Binding of Isaac

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-10-04 08:37:43 pm

2011-10-04 08:36:00 pm

Jack of all Trades

Anyone playing this? It's a fun $5 game from one of the Meat Boy guys. Kinda like a weird mix of Zelda and Robotron and a Rogue-like. Dunno if it's bad form to make a thread on a game you don't plan to run but I think a skillful, quick run through this game would be pretty impressive so I figured I'd start the conversation.

I can see this being really obnoxious to run. The map layouts, enemies, items, and bosses (except Mom) are all random. Also the categories would be really messy. I guess it'd either be a fresh start with just Isaac or 100% with any other character, although getting all the items is pretty tough I think. Cain would be good for running because of his high luck which pretty much always seems to give you awesome items + positive pills and lots of simple rooms. Everytime I play with him it feels like I'm cheating.

I guess you'd have to hope to get a treasure map and then rush for the boss? I don't know if skipping out of the way but awesome treasures is worth it since you'll be so gimped. But I haven't really tried doing a low% run either. The Gurdy Boss has like a bajillion HP and would take awhile to kill unless you have good upgrades I'd think. Then there's the random teleport into the I AM ERROR room which skips the floor and gives you tons of freebies, or the shovel that skips to the next floor as well. And the card that warps you to the boss. Plus if you do it with more items unlocked the bosses have harder forms + you have to deal with the 4 horsemen. Yet it's all different every time, so it's not like you can really plan unless someone murders the RNG.

EDIT: A small issue with starting from a fresh file is you wouldn't do the womb/final mother boss.

Thread title:

Anyone playing this? It's a fun $5 game from one of the Meat Boy guys. Kinda like a weird mix of Zelda and Robotron and a Rogue-like. Dunno if it's bad form to make a thread on a game you don't plan to run but I think a skillful, quick run through this game would be pretty impressive so I figured I'd start the conversation.

I can see this being really obnoxious to run. The map layouts, enemies, items, and bosses (except Mom) are all random. Also the categories would be really messy. I guess it'd either be a fresh start with just Isaac or 100% with any other character, although getting all the items is pretty tough I think. Cain would be good for running because of his high luck which pretty much always seems to give you awesome items + positive pills and lots of simple rooms. Everytime I play with him it feels like I'm cheating.

I guess you'd have to hope to get a treasure map and then rush for the boss? I don't know if skipping out of the way but awesome treasures is worth it since you'll be so gimped. But I haven't really tried doing a low% run either. The Gurdy Boss has like a bajillion HP and would take awhile to kill unless you have good upgrades I'd think. Then there's the random teleport into the I AM ERROR room which skips the floor and gives you tons of freebies, or the shovel that skips to the next floor as well. And the card that warps you to the boss. Plus if you do it with more items unlocked the bosses have harder forms + you have to deal with the 4 horsemen. Yet it's all different every time, so it's not like you can really plan unless someone murders the RNG.

EDIT: A small issue with starting from a fresh file is you wouldn't do the womb/final mother boss.

CrypticJacknife

Edit history:

CrypticJacknife: 2011-10-04 10:04:57 pm

2011-10-04 09:52:29 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

This game has far too much randomness (including Permadeath). Fucking amazing game, would be fucking terrible to attempt to speed run it though. I can totally see a low% run being cool to watch, preferably with Isaac, considering he is the stock character. And for straight up beast rushing, screw Cain, Judas for the freakin win! Edmund said he was going to release a free DLC on Halloween with new content, not just bug fixes. So let's hope we get some nice speed running options.

And also, you would need the treasure map and you would need the shovel, but needless to say watching someone skip every second floor would get boring really fast. For bosses, outside of the obvious using Bible on Mom, I HIGHHHHLY suggest the Monstro Tooth. Whatever the worm boss is in the womb, I just literally one-shot him with it. Fucking awesome.

Regardless, Marsh if you work out anything let me know. I've already smashed Mom 10 times and I'm sure as hell not stopping there! Cheesy

EDIT: Also, my definition of low% would be as follows.
- Isaac ONLY
- No Armour Hearts (Heart Refills are okay)
- No Items
- No Upgrades
- "True Ending" - By this I mean the actual full game, not just the first 6 levels.

Anyone has any additions to that or notice something I could explain better let me know.

This game has far too much randomness (including Permadeath). Fucking amazing game, would be fucking terrible to attempt to speed run it though. I can totally see a low% run being cool to watch, preferably with Isaac, considering he is the stock character. And for straight up beast rushing, screw Cain, Judas for the freakin win! Edmund said he was going to release a free DLC on Halloween with new content, not just bug fixes. So let's hope we get some nice speed running options.

And also, you would need the treasure map and you would need the shovel, but needless to say watching someone skip every second floor would get boring really fast. For bosses, outside of the obvious using Bible on Mom, I HIGHHHHLY suggest the Monstro Tooth. Whatever the worm boss is in the womb, I just literally one-shot him with it. Fucking awesome.

Regardless, Marsh if you work out anything let me know. I've already smashed Mom 10 times and I'm sure as hell not stopping there! :D

EDIT: Also, my definition of low% would be as follows.
- Isaac ONLY
- No Armour Hearts (Heart Refills are okay)
- No Items
- No Upgrades
- "True Ending" - By this I mean the actual full game, not just the first 6 levels.

Anyone has any additions to that or notice something I could explain better let me know.

BlueGlass

2011-10-05 07:13:55 am

Yep yep yep!

I agree completely with both of you; this game is amazing, and a speedrun would be impractical for like a million reasons. Aside from the random layout, there's the fact that more boss variations and items are unlocked as you play, and the final boss takes drastically longer on rounds 10+

Ideally speaking (at least from what I know), it would probably be fastest to get a shovel, battery, Mr. Mega, and Dr. Fetus all on the first two floors (basement 1 is too short to bother with the shovel IMO), then find an Emperor card on the way to womb II, warp to the heart, and bomb it to death. But the chances of that happening are probably literally one in a million.

BTW, does anyone know what the dice does?

Onin

2011-10-05 12:16:33 pm

I actually think that it's a real charm about speedrunning this game that it should be pretty quick to finish but there's really no such thing as planning or luck manipulation, it's all about execution and plain old doing it over and over. It may forever encourage people to keep trying to beat the top time!

I guess as far as division goes, it'd be low% and any% on the different characters. There's no such thing as 100%; are you gonna buy every item in every shop? You can't.

(Me, I gotta actually beat the game a few more times before I'll be able to add much to the tactics ^_^'')

CrypticJacknife

2011-10-05 12:46:51 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

There's metric shit tons of things to talk about when it comes to this game, but considering it's 5:45a.m atm, I can't be bothered to do it now, I'll type some stuff up tomorrow or something.

holydiver42

2011-10-05 04:29:06 pm

Everybody DANCE!

I'm thoroughly enjoying this game, especially now that I figured out why my controllers weren't working (stupid AZERTY setting...). During one of my playthroughs, I got an item that causes massive damage to enemies if they run into you (or vice versa). I forget what it's called, but I'm betting it could be useful. Course, I have yet to get past the third level, as I am lame.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-10-05 06:39:28 pm

marshmallow: 2011-10-05 06:35:41 pm

marshmallow: 2011-10-05 06:35:01 pm

marshmallow: 2011-10-05 06:32:57 pm

2011-10-05 06:31:53 pm

Jack of all Trades

All the items and their function.

The main problem with the way the items work is it won't go with SDA categories very well. "Best 37 items unlocked run." Yeah, that's not gonna fly. For example, when you beat the game and unlock ??? (the blue fetus thing that only has spirit hearts) you also unlock the Poo item, aka the worst item in the game. Your item pool is now that much more diluted. There's a sweet spot somewhere, surely, where there's the highest chance of finding good items. So I imagine due to that huge mess the categories would be all (100%) or nothing (fresh file). But getting 100% sounds like a PITA. And I don't know how easy it is to swap around your save files since I'm too scared to mess with it now. I know it involves so.sol in (Win XP) %appdata%\Macromedia\Flash Player\#SharedObjects\<Folder*>\localhost\

CrypticJacksknife: Yeah Judas has more damage which really helps against the bosses but you'll be waiting until the heat death of the universe to find a map, shovel, and bible in the same run with him. That's where Cain's luck comes in. Plus his luck will make rooms simpler and potentially give better items.

But maybe the item strategy is a red herring. Maybe it would just be better to blitz through the game with Judas and not even try to get items as all unless the treasure room is on the way. Because you can finish the game with just the Book of Belial. The other characters need to get lots of upgrades to do enough damage to really tear through.

EDIT: Actually the map isn't even that useful since it doesn't show you where the boss is, it just shows the blank rooms. The compass shows the icons, but not the rooms. Either way, a good run will probably just have to get lucky in always going towards the boss.

Also, maybe for a speed run you'd just have to hope for a nice devil item for the first boss. Lord of the Pit gives some crazy speed and maneuverability.

[url=http://bindingofisaac.wikia.com/wiki/Items]All the items and their function.[/url]

The main problem with the way the items work is it won't go with SDA categories very well. "Best 37 items unlocked run." Yeah, that's not gonna fly. For example, when you beat the game and unlock ?[i]?[/i]? (the blue fetus thing that only has spirit hearts) you also unlock the Poo item, aka the worst item in the game. Your item pool is now that much more diluted. There's a sweet spot somewhere, surely, where there's the highest chance of finding good items. So I imagine due to that huge mess the categories would be all (100%) or nothing (fresh file). But getting 100% sounds like a PITA. And I don't know how easy it is to swap around your save files since I'm too scared to mess with it now. I know it involves so.sol in (Win XP) %appdata%\Macromedia\Flash Player\#SharedObjects\<Folder*>\localhost\

CrypticJacksknife: Yeah Judas has more damage which really helps against the bosses but you'll be waiting until the heat death of the universe to find a map, shovel, and bible in the same run with him. That's where Cain's luck comes in. Plus his luck will make rooms simpler and potentially give better items.

But maybe the item strategy is a red herring. Maybe it would just be better to blitz through the game with Judas and not even try to get items as all unless the treasure room is on the way. Because you can finish the game with just the Book of Belial. The other characters need to get lots of upgrades to do enough damage to really tear through.

EDIT: Actually the map isn't even that useful since it doesn't show you where the boss is, it just shows the blank rooms. The compass shows the icons, but not the rooms. Either way, a good run will probably just have to get lucky in always going towards the boss.

Also, maybe for a speed run you'd just have to hope for a nice devil item for the first boss. Lord of the Pit gives some crazy speed and maneuverability.

BlueGlass

2011-10-05 08:52:56 pm

Yep yep yep!

Wait, the Bible instakills the heart, too? That is so cheap.

Something else to keep in mind in a potential speedrun is that bombs can blast open ordinary doors.

Also, thanks for the link, Marshmallow.

CrypticJacknife

2011-10-05 11:03:34 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Something else I literally just unlocked would be amazingly useful, in spoiler tags because it does take a bit of work to unlock.

The D6 item you unlock after beating the game with Huh?

(yes that's his name) becomes default on Isaac, and it re-rolls any item on a pedestal. This could be tied with a battery to produce wondrous results no doubt. Maybe the game works on a pool system to re-roll items. More research definitely needs to be done.

As far as categorizing goes. I think I'd be happiest with simply making the full game completed (unlocked items and all) for any decent run. Otherwise yes indeed we could end up with a 50 line set of categories within a short amount of time.

Apparently a lot of pampering of the save data is happening at the moment, due to many people having issues with the save game deleting itself for any given reason. I think they may revise the way it works, maybe with Steam Cloud. Regardless, when this comes around it will probably become a lot more apparent how to mingle with the save files without repercussion.

Something else I literally just unlocked would be amazingly useful, in spoiler tags because it does take a bit of work to unlock.

[hidden]The D6 item you unlock after beating the game with ??? (yes that's his name) becomes default on Isaac, and it re-rolls any item on a pedestal. This could be tied with a battery to produce wondrous results no doubt. Maybe the game works on a pool system to re-roll items. More research definitely needs to be done.[/hidden]

As far as categorizing goes. I think I'd be happiest with simply making the full game completed (unlocked items and all) for any decent run. Otherwise yes indeed we could end up with a 50 line set of categories within a short amount of time.

Apparently a lot of pampering of the save data is happening at the moment, due to many people having issues with the save game deleting itself for any given reason. I think they may revise the way it works, maybe with Steam Cloud. Regardless, when this comes around it will probably become a lot more apparent how to mingle with the save files without repercussion.

marshmallow

2011-10-06 03:23:20 am

Jack of all Trades

I just did a really rough run with Judas and got ~17:50. I captured it in Camtasia in case anyone wants to see it but I can probably do better. No bible but I maxed out my damage and just tore through everything. Took lots of wrong paths tho. I'm still not exactly sure how some of these dmg items relate to each other. Some turn the tears red/make the tears big but don't seem to add to the dmg meter on the pause screen but they obviously kill faster. If you have max dmg for example does using the Book of Belial even help anymore?

And yes, the virus is awesome. I got it during the run too. It's great for taking out thick clumps of Knights (those guys who you have to shoot in the back) or those Dry Bones copy cats who reassemble themselves. Especially since the game gives you a couple ticks of invulnerability after taking damage, so you can sometimes kill 2 or 3 enemies while only getting hit once.

A fast way to kill the clones (besides running them into spikes) is to place a bomb and them have them run into it.

I'm assuming everyone knows how to abuse the AI of Monstro I and II.

If you get the card that brings a beggar out a funny tactic is to summon him during a boss fight and feed him coins while shooting the boss. I got an extra heart container in the run that way.

I think the best run would probably end up needing Pit Lord so you could just fly over rocks, brain slime, spikes, holes, and the poison/pee slicks from some of the bosses.

I just did a really rough run with Judas and got ~17:50. I captured it in Camtasia in case anyone wants to see it but I can probably do better. No bible but I maxed out my damage and just tore through everything. Took lots of wrong paths tho. I'm still not exactly sure how some of these dmg items relate to each other. Some turn the tears red/make the tears big but don't seem to add to the dmg meter on the pause screen but they obviously kill faster. If you have max dmg for example does using the Book of Belial even help anymore?

And yes, the virus is awesome. I got it during the run too. It's great for taking out thick clumps of Knights (those guys who you have to shoot in the back) or those Dry Bones copy cats who reassemble themselves. Especially since the game gives you a couple ticks of invulnerability after taking damage, so you can sometimes kill 2 or 3 enemies while only getting hit once.

A fast way to kill the clones (besides running them into spikes) is to place a bomb and them have them run into it.

I'm assuming everyone knows how to abuse the AI of Monstro I and II.

If you get the card that brings a beggar out a funny tactic is to summon him during a boss fight and feed him coins while shooting the boss. I got an extra heart container in the run that way.

I think the best run would probably end up needing Pit Lord so you could just fly over rocks, brain slime, spikes, holes, and the poison/pee slicks from some of the bosses.

CrypticJacknife

2011-10-06 03:30:23 am

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Very nice! Sure, if you're willing upload any runs you capture, would be good to know what the best times are like performance and luck wise.
I'm about to launch some force into some research of how the levels generate commonly, level sizes and maybe even key room probability.

About the damage, I'm pretty sure everything stacks, but bonuses might diminish once you get REALLY high attack. Example, I just finished a run where I got multiple Attack Ups and Chocolate Milk, had amazingly powerful attacks, used the Devil tarot card on the final boss, and I'm not kidding you some of the charged shots were taking up a good quarter of the screen. So much freaking damage.

It only dawned on me in the last run that you can use the D6 to re-roll the items in the devil room. You know what that means, extra chance to get the shovel. Works with all collectable and upgrade items in the shop as well. Great stuff this item is.

Expect some updates soon.

CrypticJacknife

2011-10-06 04:28:17 am

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

After 10 runs of the Basement I have some facts to share.

First of all, Basement 1 seems to always have 10 Rooms total, including the hidden room. Likewise, Basement 2 always has 13 Rooms total. Additionally, the distance of rooms between your spawn point and the boss room alternate between 3 and 4. I've been 5 rooms from it once in Basement 2, but I think that probably wouldn't happen in Basement 1.

Onin

2011-10-06 03:18:29 pm

I'm thinking that a close to optimal run will involve some good early speed/damage boosts along with that spade, and a lucky Bible drop in Mom's level. I just raced through the game thanks to an early Roid Rage and Steven, found a Rock, got a lot of soul hearts to cushion the hits...

Thing is that some of the harder rooms can take just as long as bosses. You can't rely on special nuke items to clear those, fast move speed and high damage are much more useful.

I think the Zelda stance you do when picking up or using items/cards/pills gives invincibility frames, might save your arse somewhere.

marshmallow

2011-10-06 04:54:16 pm

Jack of all Trades

Wouldn't the only way a Bible could spawn in the Womb be if it's in a secret room? Because those levels don't have treasure rooms. For me usually, if the secret rooms have items at all, it's a mushroom or something like a compass. YMMV.

BlueGlass

2011-10-06 07:13:28 pm

Yep yep yep!

What I normally find in secret rooms item-wise are 1up mushrooms, unicorn horns, and rarely the noose or shovel.

Again though, Dr. Fetus is stupidly overpowered in most situations, and I've seen it often enough in basement 1 in my no-damage attempts that I'd consider getting it to be viable.

I still can't believe we're seriously considering this. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do any actual running due to slowdown issues.

Also, about the basement 1 layout, I've had multiple attempts where the boss door was one room away from the starting point.

marshmallow

2011-10-06 08:25:13 pm

Jack of all Trades

The Rock item that you can get by bombing blue rocks seems to add more damage than other items, but it just may be my imagination. I had that + the laser early which was pretty insane. Too bad I took every wrong path possible.

BlueGlass

Edit history:

BlueGlass: 2011-10-06 09:46:59 pm

2011-10-06 08:42:15 pm

Yep yep yep!

I think the rock is damage+2, same as a lot of other damage boosting items. Of course, it also drops speed by 1, which is a real problem for everyone besides Cain.

Personally, I've yet to have a good experience with the laser. Piercing and unmatched range doesn't have the same versatility as the ability to angle shots with knockback; then again, I have yet to pair it with a damage up. I'm curious how it interacts with chocolate milk as well.

Also, you mentioned AI abuse on Monstro. I spotted it pretty easily on Monstro II, but how do you abuse him the first time?

edit: A quick note. From personal experience and videos on Youtube, it seems the Bible appears only and always in the depths II shop when playing as Isaac. Can anyone confirm or deny?

marshmallow

2011-10-07 01:30:35 am

Jack of all Trades

I've been trying to do more runs but I haven't been even able to match my first 'bad' one. Go figure. I either get crap items or I fail to go the correct way.

BlueGrass: I've seen the Bible all over the place, although usually in a shop. I dunno if it's always in the Womb2 shop if you're Isaac though. That'd be interesting.

From the BoI wiki on the rock: (Judas: +3 damage, no speed decrease, tear +1). Weird, but matches my experience.

For Monstro 1 you can do the same thing to root him in place when he vomits up the spray of blood. Run to the other side and shoot him while he does it, go back in front of him, he does it again, etc. You can actually run through the spray partially sometimes, or I guess "behind" it.

I don't think I angle shots very much. I usually just run right up to enemies and spam into their face, or run around the perimeter of the room shooting into the enemies in the middle. The laser makes so many rooms much, much simpler + faster. And when you get +dmg (or use the BoB) the laser becomes thicker. Plus it crosses the room instantly. So you can kill the clone by just shooting him and running away before his shots hit you. You can kill Knights straight up. Snake bosses can be killed in like 2-3 shots since it pierces all their body parts. Swarms of small enemies evaporate, etc.

I've been trying to do more runs but I haven't been even able to match my first 'bad' one. Go figure. I either get crap items or I fail to go the correct way.

BlueGrass: I've seen the Bible all over the place, although usually in a shop. I dunno if it's always in the Womb2 shop if you're Isaac though. That'd be interesting.

From the BoI wiki on the rock: (Judas: +3 damage, no speed decrease, tear +1). Weird, but matches my experience.

For Monstro 1 you can do the same thing to root him in place when he vomits up the spray of blood. Run to the other side and shoot him while he does it, go back in front of him, he does it again, etc. You can actually run through the spray partially sometimes, or I guess "behind" it.

I don't think I angle shots very much. I usually just run right up to enemies and spam into their face, or run around the perimeter of the room shooting into the enemies in the middle. The laser makes so many rooms much, much simpler + faster. And when you get +dmg (or use the BoB) the laser becomes thicker. Plus it crosses the room instantly. So you can kill the clone by just shooting him and running away before his shots hit you. You can kill Knights straight up. Snake bosses can be killed in like 2-3 shots since it pierces all their body parts. Swarms of small enemies evaporate, etc.

BlueGlass

2011-10-07 02:39:18 am

Yep yep yep!

Are you sure you're not confusing the bible and the book of revelations? The only difference between them graphically is a color change, so it's not hard to get them mixed up. Also, I'm assuming you meant Depths II there, not Womb II.

Maybe the rock affects different characters differently, or possibly some powerups have a different effect on Judas or something, because I know it gives Cain +2 attack and -! speed.

Okay, so Monstro I isn't as broken as II.

I see your point now about the laser; just had a no-damage attempt make it to Depths I thanks to that, a couple damage ups, and several tears ups. Also, I'd like to note using an item does NOT give you invincibility frames, unlike Onin said in his last post.

This game is waaay too addictive. I really should be sleeping right now, but I'm not, and it's been a couple weeks since I've done any work on my Okami speedrun.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-10-08 03:08:17 pm

marshmallow: 2011-10-08 03:01:02 pm

marshmallow: 2011-10-08 02:27:12 pm

marshmallow: 2011-10-08 02:22:32 pm

2011-10-08 02:19:25 pm

Jack of all Trades

Right click and save as!

That was my best run yet and then I failed. Everything was going so well too. It hurts so much more than other games because it's so damned random. I won't have everything fall into place like that for like another 200 attempts. Considering all the branching paths I don't even want to think about what the probability of choosing the right one all the through would be. That vid was on pace for ~15:00 for sure. Sad

The first problem was when I got Roid Rage. Now I was TOO fast. It's hard to stop on a dime and shoot like that.

The main thing was the womb seemed different and threw me off. I never saw so many of those skull turtle things -- I associate those with the caves/depths. The only time I saw them in the womb, at least before that run, was in an easy corner guarding where you can position yourself to kill a clone. Then when I got to the boss so fast yet again I was relieved because usually the first womb boss is easy mode. But...I've never seen this boss? But I have? WTF is going on? Am I on crack? When I fight this guy he is always mostly stationary, sprays some pellets here and there, and he's a cinch. I was shocked when he jumped like Monstro. Then he didn't land where Monstro would and was owning me. Then the little ones jumped too and I got roflstomped. Do I just not play the womb enough or something? Is this the 'hard' version and I've just never seen him before?

In the Depths 1 there were 2 new rooms for me back to back, around 5:23. The room with bees + the sponge things in the corner, then the Bomberman room except with a ton of new blocks blocking everything. The second one especially you can see me pause and bump into walls, completely stupefied. Dunno how I never saw these setups in 200+ runs.

EDIT: Also like the part where I picked up the bad pill even though I literally just used it. I IS SMRT.

An anecdote:
Start the game. Run into the door behind Judas. See giant colored bee right in front of the door, see giant colored bee shoot a giant blood drop at Judas, see Judas get one shotted. Total segment time: 3 seconds. OK then! I wish I saved this segment because it would've been a great blooper.

Random tip:
Bombs can one shot kill all forms of Larry Jr. if the explosion hits the middle segment. Even the tougher blue ones. I have one particularly awesome clip from a different failed run where I kill three blue ones with one bomb, semi-accidentally (I somehow shot the bomb with tears and propelled it into the sweet between all three).

Things that make me rage:

1. When I find the boss door super early and there's no treasure on the way. I've ended up in Caves 2 with zero upgrades, bombs, or keys this way. Or you find the boss door so fast the BoB isn't even recharged (that's what happened on the Duke of Flies in the above failed segment, I was waiting for the BoB to activate but it never came)

2. Basement, flies hiding in rocks, especially the room with a giant rock formation and the flies hide inside and take forever to kill because you either wait for them to come out or you bomb it. Usually a gg.

3. Basement, the maze or grid of rocks set one space apart where the Hives can so easily run away and be annoying bastards.

4. Basement, room with four closed spaces each with 2 zombie things -- takes forever and a day to clear.

5. The four horseman bosses drop meat cubes instead of good items.

6. Depths, room with 4+ knights without virus/laser/cupid/bomb/kill card/flight = gg too slow.

7. Caves, room after room with those turtle skull things. This slows you down like crazy unless you have chocolate milk (and never miss) or HUGE dmg + firing speed. Also you'll probably have to take damage anyway.

8. Womb, having to fight two Envies at once (the guy who splits into tiny balls). That's just cruel.

9. Womb, those god damned mole things that dig away when you get close (12:40 in the above vid). Y U NO DIE FAESTER?

10. I've died 200+ times so now my item list has been polluted with the Shears item.

11. When Gemini stops to rest in a spot where I can't shoot him without being shot by his midget twin (who, btw, has really bad hit detection).

12. Finding poop in a treasure room, literally.

13. A room full of those jumping headless bodies who also spray projectiles in each cardinal direction when they land. Not only does it lag the game up but it's really hard to hit them without getting hit yourself.

Item thoughts:

At this point I pretty much end the run if I don't find a +dmg item by caves 1. I might look around the first room or two to see if one is around but if not, gg. Kill speed is just too slow. You can sometimes get away with only having laser/cupid because of the pierce, or Chocolate Milk, but otherwise...no.

Halo is awesome because it increases everything -- dmg, run speed, rate of fire. Turns tears red too.

Mom's Contacts's freezing effect on bosses is pretty ridiculous. They can't jump or throw bombs or fire their laz0r if they're a statue.

Wiggle Worm is only good if your aim sucks. Otherwise expect your shots to curve around the enemy.

Pentagram, Blood of the Martyr (Crown of Thorns), and Small Rock max out the damage meter. The Puppy Head seemed to turn the tears red (and make them big) but didn't seem to affect the damage meter, although it obviously killed faster. I might be remembering incorrectly though. I feel like the damage meter doesn't change until you shoot a tear, which is weird.

I feel like the Book of Belial (BoB) still increases dmg even if your meter is maxed...but I dunno.

[url=http://marsh.speedrunwiki.com/Binding%20of%20Isaac/BoI_Failed_RunA_marsh.mp4]Right click and save as![/url]

That was my best run yet and then I failed. Everything was going so well too. It hurts so much more than other games because it's so damned random. I won't have everything fall into place like that for like another 200 attempts. Considering all the branching paths I don't even want to think about what the probability of choosing the right one all the through would be. That vid was on pace for ~15:00 for sure. :(

The first problem was when I got Roid Rage. Now I was TOO fast. It's hard to stop on a dime and shoot like that.

The main thing was the womb seemed different and threw me off. I never saw so many of those skull turtle things -- I associate those with the caves/depths. The only time I saw them in the womb, at least before that run, was in an easy corner guarding where you can position yourself to kill a clone. Then when I got to the boss so fast yet again I was relieved because usually the first womb boss is easy mode. But...I've never seen this boss? But I have? WTF is going on? Am I on crack? When I fight this guy he is always mostly stationary, sprays some pellets here and there, and he's a cinch. I was shocked when he jumped like Monstro. Then he didn't land where Monstro would and was owning me. Then the little ones jumped too and I got roflstomped. Do I just not play the womb enough or something? Is this the 'hard' version and I've just never seen him before?

In the Depths 1 there were 2 new rooms for me back to back, around 5:23. The room with bees + the sponge things in the corner, then the Bomberman room except with a ton of new blocks blocking everything. The second one especially you can see me pause and bump into walls, completely stupefied. Dunno how I never saw these setups in 200+ runs.

EDIT: Also like the part where I picked up the bad pill even though I literally just used it. I IS SMRT.

An anecdote:
Start the game. Run into the door behind Judas. See giant colored bee right in front of the door, see giant colored bee shoot a giant blood drop at Judas, see Judas get one shotted. Total segment time: 3 seconds. OK then! I wish I saved this segment because it would've been a great blooper.

Random tip:
Bombs can one shot kill all forms of Larry Jr. if the explosion hits the middle segment. Even the tougher blue ones. I have one particularly awesome clip from a different failed run where I kill three blue ones with one bomb, semi-accidentally (I somehow shot the bomb with tears and propelled it into the sweet between all three).

Things that make me rage:

1. When I find the boss door super early and there's no treasure on the way. I've ended up in Caves 2 with zero upgrades, bombs, or keys this way. Or you find the boss door so fast the BoB isn't even recharged (that's what happened on the Duke of Flies in the above failed segment, I was waiting for the BoB to activate but it never came)

2. Basement, flies hiding in rocks, especially the room with a giant rock formation and the flies hide inside and take forever to kill because you either wait for them to come out or you bomb it. Usually a gg.

3. Basement, the maze or grid of rocks set one space apart where the Hives can so easily run away and be annoying bastards.

4. Basement, room with four closed spaces each with 2 zombie things -- takes forever and a day to clear.

5. The four horseman bosses drop meat cubes instead of good items.

6. Depths, room with 4+ knights without virus/laser/cupid/bomb/kill card/flight = gg too slow.

7. Caves, room after room with those turtle skull things. This slows you down like crazy unless you have chocolate milk (and never miss) or HUGE dmg + firing speed. Also you'll probably have to take damage anyway.

8. Womb, having to fight two Envies at once (the guy who splits into tiny balls). That's just cruel.

9. Womb, those god damned mole things that dig away when you get close (12:40 in the above vid). Y U NO DIE FAESTER?

10. I've died 200+ times so now my item list has been polluted with the Shears item.

11. When Gemini stops to rest in a spot where I can't shoot him without being shot by his midget twin (who, btw, has really bad hit detection).

12. Finding poop in a treasure room, literally.

13. A room full of those jumping headless bodies who also spray projectiles in each cardinal direction when they land. Not only does it lag the game up but it's really hard to hit them without getting hit yourself.

Item thoughts:

At this point I pretty much end the run if I don't find a +dmg item by caves 1. I might look around the first room or two to see if one is around but if not, gg. Kill speed is just too slow. You can sometimes get away with only having laser/cupid because of the pierce, or Chocolate Milk, but otherwise...no.

Halo is awesome because it increases everything -- dmg, run speed, rate of fire. Turns tears red too.

Mom's Contacts's freezing effect on bosses is pretty ridiculous. They can't jump or throw bombs or fire their laz0r if they're a statue.

Wiggle Worm is only good if your aim sucks. Otherwise expect your shots to curve around the enemy.

Pentagram, Blood of the Martyr (Crown of Thorns), and Small Rock max out the damage meter. The Puppy Head seemed to turn the tears red (and make them big) but didn't seem to affect the damage meter, although it obviously killed faster. I might be remembering incorrectly though. I feel like the damage meter doesn't change until you shoot a tear, which is weird.

I feel like the Book of Belial (BoB) still increases dmg even if your meter is maxed...but I dunno.

BlueGlass

2011-10-08 09:09:30 pm

Yep yep yep!

Oogh, bad luck at the end there. And never having seen Blastocyst before isn't surprising, as he seems pretty rare. I've only run into him once myself. He's not as bad as Death IMO. Also, about your Monstro II fight, if you stand just above his laser beam you can hit him constantly, inching donwards as your shots push him down the room.

The magic mushroom is even better for stat boosts than the halo I'm pretty sure.

Those stat meters aren't very precise I don't think. For example, at damage 4, Cain will one-hit red flies, while Judas needs two shots. Plus I know both attack and range will increase beyond what the meter shows.

Also, a few things I'd like to point out after my last few run-throughs. First, my theory on the Bible was wrong, and the Isaac wiki is also wrong where it says the Rosary makes the Bible appear in all future shops. Second and possibly more importantly, the last update seems to have removed the ability to escape rooms by bombing the doors, which I think might be a glitch: the doors are still blasted open, there's just an invisible wall keeping you from leaving.

Oogh, bad luck at the end there.  And never having seen Blastocyst before isn't surprising, as he seems pretty rare.  I've only run into him once myself.  He's not as bad as Death IMO.  Also, about your Monstro II fight, if you stand just above his laser beam you can hit him constantly, inching donwards as your shots push him down the room.

The magic mushroom is even better for stat boosts than the halo I'm pretty sure.

Those stat meters aren't very precise I don't think.  For example, at damage 4, Cain will one-hit red flies, while Judas needs two shots.  Plus I know both attack and range will increase beyond what the meter shows.

Also, a few things I'd like to point out after my last few run-throughs.  First, my theory on the Bible was wrong, and the Isaac wiki is also wrong where it says the Rosary makes the Bible appear in all future shops.  Second and possibly more importantly, the last update seems to have removed the ability to escape rooms by bombing the doors, which I think might be a glitch: the doors are still blasted open, there's just an invisible wall keeping you from leaving.

Onin

2011-10-09 07:12:58 am

I can't stand playing as Judas D: Getting the BoB to kill bosses faster is cool but you need so much luck in damage AND health items... I'm going back to Cain.

Worst room is the one with the 8-10 bleeding headless guys, that randomly chuck blobs around. Impossible to get through without losing at least one heart ._.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-10-09 11:09:50 am

marshmallow: 2011-10-09 11:09:40 am

2011-10-09 11:08:33 am

Jack of all Trades

Onin: So you're capturing runs too? I don't find health to be too much of a problem with Judas because bosses usually drop containers, unless they're the horseman. It is harder to get devil items I guess tho. But doesn't Cain need luck in getting dmg items too? I haven't tried running with him.

BlueGlass: The door thing made me sad because you could get out of dead ends filled with tough monsters. Also, didn't the game used to have a triumphant item pickup noise? Now it's silent.

I thought I've fought Blastocyst lots of times but he never jumped around like that.

For Monstro II, are you saying there's a sweet spot where you can continually hit him and he'll keep firing his laser instead of having to run back and forth from his side? I tried that but it didn't work too well.

BlueGlass

2011-10-09 11:20:31 am

Yep yep yep!

I hope the door issue is just a glitch that'll be fixed in a later update. I mean, why have them able to be blasted open if you can't go through them.

Blastocyst shows up fairly often as a random miniboss, but you only fight the full-sized leaping one in the official boss fight.

And yes for Monstro II. Stand so you're almost touching the laser, and your tears will still hit the top of him. They'll push him down and away slightly, but you just need to follow the movement. When he stops lasering, you should still be in place to make him do it again... and again... and again.

Onin

2011-10-09 02:52:27 pm

I'm mostly practicing casually, I've only actually killed Mom twice Tongue

If I think I can master it enough to take a shot at a good run I'll see if I can capture one.

Cain at least starts off with some nice health, and his luck boost makes it a lot less annoying to run. And I feel damage boost items are just far more powerful than health boost items, so Cain's lower starting damage is less detrimental than Judas's lower health. But that's just my opinion.