Star Fox 64 Expert All Medals FINISHED

2006-09-14 02:52:30 am

Long live SF64!

I've got some awesome news coming as soon as a certain video finishes uploading, but until then I've got a technical question: Is "retry level" allowed to be abused for wings / health / or bombs? I can't see it happening more than 2 or 3 times in a run (at the end of each path actually...), and I don't think it would detract from the quality of the run, plus since lives are very much limited in the game it's almost like using an item. Really the only cause would be to obtain bombs on Solar or Bolse, or to replace my wings after entering the tunnel on Venom.

What are your opinions on suicide abuse in SF64?

petrie911

2006-09-14 04:18:31 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

I'm fine with it, but Radix might consider it death abuse. You may want to ask him.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-09-14 05:34:15 am

2006-09-14 05:33:21 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Oh, I'm almost certain he'd consider it death abuse, but who cares? You really don't have to avoid using it, especially when the deaths contribute something (usually relocation, but refills too) to a run. Technically, someone else could do a run without death abuse, but then their run would count as a separate category and wouldn't replace yours (and I'm doubting anyone would make another run for quite some time).

Shocked

Ooooh what is it, what is it!?! Did you record a full-game run? Did you beat 1:30:00?? Did you finish an optimized run!?

Saestrol

2006-09-14 06:31:56 am

Speed Running Joy-bringer

But wait a moment. Retry, at the cost of an Arwing, sets you back at the begining of the level with 3 A-Bombs, 000 Hits and single lasers. When used on the planet map, moves back a stage the same things.

What gain is there in doing that though? Other than A-bombs, I can't think of the use.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-09-14 08:31:00 pm

2006-09-14 06:55:51 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

I meant retry as soon as you enter the level just to get three bombs (if you have zero). Not to mention, an hour and a half into a run, you might screw something up (lose a wing by colliding with teammates at ~~Sector Z~~ Venom 2 and then miss several subsequent kills, for instance) which might benefit from a restart if you haven't wasted too much time in the level, already. But other than that, yes, you're right that it wouldn't be particularly useful, but there are at least some benefits.

Psonar

Edit history:

Psonar: 2006-09-14 10:01:10 am

2006-09-14 09:57:57 am

Long live SF64!

Hey Insipid, ya know how you keep pestering me about that I should beat StrangenessDSS's redline run someday? Well, I regret to say I could only beat it by 77 seconds so far, but hey it's the best I could do...take it or leave it. (see: SF64_redline.normal.nocredits_3611.wmv [309 MB])

What's just weird is that the first time I beat TSA's time was by 77 seconds, and then the same for this one! Oh and my final score was 707...freaky. I added some description to my archive page about it being an entirely distinct route from the pure speedruns previously done.

On suicide abuse, it takes about 2 or 3 seconds to do (except Aquas takes like 6...weird), and it will replace your damaged wings, restart you at the last hard savepoint (like the Andross tunnel), and it gives you 3 bombs and full health. If Star Wolf left me wingless, then in the tunnel ALL laser upgrades are wingrepairs that don't change back! Single lasers for Andross sucks and is a waste of time, so I save time by retrying and getting hyper lasers.

Suppose I had a collision on Katina before the mothership arrives, but after my 15th kill (laser upgrade on 15th kill) ...that would mean I'm stuck with single lasers and guarateed a wing repair from Rob 64. If I retry though I lose however long I'd been there, and probably 9 bombs, but I regain my wings and can have double lasers after the 15th kill and the possibility for a better item from ROB64, etc.

Then I would definitely not have enough bombs for Solar -> retry again...bam! 3 bombs, but I'm back to single lasers...well the first firebat after you pass Bill has lasers and there are 4 or 5 more in the level even in Expert Mode.

A collision with a shield tower at Bolse would also suck, but for that I would continue destroying the towers then after the shield goes down, I'd manually suicide by ramming the ground (4 good hits at most). A death will start you at a checkpoint where a retry will restart the level except on Venom. Then, since I've got new life at the checkpoint, the 15th enemy I kill (though it will be my 39th point...) will give me a laser upgrade! Which means after destroying about 5 of the spots on the core, I'll trigger ROB64's item box to get a 4th bomb which can save up to 30 seconds on the core.

Suicides need to be treated with some strategy and care, and in a perfect run they'd never happen of course. They are a "bail" that I think is a fair use of game mechanics, just as the Super Mario 64 "exit level" is used to warp out off the basement. Radix doesn't like it, but then if the other hour and 29 minutes kick butt then who cares?

Sorry for posting so late...I fell asleep. Sure makes uploads go quicker when you fall asleep. Enjoy that minimal redline run I posted! Death abuse is still up for debate if there are any other comments. Comments on existing videos or times or where you want me to practice are welcomed!

Thanks for the continued support!

Edit: just for the record, if I lose a wing in Sector Z I go get repaired by going in the back of the ship...then I fight like crazy to catch back up! Having a "repair" in the middle of the run is just so hilarious to me that is what I would do.... that and catching back up on kills and still owning the missiles with mere single lasers would be a good show... unless I blow it!--> Restart!

Hey Insipid, ya know how you keep pestering me about that I should beat StrangenessDSS's [color=Red]redline run[/color] someday?  Well, I regret to say I could only beat it by 77 seconds so far, but hey it's the best I could do...[url=http://www.archive.org/details/StarFox64SpeedRun100SSPractice][b]take it or leave it[/b][/url]. (see: SF64_redline.normal.nocredits_3611.wmv [309 MB])

What's just [i]weird[/i] is that the first time I beat TSA's time was by 77 seconds, and then the same for this one!  Oh and my final score was 707...freaky.  I added some description to my archive page about it being an entirely [i]distinct[/i] route from the pure speedruns previously done.

On suicide abuse, it takes about 2 or 3 seconds to do (except Aquas takes like 6...weird), and it will replace your damaged wings, restart you at the last hard savepoint (like the Andross tunnel), and it gives you 3 bombs and full health.  If Star Wolf left me wingless, then in the tunnel ALL laser upgrades are wingrepairs that don't change back!  Single lasers for Andross sucks and is a waste of time, so I [i]save time[/i] by retrying and getting hyper lasers.

Suppose I had a collision on Katina before the mothership arrives, but after my 15th kill (laser upgrade on 15th kill) ...that would mean I'm stuck with single lasers and guarateed a wing repair from Rob 64.  If I retry though I lose however long I'd been there, and probably 9 bombs, but I regain my wings and can have double lasers after the 15th kill and the possibility for a better item from ROB64, etc.

Then I would definitely not have enough bombs for Solar -> retry again...bam! 3 bombs, but I'm back to single lasers...well the first firebat after you pass Bill has lasers and there are 4 or 5 more in the level even in Expert Mode.

A collision with a shield tower at Bolse would also suck, but for that I would continue destroying the towers then [i]after[/i] the shield goes down, I'd manually suicide by ramming the ground (4 good hits at most).  A death will start you at a checkpoint where a retry will restart the level except on Venom.  Then, since I've got new life at the checkpoint, the 15th enemy I kill  (though it will be my 39th point...) will give me a laser upgrade!  Which means after destroying about 5 of the spots on the core, I'll trigger ROB64's item box to get a 4th bomb which can save up to 30 seconds on the core.

Suicides need to be treated with some strategy and care, and in a perfect run they'd never happen of course.  They are a "bail" that I think is a fair use of game mechanics, just as the Super Mario 64 "exit level" is used to warp out off the basement.  Radix doesn't like it, but then if the other hour and 29 minutes kick butt then who cares?

Sorry for posting so late...I fell asleep.  Sure makes uploads go quicker when you fall asleep.  Enjoy that minimal redline run I posted!  Death abuse is still up for debate if there are any other comments.  Comments on existing videos or times or where you want me to practice are welcomed!

Thanks for the continued support!

Edit:  just for the record, if I lose a wing in Sector Z I go get repaired by going in the back of the ship...then I fight like crazy to catch back up!  Having a "repair" in the middle of the run is just so hilarious to me that is what I would do.... that and catching back up on kills and still owning the missiles with mere single lasers would be a good show... unless I blow it!--> Restart!

InsipidMuckyWater

2006-09-14 11:31:59 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Quote:

Hey Insipid, ya know how you keep pestering me about that I should beat StrangenessDSS's redline run someday? Well, I regret to say I could only beat it by 77 seconds so far, but hey it's the best I could do...take it or leave it. (see: SF64_redline.normal.nocredits_3611.wmv [309 MB])

Edit: just for the record, if I lose a wing in Sector Z I go get repaired by going in the back of the ship...then I fight like crazy to catch back up! Having a "repair" in the middle of the run is just so hilarious to me that is what I would do.... that and catching back up on kills and still owning the missiles with mere single lasers would be a good show... unless I blow it!--> Restart!

EXCELLENT!! I'll update the first post with some more bold lettering.

Oh, yeah, I guess Sector Z was a really bad example on my part; the Star Wolf battle on Venom 2 and your other ideas are definitely better.

And yeah, I'm with you on suicides. Smiley

[quote]Hey Insipid, ya know how you keep pestering me about that I should beat StrangenessDSS's [color=Red]redline run[/color] someday?  Well, I regret to say I could only beat it by 77 seconds so far, but hey it's the best I could do...[url=http://www.archive.org/details/StarFox64SpeedRun100SSPractice][b]take it or leave it[/b][/url]. (see: SF64_redline.normal.nocredits_3611.wmv [309 MB])

Edit:  just for the record, if I lose a wing in Sector Z I go get repaired by going in the back of the ship...then I fight like crazy to catch back up!  Having a "repair" in the middle of the run is just so hilarious to me that is what I would do.... that and catching back up on kills and still owning the missiles with mere single lasers would be a good show... unless I blow it!--> Restart![/quote]

EXCELLENT!!  I'll update the first post with some more bold lettering.

Oh, yeah, I guess Sector Z was a really bad example on my part; the Star Wolf battle on Venom 2 and your other ideas are definitely better.

And yeah, I'm with you on suicides.   :)

Psonar

2006-09-14 11:56:14 am

Long live SF64!

Hehe, thanks. Don't go too crazy with the first post. I wouldn't mind if TSA, StrangenessDSS, or SirVG stopped in here to contribute and just because I'm beating their times doesn't mean I don't appreciate their work or their help. I think it's just that other folks are dusting this game off where I never stopped playing it.

Below are some overdue responses we may continue to discuss...

InsipidMuckyWater

Quote:

So, what happened here? [SX and BO] I don't think you mentioned them just above

In Sector X Peppy’s wild flying after I saved him clipped my wing. I may need to segment my boosts here so that I’m not in the same plane as him moving forward. Comparing that time with my blueline I think there was like a 5 second difference, and since the blueline was improveable I said it was a 10 second loss.

Bolse suffers from just taking too long (imagine that…and in a speedrun of all things!). I tend to not have hyper lasers or enough bombs to do it justice. As I improve in the blueline route in general this will get better. First I need to finish Sector X with atleast 1 or 2 bombs and hyper lasers, then not die in Titania and finish Titania with 3-5 bombs, then I’ll be set on Bolse.

Also I found out the core appears on Bolse after killing 10 enemies after the forcefield drops (should be the 34th kill). This helps to be able to predict the level.

InsipidMuckyWater

Quote:

How do you move so quickly?? [on BO] That, or the sluggish physics I remember so well do not pertain to either expert mode or to runs where Wolf has already been eliminated at Fortuna..?

Bolse is in All-Range Mode obviously, but the trick is that while you fly normal, the satellite is moving underneath you. The wonky physics is due to the relative motion of you w/respect to the satellite. The satellite rotates counter clockwise, so if you move in a clockwise arc, you go twice as fast relative to the ground, or if you move in a counter-clockwise arc, at the right distance from the center you will be sitting still in mid air. If you fly a straight path along the radius of the satellite, you will perceive it’s rotation underneath you. This rotation stops after you destroy the forcefield, but then the core continues to rotate on it’s own. An extremely awesome level design. Something like it appeared in the original Star Fox.

Hehe, thanks.  Don't go too crazy with the first post.  I wouldn't mind if TSA, StrangenessDSS, or SirVG stopped in here to contribute and just because I'm beating their times doesn't mean I don't appreciate their work or their help.  I think it's just that other folks are dusting this game off where I never stopped playing it.

Below are some overdue responses we may continue to discuss...

InsipidMuckyWater[quote]So, what happened here?  [SX and BO] I don't think you mentioned them just above[/quote]

In Sector X Peppy’s wild flying after I saved him clipped my wing.  I may need to segment my boosts here so that I’m not in the same plane as him moving forward.  Comparing that time with my blueline I think there was like a 5 second difference, and since the blueline was improveable I said it was a 10 second loss.

Bolse suffers from just taking too long (imagine that…and in a speedrun of all things!).  I tend to not have hyper lasers or enough bombs to do it justice.  As I improve in the blueline route in general this will get better.  First I need to finish Sector X with atleast 1 or 2 bombs and hyper lasers, then not die in Titania and finish Titania with 3-5 bombs, then I’ll be set on Bolse.

Also I found out the core appears on Bolse after killing 10 enemies [i]after[/i] the forcefield drops (should be the 34th kill).  This helps to be able to predict the level.

InsipidMuckyWater[quote]How do you move so quickly?? [on BO] That, or the sluggish physics I remember so well do not pertain to either expert mode or to runs where Wolf has already been eliminated at Fortuna..?[/quote]

Bolse is in All-Range Mode obviously, but the trick is that while you fly normal, the satellite is moving underneath you.  The wonky physics is due to the relative motion of you w/respect to the satellite.  The satellite rotates counter clockwise, so if you move in a clockwise arc, you go twice as fast relative to the ground, or if you move in a counter-clockwise arc, at the right distance from the center you will be sitting still in mid air.  If you fly a straight path along the radius of the satellite, you will perceive it’s rotation underneath you.  This rotation stops after you destroy the forcefield, but then the core continues to rotate on it’s own.  An extremely awesome level design.  Something like it appeared in the original Star Fox.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-09-14 08:19:34 pm

2006-09-14 08:18:31 pm

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Quote:

Bolse suffers from just taking too long (imagine that…and in a speedrun of all things!). I tend to not have hyper lasers or enough bombs to do it justice. As I improve in the blueline route in general this will get better. First I need to finish Sector X with atleast 1 or 2 bombs and hyper lasers, then not die in Titania and finish Titania with 3-5 bombs, then I’ll be set on Bolse.

Bolse is in All-Range Mode obviously, but the trick is that while you fly normal, the satellite is moving underneath you. The wonky physics is due to the relative motion of you w/respect to the satellite. The satellite rotates counter clockwise, so if you move in a clockwise arc, you go twice as fast relative to the ground, or if you move in a counter-clockwise arc, at the right distance from the center you will be sitting still in mid air. If you fly a straight path along the radius of the satellite, you will perceive it’s rotation underneath you. This rotation stops after you destroy the forcefield, but then the core continues to rotate on it’s own. An extremely awesome level design. Something like it appeared in the original Star Fox.

Wow; you'd think I would've known that about Bolse. I guess I never once flew in the other direction when I played, and I'm a pretty decent player, myself. I guess I need to be more experimental!

Btw, how do you perform Sector X? Your practice video suggests you maintain the Mission Complete route; would it be faster to take the warp and then adjust the route back to Titania? I'm not sure, though; the warp seems closer to the final boss than in Meteo, but it's certainly possible the alternate route would prove more expedient and would probably bolster your bomb supply... If you haven't tried, yet, you might want to test this.

[quote]Bolse suffers from just taking too long (imagine that…and in a speedrun of all things!).  I tend to not have hyper lasers or enough bombs to do it justice.  As I improve in the blueline route in general this will get better.  First I need to finish Sector X with atleast 1 or 2 bombs and hyper lasers, then not die in Titania and finish Titania with 3-5 bombs, then I’ll be set on Bolse.

Bolse is in All-Range Mode obviously, but the trick is that while you fly normal, the satellite is moving underneath you.  The wonky physics is due to the relative motion of you w/respect to the satellite.  The satellite rotates counter clockwise, so if you move in a clockwise arc, you go twice as fast relative to the ground, or if you move in a counter-clockwise arc, at the right distance from the center you will be sitting still in mid air.  If you fly a straight path along the radius of the satellite, you will perceive it’s rotation underneath you.  This rotation stops after you destroy the forcefield, but then the core continues to rotate on it’s own.  An extremely awesome level design.  Something like it appeared in the original Star Fox.
[/quote]

Wow; you'd think I would've known that about Bolse.  I guess I never once flew in the other direction when I played, and I'm a pretty decent player, myself.  I guess I need to be more experimental!

Btw, how do you perform Sector X?  Your practice video suggests you maintain the Mission Complete route; would it be faster to take the warp and then adjust the route back to Titania?  I'm not sure, though; the warp seems closer to the final boss than in Meteo, but it's certainly possible the alternate route would prove more expedient and would probably bolster your bomb supply...  If you haven't tried, yet, you might want to test this.

Psonar

Edit history:

Psonar: 2006-09-15 12:26:05 am

2006-09-14 10:26:51 pm

Long live SF64!

Quote:

Btw, how do you perform Sector X? Your practice video suggests you maintain the Mission Complete route; would it be faster to take the warp and then adjust the route back to Titania? I'm not sure, though; the warp seems closer to the final boss than in Meteo, but it's certainly possible the alternate route would prove more expedient and would probably bolster your bomb supply... If you haven't tried, yet, you might want to test this.

You read my mind! I was reading back at the beginnings in the redline topic and I mentioned that the warp or even just the "left > no warp > boss" instead of "right > defense system > boss" could be faster. Considering the suprising difference the warp made in Meteo, it may very well be faster. I believe the Sector X time from the blueline video is around 4:45, and I'll check the time from the 26:12 minimal run later, unless you want to go get those times for me Wink

. That's a route that really needs to be tested.

[EDIT]Woohoo! - I looked at TSA's times, and even with his horrid braking on the warp gates and whatnot his SX Select-SZ Select was 4:39! I'll see what it's like medaling on that route, but I think we have a winner![/EDIT]

[EDIT2]My 25:41 and 26:12 minimal runs both show exactly 4:20 for a minimal Sector X run, which is a whopping 27 seconds less than my blueline run of it (which I watched and is not very improveable). It's the lack of ending dialogue after a warp zone that makes them so dang profitable...I'm going to go test it to get the new Expert Medal SX w/warp time...I'm shooting for 4:25.[/EDIT2]

[EDIT3]I just made 2 attempts at it that went pretty well, and I got right at 4:30, so that route will save 17 seconds! Yay![/EDIT3]

[hr]
There are to my memory two other random things to test...

(For a quick look, see the routes laid out further down...)
Katina and Fortuna are interchangeable, and the results of switching the two routes haven't been tested. The alternate portions would be: CO-ME-FO-SO and CO-ME-KA-SX. The biggest difference is:

1) After Fortuna: 6 bombs and hyper lasers
2) After Katina: Less than 4 bombs and single laser

Less than 4 is meant to imply I'll be doing a restart on the following level to get bombs. So, ths begs the question, which route demands more bombs or lasers?

Solar needs at least 2 bombs and 1 more acquired along the way to be done properly. Macbeth doesn't even need bombs, though 1 at the beginning is nice and that's usually supplied in Solar by an Item Box or fire bird.

Sector X on the current route can benefit from 3 bombs, 1 of which is mandatory to save Peppy, the other two save about 2 seconds and some health (even risk of death) by killing the butterflies. I gain 1 bomb in Sector X from the item box. There's another in the opening sequence but I've yet to kill enough enemies to acquire it. This leaves 4 bombs for Titania coming from Fortuna. Titania and Bolse combined however use a ton. I think I actually use about 4 bombs on Titania, and I gain 3 while there, leaving me about 3 for Bolse, which is very doable as I gain 1 more while there (Rob64).

Coming from Katina and being more bomb conservative in Sector X would mean 1 bomb used and 1 gained leaving 3 (from restart) for Titania, leaving about 2 for Bolse (not as good). That switch would mean 6 bombs in Solar, and then at least 3 or 4 for Macbeth, which is admitted overkill for both.

[hr]
Another option is to Reset after Titania and go to Bolse from Macbeth. The resulting differences would be: ...SX-TI-RESET and ...SO-MB-BO.

This concept would largely depend on the decision made above between Fortuna and Katina. If I went FO-SO-MB-BO, There'd be no Starwolf and more bombs for BO, but if I went KA-SO-MB-BO, I'd be facing Star Wolf on Bolse. My thought is that snagging 22 points from 2 starwolf members might just be enough to make that medal go a lot faster. Think about it they aren't that hard to kill, they won't slow me down much, they shouldn't kill any teammates, and their consolidated packets of 11 points a pop! Plus it'd be more exiting getting to do all 3 starwolf battles in the 1 run! Choosing to face Starwolf from Katina I think I'd have the needed bombs for Bolse if I can come out of Solar with at least 2 extra, then not use any and gain 1 in Macbeth. That'd give 3 for Bolse, and a 4th in the item box (which comes after destroying 5 core spots I think). Since Solar will finish with hypers and Macbeth is not a death-risk the hyper lasers will be awesome to have in Bolse. Somehow between Sector X and Titania I keep losing them.

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense...here's the current route:

CO - ME - FO - SX - TI - BO
CO - ME - KA - SO - MB
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Here's the FO/KA Swap Route:
CO - ME - KA - SX - TI - BO
CO - ME - FO - SO - MB
CO - ME - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Here's the MB-BO Route:
CO - ME - FO - SX - TI
CO - ME - KA - SO - MB - BO
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Here's the FO->MB-BO Route:
CO - ME - KA - SX - TI
CO - ME - FO - SO - MB - BO
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Does anyone have any comments on the above proposed routes?

EDIT: added [EDIT] block towards top of post concerning SX warp -> Titania
EDIT 2: added [EDIT 2] block directly below [EDIT 1]! Yay for new info and not double posting!
Edit 3: Grin

see above

[quote]Btw, how do you perform Sector X?  Your practice video suggests you maintain the Mission Complete route; would it be faster to take the warp and then adjust the route back to Titania?  I'm not sure, though; the warp seems closer to the final boss than in Meteo, but it's certainly possible the alternate route would prove more expedient and would probably bolster your bomb supply...  If you haven't tried, yet, you might want to test this.[/quote]

You read my mind!  I was reading back at the beginnings in the redline topic and I mentioned that the warp or even just the "left > no warp > boss" instead of "right > defense system > boss" could be faster.  Considering the suprising difference the warp made in Meteo, it may very well be faster.  I believe the Sector X time from the blueline video is around 4:45, and I'll check the time from the 26:12 minimal run later, unless [i]you want to go get those times for me[/i]  ;) .  That's a route that [i]really[/i]  needs to be tested.

[EDIT]Woohoo! - I looked at [url=http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l35/flutefreak7/Other%20Images/SF64_TSAtimes.jpg]TSA's times[/url], and even with his horrid braking on the warp gates and whatnot his SX Select-SZ Select was 4:39!  I'll see what it's like medaling on that route, but [b]I think we have a winner![/b][/EDIT]

[EDIT2]My 25:41 and 26:12 minimal runs both show exactly 4:20 for a minimal Sector X run, which is a whopping 27 seconds less than my blueline run of it (which I watched and is not very improveable).  It's the lack of ending dialogue after a warp zone that makes them so dang profitable...I'm going to go test it to get the new Expert Medal SX w/warp time...I'm shooting for 4:25.[/EDIT2]

[EDIT3]I just made 2 attempts at it that went pretty well, and I got right at 4:30, so that route will save 17 seconds! Yay![/EDIT3]

[hr]
[center]There are to my memory two other random things to test...[/center]

(For a quick look, see the routes laid out further down...)
[b]Katina and Fortuna are interchangeable[/b], and the results of switching the two routes haven't been tested.  The alternate portions would be: CO-ME-FO-SO and CO-ME-KA-SX. The biggest difference is:

1) After Fortuna: 6 bombs and hyper lasers
2) After Katina: Less than 4 bombs and single laser

Less than 4 is meant to imply I'll be doing a restart on the following level to get bombs.  So, ths begs the question, which route demands more bombs or lasers?

Solar needs at least 2 bombs and 1 more acquired along the way to be done properly.  Macbeth doesn't even need bombs, though 1 at the beginning is nice and that's usually supplied in Solar by an Item Box or fire bird.

Sector X on the current route can benefit from 3 bombs, 1 of which is mandatory to save Peppy, the other two save about 2 seconds and some health (even risk of death) by killing the butterflies.  I gain 1 bomb in Sector X from the item box.  There's another in the opening sequence but I've yet to kill enough enemies to acquire it.  This leaves 4 bombs for Titania coming from Fortuna.  Titania and Bolse combined however use a ton.  I think I actually use about 4 bombs on Titania, and I gain 3 while there, leaving me about 3 for Bolse, which is very doable as I gain 1 more while there (Rob64).

Coming from Katina and being more bomb conservative in Sector X would mean 1 bomb used and 1 gained leaving 3 (from restart) for Titania, leaving about 2 for Bolse (not as good).  That switch would mean 6 bombs in Solar, and then at least 3 or 4 for Macbeth, which is admitted overkill for both.

[hr]
Another option is to Reset after Titania and [b]go to Bolse from Macbeth.[/b]  The resulting differences would be: ...SX-TI-RESET  and  ...SO-MB-BO.

This concept would largely depend on the decision made above between Fortuna and Katina.  If I went FO-SO-MB-BO, There'd be no Starwolf and more bombs for BO, but if I went KA-SO-MB-BO, I'd be facing Star Wolf on Bolse.  My thought is that snagging 22 points from 2 starwolf members might just be enough to make that medal go a lot faster.  Think about it they aren't [i]that[/i] hard to kill, they won't slow me down much, they shouldn't kill any teammates, and their consolidated packets of 11 points a pop!  Plus it'd be more exiting getting to do all 3 starwolf battles in the 1 run!  Choosing to face Starwolf from Katina I think I'd have the needed bombs for Bolse if I can come out of Solar with at least 2 extra, then not use any and gain 1 in Macbeth.  That'd give 3 for Bolse, and a 4th in the item box (which comes after destroying 5 core spots I think).  Since Solar will finish with hypers and Macbeth is not a death-risk the hyper lasers will be awesome to have in Bolse.  Somehow between Sector X and Titania I keep losing them.

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense...here's the [b]current route[/b]:

CO - ME - FO - SX - TI - BO
CO - ME - KA - SO - MB
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Here's the [b]FO/KA Swap Route[/b]:
CO - ME - KA - SX - TI - BO
CO - ME - FO - SO - MB
CO - ME - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Here's the [b]MB-BO Route[/b]:
CO - ME - FO - SX - TI
CO - ME - KA - SO - MB - BO
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Here's the [b]FO->MB-BO Route[/b]:
CO - ME - KA - SX - TI
CO - ME - FO - SO - MB - BO
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Does anyone have any comments on the above proposed routes?[b][/b]

EDIT: added [EDIT] block towards top of post concerning SX warp -> Titania
EDIT 2: added [EDIT 2] block directly below [EDIT 1]!  Yay for new info and not double posting!
Edit 3:  ;D see above

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-09-15 01:43:21 am

2006-09-15 01:40:13 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Quote:

Katina and Fortuna are interchangeable, and the results of switching the two routes haven't been tested. The alternate portions would be: CO-ME-FO-SO and CO-ME-KA-SX. The biggest difference is:

1) After Fortuna: 6 bombs and hyper lasers
2) After Katina: Less than 4 bombs and single laser

Less than 4 is meant to imply I'll be doing a restart on the following level to get bombs. So, ths begs the question, which route demands more bombs or lasers?

Well, I can tell you that much. Solar and Macbeth are not going to give you bombs, so the yellow line route could benefit. However, we decided you would visit Meteo in the yellow line route, so you'll be proceeding to either Katina or Fortuna with eight or nine bombs, I'd imagine. Does your bomb calculation above include Meteo's contribution? If not, then yellow line will not be needing any help with bombs, as they're not used too much altogether after Katina. If so, yellow line will probably still not be desperate for them, but Solar could use the lasers, I imagine. Though, Sector X would lose them. Which level needs hyper lasers the most? (If Solar, we have a tie; you'd have to decide whether having hyper lasers on Solar is more essential than having bombs for blue line, and even here I'm going to vote having bombs for blue line. If Sector X, we would have a possible hat trick reasoning to keep Fortuna where it is.)

Quote:

Solar needs at least 2 bombs and 1 more acquired along the way to be done properly. Macbeth doesn't even need bombs, though 1 at the beginning is nice and that's usually supplied in Solar by an Item Box or fire bird.

Sector X on the current route can benefit from 3 bombs, 1 of which is mandatory to save Peppy, the other two save about 2 seconds and some health (even risk of death) by killing the butterflies. I gain 1 bomb in Sector X from the item box. There's another in the opening sequence but I've yet to kill enough enemies to acquire it. This leaves 4 bombs for Titania coming from Fortuna. Titania and Bolse combined however use a ton. I think I actually use about 4 bombs on Titania, and I gain 3 while there, leaving me about 3 for Bolse, which is very doable as I gain 1 more while there (Rob64).

Coming from Katina and being more bomb conservative in Sector X would mean 1 bomb used and 1 gained leaving 3 (from restart) for Titania, leaving about 2 for Bolse (not as good). That switch would mean 6 bombs in Solar, and then at least 3 or 4 for Macbeth, which is admitted overkill for both.

Exactly.

Quote:

[b]Another option is to Reset after Titania and go to Bolse from Macbeth. The resulting differences would be: ...SX-TI-RESET and ...SO-MB-BO.

This concept would largely depend on the decision made above between Fortuna and Katina. If I went FO-SO-MB-BO, There'd be no Starwolf and more bombs for BO, but if I went KA-SO-MB-BO, I'd be facing Star Wolf on Bolse. My thought is that snagging 22 points from 2 starwolf members might just be enough to make that medal go a lot faster. Think about it they aren't that hard to kill, they won't slow me down much, they shouldn't kill any teammates, and their consolidated packets of 11 points a pop! Plus it'd be more exiting getting to do all 3 starwolf battles in the 1 run! Choosing to face Starwolf from Katina I think I'd have the needed bombs for Bolse if I can come out of Solar with at least 2 extra, then not use any and gain 1 in Macbeth. That'd give 3 for Bolse, and a 4th in the item box (which comes after destroying 5 core spots I think). Since Solar will finish with hypers and Macbeth is not a death-risk the hyper lasers will be awesome to have in Bolse. Somehow between Sector X and Titania I keep losing them.

Well, I'm not really convinced, here. Are you sure adding Wolf to the mix would help your speed?? This will have to be tested before I believe it; plus, going Ka-So-MB-Bo seems to add several more negatives than positives, especially if Wolf actually adds time when you're only really compelled to kill him twice in the run. Besides, you wouldn't need hyper lasers if you were doing Bolse without Wolf, in the first place. Am I right?

You know the game better than I, but right now I'm voting against your proposed route modification. You can always try to persuade me, though! Wink

[quote][b]Katina and Fortuna are interchangeable[/b], and the results of switching the two routes haven't been tested.  The alternate portions would be: CO-ME-FO-SO and CO-ME-KA-SX. The biggest difference is:

1) After Fortuna: 6 bombs and hyper lasers
2) After Katina: Less than 4 bombs and single laser

Less than 4 is meant to imply I'll be doing a restart on the following level to get bombs.  So, ths begs the question, which route demands more bombs or lasers?  [/quote]

Well, I can tell you that much.  Solar and Macbeth are not going to give you bombs, so the yellow line route could benefit.  However, we decided you would visit [b]Meteo[/b] in the yellow line route, so you'll be proceeding to either Katina or Fortuna with eight or nine bombs, I'd imagine.  Does your bomb calculation above include Meteo's contribution?  [i]If not[/i], then yellow line will not be needing any help with bombs, as they're not used too much altogether after Katina.  [i]If so[/i], yellow line will probably still not be desperate for them, but Solar could use the lasers, I imagine.  Though, Sector X would lose them.  Which level needs hyper lasers the most?  ([i]If Solar[/i], we have a tie; you'd have to decide whether having hyper lasers on Solar is more essential than having bombs for blue line, and even here I'm going to vote having bombs for blue line.  [i]If Sector X[/i], we would have a possible hat trick reasoning to keep Fortuna where it is.)

[quote]Solar needs at least 2 bombs and 1 more acquired along the way to be done properly.  Macbeth doesn't even need bombs, though 1 at the beginning is nice and that's usually supplied in Solar by an Item Box or fire bird.

Sector X on the current route can benefit from 3 bombs, 1 of which is mandatory to save Peppy, the other two save about 2 seconds and some health (even risk of death) by killing the butterflies.  I gain 1 bomb in Sector X from the item box.  There's another in the opening sequence but I've yet to kill enough enemies to acquire it.  This leaves 4 bombs for Titania coming from Fortuna.  Titania and Bolse combined however use a ton.  I think I actually use about 4 bombs on Titania, and I gain 3 while there, leaving me about 3 for Bolse, which is very doable as I gain 1 more while there (Rob64).

Coming from Katina and being more bomb conservative in Sector X would mean 1 bomb used and 1 gained leaving 3 (from restart) for Titania, leaving about 2 for Bolse (not as good).  That switch would mean 6 bombs in Solar, and then at least 3 or 4 for Macbeth, which is admitted overkill for both.[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote][b]Another option is to Reset after Titania and [b]go to Bolse from Macbeth.[/b]  The resulting differences would be: ...SX-TI-RESET  and  ...SO-MB-BO.

This concept would largely depend on the decision made above between Fortuna and Katina.  If I went FO-SO-MB-BO, There'd be no Starwolf and more bombs for BO, but if I went KA-SO-MB-BO, I'd be facing Star Wolf on Bolse.  My thought is that snagging 22 points from 2 starwolf members might just be enough to make that medal go a lot faster.  Think about it they aren't [i]that[/i] hard to kill, they won't slow me down much, they shouldn't kill any teammates, and their consolidated packets of 11 points a pop!  Plus it'd be more exiting getting to do all 3 starwolf battles in the 1 run!  Choosing to face Starwolf from Katina I think I'd have the needed bombs for Bolse if I can come out of Solar with at least 2 extra, then not use any and gain 1 in Macbeth.  That'd give 3 for Bolse, and a 4th in the item box (which comes after destroying 5 core spots I think).  Since Solar will finish with hypers and Macbeth is not a death-risk the hyper lasers will be awesome to have in Bolse.  Somehow between Sector X and Titania I keep losing them. [/quote]

Well, I'm not really convinced, here.  Are you sure adding Wolf to the mix would help your speed??  This will have to be tested before I believe it; plus, going Ka-So-MB-Bo seems to add several more negatives than positives, especially if Wolf actually adds time when you're only really compelled to kill him twice in the run. Besides, you wouldn't [i]need[/i] hyper lasers if you were doing Bolse without Wolf, in the first place.  Am I right?

You know the game better than I, but right now I'm voting against your proposed route modification.  You can always try to persuade me, though!  ;)

petrie911

2006-09-15 01:54:30 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

MB-BO is something to consider, but it should definitely be tested first.

How many of those little things are there to destroy on Bolse's Core?

Psonar

Edit history:

Psonar: 2006-09-15 03:57:13 am

2006-09-15 02:57:08 am

Long live SF64!

I'm not sure yet whether the Solar route or Sector X route would benefit more from the bombs and lasers granted by Fortuna. I will say that Sector X has 3 laser upgrades available, so single lasers don't affect much there. 0 bombs could be used in SX with the faster warp route (that's right, read my edits!, warp route will save 15-20 seconds!), though 2 bomb uses would be nice (1 helps for the medal "Group behind us, man they're fast" - the other for the butterfly...but I think I can out-boost that particular butterfly - no 2nd Peppy save on the warp route!). So SX doesn't ask much except for insane piloting skills through the Expert Mode lair of wing breaking! But I've got that covered I think. In other words, I'll try the FO-KA switch and see how it goes...

On the MB-BO proposition, keep this in mind...

Answering InsipidMuckyWater's Question
Yeah-huh I need hyper lasers in Bolse! That's why I keep quoting a 30 second or so loss there because it's taking me forever to round up the points. The extra ships on Bolse are very sparse compared to say Katina, and single lasers slows down killing the towers by 5 to 10 seconds too because with hyper lasers I boost from tower to tower more quickly.

Answering Petrie911's Question
There must be 8 spots on the core thanks to evidence in the 26:12 minimal video.

The towers net you 24 points. After 10 more obligatory points, the core will appear => 34. Examining my 26:12 speedrun I see 8 spots are providing 88 more points giving me 122 (130 in that video due to 8 more kills). So where do the other 27 points come from? I think I can kill 2 Star Wolf cronies and 5 enemy ships / laser turrets faster than darting around and killing 27 ships, or even 15 ships including 7 hit+ points. When I have 4 easy SW ships flying around on a normal day the first 2 take like 10 seconds, and I can incorporate it into bombing runs on the core to make a continuous stream of hit+10's....yeah right...but still, I'm going to see if I can convince you of this anyway! Also, the extra ships come in in waves. There are not 27 extra points right away meaning the air kinda empties out until another wave drops in, which slows things down.

This route would be a lot of fun and would make people wonder why the paths were chosen:

CO - ME - KA - SX - TI
CO - ME - FO - SO - MB - BO
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Each run adds 1 more level, blue and yellow get mixed up for crazy awesome time-saving reasons (that are nothing until they're tested, yes) , and then redline is entirely at the end with SZ-A6-VE being the finale!

Ok, now I'm rambling, but yeah, I'm off to test all the new ideas and get some video if possible! Video is an easy way to time, and then if they suck I won't post them, but if they're good, then up it goes! Oh and I have a tripod now that helps me see the TV straight on with the video camera (Bye bye TV tray and stack of books!). I'll be posting if anything interesting comes up! I've got two videos of the SZ warp, but both feature very avoidable mistakes. I'll get a video of that being done off of a retry tonight (will demonstrate as if I came from Katina)...retrying is like a save state...much easier than Resetting!

Off to play!

I'm not sure yet whether the Solar route or Sector X route would benefit more from the bombs and lasers granted by Fortuna.  I will say that Sector X has 3 laser upgrades available, so single lasers don't affect much there.  0 bombs could be used in SX with the faster warp route (that's right, read my edits!, warp route will save 15-20 seconds!), though 2 bomb uses would be nice (1 helps for the medal "Group behind us, man they're fast" - the other for the butterfly...but I think I can out-boost that particular butterfly - no 2nd Peppy save on the warp route!).  So SX doesn't ask much except for insane piloting skills through the Expert Mode lair of wing breaking!  But I've got that covered I think.  In other words, I'll try the FO-KA switch and see how it goes...

On the MB-BO proposition, keep this in mind...

[b]Answering InsipidMuckyWater's Question[/b]
Yeah-huh I need hyper lasers in Bolse!  That's why I keep quoting a 30 second or so loss there because it's taking me forever to round up the points.  The extra ships on Bolse are very sparse compared to say Katina, and single lasers slows down killing the towers by 5 to 10 seconds too because with hyper lasers I boost from tower to tower more quickly.

[b]Answering Petrie911's Question[/b]
There must be 8 spots on the core thanks to evidence in the 26:12 minimal video.

The towers net you 24 points.  After 10 more obligatory points, the core will appear => 34.  Examining my 26:12 speedrun I see 8 spots are providing 88 more points giving me 122 (130 in that video due to 8 more kills).  So where do the other 27 points come from?  I think I can kill 2 Star Wolf cronies and 5 enemy ships / laser turrets faster than darting around and killing 27 ships, or even 15 ships including 7 hit+ points.  When I have 4 easy SW ships flying around on a normal day the first 2 take like 10 seconds, and I can incorporate it into bombing runs on the core to make a continuous stream of hit+10's....yeah right...but still, I'm going to see if I can convince you of this anyway!  Also, the extra ships come in in waves.  There are not 27 extra points right away meaning the air kinda empties out until another wave drops in, which slows things down.

This route would be a lot of fun and would make people wonder why the paths were chosen:

CO - ME - KA - SX - TI
CO - ME - FO - SO - MB - BO
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

Each run adds 1 more level, blue and yellow get mixed up for crazy awesome time-saving reasons (that are nothing until they're tested, yes) , and then redline is entirely at the end with SZ-A6-VE being the finale!

Ok, now I'm rambling, but yeah, I'm off to test all the new ideas and get some video if possible!  Video is an easy way to time, and then if they suck I won't post them, but if they're good, then up it goes!  Oh and I have a tripod now that helps me see the TV straight on with the video camera (Bye bye TV tray and stack of books!).  I'll be posting if anything interesting comes up!  I've got two videos of the SZ warp, but both feature very avoidable mistakes.  I'll get a video of that being done off of a retry tonight (will demonstrate as if I came from Katina)...retrying is like a save state...much easier than Resetting!

Off to play!

petrie911

2006-09-15 05:33:03 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

Having StarWolf in BO sounds good. You can do that whether you go FO-SX or KA-SX, as whichever route goes through KA can just go to BO.

FO->MB-BO sounds like an interesting route, too. But whether or not it's better must be determined.

Psonar

2006-09-15 06:11:19 am

Long live SF64!

Having played some, Star Wolf is only feasible with hyper lasers, and also much more feasible if the two SW members killed are Andrew and Wolf. Why? Slippy kept dying, and Wolf was more a pest than I expected. On a fully optimized game, killing Wolf on the way in, then Andrew seconds later, then about 3 or 4 bombing passes on the core, and Bolse would be perfect. However, I'm not going that far yet because that's a very difficult and luck-driven task that would be more suited to a later improvement or a segmented run. (This game has segment potential because of the restarts)

I think that FO - SO - MB - BO works very well actually because I had like 6 or 7 bombs on Bolse which just kicked butt, and no Star Wolf to deal with. Plus I had turbo lasers and just whooped up on Solar. On Macbeth I find going without the bomb to actually be better for points. I just destroy 2 rock-cars, then CUS the rest of the rocks and I came out with near 200 points no problem...I'll trim that down later by not killing as many train cars bcause they cause lag. I bet I'd save 10-15 seconds on lag avoidance. The key here is this basically guarantees hyper lasers and 5-7 bombs on Bolse! That is how I'd like to end the 2nd run! That and if a difficult to avoid collision happens in Sector X (remember I'm taking the warp now), it won't matter a bit because I'll be in the tank for Titania and thats the last level on the 1st run... (the runs may be reversed...so whatever)

OK, so the route that tickles my fancy right now is:

CO - ME - KA - SX - TI (high risk KA at beginning = good!)
CO - ME - FO - SO - MB - BO
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

What do you think? This will mean I'm working up videos for each of those 3 runs if there's not too much debate...? Thanks for the feedback, and I'm glad to find there's more strategy to be figured out still!

On a sidenote I looked at Twin Galaxies and someone has submitted and beaten TSA's minimal run (no online video though Cry

)! However his time is in the upper 26's, so I plant to beat him and I already posted such in a forum over there ;). They'll accept video camera of the screen (my favorite format by now! ;D), so I'll likely make a video of a playback of my VHS 25:41, and then I'll have it up for previewing by the meager masses at SDA!

Having played some, Star Wolf is only feasible with hyper lasers, and also much more feasible if the two SW members killed are Andrew and Wolf.  Why?  Slippy kept dying, and Wolf was more a pest than I expected.  On a fully optimized game, killing Wolf on the way in, then Andrew seconds later, then about 3 or 4 bombing passes on the core, and Bolse would be perfect.  However, I'm not going that far yet because that's a very difficult and luck-driven task that would be more suited to a later improvement or a segmented run.  (This game has segment potential because of the restarts)

I think that FO - SO - MB - BO works very well actually because I had like 6 or 7 bombs on Bolse which just kicked butt, and no Star Wolf to deal with.  Plus I had turbo lasers and just whooped up on Solar.  On Macbeth I find going without the bomb to actually be better for points.  I just destroy 2 rock-cars, then CUS the rest of the rocks and I came out with near 200 points no problem...I'll trim that down later by not killing as many train cars bcause they cause lag.  I bet I'd save 10-15 seconds on lag avoidance.  The key here is this basically guarantees hyper lasers and 5-7 bombs on Bolse!  [i]That[/i] is how I'd like to end the 2nd run!  That and if a difficult to avoid collision happens in Sector X (remember I'm taking the warp now), it won't matter a bit because I'll be in the tank for Titania and thats the last level on the 1st run... (the runs may be reversed...so whatever)

OK, so the route that tickles my fancy right now is:

CO - ME - KA - SX - TI   (high risk KA at beginning = good!)
CO - ME - FO - SO - MB - BO
CO - SY - AQ - ZO - SZ - A6 - VE

What do you think?  This will mean I'm working up videos for each of those 3 runs if there's not too much debate...?  Thanks for the feedback, and I'm glad to find there's more strategy to be figured out still!

On a sidenote I looked at Twin Galaxies and someone has submitted and beaten TSA's minimal run (no online video though  :'( )!  However his time is in the upper 26's, so I plant to beat him and I already posted such in a forum over there  ;).  They'll accept video camera of the screen (my favorite format by now!  ;D), so I'll likely make a video of a playback of my VHS 25:41, and then I'll have it up for previewing by the meager masses at SDA!

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-09-15 08:24:59 am

2006-09-15 06:23:13 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Yeah, having Wolf at Bolse sounds fine in theory, but again, by having Wolf and Bolse in the yellow line, he would not face him at Fortuna. This implies he would have to last through Katina, Solar, Macbeth, AND Bolse with only the bombs from Meteo (though, luckily, he should have hyper lasers at least). Also, he'd have to go straight from Katina to Sector X and Titania with less bombs than he's had thus far (and he's said he'd need them, there); of course, it's possible the bombs are all non-issues considering the option of retrying, but still. And granted, IF Wolf really does contribute to improving Bolse's time, then Wolf should appear there. However, we won't know until Psonar tests this (which I'm assuming will happen tonight or at the latest tomorrow, considering his exceptional diligence).

Psonar

Edit history:

Psonar: 2006-09-15 07:15:27 am

2006-09-15 07:15:11 am

Long live SF64!

Hmm, you've baffled me with your mixture of 1st and 3rd person... Though talking about me and not to me would be more inviting if someone else wanted to join in.... <empty silence>

Anyways everyone loves more videos right! Well, these aren't much, just updates really...

1. Corneria v.3
2. Meteo v.1

These should closely emulate what I'm actually doing for these levels...except the mistakes of course! I'll have none of that...that's entirely due to the poor video quality, or your visual acuity...yeah...

Thanks for the confidence Insipid... I'm still working on the new route options. I just took on Star Wolf again, and easily dipatched 2 at the outset! One was in fact Andrew, but the other was Pigma. Then I lost a wing, and nearly died, had only 3 bombs which were quickly spent and just as I thought I might survive and at least finish the level, "Ah man I'm gonna have to back off!"... What's up with that! My main man Falco the Lombardi lets me down! Oh well...restart...hmm, maybe CO-ME-KA-SX-TI this time...

Oh I did record the above drama and preceeding that was a record completion of Katina and a darned good Solar (no bombs used, 109 Grin

). So those may go up after a bit.

Thanks for staying tuned in ... and don't touch that dial! (. . . long day)

Hmm, you've baffled me with your mixture of 1st and 3rd person... Though talking about me and not to me would be more inviting if someone else wanted to join in.... <empty silence>

Anyways everyone loves more videos right! Well, these aren't much, just updates really...

1. [url=http://www.archive.org/download/StarFox64SpeedRun100SSPractice/SF64_speedrun_CO.practice3.wmv]Corneria v.3[/url]
2. [url=http://ia301313.us.archive.org/1/items/StarFox64SpeedRun100SSPractice/SF64_speedrun_ME.practice1.wmv]Meteo v.1[/url]

These should closely emulate what I'm actually doing for these levels...except the mistakes of course! I'll have none of that...that's entirely due to the poor video quality, or your visual acuity...yeah...

Thanks for the confidence Insipid... I'm still working on the new route options.  I just took on Star Wolf again, and easily dipatched 2 at the outset!  One was in fact Andrew, but the other was Pigma.  Then I lost a wing, and nearly died, had only 3 bombs which were quickly spent and just as I thought I might survive and at least finish the level, "Ah man I'm gonna have to back off!"... What's up with that! My main man Falco [i]the[/i] Lombardi lets me down!  Oh well...restart...hmm, maybe CO-ME-KA-SX-TI this time...

Oh I did record the above drama and preceeding that was a record completion of Katina and a darned good Solar (no bombs used, 109  ;D ).  So those may go up after a bit.

Thanks for staying tuned in ... and don't touch that dial! (. . . long day)

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-09-15 08:33:26 am

2006-09-15 08:11:02 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Haha, sorry; I edited it. I typed the last post in between exercising, eating, and homework, so my tenses and viewpoints were conflated. You should have seen the non sequitur tangent I started regarding Xenosaga III (don't ask; I have no recollection how I made any correlation between the two games).

Btw, while I'm completely aware this is probably an asinine question, would there be any benefit whatsoever to jumping from Sector X to Sector Z? I can't think of any utility to be gained from such an arrangement, but everything is worth consideration. If you did this, you'd then have the burden of fitting Titania and Bolse in somewhere. Hmmm.

I guess if one was experiencing a fit of ennui and actually wanted to try this, they could have the following route:

Co-SY-Aq-Zo-MB-Bo-(Restart)
Co-Me-Ka-So-(Restart)
Co-Me-Fo-SX-SZ-A6-V2
Error!?

Nevermind, you cannot reach Titania unless you come directly from Sector X. Well, the idea was a waste of time, anyway... why shouldn't the post about it, be? Roll Eyes

Btw, I'll update the first post with the new videos. Wink

EDIT: Are you having difficulty killing the butterflies without bombs..? For whatever reason, I became particularly good at this in my no damage run of eons past. I found waiting for them to dart either left or right and then slaughtering the trigger was easiest. Of course, when you're confronted by more than one, simultaneously, there's little choice.

Haha, sorry; I edited it.  I typed the last post in between exercising, eating, and homework, so my tenses and viewpoints were conflated.  You should have seen the non sequitur tangent I started regarding Xenosaga III (don't ask; I have no recollection how I made any correlation between the two games).

Btw, while I'm completely aware this is probably an asinine question, would there be [i]any benefit whatsoever[/i] to jumping from Sector X to Sector Z?  I can't think of any utility to be gained from such an arrangement, but everything is worth consideration.  If you did this, you'd then have the burden of fitting Titania and Bolse in somewhere.  Hmmm.

I guess if one was experiencing a fit of ennui and actually wanted to try this, they could have the following route:

Co-SY-Aq-Zo-MB-Bo-(Restart)
Co-Me-Ka-So-(Restart)
Co-Me-Fo-SX-SZ-A6-V2   
[b]Error!?[/b]

Nevermind, you cannot reach Titania unless you come directly from Sector X. Well, the idea was a waste of time, anyway... why shouldn't the post about it, be?   ::)

Btw, I'll update the first post with the new videos.   ;)

EDIT:  Are you having difficulty killing the butterflies without bombs..?  For whatever reason, I became particularly good at this in my no damage run of eons past.  I found waiting for them to dart either left or right and [i]then[/i] slaughtering the trigger was easiest.  Of course, when you're confronted by more than one, simultaneously, there's little choice.

Psonar

2006-09-15 08:41:06 pm

Long live SF64!

New Video Up!

This video covers a run through KA-SO-MB-BO that I described earlier. Falco dies in BO and I quit there, but this gives a picture of that route so you can see my difficulty on BO. I did really well in KA, SO and MB, so it's worth it to see those.

KA-SO-MB-BO Practice Video

[hr]
[quote]

Quote:

Nevermind, you cannot reach Titania unless you come directly from Sector X.

Yep, SX must got to Titania, but starting at the 6th level of each route we have 3 options:

Option 1:
TI - BO
MB
SZ - A6 - VE

Option 2:
TI
MB - BO
SZ - A6 - VE

Option 3:
TI - BO
MB - A6 - VE
SZ

That officially exhausts our possibilities by looking at those 7th level options. To recap all route options:

1. We have ME and SY interchangeable to go to KA.
2. KA and FO are interchangeable with regard to SO and SX.
3. BO may be approached from MB or TI
4. If BO is approached from TI, A6 may be approached from MB or SZ.

That should be the final word on our options! ...I think Huh?

Quote:

Btw, I'll update the first post with the new videos. Wink

Awesome. You're the man Insipid.

Quote:

Are you having difficulty killing the butterflies without bombs..? For whatever reason, I became particularly good at this in my no damage run of eons past. I found waiting for them to dart either left or right and then slaughtering the trigger was easiest. Of course, when you're confronted by more than one, simultaneously, there's little choice.

For me Butterflies are a collision threat as I'm usually in their plane and passing them, and there's not time to shoot without risking collision. There are 4 butterfly locations in the game:

1. ME before Continue
2. SX before Continue
3. SX before Boss
4. A6 before continue

Here's how I handle them:

1. 2 bombs, as I have plenty to spare and will still have 9 in the end
2. I can out-boost him and evade when he attacks me from behind
3. Doesn't apply because I take the warp!
4. I shoot when there's 1 and bomb when there are 2, they flutter at a greater distance so I can shoot at times.

[hr]
I'm wondering if route improvements can bring the optimal time below 1:25...just thought I'd pose the question since I've been thinking about it...I think the previous estimate was 1:25:50 or something and we've saved 20 seconds or so in SX, plus I've knocked some time off of FO (the 7 seconds I miscalculated...). Beyond that is it just up to playing the all range mode stuff faster? VE Star Wolf, final Andross, BO, KA, etc.

New Video Up!

This video covers a run through KA-SO-MB-BO that I described earlier.  Falco dies in BO and I quit there, but this gives a picture of that route so you can see my difficulty on BO.  I did really well in KA, SO and MB, so it's worth it to see those.

[url=http://www.archive.org/download/StarFox64SpeedRun100SSPractice/SF64_speedrun.practice_KA-SO-MB-BO.wmv]KA-SO-MB-BO Practice Video[/url]

[hr]
[quote]

[quote]Nevermind, you cannot reach Titania unless you come directly from Sector X.[/quote]

Yep, SX must got to Titania, but starting at the 6th level of each route we have [b]3 options[/b]:

[b]Option 1:[/b]
TI - BO
MB
SZ - A6 - VE

[b]Option 2:[/b]
TI
MB - BO
SZ - A6 - VE

[b]Option 3:[/b]
TI - BO
MB - A6 - VE
SZ

That officially exhausts our possibilities by looking at those 7th level options.  To recap all route options:

1. We have ME and SY interchangeable to go to KA.
2. KA and FO are interchangeable with regard to SO and SX.
3. BO may be approached from MB or TI
4. [i]If[/i] BO is approached from TI, A6 may be approached from MB or SZ.

That should be the final word on our options!   ...I think ???

[quote]Btw, I'll update the first post with the new videos.   ;)[/quote]

Awesome.  You're the man Insipid.

[quote]Are you having difficulty killing the butterflies without bombs..?  For whatever reason, I became particularly good at this in my no damage run of eons past.  I found waiting for them to dart either left or right and [i]then[/i] slaughtering the trigger was easiest.  Of course, when you're confronted by more than one, simultaneously, there's little choice.  [/quote]

For me [b]Butterflies[/b] are a collision threat as I'm usually in their plane and passing them, and there's not time to shoot without risking collision.  There are 4 butterfly locations in the game:

1. ME before Continue
2. SX before Continue
3. SX before Boss
4. A6 before continue

Here's how I handle them:

1. 2 bombs, as I have plenty to spare and will still have 9 in the end
2. I can out-boost him and evade when he attacks me from behind
3. Doesn't apply because I take the warp!
4. I shoot when there's 1 and bomb when there are 2, they flutter at a greater distance so I can shoot at times.

[hr]
I'm wondering if route improvements can bring the optimal time below 1:25...just thought I'd pose the question since I've been thinking about it...I think the previous estimate was 1:25:50 or something and we've saved 20 seconds or so in SX, plus I've knocked some time off of FO (the 7 seconds I miscalculated...).  Beyond that is it just up to playing the all range mode stuff faster?  VE Star Wolf, final Andross, BO, KA, etc.

SMK

2006-09-15 09:07:44 pm

I'm sorry about not posting here, I've been busy looking into my own runs of insanity (ToS ng solo, and ToS ng multiplayer). I'm just not sure if I'll have anything productive to add to the disccussion. Your videos are looking awesome, and a bit cleaned up from before too. Good job on beating the minimal and Redline routes too; I guess its kinda funny because there's never really not too much to gain in SF64 speed.

Psonar

2006-09-15 10:13:27 pm

Long live SF64!

Hey, it's all good man - I don't want to keep you from your runs, but I am glad to see your post! Thanks for the support! You don't have to contribute anything dude, just knowing that you like the game and that you might download the run eventually is encouragement enough.

As far as beating the other runs, it's all about analyzing it to find the lost time and knowing how to push the game to the max - the same as for any other game, I suppose. I'm trying to find what the most optimal time would be (the sum of all my best level times) and then get as close as possible to that on a single segment.

If people don't think this game is good for speedrunning they are way wrong. TSA's first joke run took over minutes and had no deaths. It suffered from slow completions, poor flying, and a bad route (CO-ME-FO-SX-SZ-A6-VE). Then his next run was much cleaner taking a very good (likely the best) route and shaved 5 minutes or something from his time. Then I came in and fixed everything he did poorly and did it better. My run still isn't perfect though. I beat him by 1:48 and I think I'm within 30 seconds of the absolute fastest time.

The minimal runs however are pretty boring overall compared to this 100% SS run. Star Fox 64 was meant to be a shoot 'em up action packed flying 3D branching path adventure, and this speedrun is actually trying to do the game like it was meant to be done. It's really not an easy run to do perfectly, and there's a lot more ways to lose or gain time than what I originally thought. When the criteria is getting a certain score as fast as possible, there are infinite ways to go about it, and trying to do such a thing perfectly is mind blowing. Plus there's bomb strategy, keep wingmates alive and darn freaking colission avoidance....do you know how hard it is to boost through the entire game, medal every level, and not hit anything? The game wasn't made to be boosted through and avoiding every possible collision is an art at times.

I'm hoping this run will do Star Fox 64 justice and be a significant speedrunning accompishment that people will enjoy and appreciate. Ok, ok I'll stop rambling now...

I don't know what kind of progress I'll make over the weekend, but I'll see what happens. I'll post probably once late at night each night. Thanks for the support to all who read this...2000 views is crazy to me! Feel free to drop a post anytime to show your support, whether you want to contribute or ask a question or whatever!

Hey, it's all good man - I don't want to keep you from your runs, but I am glad to see your post!  Thanks for the support!  You don't have to contribute anything dude, just knowing that you like the game and that you might download the run eventually is encouragement enough.

As far as beating the other runs, it's all about analyzing it to find the lost time and knowing how to push the game to the max - the same as for any other game, I suppose.  I'm trying to find what the most optimal time would be (the sum of all my best level times) and then get as close as possible to that on a single segment.

If people don't think this game is good for speedrunning they are way wrong.  TSA's first joke run took over minutes and had no deaths.  It suffered from slow completions, poor flying, and a bad route (CO-ME-FO-SX-SZ-A6-VE).  Then his next run was much cleaner taking a very good (likely the best) route and shaved 5 minutes or something from his time.  Then I came in and fixed everything he did poorly and did it better.  My run still isn't perfect though.  I beat him by 1:48 and I think I'm within 30 seconds of the absolute fastest time.

The minimal runs however are pretty boring overall compared to this 100% SS run.  Star Fox 64 was meant to be a shoot 'em up action packed flying 3D branching path adventure, and this speedrun is actually trying to [i]do[/i] the game like it was meant to be done. It's really not an easy run to do perfectly, and there's a lot more ways to lose or gain time than what I originally thought.  When the criteria is getting a certain score as fast as possible, there are infinite ways to go about it, and trying to do such a thing perfectly is mind blowing.  Plus there's bomb strategy, keep wingmates alive and darn freaking colission avoidance....do you know how hard it is to boost through the entire game, medal every level, and not hit anything?  The game wasn't made to be boosted through and avoiding every possible collision is an art at times.

I'm hoping this run will do Star Fox 64 justice and be a significant speedrunning accompishment that people will enjoy and appreciate.  Ok, ok I'll stop rambling now...

I don't know what kind of progress I'll make over the weekend, but I'll see what happens.  I'll post probably once late at night each night.  Thanks for the support to all who read this...2000 views is crazy to me!  Feel free to drop a post anytime to show your support, whether you want to contribute or ask a question or whatever!

MatrixTN

2006-09-15 10:56:07 pm

You got a deletion wish?

Fire in the hole!

Psonar

Edit history:

Psonar: 2006-09-17 05:02:46 am

2006-09-16 08:38:50 am

Long live SF64!

Thanks Matrix! Not sure what that means... I guess meaning this run is in the hole ready to be fired? As in, go for it, it's in the bag baby? Assuming you meant something like that... uh ... thanks for the support!

I'll go ahead and let others know, MatrixTN mentioned in a pm about possibly creating a music video out of parts of my completed run! Anyway, thanks for following the run Matrix.

I've been tied up all day, but now I'm going to go attempt to record something. Hopefully some more videos will go up by the end of the weekend!

EDIT: Don't forget to check out the new KA-SO-MB-BO video! It's posted a few posts up...

Edit 2 (9/16 11pm): I just realized the KA-SO-MB-BO video has like 20 minutes of the last frame, making it over 40 minutes long...don't know what happened...I cut off the useless part at the end and will re-post the correct length video shortly...

Psonar

Edit history:

Psonar: 2006-09-17 09:33:44 am

2006-09-17 09:31:37 am

Long live SF64!

YAY for Progress!

I did 2 small runs tonight, both recorded, both totally candid, and they went great! Here's my routes:

Run 1: CO-ME-FO-SO-MB-BO
Run 2: CO-ME-KA-SX-TI

Run 1 Highlights:
This run came in around 24:45 (taking out the intro time). Corneria and Meteo went off fine to my memory, FO was a bit of a fluke because I was facing the wrong way when Star Wolf arrived, but I can't have lost more than 15 or maybe 30 seconds. Solar was just awesome sweetness with 0 mistakes, score: 110. Then Macbeth went without a hitch (except those on the train...hitches...trai-....nevermind). Bolse went as well as I'd expect. Like an idiot I collided with a pole just after the cutscene, but I had 9 bombs Grin

which I didn't even get to use all of, and it showed a lot of control with the last core spot...which I waited until I had the requisit 139 before bombing. Overall, an imperfect, but solid run. 24:00 would be perfect or at least insane, and I got 24:45.

Run 2 Highlights:
This run had it's golden moments and it's uhm...tarnished moments. The total time was at 24:30. Katina was the fastest ever with new tactics used. I switched the view to zoomed out and had better hatch destruction and point planning. I destroy the last hatch around 125, then took 30 seconds of core time to destroy up to the needed 145 or so before bombing the core. Final score was a comfortable 154 I think. The time was great, just under 5 minutes I believe (haven't re-timed yet), which is a 30 second improvement over my last complete run. Next came Sector X where I do great except for an accidental (object hit me from behind?) collision near the checkpoint. I completed the last half of the warp and the last hits for the medal with zero health! It's insane! I should've died - but my time should've been alright, I had single lasers on the gates which probably cost me 5 seconds. Then I went to Titania and whooped up! This was the best I can hope for on Titania. Some luck drives the boss, and I had about 10 seconds of bad luck, but other than that it was great! This bit done perfectly might also come in around 24:00.

[hr]
The total for these two runs was 49:15!!! That means these two plus a 40:44 redline would do it! The redline portion of my last full run was about 38:15 which would make for a total time of 1:27:30, and that redline was improveable by a minute at least! That would allow 3:30 of buffer, or for ownage!

I'm working on getting videos up and deleting obsolete ones (like CO v.2, SO v.1), so be ready for these two runs to go up soon! With this path, Solar and Bolse are easier when followed by Fortuna, and Sector X and Titania don't require as much making them good followers to Katina. Bolse not being after Titania also allows for mistakes in Sector X and more liberal bomb usage in Titania.

I'm liking the route, so let me know what you think of the route and of the videos. A 1:30:00 is in sight, and a 1:26:XX should be possible! Videos tomorrow!

[center][b]YAY for Progress![/b][/center]

I did 2 small runs tonight, both recorded, both totally candid, and they went [i]great[/i]!  Here's my routes:

Run 1: CO-ME-FO-SO-MB-BO
Run 2: CO-ME-KA-SX-TI

[b]Run 1 Highlights:[/b]
This run came in around [b]24:45[/b] (taking out the intro time).  Corneria and Meteo went off fine to my memory, FO was a bit of a fluke because I was facing the wrong way when Star Wolf arrived, but I can't have lost more than 15 or [i]maybe[/i] 30 seconds.  Solar was just awesome sweetness with 0 mistakes, score: 110.  Then Macbeth went without a hitch (except those on the train...[i]hitches[/i]...[i]trai[/i]-....nevermind).  Bolse went as well as I'd expect.  Like an idiot I collided with a pole just after the cutscene, but I had 9 bombs ;D which I didn't even get to use all of, and it showed a lot of control with the last core spot...which I waited until I had the requisit 139 before bombing.  Overall, an imperfect, but solid run.  24:00 would be perfect or at least insane, and I got 24:45.

[b]Run 2 Highlights[/b]:
This run had it's golden moments and it's uhm...tarnished moments.  The total time was at [b]24:30[/b].  Katina was the fastest ever with new tactics used.  I switched the view to zoomed out and had better hatch destruction and point planning.  I destroy the last hatch around 125, then took 30 seconds of core time to destroy up to the needed 145 or so before bombing the core.  Final score was a comfortable 154 I think.  The time was great, just under 5 minutes I believe (haven't re-timed yet), which is a 30 second improvement over my last complete run.  Next came Sector X where I do great except for an accidental (object hit me from behind?) collision near the checkpoint.  I completed the last half of the warp and the last hits for the medal with zero health!  It's insane!  I should've died - but my time should've been alright, I had single lasers on the gates which probably cost me 5 seconds.  Then I went to Titania and whooped up!  This was the best I can hope for on Titania.  Some luck drives the boss, and I had about 10 seconds of bad luck, but other than that it was great!  This bit done perfectly might also come in around 24:00.

[hr]
The total for these two runs was 49:15!!!  That means these two plus a 40:44 redline would do it!  The redline portion of my last full run was about 38:15 which would make for a total time of 1:27:30, and that redline was improveable by a minute at least!  That would allow 3:30 of buffer, or for ownage!

I'm working on getting videos up and deleting obsolete ones (like CO v.2, SO v.1), so be ready for these two runs to go up soon!  With this path, Solar and Bolse are easier when followed by Fortuna, and Sector X and Titania don't require as much making them good followers to Katina.  Bolse not being after Titania also allows for mistakes in Sector X and more liberal bomb usage in Titania.

I'm liking the route, so let me know what you think of the route and of the videos.  A 1:30:00 is in sight, and a 1:26:XX should be possible!  Videos tomorrow!

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-09-17 12:03:54 pm

2006-09-17 11:52:07 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

First post edited like a government audit report. Oh yeah. That's a burn. Smiley

Whoa; those are some auspicious times you have there, friend. So, did you ever test the difference between Bolse regular and Bolse to the max?........... That is, Bolse with Wolf? I know I might seem somewhat pedantic about this, but I just want to make sure the level is genuinely shorter with the additional Star Wolf points than without. Albeit, you seem to be enjoying the liberties the absence of the level in the blue line route grants you, so maybe it doesn't matter, but I'm just hesitant to endorse the route until I've seen some empirical evidence of the supposed advantage. Call me old fashioned. Wink

(Of course, do as you want. This is completely your run; I'm just voicing my overly-insistent-at-times opinion.)

You know, I'm glad you tried the long range camera; I was going to mention it about Venom 2, but I wasn't sure if it'd detriment or supplement your run.