing that anyway.[/li]
[li]I wasn't sure about whether Toad would be possible without Shin, but since you have your run set up that way, I'm going to try it.  It should save a lot of walking time.[/li]
[li]Pincher has 390 HP before he flashes, so ThrDr with a Mrbl1 does exactly enough damage to drain his life bar.  There is no point having your other characters attack during the first or second round.  I also planned on having ThrDr do all the damage in the battle (with three Mrbl1s) and having the other characters defend, which I think might be faster, but the difference is probably not very great if it is.[/li]
[li]I think it is slightly faster to get the DarkDR from the Prima flea market than from the Tunlan flea market (by ~5 seconds).  I have not checked if the Tunlan flea market has faster customer animations, however.  Also, you have to go out of Prima briefly and then go right back in for the DarkDR to become available.[/li]
[li]Life2s can be used on characters who are alive, and have the same effect as Cures.  I was planning on using the three Melons from Tunlan and a few Life2s from other places to avoid buying any Cures in Tunlan, and spending the money on Mrbl1s instead (for Bain).  You may wish to consider doing the same (the Cures are easier to arrange in your inventory, however).[/li]
[li]You mention the use of, "three shortcuts," in the swamp in Mogu's dream.  It hadn't occurred to me that there might be shortcuts in the bone paths, so I have to thank you for mentioning that they exist.  However, I am curious which shortcuts you use.  Are you using the shortcuts that take you over by the HeadGear and the Life?  If so, there is another path that I think is faster, that only uses one additional shortcut.  I've got a couple screenshots attached of the two shortcuts I found, so you can compare.  The second one is reached by going northwest from the first shortcut, and then north a few screens.  The shortcuts that take you by the HeadGear are northeast of the first shortcut.[/li]
[/list]

Attachments:

shortcut1.png

shortcut2.png

japanzaman

Edit history:

japanzaman: 2010-03-08 01:02:51 am

2010-03-08 12:56:09 am

sdfg

Man, getting that DarkDR on the second price could be quite a journey... good luck to you if you decide to go down that path. There are three hidden shortcuts in the swamp, but explaining them is kind of tricky and I don't have a rom in that area of the game available to take quick snapshots right now. The one you don't appear to have pictured comes towards the end where you have a relatively wide open space and a single bone pile laying in the middle. The shortcut lines up with that single bone pile on the bottom. I know that probably doesn't clear things up but it should give you an idea of where to look. If you use all three shortcuts the walk across the marsh is fairly straight, with a little winding here and there. I never walk near the treasures, as my path is pretty much where your pictures are. You just don't have the final shortcut pictured.

As for Toad, he's actually pretty easy without Shin as long as you use Mrbl1. On AB he'd be a beast, but he usually goes down in 8 Mrbl1 blasts and a Fry or two from Bo. As for the Cure's the only reason I like them is because they can be managed quickly, and I have nothing else to really spend my money on at that point. Bain can be AB just about as quickly as Mrbl1 blasting, even faster if you get enough slams. However, if you don't use all the dragon equipment Bain would require some Mrbl1 to beat quickly.

As for Pincher, I'm glad you told me about that. Just one less command to input. I buy the DarkDR in Tunlan simply because I want to have as little to do after I buy that sucker as possible so I don't screw anything up. It'll cost me about 5 seconds, but I get to keep my sanity that way.

sdfg

Man, getting that DarkDR on the second price could be quite a journey... good luck to you if you decide to go down that path. There are three hidden shortcuts in the swamp, but explaining them is kind of tricky and I don't have a rom in that area of the game available to take quick snapshots right now. The one you don't appear to have pictured comes towards the end where you have a relatively wide open space and a single bone pile laying in the middle. The shortcut lines up with that single bone pile on the bottom. I know that probably doesn't clear things up but it should give you an idea of where to look. If you use all three shortcuts the walk across the marsh is fairly straight, with a little winding here and there. I never walk near the treasures, as my path is pretty much where your pictures are. You just don't have the final shortcut pictured.

As for Toad, he's actually pretty easy without Shin as long as you use Mrbl1. On AB he'd be a beast, but he usually goes down in 8 Mrbl1 blasts and a Fry or two from Bo. As for the Cure's the only reason I like them is because they can be managed quickly, and I have nothing else to really spend my money on at that point. Bain can be AB just about as quickly as Mrbl1 blasting, even faster if you get enough slams. However, if you don't use all the dragon equipment Bain would require some Mrbl1 to beat quickly.

As for Pincher, I'm glad you told me about that. Just one less command to input.  I buy the DarkDR in Tunlan simply because I want to have as little to do after I buy that sucker as possible so I don't screw anything up. It'll cost me about 5 seconds, but I get to keep my sanity that way.

__sdfg

2010-03-08 06:37:13 am

D:

I think I tried to walk through every tile around the third shortcut without trying that one. For everyone else's benefit, its location is attached.

Also, I know exactly what you mean about the DarkDR, and I am considering getting it in Tunlan anyway (especially if I decide to save 2000G).

Attachment:

shortcut3.png

japanzaman

2010-03-09 02:45:16 am

Ah, good. You got it. 8)