PSO ep1

2007-10-30 01:41:25 pm

If you're fine with staying in the Start menu, it works about as well as switching to a non-targeting R-config (or, better yet, putting all your targeting in the R-config so you don't get slowed down by surprise traps). When I played as a Force, I used to just use the Start menu.

It's about the most well-known trick in PSO tbh, been going around since early '01; we figured if you were doing all this cool manipulation and stuff, you'd definitely know that. >_>

I just like using it to deliberately miss crates tho <_<

D A P

Edit history:

D A P: 2007-10-30 08:50:33 pm

2007-10-30 07:25:27 pm

I just remembered a[-nother] simple trick that, if it works the same for any character, would save a Force a good few minutes. *Testing*
Tested with Force: Yes, it seems that casting spells withOUT a weapon equipped IS slightly faster.
Is there a reason you would need a weapon with a Force?

I guess this should be rule #1 for helping a runner: "never assume the runner knows any tricks, no matter how obvious".

dexter

2007-10-30 10:03:38 pm

I need a wand at the beginning of ruins to be able to cast rafoie but apart from that I don't need a weapon. I was always under the impression that casting without a weapon is slightly slower but I never timed it.

Alex Dobberstein

2007-10-30 11:52:23 pm

Quote:

A couple of tips if you ever try another run:

You can run past enemies and bombs by either using a command set without a targeting command (which you don't have since both your command sets have attack techs) or using the Start menu. Since you're not targeting anything, you'll run straight through bombs and can in most cases disregard them (very easy way to get through bomb corridors), and you can slip past enemies in tight spaces.

You could also use this in Mines 2 to reach an airborne Dubchic life thingy and hit it with Foie.

Pofuilly Slimes usually surface if, when they end their slide, you're right next to them but not touching the main area of slime. It's possible to have it surface after one slide consistently once you reach them.

You can also do this by bringing up the chat menu (Y button). This way you dont have to change your R menus around.

JoChi

Edit history:

JoChi: 2008-08-08 02:35:20 pm

2007-10-31 05:08:30 am

For male caster, it's faster to cast unarmed/barehand.
For female caster except FoMarl, it's faster to cast armed.
For FoMarl, total time (including delay after casting) is the same for armed or unarmed, but unarmed comes out faster than armed.

Note that this is based on ver.2 data, it might not be accurate for GC.

For the most up-to-date data, you might want to ask people in a challenge mode forum (in pso-world).
There is a sub-culture of c-mode known as "time attack (TA)", where the goal is to finish c-mode as fast as possible, something we are trying to emulate in single player mode. If you haven't notice, a lot of my advice came from playing challenge mode.

But I think I saw somewhere that FoNl cast fastest with cane...

Also, you can use the quick menu to quickly run thru traps and enemies, assuming you are not highlighting an offensive tech in quick menu.

And while we are at it, the fastest way to cast tech is to use quick menu. Select and press A on the desired tech in quick menu while you are still finishing your previous action. Then as soon as your previous action is done, the quick menu will close and you will begin casting the tech.

There's also a trick that let you cast rafoie with the lock-on range of zonde or grants using quick menu (at least true in ver.2). Rearrange the spell order in quick menu so zonde is either one above or one below rafoie. First highlight zonde (make sure you have lock-on to the desired enemy), then quickly go to rafoie and press A. Done right, the rafoie should still come out even though you are clearly out of range. This also work with zalure and jellen, but you won't be using those...
EDIT: apparently they removed this glitch in GC ver. Thanks goes to dexter for confirming.

For male caster, it's faster to cast unarmed/barehand.  
For female caster except FoMarl, it's faster to cast armed.  
For FoMarl, total time (including delay after casting) is the same for armed or unarmed, but unarmed comes out faster than armed.

[b]Note that this is based on ver.2 data, it might not be accurate for GC.  [/b]

For the most up-to-date data, you might want to ask people in a challenge mode forum (in pso-world).  
There is a sub-culture of c-mode known as "time attack (TA)", where the goal is to finish c-mode as fast as possible, something we are trying to emulate in single player mode.  If you haven't notice, a lot of my advice came from playing challenge mode.

But I think I saw somewhere that FoNl cast fastest with cane...

Also, you can use the quick menu to quickly run thru traps and enemies, assuming you are not highlighting an offensive tech in quick menu.

And while we are at it, the fastest way to cast tech is to use quick menu.  Select and press A on the desired tech in quick menu while you are still finishing your previous action.  Then as soon as your previous action is done, the quick menu will close and you will begin casting the tech.

There's also a trick that let you cast rafoie with the lock-on range of zonde or grants using quick menu (at least true in ver.2).  Rearrange the spell order in quick menu so zonde is either one above or one below rafoie.  First highlight zonde (make sure you have lock-on to the desired enemy), then quickly go to rafoie and press A.  Done right, the rafoie should still come out even though you are clearly out of range.  This also work with zalure and jellen, but you won't be using those... 
EDIT: apparently they removed this glitch in GC ver.  Thanks goes to dexter for confirming.

D A P

2007-10-31 06:04:45 am

Quote:

For male caster, it's faster to cast unarmed/barehand.
For female caster ... ... still works in gc)

..and why did you hide this information until now? I sure hope you PMed dexter about this stuff before/during his run.

nate

2007-10-31 06:11:46 am

without seeing the run until after it's done, people tend to assume things are known. i know i did ... absolutely no insult to anyone whatsoever, it's more of a subconscious thing. you tend to imagine yourself playing if you don't watch a video.

JoChi

Edit history:

JoChi: 2007-11-02 07:26:52 pm

2007-10-31 07:09:52 am

Quote:

..and why did you hide this information until now? I sure hope you PMed dexter about this stuff before/during his run.

1) I wasn't sure if it still applies for GC, especially since I read somewhere that FoNl cast fastest with cane (as oppose to other weapon), which wasn't the case in ver2. So I was confused with which source should I believe, reliable but possibly out-dated, or up-to-date but not so reliable.

2) FoNl cast fastest when armed, which most player will instinctively do. And all previous video dexter uploaded has shown him using a weapon. So I didn't think I need to mention that bit.

3) Casting thru quick menu doesn't help that much, as far as I know.

4) I didn't realize dexter will use rafoei until recently, and the whole thing just escape my mind. And I am not sure how helpful the trick will be.

It's not like I am purposely withholding information. I just assume he knew/the info is useless. Cry

Also, barta hits aerial enemy like nano dragon, even though it looks like it only craw on the ground. ~~Not sure if it will hit the dragon boss when it's flying though...~~
EDIT: it doesn't. Thanks goes to Amitwin for confirming.

EDIT:
also, while barta is not a great damage dealer against gillchic, its multi-target property let you knockdown a lot of them at once.

[quote]
..and why did you hide this information until now?  I sure hope you PMed dexter about this stuff before/during his run.[/quote]

1) I wasn't sure if it still applies for GC, especially since I read somewhere that FoNl cast fastest with cane (as oppose to other weapon), which wasn't the case in ver2.  So I was confused with which source should I believe, reliable but possibly out-dated, or up-to-date but not so reliable.

2) FoNl cast fastest when armed, which most player will instinctively do.  And all previous video dexter uploaded has shown him using a weapon.  So I didn't think I need to mention that bit.

3) Casting thru quick menu doesn't help that much, as far as I know.

4) I didn't realize dexter will use rafoei until recently, and the whole thing just escape my mind.  And I am not sure how helpful the trick will be.

It's not like I am purposely withholding information.  I just assume he knew/the info is useless.   :'(

Also, barta hits aerial enemy like nano dragon, even though it looks like it only craw on the ground.  [s]Not sure if it will hit the dragon boss when it's flying though...[/s]
EDIT: it doesn't.  Thanks goes to Amitwin for confirming.

EDIT:
also, while barta is not a great damage dealer against gillchic, its multi-target property let you knockdown a lot of them at once.

Amitwin

Edit history:

Amitwin: 2007-11-02 01:14:28 am

2007-11-02 01:11:04 am

Give me a Guld.

Quote:

Also, barta hits aerial enemy like nano dragon, even though it looks like it only craw on the ground. Not sure if it will hit the dragon boss when it's flying though...

Doesn't work with the dragon boss, though it does work with some smaller flying enemies.(Most notably nano dragons, as you mentioned)

Quote:

without seeing the run until after it's done, people tend to assume things are known.

And I very much agree with this, people often assume some little things are done/known automatically because its instinctive to their playing style. I remember one example when I watched the Diablo II Assassin run; (marshmallow?) didn't know you could shift click potions to automatically put them in your belt, and everyone would have assumed it "common knowledge"

dexter

Edit history:

dexter: 2007-11-02 04:19:24 pm

2007-11-02 04:05:46 pm

I timed the casting speed with a cane, a wand, and unarmed. While casting with a cane is a few frames faster than casting unarmed using a wand seems to be another frame faster than using a cane. So it seems that this time everything was right Smiley

The rafoie trick doesn't seem to work in the gc version (if this is how it is supposed to work):

http://www.wongr.net/dexter/pso/rafoie-MQ.mp4

I didn't know that you can rearrange spells in the quick menu. For things like this it would really have helped if my (used) copy of the game had come with a manual. I never even played pso1 online and considering that the GC servers are shut down (AFAIK) this probably won't happen Sad

Quote:

also, while barta is not a great damage dealer against gillchic, its multi-target property let you knockdown a lot of them at once.

Even with zonde 1 (when I have to hit them three times) I don't have to run around much to evade their attacks and barta does very little damage. Unless I can barta - zonde - zonde them with a barta upgrade this probably doesn't help. Might be useful against dubchics though.

BTW, did you have time to work on your HUcast run?

EDIT: about the zero target glitch: Using the quick menu seems to be the best way (if the R-menu has attacks) since you can still use L to recenter the camera. This doesn't work with the start or chat menus.

I timed the casting speed with a cane, a wand, and unarmed. While casting with a cane is a few frames faster than casting unarmed using a wand seems to be another frame faster than using a cane. So it seems that this time everything was right :)

The rafoie trick doesn't seem to work in the gc version (if this is how it is supposed to work):

http://www.wongr.net/dexter/pso/rafoie-MQ.mp4

I didn't know that you can rearrange spells in the quick menu. For things like this it would really have helped if my (used) copy of the game had come with a manual. I never even played pso1 online and considering that the GC servers are shut down (AFAIK) this probably won't happen :(

[quote]also, while barta is not a great damage dealer against gillchic, its multi-target property let you knockdown a lot of them at once.[/quote]

Even with zonde 1 (when I have to hit them three times) I don't have to run around much to evade their attacks and barta does very little damage. Unless I can barta - zonde - zonde them with a barta upgrade this probably doesn't help. Might be useful against dubchics though.

BTW, did you have time to work on your HUcast run?

EDIT: about the zero target glitch: Using the quick menu seems to be the best way (if the R-menu has attacks) since you can still use L to recenter the camera. This doesn't work with the start or chat menus.

JoChi

Edit history:

JoChi: 2007-11-02 08:13:48 pm

2007-11-02 07:20:07 pm

Quote:

The rafoie trick doesn't seem to work in the gc version (if this is how it is supposed to work):

http://www.wongr.net/dexter/pso/rafoie-MQ.mp4

hmm... looks like you did the trick correctly. Try pressing down and A in quicker succession (almost at the same time), see if that makes any difference.

Otherwise they must have removed the glitch Sad

. Too bad, it would look cool to include it in your run.

Quote:

BTW, did you have time to work on your HUcast run?

I had a few test run here and there, but nothing major yet. The critical hit done by the enemy is frustrating me to no end Sad

bmn

2007-11-02 09:30:00 pm

If the rafoie trick is the same as the reverser trick (target ally with resta, cast reverser, ally regains all TP), then it was fixed in v2.

JoChi

Edit history:

JoChi: 2007-11-02 09:52:35 pm

2007-11-02 09:51:16 pm

Quote:

If the rafoie trick is the same as the reverser trick (target ally with resta, cast reverser, ally regains all TP), then it was fixed in v2.

No, that's not it. Rafoie trick takes advantage of the quick menu (glitch?), which wasn't there in v1. If anything, this should be a v2 exclusive trick.

I wish I have a decent force to test this trick, but I don't.
(Maybe i'll just start one now and spend a few hours to get her up to that point Tongue

)

bmn

Edit history:

bmn: 2007-11-02 11:09:02 pm

2007-11-02 11:03:35 pm

I think it'll be the same thing regardless, just that the Rafoie trick isn't possible using the Techs menu in the Start menu (sorry, didn't mention that bit ;p) since it's in a different tech category. Reverser and Resta are right next to each other in the Support category which is why the Reverser trick is possible in v1.

But, yeah, if it relies on the quick cast menu then it'll be possible in v2. I remember the timing being very difficult though for Reverser. Has to be practically the same moment. I didn't actually test in v2, but it didn't work in PSO PC which is half v1, half v2, so...

dexter

2007-11-03 12:21:41 am

I tried it again. The quick menu bar became green only one frame after moving to rafoie but it still doesn't work.

In a normal mode run there wouldn't be many places where this glitch could be used (the range of a low level zonde spell is not much bigger than rafoie) but if anyone would ever make a new game + run on ultimate this could be very useful.

JoChi

Edit history:

JoChi: 2007-11-09 11:52:46 pm

2007-11-09 11:32:49 pm

A little update on my HuCast run while we wait for dexter's run to be posted...

Ruin test run is going "smoothly" so far. But the best time for ruin is estimated to be around 1 hour, and that's probably a greatly exaggerated estimate (more likely to be 1:10). I haven't time all of the map yet, and I can further optimize my trap usage. But I really don't see how I will get ruin any faster than 1 hour. Maybe 5x minutes, but that's about it.

So if anyone has any combat tip for hunter, go ahead and post them. Doesn't matter how obvious it might be. Although obviously you don't need to mention the no-lock-on trick anymore...

While I am at it, might as well mention how I am using my trap.

Fire trap: use on large group of claw or dimenian. It might also be possible to use on death gunner (leader of gunner), while it's invincible, to instantly force all other into stun.

Confuse trap: large group of enemy (5-6 dimenian-type group, any group containing delsaber and/or chaos bringer, multiple-delsaber-group). It seems like dark/death gunner stay confuse for a lot longer than other enemy. Definitely worth investigating.

Ice trap: single belra and delsaber, and large group of enemy when confuse trap is used up.

Incidentally, I am very certain there's no need to use death-abuse on DF now. Even when I am being slightly wastefully with my mates, healing when I am just 100/150, I still have more than enough mate to last me through the whole boss battle. In fact, so far I only needed my 10 monomates and 10 dimates.

A little update on my HuCast run while we wait for dexter's run to be posted...

Ruin test run is going "smoothly" so far.  But the best time for ruin is estimated to be around 1 hour, and that's probably a greatly exaggerated estimate (more likely to be 1:10).  I haven't time all of the map yet, and I can further optimize my trap usage.  But I really don't see how I will get ruin any faster than 1 hour.  Maybe 5x minutes, but that's about it.

So if anyone has any combat tip for hunter, go ahead and post them.  Doesn't matter how obvious it might be.  Although obviously you don't need to mention the no-lock-on trick anymore...

While I am at it, might as well mention how I am using my trap.

Fire trap: use on large group of claw or dimenian.  It might also be possible to use on death gunner (leader of gunner), while it's invincible, to instantly force all other into stun.

Confuse trap: large group of enemy (5-6 dimenian-type group, any group containing delsaber and/or chaos bringer, multiple-delsaber-group).  It seems like dark/death gunner stay confuse for a lot longer than other enemy.  Definitely worth investigating.

Ice trap: single belra and delsaber, and large group of enemy when confuse trap is used up.

Incidentally, I am very certain there's no need to use death-abuse on DF now.  Even when I am being slightly wastefully with my mates, healing when I am just 100/150, I still have more than enough mate to last me through the whole boss battle.  In fact, so far I only needed my 10 monomates and 10 dimates.

nate

2007-11-10 12:42:12 am

wow, this is sounding really awesome. i look forward to seeing the final result.

Sorcerer88

2007-11-20 02:50:43 pm

I have no solution, but i admire the problem.

The run's up, yay! Can't wait to watch it, when the download's ready.

So, regarding the 60$ bounty, i'll trust the verifiers and transfer the money as soon as i can. Paypal is fine, right? Then i only need your account info, dexter. -> PM?

dexter

2007-11-20 03:47:39 pm

Please donate it to SDA. I don't trust PayPal anyway Wink

nate

2007-11-20 04:57:39 pm

lol, ironic. thanks for the donation.

Lag.Com

2007-11-20 08:22:30 pm

sda loyalist

Guess you didn't need to win after all, nate. Smiley

This is one bloody good run, by the way. I never got the chance to verify, but I can watch it now. Good stuff.

Sorcerer88

2007-11-20 08:49:06 pm

I have no solution, but i admire the problem.

Hah, how virtuuos.. Grin

alright, it's for SDA then.

i watched the run and i'd say you did a very good job. All that luck manipulation and the long segments must have been very tedious.. i didn't even know you could make these garanz rocket launcher thingies kill themselves.

i'm sure you checked that, but isn't zonde more effective than foie on these slime monsters in cave 2?

getter77

2007-11-21 12:04:10 am

100% runs=great to watch

Run was kickass...massively so. Congrats on this long wrought run...SO WORTH marathoning earlier today.

dexter

Edit history:

dexter: 2007-11-21 01:14:15 am

2007-11-21 12:48:38 am

Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it.

Foie does slightly more damage than zonde to poully slimes (38 vs. 32 with my stats). On some enemies I used less effective spells to save TP though (of course only when they took the same number of hits). Barta is obviously best since it has the lowest TP cost and can hit multiple enemies.

In caves 1 I have to use barta - barta - foie against pal sharks until I level up since my MST is too low to finish them off with 3x barta.

EDIT:

Quote:

So if anyone has any combat tip for hunter, go ahead and post them. Doesn't matter how obvious it might be. Although obviously you don't need to mention the no-lock-on trick anymore...

I am afraid I can't add much here but what weapons are you using? Probably the only trick that is even more widely known than the lock on trick is that you can use the ATK (or whatever) boost of one weapon to make the requirement for another.

When I played with a FOnewearl for fun after my run was finished at one point I needed some better version of a wand to equip a fire scepter: agni and that to equip an ice staff: dagon. With that it would have been possible to equip a storm wand: indra if I am not mistaken Wink

Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it.

Foie does slightly more damage than zonde to poully slimes (38 vs. 32 with my stats). On some enemies I used less effective spells to save TP though (of course only when they took the same number of hits). Barta is obviously best since it has the lowest TP cost and can hit multiple enemies.

In caves 1 I have to use barta - barta - foie against pal sharks until I level up since my MST is too low to finish them off with 3x barta.

EDIT:
[quote]So if anyone has any combat tip for hunter, go ahead and post them.  Doesn't matter how obvious it might be.  Although obviously you don't need to mention the no-lock-on trick anymore...[/quote]

I am afraid I can't add much here but what weapons are you using? Probably the only trick that is even more widely known than the lock on trick is that you can use the ATK (or whatever) boost of one weapon to make the requirement for another.

When I played with a FOnewearl for fun after my run was finished at one point I needed some better version of a wand to equip a fire scepter: agni and that to equip an ice staff: dagon. With that it would have been possible to equip a storm wand: indra if I am not mistaken ;)

JoChi

Edit history:

JoChi: 2007-11-21 04:05:40 am

2007-11-21 02:50:39 am

Yay, it's finally up Grin

Now I need to download it
(why doesn't this come with embedded flash Cry

)

Quote:

Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it.

Foie does slightly more damage than zonde to poully slimes (38 vs. 32 with my stats). On some enemies I used less effective spells to save TP though (of course only when they took the same number of hits). Barta is obviously best since it has the lowest TP cost and can hit multiple enemies.

Huh? I thought slime splits when they got hit w/ a foie class spell... I guess they removed that in GC ver. too?

Quote:

In caves 1 I have to use barta - barta - foie against pal sharks until I level up since my MST is too low to finish them off with 3x barta.

EDIT:

I am afraid I can't add much here but what weapons are you using? Probably the only trick that is even more widely known than the lock on trick is that you can use the ATK (or whatever) boost of one weapon to make the requirement for another.

When I played with a FOnewearl for fun after my run was finished at one point I needed some better version of a wand to equip a fire scepter: agni and that to equip an ice staff: dagon. With that it would have been possible to equip a storm wand: indra if I am not mistaken Wink

Sorry, that only works with wand. Wand is the only weapon that increase base (msn) stat, where as all other weapons give equipment stat.

Thanks though.
I have trouble equipting the newer gun, but that's about it.

EDIT:
thoughts on the run so far:
forest 1
-nice monest strategy Smiley

-wow, i didn't know the wolf in the 2nd monster room only spaw when you pass thru certain location Shocked

. (if you don't know what i am talking about, you will as soon as my run is done). And that wolf gives me so much grief too...

forest2
-... crap, i didn't know you only need to kill those two monsters to open the door at the beginning. That may explains why my map2 was slower than map1... (same for the 2nd room...)

cave1
-shark might be just another boomer for force, but it takes great skill and timing for hunter to kill it effectively Cry

-hmm... zonde on nano dragon? have you tried barta instead? Might be more effective...

cave2
-hmm, i guess they did remove "foie cause slime to split"...
or i just remember wrong.
-nice, level up just as you got no tp left Grin

boss
-actually i mean the upper corner, not the lower corner where you were standing. but i am surprise it hit that many segment Shocked

-seriously, how did barta hit so many segment from that angle Shocked

(is still boggled by the fact...)
-is it possible to hit him immidiately after the laser attack with barta? that might be worth it...
-also, it might be possible to hit him with barta while he's jumping over the raft, not sure though...

O well, i think that's enough comment from me for tonight. i still got stuff to do Tongue

Yay, it's finally up ;D
Now I need to download it
(why doesn't this come with embedded flash  :'( )

[quote]Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it.

Foie does slightly more damage than zonde to poully slimes (38 vs. 32 with my stats). On some enemies I used less effective spells to save TP though (of course only when they took the same number of hits). Barta is obviously best since it has the lowest TP cost and can hit multiple enemies.[/quote]
Huh?  I thought slime splits when they got hit w/ a foie class spell...  I guess they removed that in GC ver. too?

[quote]In caves 1 I have to use barta - barta - foie against pal sharks until I level up since my MST is too low to finish them off with 3x barta.

EDIT:

I am afraid I can't add much here but what weapons are you using? Probably the only trick that is even more widely known than the lock on trick is that you can use the ATK (or whatever) boost of one weapon to make the requirement for another.

When I played with a FOnewearl for fun after my run was finished at one point I needed some better version of a wand to equip a fire scepter: agni and that to equip an ice staff: dagon. With that it would have been possible to equip a storm wand: indra if I am not mistaken ;)
[/quote]
Sorry, that only works with wand.  Wand is the only weapon that increase base (msn) stat, where as all other weapons give equipment stat.

Thanks though.  
I have trouble equipting the newer gun, but that's about it.

EDIT:
thoughts on the run so far:
forest 1
-nice monest strategy :)
-wow, i didn't know the wolf in the 2nd monster room only spaw when you pass thru certain location :o . (if you don't know what i am talking about, you will as soon as my run is done).  And that wolf gives me so much grief too...

forest2
-... crap, i didn't know you only need to kill those two monsters to open the door at the beginning.  That may explains why my map2 was slower than map1... (same for the 2nd room...)

cave1
-shark might be just another boomer for force, but it takes great skill and timing for hunter to kill it effectively :'(
-hmm... zonde on nano dragon?  have you tried barta instead?  Might be more effective...

cave2
-hmm, i guess they did remove "foie cause slime to split"...
or i just remember wrong.
-nice, level up just as you got no tp left  ;D

boss
-actually i mean the upper corner, not the lower corner where you were standing.  but i am surprise it hit that many segment :o
-seriously, how did barta hit so many segment from that angle :o (is still boggled by the fact...)
-is it possible to hit him immidiately after the laser attack with barta?  that might be worth it...
-also, it might be possible to hit him with barta while he's jumping over the raft, not sure though...

O well, i think that's enough comment from me for tonight.  i still got stuff to do :P