Lufia

2006-02-20 05:06:30 am

Trebdor the Selbonator

*applauds*

Nice job, DTK. Can't wait to see it.

Are you planning on working on it any more? or is this the final version?

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-02-20 06:29:06 am

2006-02-20 06:27:07 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Ok, I saw your update while I was in the middle of writing this long reply, but I'll finish first (almost done) and then get to the new stuff.

Quote:

Do you mean the cave? Forgot name, but its kinda like the ancient cave. The higher your level, the further you can in.

I remembered the name of the cave and the nearby town while driving today: Old Cave and Grenoble. Also, there's an elevator so it's not like you need to go "further in" for speed purposes.

DTaeKim, what's as low a probability of being able to defeat a boss during a speedrun segment that you would accept?

Quote:

I could save tremendous amounts of time by abusing these monsters, the likelihood of doing so is low, since it requires a minimum of 5 hits of favorable damage followed by the fact that they must remain for that long. More often that not, they run, wasting the effort.

If you can do it by segmenting enough, by all means you should.

Quote:

As in finish the game at 28? Possible, but highly unlikely. With that, it would mean that I run through the final four bosses with one source of healing: Boost, since Lufia is gone. It doesn't heal enough after a spell at that point; they deal 120+ damage to all allies. I think 32 is the lowest managable, since Mirror is an absolute must in finish the game with the least headache as possible. In addition, most of the final few bosses utilize spells as their main damage dealer. Mirror = reflected spells and less pain for me in general.

I'm not saying that you should necessarily finish the game at 28, but maybe level less to get Mirror later than when you did the first time. At any rate, once you have Mirror you definitely shouldn't fight any more regular enemies. How early can you get the wish from the first set of Dragon Eggs anyway?

Quote:

I could tell you after I run the final portion again. Unfortunately, I think the exact definition states that the player has to lose control. I control the dialogue for half the epilogue, then the credits begin.

I'm fairly certain that "control" refers to being able to move your character around and doesn't apply to advancing dialog.

Quote:

Flash Ring is the MOST important accessory in the game.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to make sure.

Quote:

I picked up around 28, though I only used about 2. I probably should have ended up selling some. I also probably will end up using more Miracles as Revives. The extra HP recovered helps.

If you only used 2 of your 28 Miracles I would humbly suggest that your levels could be lower. Also, if you are picking up that many unused items, I need to warn you whenever you do your next test run to get only whatever is necessary.

Quote:

I end up going in there for the 3rd Floor for the equipment and items, but never until the 5th Floor, where it's mandatory.

I just wanted to make sure you remembered the place. Side question because I just thought of it: I was just curious what cursed equipment you get.

Quote:

Jerin learns Mirror at Level 32. It's only four levels beyond Boost. At the Water Ghost, I was around Lvl. 15-16. At Guardian, I was in my low 20s. At Pirates, I was in my low 30s/high 20s. Oil Dragon was low 30s. Nazeby was the only boss I wrote my levels down specifically. He was also the boss I first had Mirror with.

Nazeby
Hero - Lvl. 39
Lufia - Lvl. 38
Aguro - Lvl. 36
Jerin - Lvl. 33

Beyond that, add one level per boss. IIRC, I think my final levels were:

Hero - Lvl. 43
Lufia - Lvl. 38
Aguro - Lvl. 40
Jerin - Lvl. 37

The biggest reason for this sudden level jump was the experience change. Around the Water Ghost, the most experience I picked up was around 300. Around Odel, I suddenly gained around 600-800. At lower levels, these monsters level you up quickly. I think the Alumina quest alone bumped my levels by 3 - 4, even with Sweet Waters.

Once you get Mirror, there definitely shouldn't be any more reason to gain XP for the rest of the game. (This is why I wasn't too keen on getting Mirror too early, because the XP of anybody you fight later is suboptimal.) So I don't know why Jerin would be at 33 vs Nazeby.

I'm glad you listed those levels, because this brings up a point that could save lots of time. You only need Jerin to be at 32. You don't need to level up everyone! Definitely, you should kill off other people while leveling so that Jerin isn't behind anybody else in levels before you get Mirror. Most of the game, since the others deal damage, Jerin being behind is good, but having her be the first to reach 32 is a good idea.

Quote:

I have a topic created for speed run help, but little interest in it so far. Maybe I ought to detail my run specifically and see if I can get more help. Monster statistics would help tremendously, especially the boss stats.

It wouldn't surprise me that you wouldn't get much response since Lufia 1 is so old. Perhaps you'd get better response if you posted in the Lufia 2 thread (there's a romhacker called reli that knows everything about 2, he might be able to look at 1). Or maybe people don't realize that you're recording for a site like SDA. That might get more buzz than if it was just some guy doing it purely for fun.

Quote:

EDIT: You know, I just might be crazy enough to single-segment this. If not, well, I have an idea of how I'm going to segment this.

Segment 1: Alekia, before leaving for Sheran
Segment 2: Sheran, before leaving for Treck
Segment 3: Treck, before fighting Mini-Demons
Segment 4: Treck, after fighting Mini-Demons
Segment 5: Medan, before fighting Apprentice
Segment 6: Medan, before entering Ghost Cave.
Segment 7: Belgen, before Dais Key.
Segment 8: Dais, before entering Tower north of Dais.
Segment 9: Belgen, after fighting Follower.
Segment 10: Ruan, before righting Water Ghost.
Segment 11: Carbis, before going to Bakku.
Segment 12: Bakku, before ascending Tower of Light.
Segment 13: Linze, before descending into the cave.
Segment 14: Herat, before entering Purple Newt Cave.
Segment 15: Marse, before fighting Pirates.
Segment 16: Epro, before entering Oil Cave.
Segment 17: Arubus, before entering Glasadar Key cave.
Segment 18: Arubus, before ascending Glasadar Tower.
Segment 19: Shrine before Doom Island Fortress.

Definitely don't SS this! I hope you're kidding, because that scares the crap out of me. Use as many segments as you like. You can have short core fighting segments if you need to.

Quote:

EDIT2: I HATE x17 the Follower with a passion. Mid Arrows do a paltry 18 damage; my best bet against this freaking sonuvagun is to go all out: Drain x2, then slash and Flash away. I'm at the Dais with 1:56 elapsed.

Shouldn't you be going all out versus everyone? Tongue

1:56 seems like a lot of improvement, as I guess it was from the next post.

Ok, I saw your update while I was in the middle of writing this long reply, but I'll finish first (almost done) and then get to the new stuff.

[quote]Do you mean the cave? Forgot name, but its kinda like the ancient cave. The higher your level, the further you can in.[/quote]
I remembered the name of the cave and the nearby town while driving today: Old Cave and Grenoble. Also, there's an elevator so it's not like you need to go "further in" for speed purposes.

DTaeKim, what's as low a probability of being able to defeat a boss during a speedrun segment that you would accept?

[quote]I could save tremendous amounts of time by abusing these monsters, the likelihood of doing so is low, since it requires a minimum of 5 hits of favorable damage followed by the fact that they must remain for that long.  More often that not, they run, wasting the effort.[/quote]
If you can do it by segmenting enough, by all means you should.

[quote]As in finish the game at 28?  Possible, but highly unlikely.  With that, it would mean that I run through the final four bosses with one source of healing: Boost, since Lufia is gone.  It doesn't heal enough after a spell at that point; they deal 120+ damage to all allies.  I think 32 is the lowest managable, since Mirror is an absolute must in finish the game with the least headache as possible.  In addition, most of the final few bosses utilize spells as their main damage dealer.  Mirror = reflected spells and less pain for me in general.[/quote]
I'm not saying that you should necessarily finish the game at 28, but maybe level less to get Mirror later than when you did the first time. At any rate, once you have Mirror you definitely shouldn't fight any more regular enemies. How early can you get the wish from the first set of Dragon Eggs anyway?

[quote]I could tell you after I run the final portion again.  Unfortunately, I think the exact definition states that the player has to lose control.  I control the dialogue for half the epilogue, then the credits begin.[/quote]
I'm fairly certain that "control" refers to being able to move your character around and doesn't apply to advancing dialog.

[quote]Flash Ring is the MOST important accessory in the game.[/quote]
Yeah, that's why I wanted to make sure.

[quote]I picked up around 28, though I only used about 2.  I probably should have ended up selling some.  I also probably will end up using more Miracles as Revives.  The extra HP recovered helps.[/quote]
If you only used 2 of your 28 Miracles I would humbly suggest that your levels could be lower. Also, if you are picking up that many unused items, I need to warn you whenever you do your next test run to get [i]only[/i] whatever is necessary.

[quote]I end up going in there for the 3rd Floor for the equipment and items, but never until the 5th Floor, where it's mandatory.[/quote]
I just wanted to make sure you remembered the place. Side question because I just thought of it: I was just curious what cursed equipment you get.

[quote]Jerin learns Mirror at Level 32.  It's only four levels beyond Boost.  At the Water Ghost, I was around Lvl. 15-16.  At Guardian, I was in my low 20s.  At Pirates, I was in my low 30s/high 20s.  Oil Dragon was low 30s.  Nazeby was the only boss I wrote my levels down specifically.  He was also the boss I first had Mirror with.

Nazeby
Hero - Lvl. 39
Lufia - Lvl. 38
Aguro - Lvl. 36
Jerin - Lvl. 33

Beyond that, add one level per boss.  IIRC, I think my final levels were:

Hero - Lvl. 43
Lufia - Lvl. 38
Aguro - Lvl. 40
Jerin - Lvl. 37

The biggest reason for this sudden level jump was the experience change.  Around the Water Ghost, the most experience I picked up was around 300.  Around Odel, I suddenly gained around 600-800.  At lower levels, these monsters level you up quickly.  I think the Alumina quest alone bumped my levels by 3 - 4, even with Sweet Waters.[/quote]
Once you get Mirror, there definitely shouldn't be any more reason to gain XP for the rest of the game. (This is why I wasn't too keen on getting Mirror too early, because the XP of anybody you fight later is suboptimal.) So I don't know why Jerin would be at 33 vs Nazeby.

I'm glad you listed those levels, because this brings up a point that could save lots of time. You only need Jerin to be at 32. You don't need to level up everyone! Definitely, you should kill off other people while leveling so that Jerin isn't behind anybody else in levels before you get Mirror. Most of the game, since the others deal damage, Jerin being behind is good, but having her be the first to reach 32 is a good idea.

[quote]I have a topic created for speed run help, but little interest in it so far.  Maybe I ought to detail my run specifically and see if I can get more help.  Monster statistics would help tremendously, especially the boss stats.[/quote]
It wouldn't surprise me that you wouldn't get much response since Lufia 1 is so old. Perhaps you'd get better response if you posted in the Lufia 2 thread (there's a romhacker called reli that knows everything about 2, he might be able to look at 1). Or maybe people don't realize that you're recording for a site like SDA. That might get more buzz than if it was just some guy doing it purely for fun.

[quote]EDIT: You know, I just might be crazy enough to single-segment this.  If not, well, I have an idea of how I'm going to segment this.

Segment 1: Alekia, before leaving for Sheran
Segment 2: Sheran, before leaving for Treck
Segment 3: Treck, before fighting Mini-Demons
Segment 4: Treck, after fighting Mini-Demons
Segment 5: Medan, before fighting Apprentice
Segment 6: Medan, before entering Ghost Cave.
Segment 7: Belgen, before Dais Key.
Segment 8: Dais, before entering Tower north of Dais.
Segment 9: Belgen, after fighting Follower.
Segment 10: Ruan, before righting Water Ghost.
Segment 11: Carbis, before going to Bakku.
Segment 12: Bakku, before ascending Tower of Light.
Segment 13: Linze, before descending into the cave.
Segment 14: Herat, before entering Purple Newt Cave.
Segment 15: Marse, before fighting Pirates.
Segment 16: Epro, before entering Oil Cave.
Segment 17: Arubus, before entering Glasadar Key cave.
Segment 18: Arubus, before ascending Glasadar Tower.
Segment 19: Shrine before Doom Island Fortress.[/quote]
Definitely don't SS this! I hope you're kidding, because that scares the crap out of me. Use as many segments as you like. You can have short core fighting segments if you need to.

[quote]EDIT2: I HATE x17 the Follower with a passion.  Mid Arrows do a paltry 18 damage; my best bet against this freaking sonuvagun is to go all out: Drain x2, then slash and Flash away.  I'm at the Dais with 1:56 elapsed.[/quote]
Shouldn't you be going all out versus everyone? :P

1:56 seems like a lot of improvement, as I guess it was from the next post.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-02-20 06:30:04 am

2006-02-20 06:27:55 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

*applauds*

Nice job, DTK. Can't wait to see it.

Are you planning on working on it any more? or is this the final version?

I think he's still test running.

Edit: Just to clarify, I am far from asking you to speed up. I want you to take your time and get it right.

Enhasa

2006-02-20 06:49:27 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

And the stats.

Post Credits Time: 6:53
Dead count: 0
Rakke Dead cnt: 4
Lufia Dead cnt: 12
Aguro Dead cnt: 7
Jerin Dead cnt: 7
Rest count: 34
Battle count: 368
Runaway count: 49
Boss lose cnt: 0
Opened Box: 345/655
Got item: 79/136

That's right, I improved my time by an astonishing 1 hour 47 minutes!!!

How do you like that, Enhasa?

Nice, I'm glad you posted the stats BTW. Don't feel too good about yourself yet; I'm gonna make you earn your $100. Wink

About the stats, I repeat what I said earlier about Jerin's levels compared to the rest of the party.

And the post game stats:

Your dead counts look surprisingly low. I don't know if that's good or bad. Tongue

But obviously it hurts your speed if you are dying all the time. Although if you are dying more, it is obviously because you are at lower levels and thus spent less time leveling.

Rest count and battle count, I wouldn't be able to gauge. However, your runaway/battle ratio seems really low. Have you tried being more selective in the battles you fight? Or do they all roughly give the same experience and are similar in difficulty? Other than the ones you mentioned of course.

Got item, I also can't tell, but that opened box looks really high, especially considering most boxes are just some random item right? Next time, try to see if you could pick up less chests. You shouldn't ever have too much in the way of extra items or money. Definitely nothing like ending with lots of Miracles like the other run. Tongue

[quote]And the stats.

Post Credits Time: 6:53
Dead count: 0
Rakke Dead cnt: 4
Lufia Dead cnt: 12
Aguro Dead cnt: 7
Jerin Dead cnt: 7
Rest count: 34
Battle count: 368
Runaway count: 49
Boss lose cnt: 0
Opened Box: 345/655
Got item: 79/136

That's right, I improved my time by an astonishing [b]1 hour 47 minutes!!![/b]

How do you like that, Enhasa?[/quote]
Nice, I'm glad you posted the stats BTW. Don't feel too good about yourself yet; I'm gonna make you earn your $100. ;)

About the stats, I repeat what I said earlier about Jerin's levels compared to the rest of the party.

And the post game stats:

Your dead counts look surprisingly low. I don't know if that's good or bad. :P But obviously it hurts your speed if you are dying all the time. Although if you are dying more, it is obviously because you are at lower levels and thus spent less time leveling.

Rest count and battle count, I wouldn't be able to gauge. However, your runaway/battle ratio seems really low. Have you tried being more selective in the battles you fight? Or do they all roughly give the same experience and are similar in difficulty? Other than the ones you mentioned of course.

Got item, I also can't tell, but that opened box looks really high, especially considering most boxes are just some random item right? Next time, try to see if you could pick up less chests. You shouldn't ever have too much in the way of extra items or money. Definitely nothing like ending with lots of Miracles like the other run. :P

DTaeKim

Edit history:

DTaeKim: 2006-02-20 04:19:37 pm

2006-02-20 04:03:20 pm

By this point, I now know that Mirror is an absolute must, else everyone WILL get KOed by the spells. In order to do this, I have to hit Level 30 by the end of the Glasdar Key cave, so I can warp to Herat, grab the 2 levels by the Dragon, then run from everything else.

As for the opened box count, it also includes hidden items. The ones in dressers and bushes and whatnot. That's why it looks so high; I went for most of the items in there. Stat increasing items are about as good as a level up. Lufia gets all of the Mind Potions, Aguro gets all of the Speed Potions, Hero gets all of the Great Potions, and Jerin gets all of the Spell Potions. Power Potions goes to Hero; I found the difference matter between getting killed by Gades' Destroy or surviving with 20 or so HP.

This time around, I consumed 10 to 11 Miracles, all but 3 of them against Guard Daos. Bad luck actually had my entire party confused at one point. Everyone soon died except for Aguro, who engineered a comeback by opportune uses of Miracle. I'm still going to pick up as many Miracles as I can, because they save your ass in the boss battles, especially when one character bites the dust unexpectedly.

In addition, as for the battle question, I pretty much fight every battle I see. If one battle doesn't give a lot of EXP, it gives plenty of gold, and vice versa. The first two hours are probably the slowest in the game, since I now know by this point that the Phantasm and Follower are the two most difficult bosses at lower levels. The Phantasm because it's faster than you for the most part, and the Follower because its Stronger spell heals more HP than you can deal damage with your characters combined.

In addition, there's something that infuriates me. The HP values of the enemies aren't consistent. I noticed this when Aguro would suddenly OHKO an enemy that normally takes two hits to kill. I'm sure the difference is around 10 HP or so, but that difference means walking away from a battle unscathed and suddenly taking serious damage.

Probably the information I want the most is the boss HP. That way I can go all out when I suspect a boss is near death instead of wasting a turn healing, extending the battle.

As for the Old Cave, this time around, I cleaned out everything up until the 5th level, then never reentered. This is mostly for equipment, which is very expensive, especially with my limited funds. I sometimes skirt of them, probably hurting me more in the long run as I have to spend time healing.

I pretty much rest when I enter a town, unless said inn is a tad out of the way. Most inns aren't the case, so this point is null.

I'm probably going to change the route somewhat, because I feel like an idiot for not realizing this sooner. You can enter the cave east of Herat anytime you like, thus getting the badly needed Engage Ring (reduces shop prices by 1/4). I'm probably going to use a segment to get the Might Helmet (oh it helps SO much in survival) and the Engage Ring/Purple Newt. It drops the prices in Frederia, saving me much cash and headache.

I'm also going to say that some small leveling will be needed before the Phantasm and Follower. Follower's levels are detailed above. I tried at 13/13/12, but I only succeeded once out of fourteen tries. Phantasm I think I tried at 12/11/11, but only succeeded once out of 8. At 13/12/12, I beat the Phantasm with little trouble. Those two bosses are probably the most difficult in the run.

By this point, I now know that Mirror is an absolute must, else everyone WILL get KOed by the spells.  In order to do this, I have to hit Level 30 by the end of the Glasdar Key cave, so I can warp to Herat, grab the 2 levels by the Dragon, then run from everything else.

As for the opened box count, it also includes hidden items.  The ones in dressers and bushes and whatnot.  That's why it looks so high; I went for most of the items in there.  Stat increasing items are about as good as a level up.  Lufia gets all of the Mind Potions, Aguro gets all of the Speed Potions, Hero gets all of the Great Potions, and Jerin gets all of the Spell Potions.  Power Potions goes to Hero; I found the difference matter between getting killed by Gades' Destroy or surviving with 20 or so HP.

This time around, I consumed 10 to 11 Miracles, all but 3 of them against Guard Daos.  Bad luck actually had my entire party confused at one point.  Everyone soon died except for Aguro, who engineered a comeback by opportune uses of Miracle.  I'm still going to pick up as many Miracles as I can, because they save your ass in the boss battles, especially when one character bites the dust unexpectedly.

In addition, as for the battle question, I pretty much fight every battle I see.  If one battle doesn't give a lot of EXP, it gives plenty of gold, and vice versa.  The first two hours are probably the slowest in the game, since I now know by this point that the Phantasm and Follower are the two most difficult bosses at lower levels.  The Phantasm because it's faster than you for the most part, and the Follower because its Stronger spell heals more HP than you can deal damage with your characters combined.

In addition, there's something that infuriates me.  The HP values of the enemies aren't consistent.  I noticed this when Aguro would suddenly OHKO an enemy that normally takes two hits to kill.  I'm sure the difference is around 10 HP or so, but that difference means walking away from a battle unscathed and suddenly taking serious damage.

Probably the information I want the most is the boss HP.  That way I can go all out when I suspect a boss is near death instead of wasting a turn healing, extending the battle.

As for the Old Cave, this time around, I cleaned out everything up until the 5th level, then never reentered.  This is mostly for equipment, which is very expensive, especially with my limited funds.  I sometimes skirt of them, probably hurting me more in the long run as I have to spend time healing.

I pretty much rest when I enter a town, unless said inn is a tad out of the way.  Most inns aren't the case, so this point is null.

I'm probably going to change the route somewhat, because I feel like an idiot for not realizing this sooner.  You can enter the cave east of Herat anytime you like, thus getting the badly needed Engage Ring (reduces shop prices by 1/4).  I'm probably going to use a segment to get the Might Helmet (oh it helps SO much in survival) and the Engage Ring/Purple Newt.  It drops the prices in Frederia, saving me much cash and headache.

I'm also going to say that some small leveling will be needed before the Phantasm and Follower.  Follower's levels are detailed above.  I tried at 13/13/12, but I only succeeded once out of fourteen tries.  Phantasm I think I tried at 12/11/11, but only succeeded once out of 8.  At 13/12/12, I beat the Phantasm with little trouble.  Those two bosses are probably the most difficult in the run.

DTaeKim

Edit history:

DTaeKim: 2006-02-20 04:28:25 pm

2006-02-20 04:18:13 pm

Quote:

*applauds*

Nice job, DTK. Can't wait to see it.

Are you planning on working on it any more? or is this the final version?

Yeah, since this is on an emulator. I've been playing it as true to the SNES as possible, save for my little SNES save issue. Unfortunately, this will have to wait until I get back from college, since my SNES and game are at home. That isn't for another month, but that also means a month to really refine this run for all of its worth.

Nice to see you here Trebor.

StrangenessDSS

2006-02-20 08:25:26 pm

Sleeping Terror

Quote:

I'm also going to say that some small leveling will be needed before the Phantasm and Follower. Follower's levels are detailed above. I tried at 13/13/12, but I only succeeded once out of fourteen tries. Phantasm I think I tried at 12/11/11, but only succeeded once out of 8. At 13/12/12, I beat the Phantasm with little trouble. Those two bosses are probably the most difficult in the run.

This is segmented, right? Why isn't once out of eight or fourteen good enough? You should only need to level up if it's completely impossible, or if it will take longer.

DTaeKim

Edit history:

DTaeKim: 2006-02-20 09:10:39 pm

2006-02-20 08:46:13 pm

True. It's more of a speed issue for the Phantasm, but for the Follower, it's more of a necessity.

The Follower has the following attacks:

Standard Attack: 30-40 damage to one ally
Jolt: 50-60 damage to one ally
Frost: 30-40 damage to all allies
Grin: Has a chance of confusing an ally
Drowsy: Has a chance of putting all allies to sleep

At a certain point, the Follower adds two attacks to its repitoire, presumebly after I lower its HP below a certain point (not unlike Magus' second form in Chrono Trigger).

Bolt: 50-60 damage to Hero and Aguro, 30 damage to Lufia
Stronger: 90 HP healed to Follower

Stronger is the reason why I decided to level up. It's not uncommon for the Follower to double/triple turn Hero or Aguro. Lufia is the only character who can keep pace with the Follower. As such, there are time where the Follower uses Stronger two to three times, suddenly going from around 200 HP to 480 HP. I don't deal enough damage fast enough to kill the Follower once he enters this phase without sacrificing some characters. Adding one level per character adds about 3-5 damage dealt by weapons and Flash, and also gives me a chance to avoid the double/triple turning.

It seems that SNES9x has a recording function, so I may be able to show how a battle against the Follower goes. I hope this addresses the leveling issue.

True.  It's more of a speed issue for the Phantasm, but for the Follower, it's more of a necessity.

The Follower has the following attacks:

Standard Attack: 30-40 damage to one ally
Jolt: 50-60 damage to one ally
Frost: 30-40 damage to all allies
Grin: Has a chance of confusing an ally
Drowsy: Has a chance of putting all allies to sleep

At a certain point, the Follower adds two attacks to its repitoire, presumebly after I lower its HP below a certain point (not unlike Magus' second form in Chrono Trigger).

Bolt: 50-60 damage to Hero and Aguro, 30 damage to Lufia
[b]Stronger: 90 HP healed to Follower[/b]

Stronger is the reason why I decided to level up.  It's not uncommon for the Follower to double/triple turn Hero or Aguro.  Lufia is the only character who can keep pace with the Follower.  As such, there are time where the Follower uses Stronger two to three times, suddenly going from around 200 HP to 480 HP.  I don't deal enough damage fast enough to kill the Follower once he enters this phase without sacrificing some characters.  Adding one level per character adds about 3-5 damage dealt by weapons and Flash, and also gives me a chance to avoid the double/triple turning.

It seems that SNES9x has a recording function, so I may be able to show how a battle against the Follower goes.  I hope this addresses the leveling issue.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-02-21 04:15:22 am

2006-02-21 04:09:56 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

As for the opened box count, it also includes hidden items. The ones in dressers and bushes and whatnot. That's why it looks so high; I went for most of the items in there.

Aren't most of the items you find in the game not worth picking up, like random Shrieks and Potions? I'm just saying, your inventory shouldn't look anything like a normal playthrough in a speedrun.

Quote:

Stat increasing items are about as good as a level up. Lufia gets all of the Mind Potions, Aguro gets all of the Speed Potions, Hero gets all of the Great Potions, and Jerin gets all of the Spell Potions. Power Potions goes to Hero

Definitely whichever potion does ATK should go to Guy. Hero might actually cast something sometimes instead of attacking. Power does HP and Spell does MP? The HP one should go to whoever dies the most (I can't imagine this is Hero like you have it). MP on Jerin sounds good IIRC. Speed Potions should go on whoever is your best damage dealer. Don't care if Aguro is the slowest; if Lufia does the most damage, you should increase her AGL.

Quote:

This time around, I consumed 10 to 11 Miracles, all but 3 of them against Guard Daos. Bad luck actually had my entire party confused at one point. Everyone soon died except for Aguro, who engineered a comeback by opportune uses of Miracle. I'm still going to pick up as many Miracles as I can, because they save your ass in the boss battles, especially when one character bites the dust unexpectedly.

Maybe use your Miracles more on hard bosses like Follower? If you didn't get bad luck against Guard Daos, you wouldn't have used as many as you did, so that's suboptimal planning.

Quote:

In addition, as for the battle question, I pretty much fight every battle I see. If one battle doesn't give a lot of EXP, it gives plenty of gold, and vice versa.

Some fights are more beneficial than others though. You're saying the difference isn't great enough that Smoke Balls + Foul Water in better locations wouldn't be faster? Are you sure?

Quote:

Probably the information I want the most is the boss HP. That way I can go all out when I suspect a boss is near death instead of wasting a turn healing, extending the battle.

If you really can't find this anywhere, you could always test the next time you go through the game and write down the possible ranges.

Quote:

I pretty much rest when I enter a town, unless said inn is a tad out of the way. Most inns aren't the case, so this point is null.

Well obviously you should rest if and only if you need to.

Quote:

I'm probably going to change the route somewhat, because I feel like an idiot for not realizing this sooner. You can enter the cave east of Herat anytime you like, thus getting the badly needed Engage Ring (reduces shop prices by 1/4). I'm probably going to use a segment to get the Might Helmet (oh it helps SO much in survival) and the Engage Ring/Purple Newt. It drops the prices in Frederia, saving me much cash and headache.

You're not trying to save headache. You're trying to save time. Keep this in mind. The Engage Ring sounds good for if you ever NEED to fight enemies for gold but you're fine in XP. If not, there isn't much of a point.

Quote:

I'm also going to say that some small leveling will be needed before the Phantasm and Follower. Follower's levels are detailed above. I tried at 13/13/12, but I only succeeded once out of fourteen tries. Phantasm I think I tried at 12/11/11, but only succeeded once out of 8. At 13/12/12, I beat the Phantasm with little trouble. Those two bosses are probably the most difficult in the run.

What Strangeness said. ^_^

Quote:

I've been playing it as true to the SNES as possible, save for my little SNES save issue.

If you're not deathly afraid of your dying cart battery giving out on you during your run, maybe you should be optimizing more. Wink

But seriously, if you have to, borrow or even buy another copy. You'll still have money left over. Tongue

Quote:

It seems that SNES9x has a recording function, so I may be able to show how a battle against the Follower goes. I hope this addresses the leveling issue.

Are you going to use the "record AVI" function? Since we both have the rom, recording the input (like a smv) would be a lot more efficient. You could actually share your entire WIP (test run) that way. Since I use ZSNES and don't even have Snes9x on my comp, one of us needs to use the other, but that's not a problem. What version of Snes9x are you using? I've heard ZSNES desyncs less; new versions are here. Make sure your rom is US and good checksum.

Just to get it out of the way now, you are turning the message speed to "fastest" as soon as you can? It sounds silly for me to ask, but I have to make sure.

I have more to say but I'll give it its own post.

[quote]As for the opened box count, it also includes hidden items.  The ones in dressers and bushes and whatnot.  That's why it looks so high; I went for most of the items in there.[/quote]
Aren't most of the items you find in the game not worth picking up, like random Shrieks and Potions? I'm just saying, your inventory shouldn't look anything like a normal playthrough in a speedrun.

[quote]Stat increasing items are about as good as a level up.  Lufia gets all of the Mind Potions, Aguro gets all of the Speed Potions, Hero gets all of the Great Potions, and Jerin gets all of the Spell Potions.  Power Potions goes to Hero[/quote]
Definitely whichever potion does ATK should go to Guy. Hero might actually cast something sometimes instead of attacking. Power does HP and Spell does MP? The HP one should go to whoever dies the most (I can't imagine this is Hero like you have it). MP on Jerin sounds good IIRC. Speed Potions should go on whoever is your best damage dealer. Don't care if Aguro is the slowest; if Lufia does the most damage, you should increase her AGL.

[quote]This time around, I consumed 10 to 11 Miracles, all but 3 of them against Guard Daos.  Bad luck actually had my entire party confused at one point.  Everyone soon died except for Aguro, who engineered a comeback by opportune uses of Miracle.  I'm still going to pick up as many Miracles as I can, because they save your ass in the boss battles, especially when one character bites the dust unexpectedly.[/quote]
Maybe use your Miracles more on hard bosses like Follower? If you didn't get bad luck against Guard Daos, you wouldn't have used as many as you did, so that's suboptimal planning.

[quote]In addition, as for the battle question, I pretty much fight every battle I see.  If one battle doesn't give a lot of EXP, it gives plenty of gold, and vice versa.[/quote]
Some fights are more beneficial than others though. You're saying the difference isn't great enough that Smoke Balls + Foul Water in better locations wouldn't be faster? Are you sure?

[quote]Probably the information I want the most is the boss HP.  That way I can go all out when I suspect a boss is near death instead of wasting a turn healing, extending the battle.[/quote]
If you really can't find this anywhere, you could always test the next time you go through the game and write down the possible ranges.

[quote]I pretty much rest when I enter a town, unless said inn is a tad out of the way.  Most inns aren't the case, so this point is null.[/quote]
Well obviously you should rest if and only if you need to.

[quote]I'm probably going to change the route somewhat, because I feel like an idiot for not realizing this sooner.  You can enter the cave east of Herat anytime you like, thus getting the badly needed Engage Ring (reduces shop prices by 1/4).  I'm probably going to use a segment to get the Might Helmet (oh it helps SO much in survival) and the Engage Ring/Purple Newt.  It drops the prices in Frederia, saving me much cash and headache.[/quote]
You're not trying to save headache. You're trying to save time. Keep this in mind. The Engage Ring sounds good for if you ever NEED to fight enemies for gold but you're fine in XP. If not, there isn't much of a point.

[quote]I'm also going to say that some small leveling will be needed before the Phantasm and Follower.  Follower's levels are detailed above.  I tried at 13/13/12, but I only succeeded once out of fourteen tries.  Phantasm I think I tried at 12/11/11, but only succeeded once out of 8.  At 13/12/12, I beat the Phantasm with little trouble.  Those two bosses are probably the most difficult in the run.[/quote]
What Strangeness said. ^_^

[quote]I've been playing it as true to the SNES as possible, save for my little SNES save issue.[/quote]
If you're not deathly afraid of your dying cart battery giving out on you during your run, maybe you should be optimizing more. ;) But seriously, if you have to, borrow or even buy another copy. You'll still have money left over. :P

[quote]It seems that SNES9x has a recording function, so I may be able to show how a battle against the Follower goes.  I hope this addresses the leveling issue.[/quote]
Are you going to use the "record AVI" function? Since we both have the rom, recording the input (like a smv) would be a lot more efficient. You could actually share your entire WIP (test run) that way. Since I use ZSNES and don't even have Snes9x on my comp, one of us needs to use the other, but that's not a problem. What version of Snes9x are you using? I've heard ZSNES desyncs less; new versions are [url=http://zsnes.ipherswipsite.com/06/]here[/url]. Make sure your rom is US and good checksum.

Just to get it out of the way now, you are turning the message speed to "fastest" as soon as you can? It sounds silly for me to ask, but I have to make sure.

I have more to say but I'll give it its own post.

Enhasa

2006-02-21 04:30:41 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I might have been making too many points before so I will try to limit them here.

First off, I see some statements like explaining why you use segments or are doing it on emulator now. Those aren't negatives, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise about play skill! Do NOT be afraid of making lots of segments or using savestates on the emulator. In fact, I encourage it.

Test runs are not to "test" if you can do it sub7 for SDA or "test" how fast you can run it. They are to test different strategies to see what works the best. If you have a month until you can begin the real run, go crazy and try different things out. They can be tactics for a particular boss or even meta-level strategies for the entire run. Save states and rewind are the single most useful thing ever invented for speedrunners IMHO.

The biggest (not only!) time savers I see are
1) Leveling with other people dead to get Jerin up to 32 faster. Instead of 36/35/33/32, it should be more like 32/29/31/32 or something. As in, find ways to level up Jerin at the expense of others because Mirror is all you need. If it's suicide to level only Jerin, gradually do some leveling with only 3 characters for example. Anything so that Jerin is the first to hit 32. This is KEY. And once you get Mirror, Sweet Water + Smoke Bomb the rest of the way.
2) Please pick up less chests. I don't care if it's in town, if you pick up a meaningless Potion or whatever, that's wasted time, and it all adds up. Your inventory should look closer to empty than to full. If you are wondering "well how the hell am I going to predict what I need," that's what test runs are for. Document. Write down all the items you use and when you use them. Write down the bosses' HP and anything else you find that's useful. When you make any future runs, you can then know exactly what items you need and what you don't.

When you do your SDA submission run, you want it to be something you can be proud of. It should make you ashamed of everything else you've ever submitted. It should be so good that you would not be able to save more than a couple minutes if you did it over again. It should be good enough that without some unlikely newfangled strategy, nobody will be able to come and knock off your run. Selfishly, I would say that it would be good enough that I would not feel any urge to beat it myself, or else I will regret the payment somewhat. Tongue

I was going to post some testing that I did (less for the actual results and more for demonstrating the kind of things I want you to consider), but I will leave that for yet another post since I don't want to clutter this one.

I might have been making too many points before so I will try to limit them here.

First off, I see some statements like explaining why you use segments or are doing it on emulator now. Those aren't negatives, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise about play skill! Do NOT be afraid of making lots of segments or using savestates on the emulator. In fact, I encourage it.

Test runs are not to "test" if you can do it sub7 for SDA or "test" how fast you can run it. They are to test different strategies to see what works the best. If you have a month until you can begin the real run, go crazy and try different things out. They can be tactics for a particular boss or even meta-level strategies for the entire run. Save states and rewind are the single most useful thing ever invented for speedrunners IMHO.

The biggest (not only!) time savers I see are
1) Leveling with other people dead to get Jerin up to 32 faster. Instead of 36/35/33/32, it should be more like 32/29/31/32 or something. As in, find ways to level up Jerin at the expense of others because Mirror is all you need. If it's suicide to level only Jerin, gradually do some leveling with only 3 characters for example. Anything so that Jerin is the first to hit 32. This is KEY. And once you get Mirror, Sweet Water + Smoke Bomb the rest of the way.
2) Please pick up less chests. I don't care if it's in town, if you pick up a meaningless Potion or whatever, that's wasted time, and it all adds up. Your inventory should look closer to empty than to full. If you are wondering "well how the hell am I going to predict what I need," that's what test runs are for. [i]Document[/i]. Write down all the items you use and when you use them. Write down the bosses' HP and anything else you find that's useful. When you make any future runs, you can then know exactly what items you need and what you don't.

When you do your SDA submission run, you want it to be something you can be proud of. It should make you ashamed of everything else you've ever submitted. It should be so good that you would not be able to save more than a couple minutes if you did it over again. It should be good enough that without some unlikely newfangled strategy, nobody will be able to come and knock off your run. Selfishly, I would say that it would be good enough that I would not feel any urge to beat it myself, or else I will regret the payment somewhat. :P

I was going to post some testing that I did (less for the actual results and more for demonstrating the kind of things I want you to consider), but I will leave that for yet another post since I don't want to clutter this one.

DTaeKim

Edit history:

DTaeKim: 2006-02-21 06:28:58 am

2006-02-21 05:01:11 am

No problem. I never had this much help when I ran Pokemon Yellow, though not much optimization was really available then.

As for killing everyone so Jerin can level faster, I really didn't think it made a difference. I mean, I don't think that killing all but Jerin allows Jerin to gain 4x experience than normal. I'll go check right now to see if that is the case.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-02-21 05:14:39 am

2006-02-21 05:10:29 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

During your first run, you posted some early strats and times. This is what you had for Sinistrals. I wanted to see if I could save time off this. Probably not much, since most of it is cutscenes and there aren't any macro level decisions like leveling or items, just a couple different things you can do inside battle. Not much, since most is obvious, but a couple.

Quote:

Sinistrals - Thunder with Selan, Trick with Artea, and attack with Guy and Maxim. They don't last too long, anyway. Finished the introduction and gained control of Hero at 17 minutes.

Anyway, I just did this and got 15 minutes. I had 5-6 random encounters and a problem in running once. I just tried that part again and got 3 encounters with no problems, so I did not save time with luck on my 15. I will go over the Sinistral battles to show you my thought processes.

My first intuition is that instead of Trick, Dread is better since reducing enemy DEF has an immediate effect on all your attackers. My first thought was that one Trick, then Sunder the rest of the fight is best. Every time you Trick, you have to weigh the aggregate increase in damage from your physical attackers for the rest of the fight with the damage you would have dealt by simply using Sunder. But just thinking isn't enough; I ought to actually test it.

I used Thunder with Selan, attack with Maxim and Guy, and 1 Dread with Artea. I killed Gades in 11 actions. Increasing to 2 Dreads and decreasing to 0 both resulted in 12 actions. I then tested Trick instead. Obviously if you are going the Trick route, you ought to use it on Guy (he's slower) and then Maxim. 2 Tricks resulted in 12 actions.

Then I thought about Fake with Selan. It didn't seem likely because the Fake animation takes longer and Selan is the main damage dealer (definitely would be more actions, maybe might be less real time since you would be going "faster" aka less Gades actions), but I tested it to be sure. Indeed, this took 14 actions, and 10-15 seconds slower. So indeed, 1 Dread is best.

Once I established this for Gades, Amon was a cinch to test since his defense behaves similarly to Gades. I did 1 Dread and got 12 actions. Mathematically and intuitively, it would not make sense for any of the other previous strategies to improve to 11. Theoretically, since Amon does more area of effect magic and Gades does more physical attacking, you might want to limit his turns (not just for reducing damage, but because AOE takes more time) with something like Fake. However, this would definitely not overcome 10-15 seconds.

Erim is a different story. Being an RPG, she obviously has ridiculous MGR since she's a woman. Tongue

It is then better for Artea to attack than it is to cast Sunder. Selan's Thunder and attack do comparable damage, especially after Dread. Attacking is faster both to menu select and to animate than Thunder, so it gets the nod. The two choices are 1 Dread and 2 Dread, and otherwise mash attack. They both took 17 actions. As a sanity check, 0 Dread took 19 actions. Erim does quite a bit of damage with magic, so Guy almost died. I used a Miracle (btw, the only item worth using... Ex Arrows and Bombs are even worse than Selan attacking) with Selan since she does the least damage here as anyone does in all 4 fights.

Finally with Daos, 1 Dread got 14 actions and seemed to work well. There was no need to test anything else since there is no way anything else would be 13.

Another benefit with knowing how many hits the Sinistrals take is that if you know for example that Gades dies on Selan's 3rd Thunder every time, once you input that, you can just mash on attack and don't have to spend time selecting Sunder with Artea, for example.

On SDA, there's a run recording FAQ (the technical details) since we are very concerned with that heh, and run submission in the general FAQ. On bisqwit's, in addition to technical details pages, there's also pages on tips to make good TAS's as well as a quality control sticky in the forums. Maybe there should be an actual running FAQ for SDA with generalized tips? The first line would be "RESEARCH!" Tongue

Edit: I don't have the time to scrutinize everything like that (or else I would just do this myself), so I can mostly only give broad suggestions such as "try the Old Cave" or "level less." But hopefully this will let you see the kind of thing I am talking about.

During your first run, you posted some early strats and times. This is what you had for Sinistrals. I wanted to see if I could save time off this. Probably not much, since most of it is cutscenes and there aren't any macro level decisions like leveling or items, just a couple different things you can do inside battle. Not much, since most is obvious, but a couple.

[quote]Sinistrals - Thunder with Selan, Trick with Artea, and attack with Guy and Maxim.  They don't last too long, anyway.  Finished the introduction and gained control of Hero at 17 minutes.[/quote]
Anyway, I just did this and got 15 minutes. I had 5-6 random encounters and a problem in running once. I just tried that part again and got 3 encounters with no problems, so I did not save time with luck on my 15. I will go over the Sinistral battles to show you my thought processes.

My first intuition is that instead of Trick, Dread is better since reducing enemy DEF has an immediate effect on all your attackers. My first thought was that one Trick, then Sunder the rest of the fight is best. Every time you Trick, you have to weigh the aggregate increase in damage from your physical attackers for the rest of the fight with the damage you would have dealt by simply using Sunder. But just thinking isn't enough; I ought to actually test it.

I used Thunder with Selan, attack with Maxim and Guy, and 1 Dread with Artea. I killed Gades in 11 actions. Increasing to 2 Dreads and decreasing to 0 both resulted in 12 actions. I then tested Trick instead. Obviously if you are going the Trick route, you ought to use it on Guy (he's slower) and then Maxim. 2 Tricks resulted in 12 actions.

Then I thought about Fake with Selan. It didn't seem likely because the Fake animation takes longer and Selan is the main damage dealer (definitely would be more actions, [i]maybe[/i] might be less real time since you would be going "faster" aka less Gades actions), but I tested it to be sure. Indeed, this took 14 actions, and 10-15 seconds slower. So indeed, 1 Dread is best.

Once I established this for Gades, Amon was a cinch to test since his defense behaves similarly to Gades. I did 1 Dread and got 12 actions. Mathematically and intuitively, it would not make sense for any of the other previous strategies to improve to 11. Theoretically, since Amon does more area of effect magic and Gades does more physical attacking, you might want to limit his turns (not just for reducing damage, but because AOE takes more [i]time[/i]) with something like Fake. However, this would definitely not overcome 10-15 seconds.

Erim is a different story. Being an RPG, she obviously has ridiculous MGR [i]since she's a woman[/i]. :P It is then better for Artea to attack than it is to cast Sunder. Selan's Thunder and attack do comparable damage, especially after Dread. Attacking is faster both to menu select and to animate than Thunder, so it gets the nod. The two choices are 1 Dread and 2 Dread, and otherwise mash attack. They both took 17 actions. As a sanity check, 0 Dread took 19 actions. Erim does quite a bit of damage with magic, so Guy almost died. I used a Miracle (btw, the only item worth using... Ex Arrows and Bombs are even worse than Selan attacking) with Selan since she does the least damage here as anyone does in all 4 fights.

Finally with Daos, 1 Dread got 14 actions and seemed to work well. There was no need to test anything else since there is no way anything else would be 13.

Another benefit with knowing how many hits the Sinistrals take is that if you know for example that Gades dies on Selan's 3rd Thunder every time, once you input that, you can just mash on attack and don't have to spend time selecting Sunder with Artea, for example.

On SDA, there's a run recording FAQ (the technical details) since we are very concerned with that heh, and run submission in the general FAQ. On bisqwit's, in addition to technical details pages, there's also pages on tips to make good TAS's as well as a quality control sticky in the forums. Maybe there should be an actual running FAQ for SDA with generalized tips? The first line would be "RESEARCH!" :P

Edit: I don't have the time to scrutinize everything like that (or else I would just do this myself), so I can mostly only give broad suggestions such as "try the Old Cave" or "level less." But hopefully this will let you see the kind of thing I am talking about.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-02-21 05:21:09 am

2006-02-21 05:11:20 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

As for killing everyone so Jerin can level faster, I really didn't think it made a difference. I mean, I don't think that killing all but Jerin allows Jerin to gain 4x experience than normal. I'll go check right now to see if that is the case.

It does in almost every RPG I've seen. Not 100% sure here though, but it's a genre convention.

Edit: Do you know about things like save states (ZSNES also has fast forward and rewind and mappable turbo buttons)? Testing on emulator is like rapid prototyping. Wink

You can use fast forward + turbo A to basically skip all the cutscenes. Although, if you want your time to be anywhere near accurate (and in your case, you do), you need to make sure not to hold on to fast forward too long and waste time that way. If you do, you can just hit rewind a couple times to resume normal speed correctly.

DTaeKim

Edit history:

DTaeKim: 2006-02-22 07:02:30 pm

2006-02-21 06:29:15 am

Just as I thought. It makes no difference if people are dead or not; the same experience is distributed throughout.

I'll also detail my most recent run's inventory. My notes on them will follow

Revive - 8 (all found)
Power Gourd - 27 (bought in anticipation of final 4 boss battles)
Sweet Water - 28 (bought 70 in Bakku)
Hi Magic - 15 (all found)
Poison Pin - 2 (won in battle)
Hi Potion - 12 (all bought in anticipation of Water Ghost)
Miracle - 20
Smoke Ball - 40 (bought 60 in Bakku)
Ex Potion - 35 (in anticipation of Gades; I ended up using around 18 )
Foul Water - 1 (probably will use next time before Follower)
Mind Gourd - 6 (bought in Bakku in anticipation of Guardian; next time, 4 will do)
Ex Magic - 3 (2 were used)
Stone Cure - 7 (bought in Odel in anticipation of petrification)
Gloom Arrow - 5 (found, probably should ditch next time)
Gloom Voice - 2 (found, probably should ditch next time)
Straw Doll - 2 (won in battle)
Mystery Pin - 1 (found, actually used against Daos; probably should buy 4 in anticipation of Daos (Amnesia causes paralysis and is a total run killer)
Dragon Arrow - 1 (found, should ditch)
HiPower Ring - 1 (found, used, ditched in favor of White Ring in Glasdar Cave)
Green Ring - 1 (found, used, ditched in favor of Black Ring)
Antidote - 1 (found in Glasdar Tower; WTF?)
Engage Ring - 1 (reduces prices of items in stores by 1/4)

dinobotmaximized's FAQ helped tremendously in helping me figure out which items to pick up. The ones I did pick up were mostly equipment and stat-increasing items. As you can see, I sold most of the equipment.

I should explain my stat-increasing choices. Early in the game, the greatest difficulty lies in the fact that I get double/triple turned by bosses. Lufia is the only character that does not get double/triple turned. Hero is the closest character that gets an AGL close enough to avoid that, so he gets the AGL potions to compensate for that. Aguro gets the Sonic Ring instead. STR potions go to Hero to help his damage output, since it's lower than Aguro's. Power Potions go to Hero as I said earlier, mainly to help his survival against Gades' Destroy and allow him to take more hits as a body shield.

As for the Engage Ring, it probably is worth the time. For starters, it is on the way to the Purple Newt. Getting it takes about 30 seconds. In addition, I calculated my armor expenses in Frederia.

Without Engage Ring: 124700 GOLD
With Engage Ring: 93525 GOLD

Weapons can be found, which is why I didn't include them in the calcuations. Needless to say, it pays off immediately.

Just as I thought.  It makes no difference if people are dead or not; the same experience is distributed throughout.

I'll also detail my most recent run's inventory.  My notes on them will follow

Revive - 8 (all found)
Power Gourd - 27 (bought in anticipation of final 4 boss battles)
Sweet Water - 28 (bought 70 in Bakku)
Hi Magic - 15 (all found)
Poison Pin - 2 (won in battle)
Hi Potion - 12 (all bought in anticipation of Water Ghost)
Miracle - 20
Smoke Ball - 40 (bought 60 in Bakku)
Ex Potion - 35 (in anticipation of Gades; I ended up using around 18 )
Foul Water - 1 (probably will use next time before Follower)
Mind Gourd - 6 (bought in Bakku in anticipation of Guardian; next time, 4 will do)
Ex Magic - 3 (2 were used)
Stone Cure - 7 (bought in Odel in anticipation of petrification)
Gloom Arrow - 5 (found, probably should ditch next time)
Gloom Voice - 2 (found, probably should ditch next time)
Straw Doll - 2 (won in battle)
Mystery Pin - 1 (found, actually used against Daos; probably should buy 4 in anticipation of Daos (Amnesia causes paralysis and is a total run killer)
Dragon Arrow - 1 (found, should ditch)
HiPower Ring - 1 (found, used, ditched in favor of White Ring in Glasdar Cave)
Green Ring - 1 (found, used, ditched in favor of Black Ring)
Antidote - 1 (found in Glasdar Tower; WTF?)
Engage Ring - 1 (reduces prices of items in stores by 1/4)

dinobotmaximized's FAQ helped tremendously in helping me figure out which items to pick up.  The ones I did pick up were mostly equipment and stat-increasing items.  As you can see, I sold most of the equipment.

I should explain my stat-increasing choices.  Early in the game, the greatest difficulty lies in the fact that I get double/triple turned by bosses.  Lufia is the only character that does not get double/triple turned.  Hero is the closest character that gets an AGL close enough to avoid that, so he gets the AGL potions to compensate for that.  Aguro gets the Sonic Ring instead.  STR potions go to Hero to help his damage output, since it's lower than Aguro's.  Power Potions go to Hero as I said earlier, mainly to help his survival against Gades' Destroy and allow him to take more hits as a body shield.

As for the Engage Ring, it probably is worth the time.  For starters, it is on the way to the Purple Newt.  Getting it takes about 30 seconds.  In addition, I calculated my armor expenses in Frederia.

Without Engage Ring: 124700 GOLD
With Engage Ring: 93525 GOLD

Weapons can be found, which is why I didn't include them in the calcuations.  Needless to say, it pays off immediately.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-02-21 04:56:28 pm

2006-02-21 04:48:44 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Just as I thought. It makes no difference if people are dead or not; the same experience is distributed throughout.

Wow, I tested because what you said implied "the same experience is distributed throughout less people," but you're right. You really do just get shafted if you end a fight dead.

I also thought dinobotmaximized had the best FAQ.

Some of your comments are like "bought for the last 4 battles." Are you telling me you couldn't get any use out of things like Power Gourds much earlier? You can start getting Gourds for example in Lorbenia (roughly 16% through).

Quote:

I should explain my stat-increasing choices. Early in the game, the greatest difficulty lies in the fact that I get double/triple turned by bosses. Lufia is the only character that does not get double/triple turned. Hero is the closest character that gets an AGL close enough to avoid that, so he gets the AGL potions to compensate for that. Aguro gets the Sonic Ring instead. STR potions go to Hero to help his damage output, since it's lower than Aguro's. Power Potions go to Hero as I said earlier, mainly to help his survival against Gades' Destroy and allow him to take more hits as a body shield.

You're making it sound like the game operates on turns, when AFAIK it's more like FF10 or ATB system where you have all the time you need to input. Are you saying that Hero would normally be double turned consistently and that after some Speed Potions he gets single turned consistently vs the same boss? I find this hard to believe but if it's true, then definitely do this. If not, giving them to your highest damage dealer seems best.

For STR Potions, the only reason why you would want to give them to Hero is if it somehow makes a difference in the number of hits it takes to kill regular enemies (i.e. it goes from 3 solo hits to 2). For fighting bosses, because there is no overkill and all the damage is going in the same place anyway, you want to pump whoever has the most likelihood of attacking. As an aside, even if Hero didn't have magic though, you still don't want to even out your damage, and I don't know why people don't get this. Let's say you need one of them to use an item? That's wasted damage right there. It's like all those people who still think you should give your white mage Masamune in FF1. Sad

Now, if Hero's speed is appreciably higher, then you might want to give STR Potions to him. But it doesn't sound that way since it sounds like you are trying to equalize Aguro's speed with rings.

I don't know another way to explain this. Your dead counts were 4/12/7/7 for Hero/Lufia/Aguro/Jerin. This means you are pumping the HP of the character least likely to die. You would think that you would either give HP Potions to whoever is most likely to die, or to whoever's death would hurt you the most. Lufia and Jerin sound more like good choices.

Quote:

As for the Engage Ring, it probably is worth the time. For starters, it is on the way to the Purple Newt. Getting it takes about 30 seconds. In addition, I calculated my armor expenses in Frederia.

Without Engage Ring: 124700 GOLD
With Engage Ring: 93525 GOLD

Weapons can be found, which is why I didn't include them in the calcuations. Needless to say, it pays off immediately.

You know what I'm going to say about the Engage Ring right? You should get it and use it to fight less enemies, i.e. only fight the ones that give good XP instead of the "some are good for XP, some are good for Gold" like you said earlier.

The other major benefit is being able to pick up a LOT less stuff that you sell for Gold. Another thing you could keep track of is how much Gold you have at your save points. If you are getting the Engage Ring, then all else equal, you will have way too much.

How early in the game exactly can you get the Engage Ring? You can just use dinobot's numbering system, like 54. It doesn't seem debatable to get. It seems like it would save LOTS of time.

Edit: Another huge time saver I see is, didn't you say you killed a couple cores? If it's possible, heavily segment and save and reload to core abuse. You've watched the FF3/6 run? More like that.

[quote]Just as I thought.  It makes no difference if people are dead or not; the same experience is distributed throughout.[/quote]
Wow, I tested because what you said implied "the same experience is distributed throughout [i]less people[/i]," but you're right. You really do just get shafted if you end a fight dead.

I also thought dinobotmaximized had the best FAQ.

Some of your comments are like "bought for the last 4 battles." Are you telling me you couldn't get any use out of things like Power Gourds much earlier? You can start getting Gourds for example in Lorbenia (roughly 16% through).

[quote]I should explain my stat-increasing choices.  Early in the game, the greatest difficulty lies in the fact that I get double/triple turned by bosses.  Lufia is the only character that does not get double/triple turned.  Hero is the closest character that gets an AGL close enough to avoid that, so he gets the AGL potions to compensate for that.  Aguro gets the Sonic Ring instead.  STR potions go to Hero to help his damage output, since it's lower than Aguro's.  Power Potions go to Hero as I said earlier, mainly to help his survival against Gades' Destroy and allow him to take more hits as a body shield.[/quote]
You're making it sound like the game operates on turns, when AFAIK it's more like FF10 or ATB system where you have all the time you need to input. Are you saying that Hero would normally be double turned consistently and that after some Speed Potions he gets single turned consistently vs the same boss? I find this hard to believe but if it's true, then definitely do this. If not, giving them to your highest damage dealer seems best.

For STR Potions, the only reason why you would want to give them to Hero is if it somehow makes a difference in the number of hits it takes to kill regular enemies (i.e. it goes from 3 solo hits to 2). For fighting bosses, because there is no overkill and all the damage is going in the same place anyway, you want to pump whoever has the most likelihood of attacking. As an aside, [i]even if[/i] Hero didn't have magic though, you [i]still[/i] don't want to even out your damage, and I don't know why people don't get this. Let's say you need one of them to use an item? That's wasted damage right there. It's like all those people who still think you should give your white mage Masamune in FF1. :( Now, if Hero's speed is appreciably higher, then you might want to give STR Potions to him. But it doesn't sound that way since it sounds like you are trying to equalize Aguro's speed with rings.

I don't know another way to explain this. Your dead counts were 4/12/7/7 for Hero/Lufia/Aguro/Jerin. This means you are pumping the HP of the character [i]least[/i] likely to die. You would think that you would either give HP Potions to whoever is most likely to die, or to whoever's death would hurt you the most. Lufia and Jerin sound more like good choices.

[quote]As for the Engage Ring, it probably is worth the time.  For starters, it is on the way to the Purple Newt.  Getting it takes about 30 seconds.  In addition, I calculated my armor expenses in Frederia.

Without Engage Ring: 124700 GOLD
With Engage Ring: 93525 GOLD

Weapons can be found, which is why I didn't include them in the calcuations.  Needless to say, it pays off immediately.[/quote]
You know what I'm going to say about the Engage Ring right? You should get it and use it to fight less enemies, i.e. only fight the ones that give good XP instead of the "some are good for XP, some are good for Gold" like you said earlier.

The other major benefit is being able to pick up a LOT less stuff that you sell for Gold. Another thing you could keep track of is how much Gold you have at your save points. If you are getting the Engage Ring, then all else equal, you will have way too much.

How early in the game exactly can you get the Engage Ring? You can just use dinobot's numbering system, like 54. It doesn't seem debatable to get. It seems like it would save LOTS of time.

Edit: Another huge time saver I see is, didn't you say you killed a couple cores? If it's possible, heavily segment and save and reload to core abuse. You've watched the FF3/6 run? More like that.

DTaeKim

2006-02-21 05:33:28 pm

[quote]
Some of your comments are like "bought for the last 4 battles." Are you telling me you couldn't get any use out of things like Power Gourds much earlier? You can start getting Gourds for example in Lorbenia (roughly 16% through).

I found them in the hidden chests. Those were the ones I used on the earlier boss battles. Early in the game, Power Gourds are pricy, at 100 GOLD per Gourd. That's a bit too pricy, especially when I need the extra offense from the weapons. GOLD management is more important in the early run; I amended my walkthrough to raid the Old Cave for goodies as soon as I am of the adequate level. I clean out the 3rd and 4th level as soon as I can.

Quote:

You're making it sound like the game operates on turns, when AFAIK it's more like FF10 or ATB system where you have all the time you need to input. Are you saying that Hero would normally be double turned consistently and that after some Speed Potions he gets single turned consistently vs the same boss? I find this hard to believe but if it's true, then definitely do this. If not, giving them to your highest damage dealer seems best.

Yes. In essence, Hero would get only one action against the Follower, who usually performs two actions in the same span. Aguro is worse, who sometimes doesn't get an action in until the Follower gets three actions in between. Speed Potions reduce that probability. Earlier, I did mention that AGL is probably one of the most important stats to build upon. In addition, while it may seem like a good idea to give them to Lufia, she already gets an action per enemy action. Besides, by the time of the Alumina quest, Hero and Aguro's damage output surpasses Lufia's. I prefer to use them on Hero, just so he can avoid the double-turn. In that aspect, perhaps I was incorrect in using the term "double-turn."

Quote:

For STR Potions, the only reason why you would want to give them to Hero is if it somehow makes a difference in the number of hits it takes to kill regular enemies (i.e. it goes from 3 solo hits to 2). For fighting bosses, because there is no overkill and all the damage is going in the same place anyway, you want to pump whoever has the most likelihood of attacking. As an aside, even if Hero didn't have magic though, you still don't want to even out your damage, and I don't know why people don't get this. Let's say you need one of them to use an item? That's wasted damage right there. It's like all those people who still think you should give your white mage Masamune in FF1. Sad

Now, if Hero's speed is appreciably higher, then you might want to give STR Potions to him. But it doesn't sound that way since it sounds like you are trying to equalize Aguro's speed with rings.

STR = base ATTACK

Simple as that. You can check by unequipping everything that increases your ATTACK and STR.

Hero - Around 67 damage against a Big Newt.
Aguro - Around 88 damage against a Big Newt.

Hero's STR - 132
Aguro's STR - 154

I performed more tests, but it doesn't seem to change my conclusion: the difference in ATTACK is about equal to the difference in HP damage.

In case you're curious, here are the base AGL ratings for Hero, Aguro, and Lufia.

Hero - 65 AGL
Lufia - 71 AGL
Aguro - 54 AGL
Jerin - 76 AGL

I gave Hero the AGL potions. At this AGL rating, he usually gets one action per enemy action, almost on par with Lufia, the 2nd fastest character. Aguro, on the other hand, gets one action per two enemy actions about half the time.

When I factor in the usual accessory equips, it gets an even bigger difference, since Aguro's accessories are rather lacking in AGL boosts save for the Sonic Ring (which gest replaced by the Yellow Ring, HiPower Ring, and White Ring in order). It grants +5 AGL, which helps his situation somewhat. On the other hand, Hero gets the Blue Ring, and later, the Purple Ring and Wave Ring. They increase his AGL by 0, 2, and 8. I could give Aguro the AGL potions to make up the difference, though I really need Hero's healing spells more. Potions heal LESS than Strong (for some reason), so Strong is preferable as the healing method of choice against bosses. As such, I want Hero to get more turns than Aguro, and thus gets my nod as the Speed Potion recipient.

Quote:

I don't know another way to explain this. Your dead counts were 4/12/7/7 for Hero/Lufia/Aguro/Jerin. This means you are pumping the HP of the character least likely to die. You would think that you would either give HP Potions to whoever is most likely to die, or to whoever's death would hurt you the most. Lufia and Jerin sound more like good choices.

It makes little difference for Lufia. When enemies deal about 60 to 80 damage when Lufia has around 160 HP, she gets killed in 3 hits anyway, regardless. I'm going to need about 80 more HP to survive a fourth hit, which I definitely don't have that many Power Potions. Jerin's not as bad, but I would prefer Hero to get the Power Potions since he's in the front and is more prone to attacks. Damage at most is around 40, where Power Potions make a bigger difference in survival.

Quote:

You know what I'm going to say about the Engage Ring right? You should get it and use it to fight less enemies, i.e. only fight the ones that give good XP instead of the "some are good for XP, some are good for Gold" like you said earlier.

The other major benefit is being able to pick up a LOT less stuff that you sell for Gold. Another thing you could keep track of is how much Gold you have at your save points. If you are getting the Engage Ring, then all else equal, you will have way too much.

How early in the game exactly can you get the Engage Ring? You can just use dinobot's numbering system, like 54. It doesn't seem debatable to get. It seems like it would save LOTS of time.

The earliest time I get the Engage Ring is as soon as I have the ship. You basically sail to Herat and follow the path to the cave. I was planning on making a segment dedicated to accessing Bakku, Marse, Epro, and Herat, getting the Might Helmet, and the Engage Ring. I usually purchase the Carbo equipment right before I fight the Pirates, since I think I have enough money stockpiled for that.

As for whether or not the sidequest to get the Might Helmet is worth it, check out the difference between the Might Helmet and the Glass Cap, Jerin's helm before the Might Helmet.

Might Helmet - 35 DFP, 19 MGR, 24 INT
Glass Cap - 4 DFP

At this point in the game, Jerin's defense equals Hero's and Aguro's, give or take a few points. In addition, it save sme a lot of GOLD, and also makes Jerin's MGR more equal to Lufia's than Hero's. Since only a select few equips increase MGR, it's one of the more important stats to consider. Besides, I raid the Tower of Light for its other equipment and money factor (Sea Ring, Undead Ring, and four other equips).

[quote]
Some of your comments are like "bought for the last 4 battles." Are you telling me you couldn't get any use out of things like Power Gourds much earlier? You can start getting Gourds for example in Lorbenia (roughly 16% through).

I found them in the hidden chests.  Those were the ones I used on the earlier boss battles.  Early in the game, Power Gourds are pricy, at 100 GOLD per Gourd.  That's a bit too pricy, especially when I need the extra offense from the weapons.  GOLD management is more important in the early run; I amended my walkthrough to raid the Old Cave for goodies as soon as I am of the adequate level.  I clean out the 3rd and 4th level as soon as I can.

[quote]You're making it sound like the game operates on turns, when AFAIK it's more like FF10 or ATB system where you have all the time you need to input. Are you saying that Hero would normally be double turned consistently and that after some Speed Potions he gets single turned consistently vs the same boss? I find this hard to believe but if it's true, then definitely do this. If not, giving them to your highest damage dealer seems best.[/quote]

Yes.  In essence, Hero would get only one action against the Follower, who usually performs two actions in the same span.  Aguro is worse, who sometimes doesn't get an action in until the Follower gets three actions in between.  Speed Potions reduce that probability.  Earlier, I did mention that AGL is probably one of the most important stats to build upon.  In addition, while it may seem like a good idea to give them to Lufia, she already gets an action per enemy action.  Besides, by the time of the Alumina quest, Hero and Aguro's damage output surpasses Lufia's.  I prefer to use them on Hero, just so he can avoid the double-turn.  In that aspect, perhaps I was incorrect in using the term "double-turn."

[quote]For STR Potions, the only reason why you would want to give them to Hero is if it somehow makes a difference in the number of hits it takes to kill regular enemies (i.e. it goes from 3 solo hits to 2). For fighting bosses, because there is no overkill and all the damage is going in the same place anyway, you want to pump whoever has the most likelihood of attacking. As an aside, [i]even if[/i] Hero didn't have magic though, you [i]still[/i] don't want to even out your damage, and I don't know why people don't get this. Let's say you need one of them to use an item? That's wasted damage right there. It's like all those people who still think you should give your white mage Masamune in FF1. :( Now, if Hero's speed is appreciably higher, then you might want to give STR Potions to him. But it doesn't sound that way since it sounds like you are trying to equalize Aguro's speed with rings.[/quote]

STR = base ATTACK

Simple as that.  You can check by unequipping everything that increases your ATTACK and STR.

Hero - Around 67 damage against a Big Newt.
Aguro - Around 88 damage against a Big Newt.

Hero's STR - 132
Aguro's STR - 154

I performed more tests, but it doesn't seem to change my conclusion: the difference in ATTACK is about equal to the difference in HP damage.

In case you're curious, here are the base AGL ratings for Hero, Aguro, and Lufia.

Hero - 65 AGL
Lufia - 71 AGL
Aguro - 54 AGL
Jerin - 76 AGL

I gave Hero the AGL potions.  At this AGL rating, he usually gets one action per enemy action, almost on par with Lufia, the 2nd fastest character.  Aguro, on the other hand, gets one action per two enemy actions about half the time.

When I factor in the usual accessory equips, it gets an even bigger difference, since Aguro's accessories are rather lacking in AGL boosts save for the Sonic Ring (which gest replaced by the Yellow Ring, HiPower Ring, and White Ring in order).  It grants +5 AGL, which helps his situation somewhat.  On the other hand, Hero gets the Blue Ring, and later, the Purple Ring and Wave Ring.  They increase his AGL by 0, 2, and 8.  I could give Aguro the AGL potions to make up the difference, though I really need Hero's healing spells more.  Potions heal LESS than Strong (for some reason), so Strong is preferable as the healing method of choice against bosses.  As such, I want Hero to get more turns than Aguro, and thus gets my nod as the Speed Potion recipient.

[quote]I don't know another way to explain this. Your dead counts were 4/12/7/7 for Hero/Lufia/Aguro/Jerin. This means you are pumping the HP of the character [i]least[/i] likely to die. You would think that you would either give HP Potions to whoever is most likely to die, or to whoever's death would hurt you the most. Lufia and Jerin sound more like good choices.[/quote]

It makes little difference for Lufia.  When enemies deal about 60 to 80 damage when Lufia has around 160 HP, she gets killed in 3 hits anyway, regardless.  I'm going to need about 80 more HP to survive a fourth hit, which I definitely don't have that many Power Potions.  Jerin's not as bad, but I would prefer Hero to get the Power Potions since he's in the front and is more prone to attacks.  Damage at most is around 40, where Power Potions make a bigger difference in survival.

[quote]You know what I'm going to say about the Engage Ring right? You should get it and use it to fight less enemies, i.e. only fight the ones that give good XP instead of the "some are good for XP, some are good for Gold" like you said earlier.

The other major benefit is being able to pick up a LOT less stuff that you sell for Gold. Another thing you could keep track of is how much Gold you have at your save points. If you are getting the Engage Ring, then all else equal, you will have way too much.

How early in the game exactly can you get the Engage Ring? You can just use dinobot's numbering system, like 54. It doesn't seem debatable to get. It seems like it would save LOTS of time.[/quote]

The earliest time I get the Engage Ring is as soon as I have the ship.  You basically sail to Herat and follow the path to the cave.  I was planning on making a segment dedicated to accessing Bakku, Marse, Epro, and Herat, getting the Might Helmet, and the Engage Ring.  I usually purchase the Carbo equipment right before I fight the Pirates, since I think I have enough money stockpiled for that.

As for whether or not the sidequest to get the Might Helmet is worth it, check out the difference between the Might Helmet and the Glass Cap, Jerin's helm before the Might Helmet.

Might Helmet  - 35 DFP, 19 MGR, 24 INT
Glass Cap - 4 DFP

At this point in the game, Jerin's defense equals Hero's and Aguro's, give or take a few points.  In addition, it save sme a lot of GOLD, and also makes Jerin's MGR more equal to Lufia's than Hero's.  Since only a select few equips increase MGR, it's one of the more important stats to consider.  Besides, I raid the Tower of Light for its other equipment and money factor (Sea Ring, Undead Ring, and four other equips).

Enhasa

2006-02-21 10:39:47 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Speed Potions reduce that probability.

The thing though is, is it random (aka with a probability) or is it strictly formulaic, just hidden? Oversimplified numberical example: if A's wait time is 3 and B's is 6, B would be double turned every time: AABAAB... If B's wait time was reduced to 5, then it would look like ABAABAAB... The pattern would be very hard to notice in battle, and thus it would look random when it isn't.

Back to the point at hand, since you might need some flexibility for Hero for some healing in between consecutive boss turns, I agree with you on this one. It also helps that you said he starts doing more damage at points, Lufia doesn't do anything vs Sinistrals, and also increasing AGL by a static amount (1) gives more benefit to someone with less AGL. i.e. 10->11 is 10% increase and 20->21 is 5%.

What I was saying though is, this isn't supposed to be some kind of a Hero vs Lufia argument or anything. I just said, your first option should generally be to increase the AGL of your highest damage dealer. This is mathematically sound. When you said that was Lufia, that is why I suggested her.

About the STR Potions though. You said it yourself later: you need Hero for healing sometimes. Why would you put STR Potions on him instead of Aguro then? Every time a character with STR Potions doesn't attack, you are wasting that increase. Aguro has the lowest chance of not attacking.

Everyone can basically equip all rings though btw right?

Quote:

It makes little difference for Lufia. When enemies deal about 60 to 80 damage when Lufia has around 160 HP, she gets killed in 3 hits anyway, regardless. I'm going to need about 80 more HP to survive a fourth hit, which I definitely don't have that many Power Potions. Jerin's not as bad, but I would prefer Hero to get the Power Potions since he's in the front and is more prone to attacks. Damage at most is around 40, where Power Potions make a bigger difference in survival.

Yeah, I said that wrong. I meant "give HP Potions to whoever it would decrease the probability of dying the most," which is not exactly the same thing.

Quote:

I was planning on making a segment dedicated to accessing Bakku, Marse, Epro, and Herat, getting the Might Helmet, and the Engage Ring.

Feel free to break it up as much as you want though. When do you your actual run at least (I would say while practicing on emulator too), do NOT accept any bad luck. If you get bad luck, reset. That's what the segments are for.

You don't need to convince me about the Might Helm sequence breaking btw. Anyway, why is this good? Because it saves you XP and Gold. With EQ breaks as soon as a whole bunch of new locations open up (like with new vehicles like ship or airship) and the Engage Ring, you can save a lot of money this way. And win bosses at lower levels than you would otherwise. I should have remembered to ask you where you can go once you get the ship/sub/airship in the first place.

Basically if you are playing near optimally (can you do the intro in 15 mins btw?), the biggest time saver in RPG running is simply to do less stuff. You can choose not to fight the guys that give better Gold than XP, and you can avoid having to pick up a lot of junk to sell.

Anyway, so the biggest improvements I can see are early stuff like Engage Ring, which will allow for avoiding fights for Gold, and possibly less fights for XP since you can survive better. It also lets you pick up less chests (which you should be doing anyway) since you won't need to sell as many things for Gold. As far as I can tell, you shouldn't be picking up anything that you could just buy for example.

[quote]Speed Potions reduce that probability.[/quote]
The thing though is, is it random (aka with a probability) or is it strictly formulaic, just hidden? Oversimplified numberical example: if A's wait time is 3 and B's is 6, B would be double turned every time: AABAAB... If B's wait time was reduced to 5, then it would look like ABAABAAB... The pattern would be very hard to notice in battle, and thus it would look random when it isn't.

Back to the point at hand, since you might need some flexibility for Hero for some healing in between consecutive boss turns, I agree with you on this one. It also helps that you said he starts doing more damage at points, Lufia doesn't do anything vs Sinistrals, and also increasing AGL by a static amount (1) gives more benefit to someone with less AGL. i.e. 10->11 is 10% increase and 20->21 is 5%.

What I was saying though is, this isn't supposed to be some kind of a Hero vs Lufia argument or anything. I just said, your first option should generally be to increase the AGL of your highest damage dealer. This is mathematically sound. When you said that was Lufia, that is why I suggested her.

About the STR Potions though. You said it yourself later: you need Hero for healing sometimes. Why would you put STR Potions on him instead of Aguro then? Every time a character with STR Potions doesn't attack, you are wasting that increase. Aguro has the lowest chance of not attacking.

Everyone can basically equip all rings though btw right?

[quote]It makes little difference for Lufia.  When enemies deal about 60 to 80 damage when Lufia has around 160 HP, she gets killed in 3 hits anyway, regardless.  I'm going to need about 80 more HP to survive a fourth hit, which I definitely don't have that many Power Potions.  Jerin's not as bad, but I would prefer Hero to get the Power Potions since he's in the front and is more prone to attacks.  Damage at most is around 40, where Power Potions make a bigger difference in survival.[/quote]
Yeah, I said that wrong. I meant "give HP Potions to whoever it would decrease the probability of dying the most," which is not exactly the same thing.

[quote]I was planning on making a segment dedicated to accessing Bakku, Marse, Epro, and Herat, getting the Might Helmet, and the Engage Ring.[/quote]
Feel free to break it up as much as you want though. When do you your actual run at least (I would say while practicing on emulator too), do NOT accept any bad luck. If you get bad luck, reset. That's what the segments are for.

You don't need to convince me about the Might Helm sequence breaking btw. Anyway, why is this good? Because it saves you XP and Gold. With EQ breaks as soon as a whole bunch of new locations open up (like with new vehicles like ship or airship) and the Engage Ring, you can save a lot of money this way. And win bosses at lower levels than you would otherwise. I should have remembered to ask you where you can go once you get the ship/sub/airship in the first place.

Basically if you are playing near optimally (can you do the intro in 15 mins btw?), the biggest time saver in RPG running is simply to do less stuff. You can choose not to fight the guys that give better Gold than XP, and you can avoid having to pick up a lot of junk to sell.

Anyway, so the biggest improvements I can see are early stuff like Engage Ring, which will allow for avoiding fights for Gold, and possibly less fights for XP since you can survive better. It also lets you pick up less chests (which you should be doing anyway) since you won't need to sell as many things for Gold. As far as I can tell, you shouldn't be picking up anything that you could just buy for example.

DTaeKim

Edit history:

DTaeKim: 2006-02-22 01:57:06 am

2006-02-22 01:22:56 am

I haven't been able to get the 15 minute introduction. :-/

Right now, I'm taking my time with Try Again mode, mainly to see the exact stats on bosses.

This weekend, I aim to get some movies out of my attempt, so you can seriously critique them. I think I should also get the help of the two main Lufia forums on the internet, Lufia.net and Forfeit Island.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-02-22 04:15:00 am

2006-02-22 03:47:27 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

You won't fucking believe this, but I just did it again to see how reasonable 15 was and got 13 minutes now actually. I didn't have to heal during battle this time, but I used Maxim's Champion before Erim this time. Are you using the 1 Dread strategy? And make sure you set the message speed to "fast" ASAP.

Another thing I forgot to say is, you need to menu manipulate like a madman while you're running. It really adds up. In Dragondarch's posted SO3 run, he actually goes into the menu for over a minute at one point. For great menu work, watch the FE7 run to see what I'm talking about. Lufia 1 is very hard to play fast in battles because you're usually not exactly sure whose turn will be next, but if you know your strategy completely, that helps.

OMG I had no idea Forfeit Island was still alive! Lufia.net I'd never seen before. It looks completely unprofessional and made by some kid, but that's part of the charm! A good idea if you're getting them to help is to link them here and tell them they don't need to sign up to post.

Edit: Just to have a third, final attempt, I tried again and got 12 minutes this time! Things didn't even seem to go optimally; regular enemies got to hit me one fight because I couldn't run away well, and I had a good bit of encounters. That confused me since I expected the time when I looked to be about 14. So I wondered where the party stops, so I did it again after that and got 12 again. It went very similar to the previous 12; I got hit by regular enemies and had to use Champion in between battles.

You might be able to do 11 (and I would expect a TAS to at least do 11) because I was able to dink around a lot before the timer changed to 13. However, 12 seems consistent enough. One thing I did differently was attack with Artea instead of using Sunder because after Dread, it is almost as good. The benefit is that I don't have to go through the menu for Sunder, and since Selan is the only person who isn't attacking, you can pretty much mash on A when you know she isn't coming up.

So my strategy was Maxim and Guy attack all the time, Artea always use 1 Dread then attack, and Selan use Thunder all the time, except attacking vs Erim.

You won't fucking believe this, but I just did it again to see how reasonable 15 was and got 13 minutes now actually. I didn't have to heal during battle this time, but I used Maxim's Champion before Erim this time. Are you using the 1 Dread strategy? And make sure you set the message speed to "fast" ASAP.

Another thing I forgot to say is, you need to menu manipulate like a madman while you're running. It really adds up. In Dragondarch's posted SO3 run, he actually goes into the menu for over a minute at one point. For great menu work, watch the FE7 run to see what I'm talking about. Lufia 1 is very hard to play fast in battles because you're usually not exactly sure whose turn will be next, but if you know your strategy completely, that helps.

OMG I had no idea Forfeit Island was still alive! Lufia.net I'd never seen before. It looks completely unprofessional and made by some kid, but that's part of the charm! A good idea if you're getting them to help is to link them here and tell them they don't need to sign up to post.

Edit: Just to have a third, final attempt, I tried again and got 12 minutes this time! Things didn't even seem to go optimally; regular enemies got to hit me one fight because I couldn't run away well, and I had a good bit of encounters. That confused me since I expected the time when I looked to be about 14. So I wondered where the party stops, so I did it again after that and got 12 again. It went very similar to the previous 12; I got hit by regular enemies and had to use Champion in between battles.

You might be able to do 11 (and I would expect a TAS to at least do 11) because I was able to dink around a lot before the timer changed to 13. However, 12 seems consistent enough. One thing I did differently was attack with Artea instead of using Sunder because after Dread, it is almost as good. The benefit is that I don't have to go through the menu for Sunder, and since Selan is the only person who isn't attacking, you can pretty much mash on A when you know she isn't coming up.

So my strategy was Maxim and Guy attack all the time, Artea always use 1 Dread then attack, and Selan use Thunder all the time, except attacking vs Erim.

DTaeKim

Edit history:

DTaeKim: 2006-02-22 04:04:10 am

2006-02-22 04:02:43 am

I am. I just don't see how I can't get 15 minutes. As soon as I can, I set it to Fast text and move Maxim as fast as he can towards the Sinistrals.

As for chests this time around, I am aiming for chests that contain Escape (they can't be bought), Hi Potions (before Jenoba), and equipment. The more money I can save, the less time spent searching for money later. Dragon Eggs are a must, so I am going to divert time in searching for them. Good thing most of them are not too far off the beaten path, save for the Egg in the Ghost Cave.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-02-22 04:30:54 am

2006-02-22 04:29:12 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

It is possible, although unlikely, that ZSNES and Snes9x are emulating differently. You could try that. 12 and >15 seems like a lot of difference though. My only other suggestion is: play like someone has a gun to your head? Tongue

Aiming for certain chests sounds like a good plan. Escapes will definitely save time before Jerin when you want to use them. Hi Potions I'm not sure about, unless you really need them before then. Dragon Eggs are also obvious for speed reasons.

The thing about equipment is, you save money that way, but you can't just say "I need to get money later so it evens out." I'm not sure this particular wikipedia article is good because I skimmed it for 5 secs, but do you know about diminishing returns? This is the precise reason why you want to hold off leveling as much as you can, getting Gold, and so on.

Here's an example. Let's say at the beginning of the game it takes 100 XP to level up and 1000 later on. Let's say every minute of leveling you gain 10 XP early and 100 late. Well, both early and late it would take you 10 minutes to gain a level. However, if you were to gain 2 levels early, thinking "that's one less level I have to gain later," it doesn't work that way. That's because you did it with only 100 XP. That same 100 XP means a whole lot less later on in the game. This is precisely why you want to be at minimum XP and minimum Gold at all times.

So in the Gold department, I would skirt by with the minimum it takes to survive. It definitely isn't worth the time to pick up equipment to sell to build up any kind of surplus. Once you get the Engage Ring, you will be able to cut even more corners with getting Gold, which is why it's so useful.

It is possible, although unlikely, that ZSNES and Snes9x are emulating differently. You could try that. 12 and >15 seems like a lot of difference though. My only other suggestion is: play like someone has a gun to your head? :P

Aiming for certain chests sounds like a good plan. Escapes will definitely save time before Jerin when you want to use them. Hi Potions I'm not sure about, unless you [i]really[/i] need them before then. Dragon Eggs are also obvious for speed reasons.

The thing about equipment is, you save money that way, but you can't just say "I need to get money later so it evens out." I'm not sure this particular wikipedia article is good because I skimmed it for 5 secs, but do you know about [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns]diminishing returns[/url]? This is the precise reason why you want to hold off leveling as much as you can, getting Gold, and so on.

Here's an example. Let's say at the beginning of the game it takes 100 XP to level up and 1000 later on. Let's say every minute of leveling you gain 10 XP early and 100 late. Well, both early and late it would take you 10 minutes to gain a level. However, if you were to gain 2 levels early, thinking "that's one less level I have to gain later," it doesn't work that way. That's because you did it with only 100 XP. That same 100 XP means a whole lot less later on in the game. This is precisely why you want to be at minimum XP and minimum Gold at all times.

So in the Gold department, I would skirt by with the minimum it takes to survive. It definitely isn't worth the time to pick up equipment to sell to build up any kind of surplus. Once you get the Engage Ring, you will be able to cut even more corners with getting Gold, which is why it's so useful.

DTaeKim

2006-02-22 05:10:23 am

Quote:

It is possible, although unlikely, that ZSNES and Snes9x are emulating differently. You could try that. 12 and >15 seems like a lot of difference though. My only other suggestion is: play like someone has a gun to your head? Tongue

Aiming for certain chests sounds like a good plan. Escapes will definitely save time before Jerin when you want to use them. Hi Potions I'm not sure about, unless you really need them before then. Dragon Eggs are also obvious for speed reasons.

The thing about equipment is, you save money that way, but you can't just say "I need to get money later so it evens out." I'm not sure this particular wikipedia article is good because I skimmed it for 5 secs, but do you know about diminishing returns? This is the precise reason why you want to hold off leveling as much as you can, getting Gold, and so on.

Here's an example. Let's say at the beginning of the game it takes 100 XP to level up and 1000 later on. Let's say every minute of leveling you gain 10 XP early and 100 late. Well, both early and late it would take you 10 minutes to gain a level. However, if you were to gain 2 levels early, thinking "that's one less level I have to gain later," it doesn't work that way. That's because you did it with only 100 XP. That same 100 XP means a whole lot less later on in the game. This is precisely why you want to be at minimum XP and minimum Gold at all times.

So in the Gold department, I would skirt by with the minimum it takes to survive. It definitely isn't worth the time to pick up equipment to sell to build up any kind of surplus. Once you get the Engage Ring, you will be able to cut even more corners with getting Gold, which is why it's so useful.

It makes sense. Actually, I have been skirting by on equipment from dungeons for the most part.

The sooner I can buy the equipment from Frederia, the better, since it benefits me immediately. I'll have to do another run to see exactly where my funds get me.

[quote]It is possible, although unlikely, that ZSNES and Snes9x are emulating differently. You could try that. 12 and >15 seems like a lot of difference though. My only other suggestion is: play like someone has a gun to your head? :P

Aiming for certain chests sounds like a good plan. Escapes will definitely save time before Jerin when you want to use them. Hi Potions I'm not sure about, unless you [i]really[/i] need them before then. Dragon Eggs are also obvious for speed reasons.

The thing about equipment is, you save money that way, but you can't just say "I need to get money later so it evens out." I'm not sure this particular wikipedia article is good because I skimmed it for 5 secs, but do you know about [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns]diminishing returns[/url]? This is the precise reason why you want to hold off leveling as much as you can, getting Gold, and so on.

Here's an example. Let's say at the beginning of the game it takes 100 XP to level up and 1000 later on. Let's say every minute of leveling you gain 10 XP early and 100 late. Well, both early and late it would take you 10 minutes to gain a level. However, if you were to gain 2 levels early, thinking "that's one less level I have to gain later," it doesn't work that way. That's because you did it with only 100 XP. That same 100 XP means a whole lot less later on in the game. This is precisely why you want to be at minimum XP and minimum Gold at all times.

So in the Gold department, I would skirt by with the minimum it takes to survive. It definitely isn't worth the time to pick up equipment to sell to build up any kind of surplus. Once you get the Engage Ring, you will be able to cut even more corners with getting Gold, which is why it's so useful.[/quote]

It makes sense.  Actually, I have been skirting by on equipment from dungeons for the most part.

The sooner I can buy the equipment from Frederia, the better, since it benefits me immediately.  I'll have to do another run to see exactly where my funds get me.

zell99

Edit history:

zell99: 2006-02-22 05:32:28 pm

2006-02-22 02:56:10 pm

Do'h! Homer'D!

Just for fun, I tried playing the intro and got 13 minutes on my first try, using the strat Enhasa listed (Maxim/Guy always attacked, Artea uses Dread once on each boss then attacks and Selan uses Thunder all the time except attacks vs Erim) I ran from 2 battles on my way to the Sinistrals and had to heal once between the Sinistrals. Maxim also died near the end of the last fight. Something that can easily add time is that the Sinistrals use a lot of attacks such as Glacier, Sunder, Vulcan.. that attacks the whole party and they consume time if they use them alot.

EDIT: I used ZSNES and it's the time I saw in the game menu as soon as I could control Hero in Alekia.

-Suzaku-

Edit history:

-Suzaku-: 2006-02-22 05:27:37 pm

2006-02-22 05:25:01 pm

Eternal Understudy

I have to say, the amount of dedication and, most of all, intelligence towards Lufia between you two (DTaeKim and Enhasa) simply astounds me.
I just hope people like you help me with my RPG runs! Keep up the amazing work!

DTaeKim

2006-02-22 07:24:44 pm

Hmmm...

I'm using ZNES now, and I decided to look indepth at the Sinistrals. This is on Retry mode, but here's the damage values on Gades.

1st Time - 243 + 234 + 477 + 230 + 115 + 220 + 236 + 443 + 100 + 218 + 257 + 90 + 475

13 attacks, One Dread used. Damage dealt = 3338

2nd Time - 243 + 234 + 477 + 270 + 259 + 503 + 121 + 233 + 248 + 441 = 3029

10 attacks, Two Dreads used. Damage dealt = 3029

Since most RPGs like to use round numbers against bosses (with notable exceptions), I presume Gades has 3000 HP.

However, I wonder how effective Dread really is. When I used 1 Dread in the first battle, my physical damage actually decreased. The second time, using 2 Dreads increased the damage drastically. I'm rather confused by this, and I probably will never know why unless I find the exact damage formula (highly unlikely).