PSO ep1

2008-02-06 12:48:14 pm

I did some more testing last weekend. Unfortunately I won't have time for more stuff (and the video) until end of week. Pinkal can find foie/barta/zonde 6 in ruins 1. I will have to test how much zonde 6 saves (probably not enough for an extra segment; at least zonde 5 didn't).
This also means that barta 2 is probably available in caves 1. I will have to test how much this saves but considering that the last de rol le fight lasted 13 minutes it should be worth it. Maybe it is even possible to two round him.

Quote:

i do recall messing around using it with photon drops and meseta. I don't see why it'd be at all different with 10 item stacks..

I don't see why it shouldn't work either. I will just have adjust the button sequence since there is an extra menu step when the number of items is selected.

Quote:

You do know that there was a way to take your stats higher by using it to equip stuff.

Probably not worth it. The only method I know (except duplicating materials) requires to save and load to make the stat boost of one(!) unit permanent (without having it equipped). Even if I hunt an Angel/Mind from a Nar Lily in caves (very painful) it would be very expensive since loading times count and the glitch setup would have to be done every time (including walking over to the shops for no other reason). I have not timed (good) setup times yet but one boost would cost at least 90 seconds.

Furthermore, magic damage is not increased that much by MST alone (better disks are much more important) which means that it would be pretty useless to raise MST beyond what I would need for rafoie 3 (best you can get in ruins 1 iirc).

I did some more testing last weekend. Unfortunately I won't have time for more stuff (and the video) until end of week. Pinkal can find foie/barta/zonde 6 in ruins 1. I will have to test how much zonde 6 saves (probably not enough for an extra segment; at least zonde 5 didn't).
This also means that barta 2 is probably available in caves 1. I will have to test how much this saves but considering that the last de rol le fight lasted 13 minutes it should be worth it. Maybe it is even possible to two round him.

[quote]i do recall messing around using it with photon drops and meseta. I don't see why it'd be at all different with 10 item stacks..[/quote]

I don't see why it shouldn't work either. I will just have adjust the button sequence since there is an extra menu step when the number of items is selected.

[quote]You do know that there was a way to take your stats higher by using it to equip stuff.[/quote]

Probably not worth it. The only method I know (except duplicating materials) requires to save and load to make the stat boost of one(!) unit permanent (without having it equipped). Even if I hunt an Angel/Mind from a Nar Lily in caves (very painful) it would be very expensive since loading times count and the glitch setup would have to be done every time (including walking over to the shops for no other reason). I have not timed (good) setup times yet but one boost would cost at least 90 seconds.

Furthermore, magic damage is not increased that much by MST alone (better disks are much more important) which means that it would be pretty useless to raise MST beyond what I would need for rafoie 3 (best you can get in ruins 1 iirc).

JoChi

Edit history:

JoChi: 2008-08-08 02:53:20 pm

2008-02-12 12:09:11 pm

um... no real news...

I haven't abandoned the run, but I also don't have a lot of time to work on the run either.

In fact, I think I should warned everyone right now that my run will look sloppier than Dexter's run in general, because I just don't have that much time to test run. It's also due to the fact that I am using a regular memory card, so I can't retry a segment later on. The only reason to make the run segmented is to make sure I don't go insane trying to get the right map.

The only thing worth reporting is my estimated segment time for ruins (not including end credit, since supposedly it doesn't add to the in-game timer) is currently at 54 minutes, add or drop 3 minutes. It's no where close to Dexter's 35 min.-run, but that's the best I can manage. :-(

dexter

2008-04-09 03:36:54 pm

Sorry for the delay. I started playing pso again a few days ago. Here is also the duplication glitch video I promised earlier. The first step is to do the basic glitch setup to get the bank dialog while being able to move around. If the woman in the shop is not cooperative you lose a lot of time.

The next step for fast money duplication is to get the item and bank menus in a certain state. This starts at 0:35. From 0:50 to 1:06 I duplicate money and end up in the same state so the duplication can be repeated. The next few loops are done a little faster. You have to be careful though, if you are too fast at certain steps the menu doesn't catch up.

At 1:25 I duplicate an item. This is pretty much the same, except that you cant deposit and drop at the same time since the game will freeze. The idea is to drop the item while keeping the "store room" screen open (the item is not removed from that list when it is dropped) and store it afterwards.

Stacked items are no problem either, you just have slightly to adjust the menu actions since there is an extra dialog (# of items).

http://www.wongr.net/dexter/pso/pso1-dupe-glitch.mp4

I will do a complete test run to check new strategies, determine fluid usage at each experience level and determine what becomes available in the shop at which level. Since money won't be a problem after forest it is important when difluids become available since they allow me to skip two shop visits (~1:30). On the other hand there are shop visits I am forced to do (getting gizonde before vol opt).

The basic plan looks like this:

- segment 01: character creation, shopping

- segment 02: forest
This will be pretty much like segment 03 of the old run (except picking up other boxes and defeating dragon faster. I also notices that I can ohko savage wolves with foie at level 3 but this is only reliable at close range).

- segment 03: money duplication (I expect to have around 1500 after forest), shopping, talking to mayor

- segment 04: barta 2 hunting (still have to check whether I can kill de rol le in 2.5 rounds with this)

- segment 05: caves

- segment 06: shopping, talking to the mayor. Depending on when difluids become available I might be able to telepipe out, shop, and talk after de rol le and skip this segment

- segment 07: mines. I have to raise my mag enough to be able to ue rafoie after mines. Another reason why I have to plan carefully when to shop.

- segment 08: buy rafoie(?). It would suck to waste a whole segment just for buying rafoie but it speeds up the hunting segments considerably. If I need to do only 1 or 2 hunting segments I might skip this.

- segments 09-11: hunt for HP material, barta 6, and maybe zonde 6 (depends on what I have at this stage and what is available in the shop)

- segment 12: buy 3 slot armor, Digger/HP, duplicate Digger/HPs and money / fluids.

- segment 13: ruins

One interesting idea is the duplication of difluids or trifluids. I can only store 10 difluids in the bank but it would speed up at least one shopping visit. Duplicating trifluids is interesting as well, especially if I can get one before the first duplication segment.

Sorry for the delay. I started playing pso again a few days ago. Here is also the duplication glitch video I promised earlier. The first step is to do the basic glitch setup to get the bank dialog while being able to move around. If the woman in the shop is not cooperative you lose a lot of time.

The next step for fast money duplication is to get the item and bank menus in a certain state. This starts at 0:35. From 0:50 to 1:06 I duplicate money and end up in the same state so the duplication can be repeated. The next few loops are done a little faster. You have to be careful though, if you are too fast at certain steps the menu doesn't catch up.

At 1:25 I duplicate an item. This is pretty much the same, except that you cant deposit and drop at the same time since the game will freeze. The idea is to drop the item while keeping the "store room" screen open (the item is not removed from that list when it is dropped) and store it afterwards.

Stacked items are no problem either, you just have slightly to adjust the menu actions since there is an extra dialog (# of items).

http://www.wongr.net/dexter/pso/pso1-dupe-glitch.mp4

I will do a complete test run to check new strategies, determine fluid usage at each experience level and determine what becomes available in the shop at which level. Since money won't be a problem after forest it is important when difluids become available since they allow me to skip two shop visits (~1:30). On the other hand there are shop visits I am forced to do (getting gizonde before vol opt).

The basic plan looks like this:

- segment 01: character creation, shopping

- segment 02: forest
  This will be pretty much like segment 03 of the old run (except picking up other boxes and defeating dragon faster. I also notices that I can ohko savage wolves with foie at level 3 but this is only reliable at close range).

- segment 03: money duplication (I expect to have around 1500 after forest), shopping, talking to mayor

- segment 04: barta 2 hunting (still have to check whether I can kill de rol le in 2.5 rounds with this)

- segment 05: caves

- segment 06: shopping, talking to the mayor. Depending on when difluids become available I might be able to telepipe out, shop, and talk after de rol le and skip this segment

- segment 07: mines. I have to raise my mag enough to be able to ue rafoie after mines. Another reason why I have to plan carefully when to shop.

- segment 08: buy rafoie(?). It would suck to waste a whole segment just for buying rafoie but it speeds up the hunting segments considerably. If I need to do only 1 or 2 hunting segments I might skip this.

- segments 09-11: hunt for HP material, barta 6, and maybe zonde 6 (depends on what I have at this stage and what is available in the shop)

- segment 12: buy 3 slot armor, Digger/HP, duplicate Digger/HPs and money / fluids.

- segment 13: ruins

One interesting idea is the duplication of difluids or trifluids. I can only store 10 difluids in the bank but it would speed up at least one shopping visit. Duplicating trifluids is interesting as well, especially if I can get one before the first duplication segment.

Sorcerer88

Edit history:

Sorcerer88: 2008-04-10 10:57:21 am

2008-04-09 05:39:27 pm

I have no solution, but i admire the problem.

I always wonder where you take the motivation from to do this run. You'll have lots and lots and lots of retries, both for the shopping/glitching and the actual level segments.

But of course, duplication is a very promising trick. So, good luck with the run.

EDIT: I've been looking for a pattern for vol opt 1 again, but the best i've found is some useful data ( hp etc ) about it on pso world:
http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=808

dexter

2008-04-09 10:44:17 pm

The shop lady can be a real bitch and I hope I won't have to combine the duplication glitch with shop manipulation like in segment 8 of my run but overall this is going to be much less painful (less luck manipulation in long segments). Apart from that I am not too proud of my performance in mines and together with the improvements others suggested (zero target glitch, slime tactic) this seems like a good opportunity to produce a sub 2h run.

The worst hunting segment will probably be barta 2 (few crates in the first cave rooms) but that is still nothing compared to hunting for Dragon/HP, Blue Barrier, and Amplifier of Barta with a Purplenum force. I probably wouldn't have the motivation to try that Wink

In case anyone wants to help, I am especially interested in the following facts:

- what useful stuff (difluids, trifluids, 3 slot frames, wands, anything else?) starts to appear at exactly which level (anything from 4 to 15) and with what probability?
- better / other monster tactics
- anything that might help breaking (= predicting) vol opt

The shop lady can be a real bitch and I hope I won't have to combine the duplication glitch with shop manipulation like in segment 8 of my run but overall this is going to be much less painful (less luck manipulation in long segments). Apart from that I am not too proud of my performance in mines and together with the improvements others suggested (zero target glitch, slime tactic) this seems like a good opportunity to produce a sub 2h run.

The worst hunting segment will probably be barta 2 (few crates in the first cave rooms) but that is still nothing compared to hunting for Dragon/HP, Blue Barrier, and Amplifier of Barta with a Purplenum force. I probably wouldn't have the motivation to try that ;)

In case anyone wants to help, I am especially interested in the following facts:

- what useful stuff (difluids, trifluids, 3 slot frames, wands, anything else?) starts to appear at exactly which level (anything from 4 to 15) and with what probability?
- better / other monster tactics
- anything that might help breaking (= predicting) vol opt

dexter

Edit history:

dexter: 2008-04-11 02:50:32 am

2008-04-11 02:45:53 am

I did some forest research and already found several improvements. I plan to check all rooms of all acceptable maps for avoidable monster triggers and new shortcuts (which usually mean to kill only certain monsters / groups to open doors). I also timed the crates in forest.

- in forest 1 room 2 I can save 1-2 seconds by fighting the monest from a distance and staying closer to the door. This works since it spawns only two mothmats. It is still somewhat tricky since you have to keep the monest busy all the time. When fighting from a distance zonde seems to be more reliable at keeping the monest stunlocked but you have to be very careful not to hit the rappies when they get up. I am not yet 100% sure whether this will end up in the run but it certainly looks good:

http://www.wongr.net/dexter/pso/pso1-forest1-monest.mp4

- in the next room, instead of using foie on the first boomer, it is slightly faster to immediately go for the two crates and then kill it with zonde. There is no need to turn and aim and you can stay at the right wall all the time.

- Don't kill the rappy in the room with the first teleporter in forest 2-1 and 2-2 (and the monolith in 2-1). This way you only need to kill a Gobooma, a savage wolf, a gigobooma, and the hildebear. It is a little annoying to fight the monsters with the rappy moving around but it should save time and precious TP. I still have to test whether this is enough to get through forest 2-1 (shortest map) with only three extra monofluids which would be great.

- There are sure star atomizer drops in both forest 2-1 (second teleporter) and 2-2 (where the 2-1 monolith is). Especially in 2-1 it takes very little time to get it and the actual value is multiplied since more money means that fewer money duplication rounds are needed.

- The monest in forest 2 can be triggered early (like in my forest ng+ video) but although I can walk through the mothmats without getting slowed down (zero target glitch) it takes a lot of luck to kill the monest without getting interrupted or accidently targeting a mothmat.

- In the last room I can run past the two goboomers (the hildebear won't appear until I kill them). As a bonus, this allows me to easily hit them with barta once (two times barta doesn't work).

Sorcerer88: Thanks. I know that page but now that I look at it again I see that the totems have a ETH of only 15 (EFR is 50). When I guess the position of the red totem correctly this doesn't matter but in some cases it could make a difference. Maybe I can also use zonde aiming to make it easier to target two totems (target one with foie but stand near second one that will be hit by zonde). In my run I screwed up in one round.

In my old run I noted the monitor and totem positions for each fight and I noticed (unfortunately pretty late) that the order in which the five monitors light up during the cutscene are different each time. Maybe I can find something with more data.

Edit: This time I keep videos of all my test runs so I can check things later.

I did some forest research and already found several improvements. I plan to check all rooms of all acceptable maps for avoidable monster triggers and new shortcuts (which usually mean to kill only certain monsters / groups to open doors). I also timed the crates in forest.

- in forest 1 room 2 I can save 1-2 seconds by fighting the monest from a distance and staying closer to the door. This works since it spawns only two mothmats. It is still somewhat tricky since you have to keep the monest busy all the time. When fighting from a distance zonde seems to be more reliable at keeping the monest stunlocked but you have to be very careful not to hit the rappies when they get up. I am not yet 100% sure whether this will end up in the run but it certainly looks good:

http://www.wongr.net/dexter/pso/pso1-forest1-monest.mp4

- in the next room, instead of using foie on the first boomer, it is slightly faster to immediately go for the two crates and then kill it with zonde. There is no need to turn and aim and you can stay at the right wall all the time.

- Don't kill the rappy in the room with the first teleporter in forest 2-1 and 2-2 (and the monolith in 2-1). This way you only need to kill a Gobooma, a savage wolf, a gigobooma, and the hildebear. It is a little annoying to fight the monsters with the rappy moving around but it should save time and precious TP. I still have to test whether this is enough to get through forest 2-1 (shortest map) with only three extra monofluids which would be great.

- There are sure star atomizer drops in both forest 2-1 (second teleporter) and 2-2 (where the 2-1 monolith is). Especially in 2-1 it takes very little time to get it and the actual value is multiplied since more money means that fewer money duplication rounds are needed.

- The monest in forest 2 can be triggered early (like in my forest ng+ video) but although I can walk through the mothmats without getting slowed down (zero target glitch) it takes a lot of luck to kill the monest without getting interrupted or accidently targeting a mothmat.

- In the last room I can run past the two goboomers (the hildebear won't appear until I kill them). As a bonus, this allows me to easily hit them with barta once (two times barta doesn't work).

Sorcerer88: Thanks. I know that page but now that I look at it again I see that the totems have a ETH of only 15 (EFR is 50). When I guess the position of the red totem correctly this doesn't matter but in some cases it could make a difference. Maybe I can also use zonde aiming to make it easier to target two totems (target one with foie but stand near second one that will be hit by zonde). In my run I screwed up in one round.

In my old run I noted the monitor and totem positions for each fight and I noticed (unfortunately pretty late) that the order in which the five monitors light up during the cutscene are different each time. Maybe I can find something with more data.

Edit: This time I keep videos of all my test runs so I can check things later.

Sorcerer88

2008-04-12 11:57:09 am

I have no solution, but i admire the problem.

Yeah maybe you notice a pattern in vol opt when looking at 20+ fights. Or just a better strategy to have the highest possible chances.

Quote:

http://www.wongr.net/dexter/pso/pso1-forest1-monest.mp4

That looked good. But i don't fully understand these foie-zonde changes: zonde seems to reload faster, and foie only needs 1 tp more and makes 2 more damage, so it seems like you should only use zonde.

Also, PSOWorld doesn't seem to have good info about the "standard" items like star atomizer, difluid etc. I found 2 drops for pinkal, but i guess you already know them:
Blue Barrier 1/6502 by Dimenian
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=558
Amplifier of Barta - Forest 1 Box, drop chance N/A
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=602

D A P

2008-04-13 04:43:05 am

Dexter, have you thought of doing a NewGame+ run to submit?
Use the dupe-glitch to max out your Force (if you haven't already) and go for a sub-1hour run on Normal (or Ult.)?

And how serious are you about submitting this new 'regular newgame dupe-glitch run'?
Of course you want to do it and we want to see it. But are you really planning on redoing your run?
I'm mainly asking because if you are definite about doing this new run, then we should help you.
Otherwise we are only documenting the games engine for no use.

Speaking of 'documenting': I've always wanted (I'm sure everyone does) to ask the game creators themselves questions I have about their game and also see the game from the inside (you know, important stuff like 'triggers').
Therefore and Email to PSO's creators asking about Vol Ops weaknesses and such could work, a reply useful reply is highly unlikely I'd think (they've probably got hundreds about how the 'drop system' works and how to increase chances).

p.s.: thanks for updating this thread, it is the only one that I await the next post from on all of SDA.

Dexter, have you thought of doing a NewGame+ run to submit?
Use the dupe-glitch to max out your Force (if you haven't already) and go for a sub-1hour run on Normal (or Ult.)?

And how serious are you about submitting this new 'regular newgame dupe-glitch run'?
Of course you [i]want[/i] to do it and we want to see it.  But are you really planning on redoing your run?
I'm mainly asking because if you are definite about doing this new run, then we should help you.
Otherwise we are only documenting the games engine for no use.

Speaking of 'documenting': I've always wanted (I'm sure everyone does) to ask the game creators themselves questions I have about their game and also see the game from the inside (you know, important stuff like 'triggers').
Therefore and Email to PSO's creators asking about Vol Ops weaknesses and such could work, a reply useful reply is highly unlikely I'd think (they've probably got hundreds about how the 'drop system' works and how to increase chances).

p.s.: thanks for updating this thread, it is the only one that I await the next post from on all of SDA.

dexter

Edit history:

dexter: 2008-04-13 06:32:15 pm

2008-04-13 06:26:31 pm

Quote:

That looked good. But i don't fully understand these foie-zonde changes: zonde seems to reload faster, and foie only needs 1 tp more and makes 2 more damage, so it seems like you should only use zonde.

I have to use foie at least three times to kill it in 8 hits. The first hit should always be foie since I can cast it before the target becomes available (not done in the video). It still happens pretty often though that a third mothmat slips out or I accidently hit a rappy.

Quote:

Blue Barrier 1/6502 by Dimenian
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=558
Amplifier of Barta - Forest 1 Box, drop chance N/A
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=602

I don't think they help in a Pinkal run. The problem is that the barta merge could only be used in ruins and would have to make up for at least two minutes of hunting. Regular monsters vulnerable to cold already die very quickly when I have barta 6 and while my DF2 fight was not very fast this was mainly due to DF not being cooperative so I couldn't get hits in.

Quote:

Dexter, have you thought of doing a NewGame+ run to submit?
Use the dupe-glitch to max out your Force (if you haven't already) and go for a sub-1hour run on Normal (or Ult.)?

I am not planning to do a NG+ run right now. Maybe I will improve my NG+ forest run though. Actually I did a new run that is about 8 seconds faster a few days ago but I didn't post it since it has some glaring mistakes. Your idea to use gifoie works great Smiley

However, I still can't finish off dragon without stunning him (even with barta 30 and ice staff: dagon). Unfortunately I don't have a blue barrier.

Quote:

And how serious are you about submitting this new 'regular newgame dupe-glitch run'?
Of course you want to do it and we want to see it. But are you really planning on redoing your run?

I am serious about doing a new run but I won't work on it day and night so don't expect it to be done in one or two months.

Quote:

Speaking of 'documenting': I've always wanted (I'm sure everyone does) to ask the game creators themselves questions I have about their game and also see the game from the inside (you know, important stuff like 'triggers').

I would like to see the source code but they are not likely to give it to anyone Wink

About drop rates, I think that people already inspected game files or something. The numbers are too precise to be deduced by gameplay (or they are just made up)

For Vol Opt it is probably more a matter of a weak pseudo random number generator (like in lufia 2, joker doom in ff6, and in many other games) than deliberate patterns.

EDIT: almost forgot to mention that I can now get through forest 2-1 with only three extra monofluids. The rappy in the room with the teleporter is still a problem though. I have to figure out how to keep it from getting in the way when fighting the other monsters.

[quote]That looked good. But i don't fully understand these foie-zonde changes: zonde seems to reload faster, and foie only needs 1 tp more and makes 2 more damage, so it seems like you should only use zonde.[/quote]

I have to use foie at least three times to kill it in 8 hits. The first hit should always be foie since I can cast it before the target becomes available (not done in the video). It still happens pretty often though that a third mothmat slips out or I accidently hit a rappy.

[quote]Blue Barrier 1/6502 by Dimenian
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=558
Amplifier of Barta - Forest 1 Box, drop chance N/A
http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=602
[/quote]

I don't think they help in a Pinkal run. The problem is that the barta merge could only be used in ruins and would have to make up for at least two minutes of hunting. Regular monsters vulnerable to cold already die very quickly when I have barta 6 and while my DF2 fight was not very fast this was mainly due to DF not being cooperative so I couldn't get hits in.

[quote]Dexter, have you thought of doing a NewGame+ run to submit?
Use the dupe-glitch to max out your Force (if you haven't already) and go for a sub-1hour run on Normal (or Ult.)?[/quote]

I am not planning to do a NG+ run right now. Maybe I will improve my NG+ forest run though. Actually I did a new run that is about 8 seconds faster a few days ago but I didn't post it since it has some glaring mistakes. Your idea to use gifoie works great :)
However, I still can't finish off dragon without stunning him (even with barta 30 and ice staff: dagon). Unfortunately I don't have a blue barrier.

[quote]And how serious are you about submitting this new 'regular newgame dupe-glitch run'?
Of course you [i]want[/i] to do it and we want to see it.  But are you really planning on redoing your run?[/quote]

I am serious about doing a new run but I won't work on it day and night so don't expect it to be done in one or two months.

[quote]Speaking of 'documenting': I've always wanted (I'm sure everyone does) to ask the game creators themselves questions I have about their game and also see the game from the inside (you know, important stuff like 'triggers').[/quote]

I would like to see the source code but they are not likely to give it to anyone ;)
About drop rates, I think that people already inspected game files or something. The numbers are too precise to be deduced by gameplay (or they are just made up)

For Vol Opt it is probably more a matter of a weak pseudo random number generator (like in lufia 2, joker doom in ff6, and in many other games) than deliberate patterns.

EDIT: almost forgot to mention that I can now get through forest 2-1 with only three extra monofluids. The rappy in the room with the teleporter is still a problem though. I have to figure out how to keep it from getting in the way when fighting the other monsters.

D A P

2008-04-20 05:33:05 pm

Are you sure a Force is the best choice for a dupe-glitch run?

What about the RAcast with high HP, ATP, ATA, and long distance weapons?
You would hunt (then dupe) for a Mono(Di/Tri)grinder and grind your Handgun (maybe one with %) to the max (75?), and possibly hunt for a Power Material to raise his ATP even higher.
He would be doing damage much higher than a Force.

Would a Force be better then him only because the Techniques can his multiple enemies?

JoChi

2008-04-21 04:55:38 am

A force would need less duped things, thus saving more time.
At least that's what my guts tells me.

Also, I finally started doing the "official" run on Ruins (sorry for the delays guys :-[ ). But so far the game refuse to give me the right Ruin2 map...

dexter

Edit history:

dexter: 2008-04-21 12:33:26 pm

2008-04-21 12:23:42 pm

I don't have the numbers here right now but duplicating enough materials and grinders would cost quite some time that has to be made up for, preferably before ruins. Furthermore, you would have to deal a lot of damage to make up for multiple hits against de rol le and vol opt 2, and a force is already quite fast against regular enemies.

In ruins rafoie kicks in and IIRC the max. grind value of shotguns is pretty bad. If you grind a handgun or rifle early on you pretty much have to stick to it while you could get some of the damage bonus "for free" (better weapons).

That said, I have no idea whether it works. It would be necessary to do some testing but I doubt that it would be faster. Would be great to see a ranger run though Grin

It might be better to go for rifles / guns with elemental damage. When messing around with a RAmar for mag feeding some time ago I got a fire rifle (three stars) in caves 1. With that most enemies go down in two hits and thanks to high ATA you hit pretty consistently.

About my run, I did some caves testing (no shortcuts in fastest maps found, but I still have to test several only slighty slower maps) and vol opt fights. I got painfully reminded how good the 8 round fight was :-/
The foie / zonde tactic works more or less but I am not sure whether this is easier than the old tactic. I can easily target two pillars but the problem is that I have to fire foie early to stunlock the (potentially) red pillar but if I do that and the pillar next to me is the red one i am often too late to stunlock it with zonde (since I had to cast foie before).

One advantage is that I can target to pillars that are not adjacent that way, and timing might be easier in that case since I can cast foie earlier (although it can be troublesome to look in the right direction and hit it before the target becomes available).

Edit:

Quote:

Also, I finally started doing the "official" run on Ruins (sorry for the delays guys :-[ ). But so far the game refuse to give me the right Ruin2 map...

Good to see you are working on the run again Smiley

Maps can be really frustrating... During the final session of my run I had a record 35 minutes of resets just to get the right ruins 1 map. Makes you think about ruins 2, ruins 3, Digger/HPs, and money. When I finally got the map I screwed up so badly that I reset before reaching ruins 2 Wink

BTW, while looking around for challange mode stuff at pso-world, I read about some hunter tactics that might help (in case you don't know them already). I don't remember all details but apparently you can stunlock most enemies by slightly delaying the hits in combos.

I don't have the numbers here right now but duplicating enough materials and grinders would cost quite some time that has to be made up for, preferably before ruins. Furthermore, you would have to deal a lot of damage to make up for multiple hits against de rol le and vol opt 2, and a force is already quite fast against regular enemies.

In ruins rafoie kicks in and IIRC the max. grind value of shotguns is pretty bad. If you grind a handgun or rifle early on you pretty much have to stick to it while you could get some of the damage bonus "for free" (better weapons).

That said, I have no idea whether it works. It would be necessary to do some testing but I doubt that it would be faster. Would be great to see a ranger run though ;D
It might be better to go for rifles / guns with elemental damage. When messing around with a RAmar for mag feeding some time ago I got a fire rifle (three stars) in caves 1. With that most enemies go down in two hits and thanks to high ATA you hit pretty consistently.

About my run, I did some caves testing (no shortcuts in fastest maps found, but I still have to test several only slighty slower maps) and vol opt fights. I got painfully reminded how good the 8 round fight was :-/
The foie / zonde tactic works more or less but I am not sure whether this is easier than the old tactic. I can easily target two pillars but the problem is that I have to fire foie early to stunlock the (potentially) red pillar but if I do that and the pillar next to me is the red one i am often too late to stunlock it with zonde (since I had to cast foie before).

One advantage is that I can target to pillars that are not adjacent that way, and timing might be easier in that case since I can cast foie earlier (although it can be troublesome to look in the right direction and hit it before the target becomes available).

Edit:
[quote]Also, I finally started doing the "official" run on Ruins (sorry for the delays guys :-[ ).  But so far the game refuse to give me the right Ruin2 map...[/quote]

Good to see you are working on the run again :)
Maps can be really frustrating... During the final session of my run I had a record 35 minutes of resets just to get the right ruins 1 map. Makes you think about ruins 2, ruins 3, Digger/HPs, and money. When I finally got the map I screwed up so badly that I reset before reaching ruins 2 ;)

BTW, while looking around for challange mode stuff at pso-world, I read about some hunter tactics that might help (in case you don't know them already). I don't remember all details but apparently you can stunlock most enemies by slightly delaying the hits in combos.

D A P

Edit history:

D A P: 2008-04-22 10:17:28 pm

2008-04-22 12:34:44 am

dexter, how many times will you do the shop-glitch in your new run?
Are you only using the glitch for money, to buy fluids and therefore saving you the time of picking up any items in battle? What other differences will there be in the new run?
And how do you stack items?
Can you really only duplicate one type of item at a time? I know you can keep duping with the menus open, but could you use 2 of the same item, like two MonoGrinders on a wep, then deposit those same 2, take them out of the back and repeat? I can only get one at a time to work for me.

If you have a Frame with slot(s) and a Unit at the time you do the glitch, then you should do the Unit glitch while you have the menus open:
Equip a Frame with a slot, then deposit that Frame into the bank and at the same time you press A on Yes to deposit it, you will also be pressing A on a Unit in your Equip window to equip. Thus having a Unit equipped and a Frame in your bank.
You can quit right after you load your char. and your stat(s) will raise again, this is useful if you want to max your stats so you don't have to do the shop-glitch everytime you load the game.
Once you equip a Frame with slots then the Unit is automatically equipped to it. Therefore you cannot have the one glitched unit and 4 other equipped units making it so that when you load your char each time to play you gain stats, this does not work.

Does the ATP and early multi-hit wep -sword- of a HUcast outweigh the time saved of not having to run to each enemy with a RAcast?
That is why you chose the HUcast right JoChi, because of the highest ATP? Do you use the 'sword' much?

Will the new Force 'dupe-glitch run' replace the old Force run?
Will JoChi's HUcast Gamecube run replace the HUcast Dreamcast run?

dexter, how many times will you do the shop-glitch in your new run?
Are you only using the glitch for money, to buy fluids and therefore saving you the time of picking up any items in battle?  What other differences will there be in the new run?
And how do you stack items?
Can you really only duplicate one [i]type[/i] of item at a time?  I know you can keep duping with the menus open, but could you use 2 of the same item, like two MonoGrinders on a wep, then deposit those same 2, take them out of the back and repeat?  I can only get one at a time to work for me.

If you have a Frame with slot(s) and a Unit at the time you do the glitch, then you should do the Unit glitch while you have the menus open:
Equip a Frame with a slot, then deposit that Frame into the bank and at the same time you press A on Yes to deposit it, you will also be pressing A on a Unit in your Equip window to equip.  Thus having a Unit equipped and a Frame in your bank.
You can quit right after you load your char. and your stat(s) will raise again, this is useful if you want to max your stats so you don't have to do the shop-glitch everytime you load the game.
Once you equip a Frame with slots then the Unit is automatically equipped to it.  Therefore you cannot have the one glitched unit and 4 other equipped units making it so that when you load your char each time to play you gain stats, this does not work.

Does the ATP and early multi-hit wep -sword- of a HUcast outweigh the time saved of not having to run to each enemy with a RAcast?
That  is why you chose the HUcast right JoChi, because of the highest ATP?  Do you use the 'sword' much?

Will the new Force 'dupe-glitch run' replace the old Force run?
Will JoChi's HUcast Gamecube run replace the HUcast Dreamcast run?

JoChi

2008-04-22 01:09:45 am

Quote:

BTW, while looking around for challange mode stuff at pso-world, I read about some hunter tactics that might help (in case you don't know them already). I don't remember all details but apparently you can stunlock most enemies by slightly delaying the hits in combos.

Yeah, i have been doing that. Thanks for the tips though.
It really only matters for shark-type, dimenian-type, and delsaber (and to a lose extend, wolf). But w/out this technique, Ruins and Cave will be alot harder.

dexter

2008-04-22 11:30:39 pm

Quote:

dexter, how many times will you do the shop-glitch in your new run?
Are you only using the glitch for money, to buy fluids and therefore saving you the time of picking up any items in battle?

I plan to do the dupe glitch two times, after forest (to duplicate money) and after mines (to duplicate money, Digger/HPs, maybe HP materials (see below), and maybe trifluids (might be faster than duplicating the money for them)).

Quote:

What other differences will there be in the new run?

Pinkal section ID / better spells Smiley

I plan to manipulate barta 2 in caves 1 for a faster De Rol Le fight and get barta 6 and maybe zonde 6 for ruins. I have to test whether rafoie 2 helps but I doubt it since I can't buy it and I would have to boost MST.

Quote:

And how do you stack items?
Can you really only duplicate one type of item at a time? I know you can keep duping with the menus open, but could you use 2 of the same item, like two MonoGrinders on a wep, then deposit those same 2, take them out of the back and repeat? I can only get one at a time to work for me.

You can dupe stacked items (fluids, mates, etc.) and different types of normal items. You can also dupe several grinders (if you have them) before taking them back from the store. It is all just a matter of getting the menus in the correct state. For stacked items you have to compensate for the extra dialog but apart from that it is the same. The trick is to find "loops" that allow you to duplicate stuff quickly several times without breaking your fingers (like in my money vid).

Quote:

If you have a Frame with slot(s) and a Unit at the time you do the glitch, then you should do the Unit glitch while you have the menus open:
Equip a Frame with a slot, then deposit that Frame into the bank and at the same time you press A on Yes to deposit it, you will also be pressing A on a Unit in your Equip window to equip. Thus having a Unit equipped and a Frame in your bank.
You can quit right after you load your char. and your stat(s) will raise again, this is useful if you want to max your stats so you don't have to do the shop-glitch everytime you load the game.
Once you equip a Frame with slots then the Unit is automatically equipped to it. Therefore you cannot have the one glitched unit and 4 other equipped units making it so that when you load your char each time to play you gain stats, this does not work.

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean with the last sentence. I knew the trick but thought it was useless since you can make only the stat increase of one unit permanent (per save). BUT, I completely forgot about HP. If I do this glitch in the second duplication segment I can get by with three Digger/HPs so I don't have to hunt for HP material and can do all shopping (rafoie) in the duplication segment. Two segments saved.
So, whatever you meant, thanks Smiley

Quote:

Does the ATP and early multi-hit wep -sword- of a HUcast outweigh the time saved of not having to run to each enemy with a RAcast?

Not sure. With a fire rifle (see my other post) a ranger cuts through caves like butter but in mines and ruins a multi hit weapon helps a lot. There are also less enemies vulnerable to fire so you would need other weapons. Does anyone know when shotguns with elemental damage get available? Would it help to get an elemental damage sword in a hunter run or isn't it reliable enough because of ATA?

Of course, you could still massively boost ATP but a hunter can do the same. Would be interesting to know how many boosts are needed to effectively kill monsters in mines and ruins but I am afraid you need a lot.

Quote:

Will the new Force 'dupe-glitch run' replace the old Force run?
Will JoChi's HUcast Gamecube run replace the HUcast Dreamcast run?

I guess that a run with the duplication glitch would get a separate category since it works only on half the PSO releases and is a serious glitch. Dreamcast is a different category according to the game page but JoChi's run will be much better despite no door walking glitch so the old run might get taken down.

[quote]dexter, how many times will you do the shop-glitch in your new run?
Are you only using the glitch for money, to buy fluids and therefore saving you the time of picking up any items in battle?[/quote]

I plan to do the dupe glitch two times, after forest (to duplicate money) and after mines (to duplicate money, Digger/HPs, maybe HP materials (see below), and maybe trifluids (might be faster than duplicating the money for them)).

[quote]What other differences will there be in the new run?[/quote]

Pinkal section ID / better spells :)
I plan to manipulate barta 2 in caves 1 for a faster De Rol Le fight and get barta 6 and maybe zonde 6 for ruins. I have to test whether rafoie 2 helps but I doubt it since I can't buy it and I would have to boost MST.

[quote]And how do you stack items?
Can you really only duplicate one [i]type[/i] of item at a time?  I know you can keep duping with the menus open, but could you use 2 of the same item, like two MonoGrinders on a wep, then deposit those same 2, take them out of the back and repeat?  I can only get one at a time to work for me.[/quote]

You can dupe stacked items (fluids, mates, etc.) and different types of normal items. You can also dupe several grinders (if you have them) before taking them back from the store. It is all just a matter of getting the menus in the correct state. For stacked items you have to compensate for the extra dialog but apart from that it is the same. The trick is to find "loops" that allow you to duplicate stuff quickly several times without breaking your fingers (like in my money vid).

[quote]If you have a Frame with slot(s) and a Unit at the time you do the glitch, then you should do the Unit glitch while you have the menus open:
Equip a Frame with a slot, then deposit that Frame into the bank and at the same time you press A on Yes to deposit it, you will also be pressing A on a Unit in your Equip window to equip.  Thus having a Unit equipped and a Frame in your bank.
You can quit right after you load your char. and your stat(s) will raise again, this is useful if you want to max your stats so you don't have to do the shop-glitch everytime you load the game.
Once you equip a Frame with slots then the Unit is automatically equipped to it.  Therefore you cannot have the one glitched unit and 4 other equipped units making it so that when you load your char each time to play you gain stats, this does not work.[/quote]

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean with the last sentence. I knew the trick but thought it was useless since you can make only the stat increase of one unit permanent (per save). BUT, I completely forgot about HP. If I do this glitch in the second duplication segment I can get by with three Digger/HPs so I don't have to hunt for HP material and can do all shopping (rafoie) in the duplication segment. Two segments saved.
So, whatever you meant, thanks :)

[quote]Does the ATP and early multi-hit wep -sword- of a HUcast outweigh the time saved of not having to run to each enemy with a RAcast?[/quote]

Not sure. With a fire rifle (see my other post) a ranger cuts through caves like butter but in mines and ruins a multi hit weapon helps a lot. There are also less enemies vulnerable to fire so you would need other weapons. Does anyone know when shotguns with elemental damage get available? Would it help to get an elemental damage sword in a hunter run or isn't it reliable enough because of ATA?

Of course, you could still massively boost ATP but a hunter can do the same. Would be interesting to know how many boosts are needed to effectively kill monsters in mines and ruins but I am afraid you need a lot.

[quote]Will the new Force 'dupe-glitch run' replace the old Force run?
Will JoChi's HUcast Gamecube run replace the HUcast Dreamcast run?[/quote]

I guess that a run with the duplication glitch would get a separate category since it works only on half the PSO releases and is a serious glitch. Dreamcast is a different category according to the game page but JoChi's run will be much better despite no door walking glitch so the old run might get taken down.

D A P

2008-04-23 03:29:40 am

Quote:

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean with the last sentence. I knew the trick but thought it was useless since you can make only the stat increase of one unit permanent (per save). BUT, I completely forgot about HP. If I do this glitch in the second duplication segment I can get by with three Digger/HPs so I don't have to hunt for HP material and can do all shopping (rafoie) in the duplication segment. Two segments saved.
So, whatever you meant, thanks Smiley

Not sure. With a fire rifle (see my other post) a ranger cuts through caves like butter but in mines and ruins a multi hit weapon helps a lot.

Yes, you are correct about only one Unit working at a time.
HOWEVER, you cannot increase HP and TP using this glitch!
So if you were thinking about using a DiggerHP to increase your HP permanently using the unit glitch, sorry, that doesn't work.

When you talk about elemental weapons, are you talking about using the 'special attack' or do the weapons have bonuses on regular attacks as well?

[quote]
Sorry, I am not sure what you mean with the last sentence. I knew the trick but thought it was useless since you can make only the stat increase of one unit permanent (per save). BUT, I completely forgot about HP. If I do this glitch in the second duplication segment I can get by with three Digger/HPs so I don't have to hunt for HP material and can do all shopping (rafoie) in the duplication segment. Two segments saved.
So, whatever you meant, thanks :)

Not sure. With a fire rifle (see my other post) a ranger cuts through caves like butter but in mines and ruins a multi hit weapon helps a lot.
[/quote]
Yes, you are correct about only one Unit working at a time.
HOWEVER, you [i]cannot[/i] increase HP and TP using this glitch!  
So if you were thinking about using a DiggerHP to increase your HP permanently using the unit glitch, sorry, that doesn't work.

When you talk about elemental weapons, are you talking about using the 'special attack' or do the weapons have bonuses on regular attacks as well?

dexter

2008-04-23 04:30:35 am

What exactly does not work? I tested it with a level 30 HUcast and a General/HP. He has now 288HP (+20) and four attack boosting units equipped. Smiley

I am going to test it with a FOnl + Digger/HP again to make sure but so far it looks fine.

About elemental damage: yes, I meant special attacks

JoChi

2008-04-23 08:36:28 am

Quote:

Does the ATP and early multi-hit wep -sword- of a HUcast outweigh the time saved of not having to run to each enemy with a RAcast?
That is why you chose the HUcast right JoChi, because of the highest ATP? Do you use the 'sword' much?

multi-hit weapon are heavily used starting from cave boss. In Ruin they become the life line of hunter (the amount of enemy in Ruin is just ridiculous). Before then, there's no need for multi-hit weapon at all.
To be honest, I don't really have to use HUcast. HUcaseal would probably be just as good. But there is a large difference between the ATP level of hunter and ranger. In fact, a ranger will probably take just as long to kill an enemy from afar as hunter from close range. Not to mention there are situations where you will be forced to fight in close range anyway. Of course, this did not take into account of elemental (special) attack.

While we are at the subject of elemental attack, I did not use any for my run. HUcast's ATA is just too low for that (sometimes I even have a hard time landing the first hit...). In general, elemental attack are best reserved for long range weapon.

I believe shotgun only starts to appear in Ruin, possibly at the boss room of mine. But I still maintain that shotgun's animation, ATP, and ATA makes it unusable.

Quote:

Will JoChi's HUcast Gamecube run replace the HUcast Dreamcast run?

maybe, maybe not. While it's true that my time is a lot faster than the dreamcast run (despite the DC run utilizing door skip), I have a huge advantage that's unavailable to the DC ver.: traps. Traps help tremendously in mine and ruins, where the enemy counts greatly increase.

[quote]Does the ATP and early multi-hit wep -sword- of a HUcast outweigh the time saved of not having to run to each enemy with a RAcast?
That  is why you chose the HUcast right JoChi, because of the highest ATP?  Do you use the 'sword' much?[/quote] multi-hit weapon are heavily used starting from cave boss.   In Ruin they become the life line of hunter (the amount of enemy in Ruin is just ridiculous).   Before then, there's no need for multi-hit weapon at all.  
To be honest, I don't really have to use HUcast.  HUcaseal would probably be just as good.  But there is a large difference between the ATP level of hunter and ranger.  In fact, a ranger will probably take just as long to kill an enemy from afar as hunter from close range.  Not to mention there are situations where you will be forced to fight in close range anyway.  Of course, this did not take into account of elemental (special) attack.

While we are at the subject of elemental attack, I did not use any for my run.  HUcast's ATA is just too low for that (sometimes I even have a hard time landing the first hit...).  In general, elemental attack are best reserved for long range weapon.

I believe shotgun only starts to appear in Ruin, possibly at the boss room of mine.  But I still maintain that shotgun's animation, ATP, and ATA makes it unusable.

[quote]Will JoChi's HUcast Gamecube run replace the HUcast Dreamcast run?[/quote]
maybe, maybe not.  While it's true that my time is a lot faster than the dreamcast run (despite the DC run utilizing door skip), I have a huge advantage that's unavailable to the DC ver.: traps.  Traps help tremendously in mine and ruins, where the enemy counts greatly increase.

D A P

Edit history:

D A P: 2008-04-24 01:55:22 am

2008-04-24 01:50:34 am

Quote:

What exactly does not work? I tested it with a level 30 HUcast and a General/HP. He has now 288HP (+20) and four attack boosting units equipped. Smiley

I am going to test it with a FOnl + Digger/HP again to make sure but so far it looks fine.

I am very sorry to have given you false information dexter.

I should have said what Unit I used that did not increase my HP; I was using a Hero Ability (+10 to all AT's except ATA, and +1 HP) to raise my stats, my HP did not move. The strange part is that my ATA did increase by +1 each load-save, and this was on my RAmar.

wait a sec here, are you saying that you have FOUR Units equipped along with a GeneralHP, totaling FIVE Units equipped at the same time?!?!
This must be impossible. But if not, then you have found yourself a very useful glitch for a speedrun! I must know if you have 5 units on at once though before I get ahead of myself.

Quote:

Not to mention there are situations where you will be forced to fight in close range anyway. Of course, this did not take into account of elemental (special) attack.

While we are at the subject of elemental attack, I did not use any for my run. HUcast's ATA is just too low for that (sometimes I even have a hard time landing the first hit...). In general, elemental attack are best reserved for long range weapon.

I believe shotgun only starts to appear in Ruin, possibly at the boss room of mine. But I still maintain that shotgun's animation, ATP, and ATA makes it unusable.

I have a huge advantage that's unavailable to the DC ver.: traps. Traps help tremendously in mine and ruins, where the enemy counts greatly increase.

Many good pointers you have there JoChi, thanks.

I forgot DC does not have Traps feature, they are sure very helpful like you said.

[quote]What exactly does not work? I tested it with a level 30 HUcast and a General/HP. He has now 288HP (+20) and four attack boosting units equipped. :)
I am going to test it with a FOnl + Digger/HP again to make sure but so far it looks fine.[/quote]
I am very sorry to have given you false information dexter.

I should have said what Unit I used that did not increase my HP; I was using a Hero Ability (+10 to all AT's except ATA, and +1 HP) to raise my stats, my HP did not move.  The strange part is that my ATA [i]did[/i] increase by +1 each load-save, and this was on my RAmar.

wait a sec here, are you saying that you have FOUR Units equipped along with a GeneralHP, totaling FIVE Units equipped at the same time?!?!
This must be impossible.  But if not, then you have found yourself a very useful glitch for a speedrun!  I must know if you have 5 units on at once though before I get ahead of myself.

[quote] Not to mention there are situations where you will be forced to fight in close range anyway.  Of course, this did not take into account of elemental (special) attack.

While we are at the subject of elemental attack, I did not use any for my run.  HUcast's ATA is just too low for that (sometimes I even have a hard time landing the first hit...).  In general, elemental attack are best reserved for long range weapon.

I believe shotgun only starts to appear in Ruin, possibly at the boss room of mine.  But I still maintain that shotgun's animation, ATP, and ATA makes it unusable.

I have a huge advantage that's unavailable to the DC ver.: traps.  Traps help tremendously in mine and ruins, where the enemy counts greatly increase.[/quote]
Many good pointers you have there JoChi, thanks.

I forgot DC does not have Traps feature, they are sure very helpful like you said.

dexter

2008-04-24 01:56:05 am

No, just the permanent stat increase of one General/HP (after save and load) and four equipped units. Still useful.

Brightstar

2008-04-26 05:49:00 pm

Quite interesting that you're going down this route of glitching. I suppose I should consider another run using a different method.

JoChi

2008-04-30 02:59:39 am

Bah, the game continues to deny me of the right map, although i finally got the right ruin2 map for the first time =.=...

Just used up my first patch of dvd-r too. Gonna have to buy a new patch of dvd-r now...

dexter

2008-04-30 03:43:43 pm

Yes, maps can be frustrating... Can't your recorder record on rw discs? Would probably save you some money.

Quote:

Quite interesting that you're going down this route of glitching. I suppose I should consider another run using a different method.

Are you referring to the glitch that allows you to equip multiple weapons? Not sure how I could miss that but it makes hunters easily the fastest class. You have to do the glitch in each segment but with a sword, a dagger, a handgun, and about 20 equipped sabers there is not much to worry about. The boss fights alone make easily up for the delay...

D A P

Edit history:

D A P: 2008-04-30 07:03:20 pm

2008-04-30 06:47:58 pm

Quote:

rw discs?

equip multiple weapons? Not sure how I could miss that but it makes hunters easily the fastest class.

My same thought.

A text or video tutorial would be nice, please http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBBImages/shocked.gif
Shocked
EDIT: dang it, I keep forgetting Rangers can't use a multi-hit wep until Ruins (Shot), and Hunters get a Sword in Forest or Caves.

The shop-glitch works on DreamCast right? Tongue

Brightstar

2008-05-01 02:45:41 am

It's much harder to do since there's no transparancy.