Breath of Fire

2010-02-03 05:49:19 pm

D:

Minor update: after some testing, I believe that it is worthwhile to get Karn the DarkDR. If you insist on it being the only item you're offered in the segment, you can get it in about 30 seconds. For me, it seemed to save 5-10 seconds in the next few boss battles, yielding an overall reduction in time. Also, it made the run at lot easier, because I could plan on auto-battling most fights after some initial setup in the first turn.

The IcyDR and LifeAR, however, do not seem to help enough to warrant the 2+ minutes it takes to get them. For a segmented run, I don't think you need to heal at all in most battles, and the IcyDR is inferior to the DarkDR. I'm just starting to time things with Mote, though, so maybe my opinion of the LifeAR will change.

Also, Janus has completed his test TAS run-through. I haven't watched it because the RapidShare entry ran out of downloads, but it's supposed to be longer than his Breath of Fire 2 run. I wonder how much longer. :|

__sdfg

Edit history:

__sdfg: 2010-02-14 10:53:09 pm

2010-02-14 10:42:20 pm

D:

Another update: I managed to catch Janus's full run, thanks to Axel posting another upload in the TAS thread. For everyone keeping score at home, Tyr went down after a little under 4:56. I think that time's beatable on the console (not to criticize Janus for doing a test-run-through, but more as a note about what's possible).

A few other things I've determined:

Auto-battling is almost always the fastest strategy. You often need to do some setup work in the first round, like having Nina use ATK-Up, or having Ryu transform, but after that, interruptions slow you down.
The LifeAR is not worth getting, because you don't need to heal in most fights even without it.
The FlameRP is not worth getting, because going through the menu every round to get the extra 90 damage comes out slower than auto-battling in the long run.
Sometimes, in Snes9x, Mote's Inferno attack after you drain his life bar down does 90 HP damage instead of 150 HP. I haven't been able to find anything specific that triggers it, and I don't know if it works on the console, but it seems interesting to me anyway.
It takes so long to walk to the Bain shrine that it might be faster to wait until after Nina can fly to get the second-level dragon powers. If you insist on walking, it adds over three minutes to the run, and with Shin+DarkDR accounting for most of the damage, going from BltDgn to ThrDr doesn't cost as much.

In other words, most of the tricks that make the game easier won't make a segmented run faster.

Another update:  I managed to catch Janus's full run, thanks to Axel posting another upload in the TAS thread.  For everyone keeping score at home, Tyr went down after a little under 4:56.  I think that time's beatable on the console (not to criticize Janus for doing a test-run-through, but more as a note about what's possible).

A few other things I've determined:
[list]
[li]Auto-battling is almost always the fastest strategy.  You often need to do some setup work in the first round, like having Nina use ATK-Up, or having Ryu transform, but after that, interruptions slow you down.[/li]
[li]The LifeAR is not worth getting, because you don't need to heal in most fights even without it.[/li]
[li]The FlameRP is not worth getting, because going through the menu every round to get the extra 90 damage comes out slower than auto-battling in the long run.[/li]
[li]Sometimes, in Snes9x, Mote's Inferno attack after you drain his life bar down does 90 HP damage instead of 150 HP.  I haven't been able to find anything specific that triggers it, and I don't know if it works on the console, but it seems interesting to me anyway.[/li]
[li]It takes so long to walk to the Bain shrine that it might be faster to wait until after Nina can fly to get the second-level dragon powers.  If you insist on walking, it adds over three minutes to the run, and with Shin+DarkDR accounting for most of the damage, going from BltDgn to ThrDr doesn't cost as much.[/li]
[/list]

In other words, most of the tricks that make the game easier won't make a segmented run faster.

japanzaman

2010-02-16 01:50:31 am

This is my first post on SDA, even though I've been lurking around for quite some time. I actually had taken up this particular challenge a few weeks back and just now became aware of this thread and all the other people who apparently feel that Breath of Fire should be represented on SDA. I'm actually in the middle of a demo run that I'm recording and will upload after I've finished. Just to let people know, I don't think I'll be topping 4:56:00...

Okay, this will be random but I wanted to respond to a couple of points in this thread and throw my two cents in.

1) Mote's spells are glitched in the SNES version, which is why Inferno's damage sometimes ranges between 150 and 90. My theory is that sometimes the game references Mote's spread attack for the damage to Inferno, as it seems to coincidental that they should both share the same amount of damage. Either that, or the developers had initially intended to put in another attack for Mote and simply referenced the name and animation as Inferno in the coding.

2) The gold glitch only works in the GBA version from my experience.

3) Autobattle can be faster, but in other ways it can be slower. When I use mrbl 1's to double my damage for Ryu and input other commands quickly, I usually spend less time than watching another auto-battle round, which usually is on the order of 10-15 seconds depending on the enemy and characters in question. So if I finish a battle in 8 rounds using mrbl 1's as opposed to 13 rounds of autobattle, I could easily save 20-30 seconds in the battle if commands are put in in around 5 seconds (more than doable). In longer fights the difference is even more pronounced. Obviously once you get Agni this is kind of a mute point, but for many battles I found I actually finish quicker using manual commands.

I think the only way we're going to come to a definitive conclusion regarding strategy is going to be by timing out a few different styles of runs and then tweaking them down slowly over time.

This is my first post on SDA, even though I've been lurking around for quite some time. I actually had taken up this particular challenge a few weeks back and just now became aware of this thread and all the other people who apparently feel that Breath of Fire should be represented on SDA. I'm actually in the middle of a demo run that I'm recording and will upload after I've finished. Just to let people know, I don't think I'll be topping 4:56:00...

Okay, this will be random but I wanted to respond to a couple of points in this thread and throw my two cents in.

1) Mote's spells are glitched in the SNES version, which is why Inferno's damage sometimes ranges between 150 and 90. My theory is that sometimes the game references Mote's spread attack for the damage to Inferno, as it seems to coincidental that they should both share the same amount of damage. Either that, or the developers had initially intended to put in another attack for Mote and simply referenced the name and animation as Inferno in the coding.

2) The gold glitch only works in the GBA version from my experience.

3) Autobattle can be faster, but in other ways it can be slower. When I use mrbl 1's to double my damage for Ryu and input other commands quickly, I usually spend less time than watching another auto-battle round, which usually is on the order of 10-15 seconds depending on the enemy and characters in question. So if I finish a battle in 8 rounds using mrbl 1's as opposed to 13 rounds of autobattle, I could easily save 20-30 seconds in the battle if commands are put in in around 5 seconds (more than doable). In longer fights the difference is even more pronounced. Obviously once you get Agni this is kind of a mute point, but for many battles I found I actually finish quicker using manual commands.

I think the only way we're going to come to a definitive conclusion regarding strategy is going to be by timing out a few different styles of runs and then tweaking them down slowly over time.

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-16 02:54:54 am

Highly Evolved

You the guy I noticed is posting segments up on Youtube?

I'm guessing so.

__sdfg

2010-02-16 07:05:37 am

D:

Quote from japanzaman:

This is my first post on SDA, even though I've been lurking around for quite some time.

Welcome to the end of your spare time.

Quote:

1) Mote's spells are glitched in the SNES version, which is why Inferno's damage sometimes ranges between 150 and 90. My theory is that sometimes the game references Mote's spread attack for the damage to Inferno, as it seems to coincidental that they should both share the same amount of damage. Either that, or the developers had initially intended to put in another attack for Mote and simply referenced the name and animation as Inferno in the coding.

Okay. The frequency with which the glitch occurred seemed to vary a lot depending on where I took a savestate, so I was thinking it might be emulator-related. If you know of it happening on real hardware, it must be in the game. It's a shame there's no obvious way to trigger it, though.

Quote:

2) The gold glitch only works in the GBA version from my experience.

That's been the conclusion of everyone else here as well. Money must be managed on the SNES.

Quote:

3) Autobattle can be faster, but in other ways it can be slower. When I use mrbl 1's to double my damage for Ryu and input other commands quickly, I usually spend less time than watching another auto-battle round, which usually is on the order of 10-15 seconds depending on the enemy and characters in question. So if I finish a battle in 8 rounds using mrbl 1's as opposed to 13 rounds of autobattle, I could easily save 20-30 seconds in the battle if commands are put in in around 5 seconds (more than doable). In longer fights the difference is even more pronounced. Obviously once you get Agni this is kind of a mute point, but for many battles I found I actually finish quicker using manual commands.

I think the only way we're going to come to a definitive conclusion regarding strategy is going to be by timing out a few different styles of runs and then tweaking them down slowly over time.

I have not yet tried Mrbl1-blasting things, and that is about the only possibility I can think of for outrunning autobattle. I suppose I should have tempered what I said by noting that you can get faster if your manually-input commands do a lot more damage than your automatic ones. A Mrbl1 could be enough. Things like the FlameRP/IcyDR/etc. won't do it, and neither will Bleu's starting spells (and she isn't going to learn much in a speedrun).

The question is whether you gain enough time with Mrbl1s to make up for having to go buy them. If the savings are as dramatic as you say, then Mrbl1s should be the way to go. I'll have to give it a try myself.

[quote="japanzaman"]
This is my first post on SDA, even though I've been lurking around for quite some time.
[/quote]
Welcome to the end of your spare time.

[quote]
1) Mote's spells are glitched in the SNES version, which is why Inferno's damage sometimes ranges between 150 and 90. My theory is that sometimes the game references Mote's spread attack for the damage to Inferno, as it seems to coincidental that they should both share the same amount of damage. Either that, or the developers had initially intended to put in another attack for Mote and simply referenced the name and animation as Inferno in the coding.
[/quote]
Okay.  The frequency with which the glitch occurred seemed to vary a lot depending on where I took a savestate, so I was thinking it might be emulator-related.  If you know of it happening on real hardware, it must be in the game.  It's a shame there's no obvious way to trigger it, though.

[quote]
2) The gold glitch only works in the GBA version from my experience.
[/quote]
That's been the conclusion of everyone else here as well.  Money must be managed on the SNES.

[quote]
3) Autobattle can be faster, but in other ways it can be slower. When I use mrbl 1's to double my damage for Ryu and input other commands quickly, I usually spend less time than watching another auto-battle round, which usually is on the order of 10-15 seconds depending on the enemy and characters in question. So if I finish a battle in 8 rounds using mrbl 1's as opposed to 13 rounds of autobattle, I could easily save 20-30 seconds in the battle if commands are put in in around 5 seconds (more than doable). In longer fights the difference is even more pronounced. Obviously once you get Agni this is kind of a mute point, but for many battles I found I actually finish quicker using manual commands.

I think the only way we're going to come to a definitive conclusion regarding strategy is going to be by timing out a few different styles of runs and then tweaking them down slowly over time.   
[/quote]
I have not yet tried Mrbl1-blasting things, and that is about the only possibility I can think of for outrunning autobattle.  I suppose I should have tempered what I said by noting that you can get faster if your manually-input commands do a [i]lot[/i] more damage than your automatic ones.  A Mrbl1 could be enough.  Things like the FlameRP/IcyDR/etc. won't do it, and neither will Bleu's starting spells (and she isn't going to learn much in a speedrun).

The question is whether you gain enough time with Mrbl1s to make up for having to go buy them.  If the savings are as dramatic as you say, then Mrbl1s should be the way to go.  I'll have to give it a try myself.

japanzaman

2010-02-16 07:21:08 am

I actually ran through this game (did not record) and bought nothing but mrbl 1's and mrbl 3's along with some miscellaneous healing items and went through the game just fine using mrbl 1's with Ryu. I made sure to get Dragon powers as soon as they became available and got Shin but did not get the DrDart because of the cost. I did autobattle Mothra and Morteo though.

As for my run that I was working on, I was clearing data from the other save slots and made a serious boo boo- yes... that one. Cry

So my run is pretty much toast. Got to Prima at about 2:30 and that was without death abuse and using mrbl 1's instead of auto battle. Not really a great time, but there were plenty of minor errors as I wasn't hell bent on getting a perfect time. Maybe I'll start another one up... but you guys sound like you're quite ahead of me in terms of time.

I also took down the youtube segments due to the fact that the run is never going to be complete and I don't really feel like having a half completed run on my account. I still have the files though...

I actually ran through this game (did not record) and bought nothing but mrbl 1's and mrbl 3's along with some miscellaneous healing items and went through the game just fine using mrbl 1's with Ryu. I made sure to get Dragon powers as soon as they became available and got Shin but did not get the DrDart because of the cost. I did autobattle Mothra and Morteo though.

As for my run that I was working on, I was clearing data from the other save slots and made a serious boo boo- yes... that one. :'(

So my run is pretty much toast. Got to Prima at about 2:30 and that was without death abuse and using mrbl 1's instead of auto battle. Not really a great time, but there were plenty of minor errors as I wasn't hell bent on getting a perfect time. Maybe I'll start another one up... but you guys sound like you're quite ahead of me in terms of time.

I also took down the youtube segments due to the fact that the run is never going to be complete and I don't really feel like having a half completed run on my account. I still have the files though...

__sdfg

2010-02-16 05:38:02 pm

D:

I don't have any actual segment times recorded. I timed most of the battles in the second half of the game, and noticed that Janus's TAS was slower than me in a few of the more difficult ones. Janus also talks to a few people who aren't necessary to trigger events, and has to jump around to get some items that he needed near the end (e.g., the Root from Gramor, and healing items from Tunlan). Based on this, I estimated that a faster run could be done, even on the console, but I could be blowing smoke. Tongue

So don't be discouraged.

Really sucks about your save file, though. Sad

Just to compare notes, were you primarily using Ryu to blast through the later battles or did you have anyone else help out? Shin with the DarkDR accounted for a hefty chunk of the damage I did, so I tried to keep Karn alive. Janus used only Ryu, and it seemed to drag him down in places, especially against Mote. On the other hand, he had Ryu at level 21 against Avian, which made that fight go smoother than it did for me with Ryu at level 17, so things could even out.

I don't have any actual segment times recorded.  I timed most of the battles in the second half of the game, and noticed that Janus's TAS was slower than me in a few of the more difficult ones.  Janus also talks to a few people who aren't necessary to trigger events, and has to jump around to get some items that he needed near the end (e.g., the Root from Gramor, and healing items from Tunlan).  Based on this, I estimated that a faster run could be done, even on the console, but I could be blowing smoke. :P  So don't be discouraged.

Really sucks about your save file, though. :(

Just to compare notes, were you primarily using Ryu to blast through the later battles or did you have anyone else help out?  Shin with the DarkDR accounted for a hefty chunk of the damage I did, so I tried to keep Karn alive.  Janus used only Ryu, and it seemed to drag him down in places, especially against Mote.  On the other hand, he had Ryu at level 21 against Avian, which made that fight go smoother than it did for me with Ryu at level 17, so things could even out.

japanzaman

2010-02-16 09:59:56 pm

Get ready for quite a long post since I'm on lunchbreak 8)

I'm pretty confident I know all the trigger sequences and where to pick up all the necessary items and when. I'm also pretty certain of how to handle the run up until it comes time to purchase the G Bar, and from Avian onward. It's the area in between where things are still unclear.

I use Ryu exclusively, and I pick up his secondary powers when they are first available upon getting Gobi's sphere. I keep Nina alive and out of every battle so she's strong enough to help with Mote (has over 90 HP). Karn doesn't need leveling while in Shin and Ox is usually durable, so I usually have Bleu in as cannon fodder while the other 3 wail on the boss, particularly Ryu with mrbl 1.

Mote is a nasty battle. I ran through tons of strategies including using DrDart and even Puka. You can hit Mote 15 times with a physical attack before having to use a magic attack, which means obviously being strong physically is much more benificial for this fight. In my strategy, I go autobattle with Mogu, Ryu, Ox, and Shin for three rounds, then switch to dragon on the fourth while attacking with the others (Mogu is usually dead by now). I then slam him to move the battle to the final phase.

Next round starts with Bleu, Ryu, Shin, and Ox. How healthy my team is and what Mote does changes things up, but I autobattle if I can and on the fourth round swap Nina in and change to Dragon. From here on Nina heals while Shin and Ox attack and Hero slams. If Mote behaves and attacks physically then things go pretty smoothly. If I loose Nina due to Inferno I try and bring her back depending how far into the fight I am.

I end up with Ryu at around 17 or 18 depending on how many other people die throughout the game. This can be somewhat risky because I had one run through where Ryu ended up at 60 MP exactly at level 17. To wind up short would be extremely bad, so I selectively leveled up in certain segments to ensure that wouldn't happen.

Avian can be done at level 17 with all dragon equipment. I don't think you can realistically do him without the gear. I've also noticed that sometimes I can beat the second dragon shrine without an Ice Shield, while other times I need the extra defense to survive. Strange.

I would really like to look into the possibilities of combining certain elements from my plan with some of yours. If I can effectively triple Shin's damage while still blasting with mrbl 1's, that would seem like the way to go. Getting that extra 16K is going to take some tweaking, but the extra time spent could be worth it. I also wonder about the possibilities of LuckUp vs attack up. Does anybody know how much use LuckUp has?

I'm still also out on the fence on whether not to save the kid in the forest for the extra 20K. I know exactly how I could get 65K without him, but things are not quite that simple. Consider:

1) The time it takes to get extra items (Longsword, some gold chests, etc) will easily eat into that 2~ minutes you think you save.

2) You end up with 0 gold left over, which means no mrbl 1 for the fights with Sandworm, Eye, and Cloud. No big deal, right? Well, autobattle is great for battles with enemies that only use single attacks. However, spread attacks take quite a bit of extra time and the more rounds you fight, the more time the battle ends up taking. Eye is pretty notorious for this, and Cloud has a devastate spell that takes quite some time up. By dealing more damage you decrease the overall amount of rounds, which makes getting a battle where the enemy sticks with single attacks easier. The eye will always use his spread attack towards the end, but we can cut the amount of times he uses it with mrbl 1. Cloud can be beaten without getting a devastate off fairly easily using this method as well. So do we do ourselves any favors by skipping out on 20K? I'm not really sure, but the answer isn't as cut and dry as it might appear.

I might actually give this run another go, using my mrbl 1 blast theory and perhaps try to scrounge up enough cash to to get a drdart as well. If Janus got 4:56:00 making some of the mistakes you mentioned, then it seems like getting sub 4:50:00 should be within easy reach. I won't start recording though until I've got all my details planned out, which I'll gladly post here so people can make corrections or use them to make an even faster run.

Peace

Get ready for quite a long post since I'm on lunchbreak 8)

I'm pretty confident I know all the trigger sequences and where to pick up all the necessary items and when. I'm also pretty certain of how to handle the run up until it comes time to purchase the G Bar, and from Avian onward. It's the area in between where things are still unclear.

I use Ryu exclusively, and I pick up his secondary powers when they are first available upon getting Gobi's sphere. I keep Nina alive and out of every battle so she's strong enough to help with Mote (has over 90 HP). Karn doesn't need leveling while in Shin and Ox is usually durable, so I usually have Bleu in as cannon fodder while the other 3 wail on the boss, particularly Ryu with mrbl 1.

Mote is a nasty battle. I ran through tons of strategies including using DrDart and even Puka. You can hit Mote 15 times with a physical attack before having to use a magic attack, which means obviously being strong physically is much more benificial for this fight. In my strategy, I go autobattle with Mogu, Ryu, Ox, and Shin for three rounds, then switch to dragon on the fourth while attacking with the others (Mogu is usually dead by now). I then slam him to move the battle to the final phase.

Next round starts with Bleu, Ryu, Shin, and Ox. How healthy my team is and what Mote does changes things up, but I autobattle if I can and on the fourth round swap Nina in and change to Dragon. From here on Nina heals while Shin and Ox attack and Hero slams. If Mote behaves and attacks physically then things go pretty smoothly. If I loose Nina due to Inferno I try and bring her back depending how far into the fight I am.

I end up with Ryu at around 17 or 18 depending on how many other people die throughout the game. This can be somewhat risky because I had one run through where Ryu ended up at 60 MP exactly at level 17. To wind up short would be extremely bad, so I selectively leveled up in certain segments to ensure that wouldn't happen.

Avian can be done at level 17 with all dragon equipment. I don't think you can realistically do him without the gear. I've also noticed that sometimes I can beat the second dragon shrine without an Ice Shield, while other times I need the extra defense to survive. Strange.

I would really like to look into the possibilities of combining certain elements from my plan with some of yours. If I can effectively triple Shin's damage while still blasting with mrbl 1's, that would seem like the way to go. Getting that extra 16K is going to take some tweaking, but the extra time spent could be worth it. I also wonder about the possibilities of LuckUp vs attack up. Does anybody know how much use LuckUp has?

I'm still also out on the fence on whether not to save the kid in the forest for the extra 20K. I know exactly how I could get 65K without him, but things are not quite that simple. Consider:

1) The time it takes to get extra items (Longsword, some gold chests, etc) will easily eat into that 2~ minutes you think you save.

2) You end up with 0 gold left over, which means no mrbl 1 for the fights with Sandworm, Eye, and Cloud. No big deal, right? Well, autobattle is great for battles with enemies that only use single attacks. However, spread attacks take quite a bit of extra time and the more rounds you fight, the more time the battle ends up taking. Eye is pretty notorious for this, and Cloud has a devastate spell that takes quite some time up. By dealing more damage you decrease the overall amount of rounds, which makes getting a battle where the enemy sticks with single attacks easier. The eye will always use his spread attack towards the end, but we can cut the amount of times he uses it with mrbl 1. Cloud can be beaten without getting a devastate off fairly easily using this method as well. So do we do ourselves any favors by skipping out on 20K? I'm not really sure, but the answer isn't as cut and dry as it might appear.

I might actually give this run another go, using my mrbl 1 blast theory and perhaps try to scrounge up enough cash to to get a drdart as well. If Janus got 4:56:00 making some of the mistakes you mentioned, then it seems like getting sub 4:50:00 should be within easy reach. I won't start recording though until I've got all my details planned out, which I'll gladly post here so people can make corrections or use them to make an even faster run.

Peace

__sdfg

2010-02-17 07:08:51 am

D:

Quote from japanzaman:

I use Ryu exclusively, and I pick up his secondary powers when they are first available upon getting Gobi's sphere. I keep Nina alive and out of every battle so she's strong enough to help with Mote (has over 90 HP). Karn doesn't need leveling while in Shin and Ox is usually durable, so I usually have Bleu in as cannon fodder while the other 3 wail on the boss, particularly Ryu with mrbl 1.

Sounds similar to what I was doing, except that after Nina learned Warp, I used her to cast ATK-Up in the first round and then get beaten up after that. I don't think I needed her for any other purpose at that point (flying excepted).

Quote:

Mote is a nasty battle. I ran through tons of strategies including using DrDart and even Puka. You can hit Mote 15 times with a physical attack before having to use a magic attack, which means obviously being strong physically is much more benificial for this fight. In my strategy, I go autobattle with Mogu, Ryu, Ox, and Shin for three rounds, then switch to dragon on the fourth while attacking with the others (Mogu is usually dead by now). I then slam him to move the battle to the final phase.

Next round starts with Bleu, Ryu, Shin, and Ox. How healthy my team is and what Mote does changes things up, but I autobattle if I can and on the fourth round swap Nina in and change to Dragon. From here on Nina heals while Shin and Ox attack and Hero slams. If Mote behaves and attacks physically then things go pretty smoothly. If I loose Nina due to Inferno I try and bring her back depending how far into the fight I am.

I did something similar, except that I tried to keep Mogu alive through the first part of the battle, and then use him to help with the much longer second part. I also didn't use Nina at all. I had Ox use Cura3 to keep Shin going four or five turns into the second part, and then I used the M.Drop from Tunlan to revive everyone after I drove Mote's life bar down. This strategy let me auto-battle most of the fight. It only worked 1 out of every 30-50 tries, but it kept things moving.

Mote has a long attack animation, so I could see Mrbl1s being faster here, and possibly easier.

Quote:

I end up with Ryu at around 17 or 18 depending on how many other people die throughout the game. This can be somewhat risky because I had one run through where Ryu ended up at 60 MP exactly at level 17. To wind up short would be extremely bad, so I selectively leveled up in certain segments to ensure that wouldn't happen.

That's a good point, if you're planning on using BltDgn. I was planning on waiting on that until after Nina learned to fly, because walking to the shrine adds about 3:10 to the run vs. flying there, and with the DarkDR on Shin, I didn't lose that much time having to use ThrDr (and the DarkDR made autobattling faster even with BltDgn, so I was intent on getting that). With Mrbl1-ing as the primary strategy, getting BltDgn early might become worth it, but I don't know yet.

Quote:

Avian can be done at level 17 with all dragon equipment. I don't think you can realistically do him without the gear. I've also noticed that sometimes I can beat the second dragon shrine without an Ice Shield, while other times I need the extra defense to survive. Strange.

I know you can do Avian at level 17. It's not very fun, though. I alternated two attacking turns with one healing turn -- which isn't a very fast strategy to be begin with -- and still died fairly regularly. I haven't done the math on Ryu's level yet, but it would be cool if he could come in at level 18 without extra effort being required in some other fight.

Quote:

I would really like to look into the possibilities of combining certain elements from my plan with some of yours. If I can effectively triple Shin's damage while still blasting with mrbl 1's, that would seem like the way to go. Getting that extra 16K is going to take some tweaking, but the extra time spent could be worth it. I also wonder about the possibilities of LuckUp vs attack up. Does anybody know how much use LuckUp has?

IIRC it makes it slightly less unlikely that you'll get a critical hit, but not much so. I could be wrong, though.

Also, I was budgeting the full 24000G for the DarkDR, to avoid having to sit through 1000 segment attempts for it rather than 100 or 200. If those extra Mrbl1s become really necessary, though...

Quote:

1) The time it takes to get extra items (Longsword, some gold chests, etc) will easily eat into that 2~ minutes you think you save.

I had already factored that in. The fairy sidequest adds a little over 3:30 to the run. You can get two M.Drops and four Cures prior to this point in about a minute, and they'll sell for 18200G at the shop with the gold bar. That's not quite 20000G, but you don't need the full 20000G to get the G.Bar, so those items count as a substitute. Therefore, the fairy sidequest adds at least two minutes to the run.

Quote:

2) You end up with 0 gold left over, which means no mrbl 1 for the fights with Sandworm, Eye, and Cloud...

That's a good point. Mrbl1s would be helpful there. You need several of them for Mrbl1-ing to be an effective strategy, though, and you're likely to be pretty broke after buying the G.Bar. Is there a way to make enough money to buy Mrbl1s without wasting more time than you'd gain in the battles?

I don't think the fairy sidequest is likely to work for this, because as I said, it takes 3:30 to complete, and I don't think those battles are that long. There might be something else that you can sell, though. I haven't thought about it much yet.

I think you can tell that I really don't like that sidequest. Smiley

[quote="japanzaman"]
I use Ryu exclusively, and I pick up his secondary powers when they are first available upon getting Gobi's sphere. I keep Nina alive and out of every battle so she's strong enough to help with Mote (has over 90 HP). Karn doesn't need leveling while in Shin and Ox is usually durable, so I usually have Bleu in as cannon fodder while the other 3 wail on the boss, particularly Ryu with mrbl 1.
[/quote]
Sounds similar to what I was doing, except that after Nina learned Warp, I used her to cast ATK-Up in the first round and then get beaten up after that.  I don't think I needed her for any other purpose at that point (flying excepted).

[quote]
Mote is a nasty battle. I ran through tons of strategies including using DrDart and even Puka. You can hit Mote 15 times with a physical attack before having to use a magic attack, which means obviously being strong physically is much more benificial for this fight. In my strategy, I go autobattle with Mogu, Ryu, Ox, and Shin for three rounds, then switch to dragon on the fourth while attacking with the others (Mogu is usually dead by now). I then slam him to move the battle to the final phase.

Next round starts with Bleu, Ryu, Shin, and Ox. How healthy my team is and what Mote does changes things up, but I autobattle if I can and on the fourth round swap Nina in and change to Dragon. From here on Nina heals while Shin and Ox attack and Hero slams. If Mote behaves and attacks physically then things go pretty smoothly. If I loose Nina due to Inferno I try and bring her back depending how far into the fight I am.
[/quote]
I did something similar, except that I tried to keep Mogu alive through the first part of the battle, and then use him to help with the much longer second part.  I also didn't use Nina at all.  I had Ox use Cura3 to keep Shin going four or five turns into the second part, and then I used the M.Drop from Tunlan to revive everyone after I drove Mote's life bar down.  This strategy let me auto-battle most of the fight.  It only worked 1 out of every 30-50 tries, but it kept things moving.

Mote has a long attack animation, so I could see Mrbl1s being faster here, and possibly easier.

[quote]
I end up with Ryu at around 17 or 18 depending on how many other people die throughout the game. This can be somewhat risky because I had one run through where Ryu ended up at 60 MP exactly at level 17. To wind up short would be extremely bad, so I selectively leveled up in certain segments to ensure that wouldn't happen.
[/quote]
That's a good point, if you're planning on using BltDgn.  I was planning on waiting on that until after Nina learned to fly, because walking to the shrine adds about 3:10 to the run vs. flying there, and with the DarkDR on Shin, I didn't lose that much time having to use ThrDr (and the DarkDR made autobattling faster even with BltDgn, so I was intent on getting that).  With Mrbl1-ing as the primary strategy, getting BltDgn early might become worth it, but I don't know yet.

[quote]
Avian can be done at level 17 with all dragon equipment. I don't think you can realistically do him without the gear. I've also noticed that sometimes I can beat the second dragon shrine without an Ice Shield, while other times I need the extra defense to survive. Strange.
[/quote]
I know you can do Avian at level 17.  It's not very fun, though.  I alternated two attacking turns with one healing turn -- which isn't a very fast strategy to be begin with -- and still died fairly regularly.  I haven't done the math on Ryu's level yet, but it would be cool if he could come in at level 18 without extra effort being required in some other fight.

[quote]
I would really like to look into the possibilities of combining certain elements from my plan with some of yours. If I can effectively triple Shin's damage while still blasting with mrbl 1's, that would seem like the way to go. Getting that extra 16K is going to take some tweaking, but the extra time spent could be worth it. I also wonder about the possibilities of LuckUp vs attack up. Does anybody know how much use LuckUp has?
[/quote]
IIRC it makes it slightly less unlikely that you'll get a critical hit, but not much so.  I could be wrong, though.

Also, I was budgeting the full 24000G for the DarkDR, to avoid having to sit through 1000 segment attempts for it rather than 100 or 200.  If those extra Mrbl1s become really necessary, though...

[quote]
1) The time it takes to get extra items (Longsword, some gold chests, etc) will easily eat into that 2~ minutes you think you save.
[/quote]
I had already factored that in.  The fairy sidequest adds a little over 3:30 to the run.  You can get two M.Drops and four Cures prior to this point in about a minute, and they'll sell for 18200G at the shop with the gold bar.  That's not quite 20000G, but you don't need the full 20000G to get the G.Bar, so those items count as a substitute.  Therefore, the fairy sidequest adds at least two minutes to the run.

[quote]
2) You end up with 0 gold left over, which means no mrbl 1 for the fights with Sandworm, Eye, and Cloud...
[/quote]
That's a good point.  Mrbl1s would be helpful there.  You need several of them for Mrbl1-ing to be an effective strategy, though, and you're likely to be pretty broke after buying the G.Bar.  Is there a way to make enough money to buy Mrbl1s without wasting more time than you'd gain in the battles?

I don't think the fairy sidequest is likely to work for this, because as I said, it takes 3:30 to complete, and I don't think those battles are [i]that[/i] long.  There might be something else that you can sell, though.  I haven't thought about it much yet.

I think you can tell that I really don't like that sidequest. :)

DoubleThink

2010-02-17 09:03:31 am

There's a word for that

(First parts more directed at japaneezyman)

The guide says that Lk-Up increases Luck/Fate by 20; that gives a static increase of just under 4% more chance to crit to whoever it's used on. Not very useful imo. The easiest way to generate crits is to have characters at low health, which will auto-set their crit chance to 25%... still not really reliable enough, especially considering the added risk.

Atk-Up adds 50 to someone's attack. Shin doubles Karn's base attack, so it gives him +100. Damage is linear, so using it on someone with 150 atk will give 200 atk, and so 4/3 more damage.

I agree Mrbl1's have a lot of time-saving potential, so now I'm wondering if it would be worth it to sell the M.Drops AND get the fairy money. It would give a ton of leeway... at the cost of ~4 minutes... but early-ish in the game. Sigh...

That stuff like not even having enough AP for Agni is just ridiculous though. Extra exp I think will best be gained earlier on, preferably in the form of G.Slimes. They can be encountered in groups of 3 around Bleak I'm pretty sure, which will provide 800 EP to each Ryu, Nina and Bo and 900 GP total. The time lost fighting them can be gained back by having Nina with Warp after the Krypt (and some higher levels), and should also help Ryu reach Lv18 for Avian. Hopefully they won't be too hard to beat, at the very least Bo can take them out with a single Fry.

EyeSpy info:

Quote:

NOTE: EyeSpy starts the battle surrounded by 9 eyeballs. For every 100 points
of damage excluding the current attack, EyeSpy loses one eyeball. As long
as there is at least one eyeball remaining, EyeSpy's normal attacks will
have an ATK value of 128.

Based on that it should be relatively easy to "knock him hard" into his no-eyeball phase, and some higher levels will help survive LStorm, as well as maybe counter the need for too many Mrbl1's there.

(First parts more directed at japaneezyman)

The guide says that Lk-Up increases Luck/Fate by 20; that gives a static increase of just under 4% more chance to crit to whoever it's used on. Not very useful imo. The easiest way to generate crits is to have characters at low health, which will auto-set their crit chance to 25%... still not really reliable enough, especially considering the added risk.

Atk-Up adds 50 to someone's attack. Shin doubles Karn's base attack, so it gives him +100. Damage is linear, so using it on someone with 150 atk will give 200 atk, and so 4/3 more damage.

I agree Mrbl1's have a lot of time-saving potential, so now I'm wondering if it would be worth it to sell the M.Drops AND get the fairy money. It would give a ton of leeway... at the cost of ~4 minutes... but early-ish in the game. Sigh...

That stuff like not even having enough AP for Agni is just ridiculous though. Extra exp I think will best be gained earlier on, preferably in the form of G.Slimes. They can be encountered in groups of 3 around Bleak I'm pretty sure, which will provide 800 EP to each Ryu, Nina and Bo and 900 GP total. The time lost fighting them can be gained back by having Nina with Warp after the Krypt (and some higher levels), and should also help Ryu reach Lv18 for Avian. Hopefully they won't be too hard to beat, at the very least Bo can take them out with a single Fry.

EyeSpy info:
[quote]NOTE: EyeSpy starts the battle surrounded by 9 eyeballs. For every 100 points
of damage excluding the current attack, EyeSpy loses one eyeball. As long
as there is at least one eyeball remaining, EyeSpy's normal attacks will
have an ATK value of 128.
[/quote]Based on that it should be relatively easy to "knock him hard" into his no-eyeball phase, and some higher levels will help survive LStorm, as well as maybe counter the need for too many Mrbl1's there.

japanzaman

Edit history:

japanzaman: 2010-02-17 05:55:44 pm

2010-02-17 05:48:24 pm

First, I'll reply to a couple of points made and then move onto some other stuff.

__sdfg:

I want to get a definitive answer on the Fairy Quest, as it must be answered for this run to have any sort of legitimacy... and there has to be an answer. So I timed the Sandworm and Eye battles on an emulator to see how not having mrbl 1's would affect the overall time. Insteresting stuff:

Sandworm

Using the manual mrbl 1 strategy I timed out consistantly at around 1:51. In the fifty attempts on autobattle I only managed to beat that time once, by about 4 seconds (and I also got 4 slams in that fight). Nina and Bow never survived, and the success rate was around 5%. Manually Nina and Bow always survive, and the success rate is of course 100%. Some time is lost, but factor in that Nina needs experience so she can get warp on time. If I do a custom auto battle where I auto where I can and keep Nina alive, the time goes up to around 2:16. Much slower. Maybe having Nina survive isn't completely necessary, but even then it took close to fifty attempts just to beat my manual time, and could have taken much longer if not for completely freak luck.

Eye

The eye was even more glaring. You cannot purely autobattle this guy and survive, due to his final attacks so you are forced to do a custom autobattle. Best time I got there was 2:33 where Nina and Ryu survive. I always got 1:41 manually, so there's almost 50 seconds. And just to be clear, Ryu surviving by himself in this battle is not even remotely feasible as he would have to heal every other round once the eye got to his final stage, making the fight easily 4 rounds longer, even if you got lucky and slammed every time. So even if you got extremely lucky in the Sandworm fight, you'll still burn close to 40 seconds here, and I know for certain Cloud is completely impossible to autobattle since he attacks with magic that cannot be defended well. I'll run Cloud a little later to get a definite time, but I'm estimating a minute loss with him, perhaps more.

So this is getting us very close to 2:00. Throw in the fact that I don't need to grab many of the items and the time gets even closer. One more point: if you plan on doing death abuse then you won't be able to save between the sandworm and the eye, so you'll have to pray that you get two extremely miraculous battles just to come even close to a manual time with mrbl 1. Not good odds there. Believe me, I would love nothing more than to skip the fairy segment, so I'm actually hoping you're right on this. Getting fast Sandworm, Eye, and Cloud fights without them just looks very tough.

doublethink-

About the eye. Because he loses eyes per attack, the best strategy is to hit him as few times as possible, making the most out of those attacks. Obviously, mrbl 1 with Ryu is the best way to go. He only gets off 1 spread attack when I manually beat him with mrbl 1's, where as he usually gets of 3 or 4 spread attacks when I go without.

As for m drops, I usually only pick up one at Karma to help fund my mrbl 1's, and I get by just fine until I take on the dark dragons in Auria.

Okay, so that's starting to take shape, though still no definitive decision. On another note, I think I'm going to go for a no death abuse run. The first reason is because I really hate dying, even if it speeds things up. The other reason is I don't want anybody stepping on each other's toes so to speak. So my plans are going to be built on around that. It will probably add close to 7 minutes to the final time, but it's all relative. The only other thing I really need to see is whether or not getting that DarkDt is really worth it. It will take some time timing out fights and figuring out the optimal way to raise the extra cash. Maybe somebody else has some opinions on that.

Peace

First, I'll reply to a couple of points made and then move onto some other stuff.

__sdfg:

I want to get a definitive answer on the Fairy Quest, as it must be answered for this run to have any sort of legitimacy... and there has to be an answer. So I timed the Sandworm and Eye battles on an emulator to see how not having mrbl 1's would affect the overall time. Insteresting stuff:

Sandworm

Using the manual mrbl 1 strategy I timed out consistantly at around 1:51. In the fifty attempts on autobattle I only managed to beat that time once, by about 4 seconds (and I also got 4 slams in that fight). Nina and Bow never survived, and the success rate was around 5%. Manually Nina and Bow always survive, and the success rate is of course 100%. Some time is lost, but factor in that Nina needs experience so she can get warp on time. If I do a custom auto battle where I auto where I can and keep Nina alive, the time goes up to around 2:16. Much slower. Maybe having Nina survive isn't completely necessary, but even then it took close to fifty attempts just to beat my manual time, and could have taken much longer if not for completely freak luck.

Eye

The eye was even more glaring. You cannot purely autobattle this guy and survive, due to his final attacks so you are forced to do a custom autobattle. Best time I got there was 2:33 where Nina and Ryu survive. I always got 1:41 manually, so there's almost 50 seconds. And just to be clear, Ryu surviving by himself in this battle is not even remotely feasible as he would have to heal every other round once the eye got to his final stage, making the fight easily 4 rounds longer, even if you got lucky and slammed every time. So even if you got extremely lucky in the Sandworm fight, you'll still burn close to 40 seconds here, and I know for certain Cloud is completely impossible to autobattle since he attacks with magic that cannot be defended well. I'll run Cloud a little later to get a definite time, but I'm estimating a minute loss with him, perhaps more.

So this is getting us very close to 2:00. Throw in the fact that I don't need to grab many of the items and the time gets even closer. One more point: if you plan on doing death abuse then you won't be able to save between the sandworm and the eye, so you'll have to pray that you get two extremely miraculous battles just to come even close to a manual time with mrbl 1. Not good odds there. Believe me, I would love nothing more than to skip the fairy segment, so I'm actually hoping you're right on this. Getting fast Sandworm, Eye, and Cloud fights without them just looks very tough.

doublethink-

About the eye. Because he loses eyes per attack, the best strategy is to hit him as few times as possible, making the most out of those attacks. Obviously, mrbl 1 with Ryu is the best way to go. He only gets off 1 spread attack when I manually beat him with mrbl 1's, where as he usually gets of 3 or 4 spread attacks when I go without.

As for m drops, I usually only pick up one at Karma to help fund my mrbl 1's, and I get by just fine until I take on the dark dragons in Auria.

Okay, so that's starting to take shape, though still no definitive decision. On another note, I think I'm going to go for a no death abuse run. The first reason is because I really hate dying, even if it speeds things up. The other reason is I don't want anybody stepping on each other's toes so to speak. So my plans are going to be built on around that. It will probably add close to 7 minutes to the final time, but it's all relative. The only other thing I really need to see is whether or not getting that DarkDt is really worth it. It will take some time timing out fights and figuring out the optimal way to raise the extra cash. Maybe somebody else has some opinions on that.

Peace

__sdfg

2010-02-17 07:14:42 pm

D:

Sorry, I don't think I was clear enough about the fairy thing. I timed how long the various pieces of the fairy sidequest took last night, to estimate how much time it would add to the run. I ended up with 3:38, so 3:30 seems like it would be a good guess. You might be able to get that down to more like 3:10 with death abuse, but that'll be tough since Ryu gets healed after the dragon shrine IIRC, and you said you're not interested in death abuse anyway (I appreciate the sportsmanship, by the way).

Where the 2:00 figure came from is that you need to raise enough money to buy a G.Bar to advance the plot. Getting the money from selling two M.Drops and four Cures takes a little over a minute. Therefore, if you sell that stuff instead of doing the fairy sidequest, you save at least two minutes. If you assume that you've already got enough money for the G.Bar, though, and you use the fairy sidequest to get extra money for Mrbl1s, it costs you 3:30. You showed that you can gain 0:25 + 0:52 = 1:17 from the battles around Arad, which is a lot, but you still need to save another 2:13 with the remaining Mrbl1s to justify the sidequest. I don't think you'll get there with Cloud. You might get the difference down to under a minute, but it'll probably still be a net loss.

The questions about money in Auria are, therefore:

(a) Is there a way to raise enough cash to buy Mrbl1s for SandWorm/EyeSpy/Cloud without using up more time than the Mrbl1s would gain? I know there are some chests along the way into Auria that I didn't get. It might be possible to sell their contents and come out ahead.

(b) If you do the fairy sidequest, you will presumably get some extra cash, since I don't think you'll need all of the 20000G to buy Mrbl1s for just those three fights. Is there some use for the remaining money later on in the game, such that the sidequest becomes valuable in the long run, that couldn't be satisfied more easily through some other means? I think the answer is, "No," but it's still worth investigating.

I'll go through a FAQ or two later tonight and see which salable items can be taken from chests conveniently. That should help find an answer to (a).

And yes, I agree, whether or not to do the fairy sidequest is a significant question for the run, as it's something most people who've played this game will look at and say, "Oh, right. That thing."

Sorry, I don't think I was clear enough about the fairy thing.  I timed how long the various pieces of the fairy sidequest took last night, to estimate how much time it would add to the run.  I ended up with 3:38, so 3:30 seems like it would be a good guess.  You might be able to get that down to more like 3:10 with death abuse, but that'll be tough since Ryu gets healed after the dragon shrine IIRC, and you said you're not interested in death abuse anyway (I appreciate the sportsmanship, by the way).

Where the 2:00 figure came from is that you need to raise enough money to buy a G.Bar to advance the plot.  Getting the money from selling two M.Drops and four Cures takes a little over a minute.  Therefore, if you sell that stuff [i]instead of[/i] doing the fairy sidequest, you save at least two minutes.  If you assume that you've already got enough money for the G.Bar, though, and you use the fairy sidequest to get extra money for Mrbl1s, it costs you 3:30.  You showed that you can gain 0:25 + 0:52 = 1:17 from the battles around Arad, which is a lot, but you still need to save another 2:13 with the remaining Mrbl1s to justify the sidequest.  I don't think you'll get there with Cloud.  You might get the difference down to under a minute, but it'll probably still be a net loss.

The questions about money in Auria are, therefore:

(a) Is there a way to raise enough cash to buy Mrbl1s for SandWorm/EyeSpy/Cloud without using up more time than the Mrbl1s would gain?  I know there are some chests along the way into Auria that I didn't get.  It might be possible to sell their contents and come out ahead.

(b) If you do the fairy sidequest, you will presumably get some extra cash, since I don't think you'll need all of the 20000G to buy Mrbl1s for just those three fights.  Is there some use for the remaining money later on in the game, such that the sidequest becomes valuable in the long run, that couldn't be satisfied more easily through some other means?  I think the answer is, "No," but it's still worth investigating.

I'll go through a FAQ or two later tonight and see which salable items can be taken from chests conveniently.  That should help find an answer to (a).

And yes, I agree, whether or not to do the fairy sidequest is a significant question for the run, as it's something most people who've played this game will look at and say, "Oh, right.  [i]That[/i] thing."

japanzaman

2010-02-17 09:36:36 pm

___sdfg

Fair enough. Like I said, I really want to get through this segment without doing the fairy quest too. But remember, the times I gave you without mrbl 1 represent the very best attempts out of 50 tries. I'd say the average successful sandworm fight was more like 2:00 and the Eye fight was even worse, more like 2:50. Think about the odds of getting these two runs in the same time (1/50) *(1/50). Then you also have to hope the death battle goes smoothly as well.

japanzaman

2010-02-18 09:36:37 pm

Quote:

(a) Is there a way to raise enough cash to buy Mrbl1s for SandWorm/EyeSpy/Cloud without using up more time than the Mrbl1s would gain? I know there are some chests along the way into Auria that I didn't get. It might be possible to sell their contents and come out ahead.

(b) If you do the fairy sidequest, you will presumably get some extra cash, since I don't think you'll need all of the 20000G to buy Mrbl1s for just those three fights. Is there some use for the remaining money later on in the game, such that the sidequest becomes valuable in the long run, that couldn't be satisfied more easily through some other means? I think the answer is, "No," but it's still worth investigating.

(a) I have been tallying up chests and timing how long it takes to get each respectively to simply getting enough for the G. Bar and moving through the game. Not quite done with timing my battles with Cloud, but the preliminary data suggest that it would be impossible to raise enough money to get the 20000GP necessary to buy 15 mrbl 1. However, by spending 130 SEC you can get enough to buy 11, plus an extra that you get in Auria. As I said earlier, it is possible to get a decent time on Sandworm (though it could take a while), so you could do sandworm on autobattle until you get a great time, and then do Eye and Cloud with mrbl 1. Doing the Fairy Quest and getting just enough treasures to net you 20000 will take around 244 SEC.

(b) There won't be any money left over following my plan.

I'm not quite done yet, but barring some amazing differences in battle times I think the best way would be to skip the fairy quest and invest the time into getting enough cash for about 10~11 mrbl 1. This way you can luck manipulate a decent sandworm fight and then get guaranteed fast fights on the other two battles. Nina will also survive to get more exp, allowing you to get warp quick so you can snag the FlameRP if you want it. I've got a pretty complete table with all the times and chest locations almost finished, so I just need to run Cloud tonight and get the times for the three options (no mrbl 1, some mrbl 1, 15 mrbl 1).

[quote](a) Is there a way to raise enough cash to buy Mrbl1s for SandWorm/EyeSpy/Cloud without using up more time than the Mrbl1s would gain?  I know there are some chests along the way into Auria that I didn't get.  It might be possible to sell their contents and come out ahead.

(b) If you do the fairy sidequest, you will presumably get some extra cash, since I don't think you'll need all of the 20000G to buy Mrbl1s for just those three fights.  Is there some use for the remaining money later on in the game, such that the sidequest becomes valuable in the long run, that couldn't be satisfied more easily through some other means?  I think the answer is, "No," but it's still worth investigating.[/quote]

(a) I have been tallying up chests and timing how long it takes to get each respectively to simply getting enough for the G. Bar and moving through the game. Not quite done with timing my battles with Cloud, but the preliminary data suggest that it would be impossible to raise enough money to get the 20000GP necessary to buy 15 mrbl 1. However, by spending 130 SEC you can get enough to buy 11, plus an extra that you get in Auria. As I said earlier, it is possible to get a decent time on Sandworm (though it could take a while), so you could do sandworm on autobattle until you get a great time, and then do Eye and Cloud with mrbl 1. Doing the Fairy Quest and getting just enough treasures to net you 20000 will take around 244 SEC.

(b) There won't be any money left over following my plan.

I'm not quite done yet, but barring some amazing differences in battle times I think the best way would be to skip the fairy quest and invest the time into getting enough cash for about 10~11 mrbl 1. This way you can luck manipulate a decent sandworm fight and then get guaranteed fast fights on the other two battles. Nina will also survive to get more exp, allowing you to get warp quick so you can snag the FlameRP if you want it. I've got a pretty complete table with all the times and chest locations almost finished, so I just need to run Cloud tonight and get the times for the three options (no mrbl 1, some mrbl 1, 15 mrbl 1).

__sdfg

2010-02-19 12:14:55 am

D:

Hmm, I think I might be timing things differently from you. I've been starting with a savestate at the beginning of the battle, after you've assumed control (so after the opening animation has finished, and the menu has opened). I time from there until the EP/GP acquired message is completely visible. Also, I'm on NTSC, just in case that's the issue.

After a little testing, I got the following estimates for these three fights:

SandWorm - 1:25 with Mrbl1s, 1:50 without = 0:25 difference
EyeSpy - 1:35 with Mrbl1s, 2:10 without = 0:35 difference
Cloud - 1:35 with Mrbl1s, 2:15 without = 0:40 difference

Those are times that seemed reasonable to me, and may not be the average, but I didn't have to try especially hard to get any of them, so I don't think I would take anything slower in a segmented run (again, using my system of timing, and with my particular set of equipment and so forth). I actually had Bo Fry through the SandWorm and EyeSpy fights rather than auto-battling, so that could account for some of the difference between your times and mine (this was supported by a bunch of Acorns that I bought in Romero because I wanted them for fighting Wisp, and figured it would be convenient to stock up).

I was able to figure out how to get 10 Mrbl1s in about 110-115 seconds, which is pretty good, but even if I applied them to the EyeSpy and Cloud fights, it would put me 110 - (35 + 40) = 35 seconds behind. You're right that fighting with Mrbl1s is more reliable, though. I might pick up 5 Mrbl1s for fighting EyeSpy, since I think I can get them in ~45 seconds, and it would allow me to optimize the subsequent death abuse more effectively.

Also, let me know if you want to compare strategies for making money here, getting through these battles, or doing anything else. It could make it easier for us to interpret each other's findings.

Hmm, I think I might be timing things differently from you.  I've been starting with a savestate at the beginning of the battle, after you've assumed control (so after the opening animation has finished, and the menu has opened).  I time from there until the EP/GP acquired message is completely visible.  Also, I'm on NTSC, just in case that's the issue.

After a little testing, I got the following estimates for these three fights:
[list]
[li]SandWorm - 1:25 with Mrbl1s, 1:50 without = 0:25 difference[/li]
[li]EyeSpy - 1:35 with Mrbl1s, 2:10 without = 0:35 difference[/li]
[li]Cloud - 1:35 with Mrbl1s, 2:15 without = 0:40 difference[/li]
[/list]
Those are times that seemed reasonable to me, and may not be the average, but I didn't have to try especially hard to get any of them, so I don't think I would take anything slower in a segmented run (again, using my system of timing, and with my particular set of equipment and so forth).  I actually had Bo Fry through the SandWorm and EyeSpy fights rather than auto-battling, so that could account for some of the difference between your times and mine (this was supported by a bunch of Acorns that I bought in Romero because I wanted them for fighting Wisp, and figured it would be convenient to stock up).

I was able to figure out how to get 10 Mrbl1s in about 110-115 seconds, which is pretty good, but even if I applied them to the EyeSpy and Cloud fights, it would put me 110 - (35 + 40) = 35 seconds behind.  You're right that fighting with Mrbl1s is more reliable, though.  I might pick up 5 Mrbl1s for fighting EyeSpy, since I think I can get them in ~45 seconds, and it would allow me to optimize the subsequent death abuse more effectively.

Also, let me know if you want to compare strategies for making money here, getting through these battles, or doing anything else.  It could make it easier for us to interpret each other's findings.

japanzaman

2010-02-19 11:05:03 pm

Okay, don't have time for a giant post but I'll hit some big points as I think I've got most of this figured out now. Having timed just about all the areas in question, I'm pretty sure I know what works and what doesn't. Here are the main things.

1) Do not do the fairy quest. Having all the mrbl 1's makes the battles more reliable and faster on average, but all we need are a few VERY good battles. I know how to get 5 mrbl 1 in about 40 seconds, so for those using death abuse I think you need to do that for the Eye fight. You'll make most of that time back up anyway. I'll post a detailed breakdown of what I get a little later.

2) DarkDT is the way to go. Karn should be buffed with IcySH and HornHT in Prima. Auto battle should be used for all except a select set of battles (Slime X, Mote, etc...). Now get ready for the pain of sitting through 400 attempts to get that sucker :'(. Gold shouldn't be an issue as not many mrbl 1's are needed outside of the Mote and Avian fight.

My only other question is whether or not to pick up dragon powers immedietly after getting Gobi's sphere or waiting until you have Nina. Walking from Gant to the Dragon shrine adds quite a bit of time, and you'll spend some extra time getting the DragonHT as well. The only way to tell if the trip is justified would be to test out both ways and time them, then see if any made up time compares with the initial time invested. I haven't done that yet but it's something I'll do in my next run through of the game. Just to add to that, having the BoltDr for that boss at the bridge can really help out, as he's got quite a bit of defense and Shin doesn't fare so well against him.

Final plan is starting to finally take shape. If anybody else has some thoughts about any of this please do post, as I'm never reluctant to reexamine a way of doing something if a better time can be gained. Also, I think we should start getting some goal times for battles, as there can be quite a bit of variation when using autobattle. I've got quite a few that look close to what ___sdfg has been posting, but a complete list for everyone to aim for would also be good.

Peace

Okay, don't have time for a giant post but I'll hit some big points as I think I've got most of this figured out now. Having timed just about all the areas in question, I'm pretty sure I know what works and what doesn't. Here are the main things.

1) Do not do the fairy quest. Having all the mrbl 1's makes the battles more reliable and faster on average, but all we need are a few VERY good battles. I know how to get 5 mrbl 1 in about 40 seconds, so for those using death abuse I think you need to do that for the Eye fight. You'll make most of that time back up anyway. I'll post a detailed breakdown of what I get a little later.

2) DarkDT is the way to go. Karn should be buffed with IcySH and HornHT in Prima. Auto battle should be used for all except a select set of battles (Slime X, Mote, etc...). Now get ready for the pain of sitting through 400 attempts to get that sucker :'(. Gold shouldn't be an issue as not many mrbl 1's are needed outside of the Mote and Avian fight.

My only other question is whether or not to pick up dragon powers immedietly after getting Gobi's sphere or waiting until you have Nina. Walking from Gant to the Dragon shrine adds quite a bit of time, and you'll spend some extra time getting the DragonHT as well. The only way to tell if the trip is justified would be to test out both ways and time them, then see if any made up time compares with the initial time invested. I haven't done that yet but it's something I'll do in my next run through of the game. Just to add to that, having the BoltDr for that boss at the bridge can really help out, as he's got quite a bit of defense and Shin doesn't fare so well against him.

Final plan is starting to finally take shape. If anybody else has some thoughts about any of this please do post, as I'm never reluctant to reexamine a way of doing something if a better time can be gained. Also, I think we should start getting some goal times for battles, as there can be quite a bit of variation when using autobattle. I've got quite a few that look close to what ___sdfg has been posting, but a complete list for everyone to aim for would also be good.

Peace

__sdfg

2010-02-20 12:53:06 am

D:

Quote from japanzaman:

1) Do not do the fairy quest. Having all the mrbl 1's makes the battles more reliable and faster on average, but all we need are a few VERY good battles. I know how to get 5 mrbl 1 in about 40 seconds, so for those using death abuse I think you need to do that for the Eye fight. You'll make most of that time back up anyway. I'll post a detailed breakdown of what I get a little later.

I agree. Effective death abuse is going to be what makes that segment for me, so I need the EyeSpy fight to be easy.

Quote:

2) DarkDT is the way to go. Karn should be buffed with IcySH and HornHT in Prima. Auto battle should be used for all except a select set of battles (Slime X, Mote, etc...). Now get ready for the pain of sitting through 400 attempts to get that sucker :'(. Gold shouldn't be an issue as not many mrbl 1's are needed outside of the Mote and Avian fight.

Yeah, I've already tried to mentally prepare myself for the shopping segment as best I can. If I set aside an hour every day for recording attempts, it should get done in a month or so. Tongue

I had jotted down a plan to get the HornHT out of the L.Keep, but it might be faster to get one from that shop, and it would let me get some other stuff, too.

Quote:

My only other question is whether or not to pick up dragon powers immedietly after getting Gobi's sphere or waiting until you have Nina. Walking from Gant to the Dragon shrine adds quite a bit of time, and you'll spend some extra time getting the DragonHT as well. The only way to tell if the trip is justified would be to test out both ways and time them, then see if any made up time compares with the initial time invested.

Fortunately, I've done that, at least for the battle strategies I had. Walking from the DragonHT well is slightly faster than warping to Gant first (the Warp animation is surprisingly slow when you time it), and it takes about 3:25. Flying from the well takes more like 0:12. BltDgn did not make the post-Sphere run three minutes faster for me, so I was planning on delaying it. I don't know how that would change if Mrbl1s were added, though.

I was also planning on skipping the DragonHT and DragonSD, and putting the FlameAR from Spyre on Ryu so he can stand up to Mote. The time saved flying to the DragonHT from the DragonSD is about equal to the time spent getting the FlameAR, and the FlameAR is more useful for that fight anyway. The DragonSD doesn't help much and can be safely ignored (it made a few battles a little faster without the DarkDR on Karn, but was irrelevant with the DarkDR).

Quote:

Also, I think we should start getting some goal times for battles, as there can be quite a bit of variation when using autobattle. I've got quite a few that look close to what ___sdfg has been posting, but a complete list for everyone to aim for would also be good.

I'll try to organize what I've got and post something tomorrow. I haven't done a very good job of shooting for representative times, though: in some cases, I insisted on certain things happening (no Slams, one or two Slams, the boss using or not using some move) so that I could compare different strategies fairly. So any times I give are estimates at best.

Maybe I ought to just turn my notes into a route summary and post that. :/

[quote="japanzaman"]
1) Do not do the fairy quest. Having all the mrbl 1's makes the battles more reliable and faster on average, but all we need are a few VERY good battles. I know how to get 5 mrbl 1 in about 40 seconds, so for those using death abuse I think you need to do that for the Eye fight. You'll make most of that time back up anyway. I'll post a detailed breakdown of what I get a little later.
[/quote]
I agree.  Effective death abuse is going to be what makes that segment for me, so I need the EyeSpy fight to be easy.

[quote]
2) DarkDT is the way to go. Karn should be buffed with IcySH and HornHT in Prima. Auto battle should be used for all except a select set of battles (Slime X, Mote, etc...). Now get ready for the pain of sitting through 400 attempts to get that sucker :'(. Gold shouldn't be an issue as not many mrbl 1's are needed outside of the Mote and Avian fight.
[/quote]
Yeah, I've already tried to mentally prepare myself for the shopping segment as best I can.  If I set aside an hour every day for recording attempts, it should get done in a month or so. :P

I had jotted down a plan to get the HornHT out of the L.Keep, but it might be faster to get one from that shop, and it would let me get some other stuff, too.

[quote]
My only other question is whether or not to pick up dragon powers immedietly after getting Gobi's sphere or waiting until you have Nina. Walking from Gant to the Dragon shrine adds quite a bit of time, and you'll spend some extra time getting the DragonHT as well. The only way to tell if the trip is justified would be to test out both ways and time them, then see if any made up time compares with the initial time invested.
[/quote]
Fortunately, I've done that, at least for the battle strategies I had.  Walking from the DragonHT well is slightly faster than warping to Gant first (the Warp animation is surprisingly slow when you time it), and it takes about 3:25.  Flying from the well takes more like 0:12.  BltDgn did not make the post-Sphere run three minutes faster for me, so I was planning on delaying it.  I don't know how that would change if Mrbl1s were added, though.

I was also planning on skipping the DragonHT and DragonSD, and putting the FlameAR from Spyre on Ryu so he can stand up to Mote.  The time saved flying to the DragonHT from the DragonSD is about equal to the time spent getting the FlameAR, and the FlameAR is more useful for that fight anyway.  The DragonSD doesn't help much and can be safely ignored (it made a few battles a little faster without the DarkDR on Karn, but was irrelevant with the DarkDR).

[quote]
Also, I think we should start getting some goal times for battles, as there can be quite a bit of variation when using autobattle. I've got quite a few that look close to what ___sdfg has been posting, but a complete list for everyone to aim for would also be good.
[/quote]
I'll try to organize what I've got and post something tomorrow.  I haven't done a very good job of shooting for representative times, though:  in some cases, I insisted on certain things happening (no Slams, one or two Slams, the boss using or not using some move) so that I could compare different strategies fairly.  So any times I give are estimates at best.

Maybe I ought to just turn my notes into a route summary and post that. :/

japanzaman

2010-02-21 05:49:17 am

Quote:

I was also planning on skipping the DragonHT and DragonSD, and putting the FlameAR from Spyre on Ryu so he can stand up to Mote.

FlameAR will definitely be enough for Mote. I just wonder about Avian and those Roaches. Getting the DragonHT before Gust would solve both problems, but would cost you a minute and a half at least. I suppose if you can do without, it might be better. Still, I'll test BoltDr with Mrbl 1 and see what I come up with.

Getting closer to putting all of this together. My time has been somewhat limited, but I'm making progress. Be back after I've figured some more of this out. 8)

japanzaman

2010-02-22 12:07:53 am

Just another quick thing. After really sitting down and looking at what it takes to get the BoltDr early, I realized that 3:25 is way too low of an estimate of the actual time it would take. I want to time it all out to be exact but here's what I'm thinking:

3:25 (walking from DragonHT to Shrine)
+
1:00 (getting Rod5- it requires an extra trip into Tunlan palace)
+
1:00 (warping to Arad and walking to get the DragonHT)
+
0:20 (time it takes to go buy a Worm2 in Prima- definitely longer than getting Shell)

Obviously the bottom three are general estimates, but it looks like it could easily take 5 extra minutes. I'm almost certain that time won't be made up with BoltDr, but I want to get some precise times before I draw any conclusions.The real question becomes whether Mrbl is better than pure autobattle. My guess is during HornToad and Mote, but I need to compare times. The money shouldn't be an issue as there should be more than enough to spare. Only question becomes whether or not the time saved outweighs the extra trip to the item shop.

Just another quick thing. After really sitting down and looking at what it takes to get the BoltDr early, I realized that 3:25 is way too low of an estimate of the actual time it would take. I want to time it all out to be exact but here's what I'm thinking:

3:25 (walking from DragonHT to Shrine)
  +
1:00 (getting Rod5- it requires an extra trip into Tunlan palace)
  +
1:00 (warping to Arad and walking to get the DragonHT)
  +
0:20 (time it takes to go buy a Worm2 in Prima- definitely longer than getting Shell)

Obviously the bottom three are general estimates, but it looks like it could easily take 5 extra minutes. I'm almost certain that time won't be made up with BoltDr, but I want to get some precise times before I draw any conclusions.The real question becomes whether Mrbl is better than pure autobattle. My guess is during HornToad and Mote, but I need to compare times. The money shouldn't be an issue as there should be more than enough to spare. Only question becomes whether or not the time saved outweighs the extra trip to the item shop.

__sdfg

2010-02-22 06:49:44 am

D:

I had forgotten about the extra trip to get the Rod5 when I was calculating stuff (though I had planned on getting it when I got the Bolster, somehow), so you're right, going to the second shrine early adds at least 4 minutes to the run. If you assume that you're going to get Agni anyway, though, the time to get the DragonHT and DragonSD isn't so bad. It only makes the run about 40-50 seconds longer if you warp and walk to both of them than it does if you fly. I still don't think they're worth getting until you absolutely need them, though. :|

Also, I was planning on buying a few Worms in Auria when I got the G.Bar. They're at the same shop, so you don't lose much time getting them then. I haven't decided if I want to try for only needing one Worm yet. It's technically faster, but given that it would only save ~3 seconds and a pittance in gold, I'm not sure I want to bother.

Mrbl1s also seem to be better than autobattling in most fights, actually. I haven't worked up to HornToad or Mote yet, but I've been seeing improvements of 10-15 seconds in even some easy battles (e.g. Pincher). The question is, of course, can you get the Mrbl1s conveniently enough to come out ahead overall?

I had forgotten about the extra trip to get the Rod5 when I was calculating stuff (though I had planned on getting it when I got the Bolster, somehow), so you're right, going to the second shrine early adds at least 4 minutes to the run.  If you assume that you're going to get Agni anyway, though, the time to get the DragonHT and DragonSD isn't so bad.  It only makes the run about 40-50 seconds longer if you warp and walk to both of them than it does if you fly.  I still don't think they're worth getting until you absolutely need them, though. :|

Also, I was planning on buying a few Worms in Auria when I got the G.Bar.  They're at the same shop, so you don't lose much time getting them then.  I haven't decided if I want to try for only needing one Worm yet.  It's technically faster, but given that it would only save ~3 seconds and a pittance in gold, I'm not sure I want to bother.

Mrbl1s also seem to be better than autobattling in most fights, actually.  I haven't worked up to HornToad or Mote yet, but I've been seeing improvements of 10-15 seconds in even some easy battles (e.g. Pincher).  The question is, of course, can you get the Mrbl1s conveniently enough to come out ahead overall?

japanzaman

2010-02-22 04:22:36 pm

Not much time, so I'll keep things quick. This has all been verified with a stopwatch:

1) Get boltdr after Nina can fly.

2) Mrbl 1 Avian and Mote (21) and autobattle the rest.

3) Mote can be done with Shin alone, getting support from Ox or using Melon. Forget about Ryu and everybody else needing to survive. I beat Mote in 3:20 just Mrbl 1 blasting with Shin and defending or healing with anybody left alive. Also lets us skip that FlameAR. Ryu needs to make one attack in dragon form to push Mote back a little.

4) Skip DragonHT, as you don't need the defense (unless I'm remembering incorrectly, you don't need it for any of the shrines). DragonSH and DragonAR will get you through Avian at level 18.

I think all the necessary purchases can be made in Tunlan on the way to get the Bolster (21 Mrbl1+Cure). I've also figured out everything from Morteo to Pincher (20 Mrbl1) and how to use them. More details later.

Peace

__sdfg

2010-02-22 04:33:04 pm

D:

Quote from japanzaman:

3) Mote can be done with Shin alone, getting support from Ox or using Melon. Forget about Ryu and everybody else needing to survive. I beat Mote in 3:20 just Mrbl 1 blasting with Shin and defending or healing with anybody left alive. Also lets us skip that FlameAR. Ryu needs to make one attack in dragon form to push Mote back a little.

Oh, wow.

Quote:

4) Skip DragonHT, as you don't need the defense (unless I'm remembering incorrectly, you don't need it for any of the shrines). DragonSH and DragonAR will get you through Avian at level 18.

Hmm, you are correct. It makes it much easier to survive Bain if you go early on, but it is not required.

japanzaman

2010-02-22 06:37:26 pm

Also, let me clarify something from the previous statement. When I say 3:20 for Mote, I'm talking about the second phase. Altogether it takes about 5:00. Still, beating that time on autobattle would require a minor miracle, like slamming almost every turn while Mote sticks to phyiscals on everybody but Shin until the end. Even then, I'm still not sure it's faster, as just using Shin alone to Mrbl1 blast is very fast. The only reason it even takes that long is because of Mote's long attack animation. The other thing about autobattle is that it wastes attacks on Mote. Ryu and Ox aren't going to be putting up near the freakish damage Shin does, so it doesn't make sense to have them attack and push Mote further into his physical immune form. It takes around 13 shots of Mrbl1 to put this guy away in his final form, and that's making close to 800 damage a pop. Ryu and Ox will just waste your time.

This plan doesn't always work, but it has a pretty high chance for success. The only thing that needs to happen is for Mote to lock into dealing 90 HP damage during his final phase. If he's dealing 150, you don't get things done quickly enough due to too much healing required.

As I mentioned, Avian will require 7 Mrbl 1, plus about 4 Cure or Melon. Getting the 21 Mrbl1 and 4 Cure should be possible, but I need to work with some of the possibilities to see what the final plan will be.

Also, let me clarify something from the previous statement. When I say 3:20 for Mote, I'm talking about the second phase. Altogether it takes about 5:00. Still, beating that time on autobattle would require a minor miracle, like slamming almost every turn while Mote sticks to phyiscals on everybody but Shin until the end. Even then, I'm still not sure it's faster, as just using Shin alone to Mrbl1 blast is very fast. The only reason it even takes that long is because of Mote's long attack animation. The other thing about autobattle is that it wastes attacks on Mote. Ryu and Ox aren't going to be putting up near the freakish damage Shin does, so it doesn't make sense to have them attack and push Mote further into his physical immune form. It takes around 13 shots of Mrbl1 to put this guy away in his final form, and that's making close to 800 damage a pop. Ryu and Ox will just waste your time.

This plan doesn't always work, but it has a pretty high chance for success. The only thing that needs to happen is for Mote to lock into dealing 90 HP damage during his final phase. If he's dealing 150, you don't get things done quickly enough due to too much healing required.

As I mentioned, Avian will require 7 Mrbl 1, plus about 4 Cure or Melon. Getting the 21 Mrbl1 and 4 Cure should be possible, but I need to work with some of the possibilities to see what the final plan will be.

__sdfg

Edit history:

__sdfg: 2010-02-22 08:01:22 pm

2010-02-22 07:37:18 pm

D:

I have beaten Mote on autobattle, a few times. It isn't very fun, I needed some extra armor to do it, and I wasn't able to get through the second phase in less than 3:40. Using Mrbl1s is faster and much easier.

Testing just now, I was able to get the time down to a little over 3:00 by having Nina use ATK-Up on Shin on the first turn, and then having the rest of the party defend. I avoided healing for the most part by switching in characters to absorb damage. In this way, it is possible (though not easy) to survive the fight with only one Cure. I ended up using 3 Mrbl1s in the first phase and 12 in the second (though I think you can autobattle the first phase in about the same time if you're willing to let your party take a little more damage).

I'm not sure when the best time to buy things is, either, but I think you'll at least break even buying Mrbl1s for this fight.

UPDATE: I haven't been able to get back down to 3:00 again. Normally more like 3:20. Undecided

Oh, well...

japanzaman

2010-02-22 11:28:09 pm

For Mote:

For the first phase I AtkUp with Nina and Mrbl 1 with Shin. Then I auto-battle, though another Mrbl1 might be a little faster. Should end the battle on that round.

For the second phase I do what you described but I hold off on using Cure or Melon, as those come in handy a little later. Ox can use Cure3 until he dies. Same with Nina. Getting 3:00 is even faster than what I got, so props to you for that. Sounds like a nice goal to shoot for.

As for buying, I'm trying to work things out so we only need one last shopping trip to end the game. Getting 21000 isn't too hard. The problem is getting our healing items. I think we'll need around 6 or 7 cure for the final set of battles:

Bain- 1 (or 0 if you're lucky or using DragonSH)
Avian- 3/4
Zog- 1
Jade-1

So that leaves us with about 6, maybe 7 cure or melon to get. I know where we can get 5 melon without too much trouble, but that still leaves us with some cure to buy. Assuming we need 25000 we aren't going to get there by the time we hit Tunlan unless we snag the extra M.Drop in the volcano. Also, this is non death abuse so you could be facing even higher deficits. I know I had about 2K after buying the DarkDR, so the extra 5K should be enough for me. I'm guessing the only good time to buy will be when we hit Tunlan for the Bolster.

The only other thing that concerns me is keeping my trips to the inn down as low as possible. Doing this requires to have a couple of Life's on hand to resurrect Nina after certain fights (RugaX, G.Fly, FlowerX, HornToad. Going to the Inn burns so much time, it seems like such a waste to use it for one character. I know where a few Life2's can be had through some luck manipulation, but I still think I'll be buying at least two. This could add an extra 1200 (I'll be buying them in Auria just before fighting Squid.) I need to play through one final time to make sure I've got all my numbers right.

Let me know if these Cure estimates seem off. I know Zog can probably be beaten without using a Melon, and if so there's some extra cash. Plus, you might be gunning to beat Jade without needing to heal. I'm thinking about it, but that's quite a long time to fight for each failed segment.

For Mote:

For the first phase I AtkUp with Nina and Mrbl 1 with Shin. Then I auto-battle, though another Mrbl1 might be a little faster. Should end the battle on that round.

For the second phase I do what you described but I hold off on using Cure or Melon, as those come in handy a little later. Ox can use Cure3 until he dies. Same with Nina. Getting 3:00 is even faster than what I got, so props to you for that. Sounds like a nice goal to shoot for.

As for buying, I'm trying to work things out so we only need one last shopping trip to end the game. Getting 21000 isn't too hard. The problem is getting our healing items. I think we'll need around 6 or 7 cure for the final set of battles:

Bain- 1 (or 0 if you're lucky or using DragonSH)
Avian- 3/4
Zog- 1
Jade-1

So that leaves us with about 6, maybe 7 cure or melon to get. I know where we can get 5 melon without too much trouble, but that still leaves us with some cure to buy. Assuming we need 25000 we aren't going to get there by the time we hit Tunlan  unless we snag the extra M.Drop in the volcano. Also, this is non death abuse so you could be facing even higher deficits. I know I had about 2K after buying the DarkDR, so the extra 5K should be enough for me. I'm guessing the only good time to buy will be when we hit Tunlan for the Bolster.

The only other thing that concerns me is keeping my trips to the inn down as low as possible. Doing this requires to have a couple of Life's on hand to resurrect Nina after certain fights (RugaX, G.Fly, FlowerX, HornToad. Going to the Inn burns so much time, it seems like such a waste to use it for one character. I know where a few Life2's can be had through some luck manipulation, but I still think I'll be buying at least two. This could add an extra 1200 (I'll be buying them in Auria just before fighting Squid.) I need to play through one final time to make sure I've got all my numbers right.

Let me know if these Cure estimates seem off. I know Zog can probably be beaten without using a Melon, and if so there's some extra cash. Plus, you might be gunning to beat Jade without needing to heal. I'm thinking about it, but that's quite a long time to fight for each failed segment.