Binding of Isaac

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-03 01:51:37 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-03 01:50:27 pm

2011-11-03 01:48:52 pm

Jack of all Trades

Quote from Fragmaster01:

I saw a video of Chocolate Milk + Brimstone. It's basically the charged laser with a reload speed equal to normal tears.

Getting those as your first two items is less likely than just getting Fetus, which is already pretty taxing.

Even then if you one shot every monster in the room (e.g. clump in the middle) you're only as fast as Fetus because you won't have to stop moving at all. If the enemies are spread out and you have to stick around then you lose time because Fetus will already be in the next room. If you have to fight an annoying multistage mini-boss (or multiples thereof) in the womb/sheol you're losing time again, although I suppose you could save bombs for such an occasion. The Brimstone item is a LOT easier/safer to use though. The fact it pierces all obstacles and enemies and gives max damage and only costs a single heart is so ridiculous I wonder if it'll be nerfed in a future patch. Or other devil items will be price adjusted (e.g. +damage items that cost 2 hearts going to 1, ditto with the nail).

Plus you'll lose time before you get the Brimstone item from the first boss devil room since you'll just have wimpy tears for the first basement. There are a couple obnoxious room setups involving catwalks in the caves where the Brimstone might be faster than the Fetus though.

[quote="Fragmaster01"]
I saw a video of Chocolate Milk + Brimstone. It's basically the charged laser with a reload speed equal to normal tears.[/quote]

Getting those as your first two items is less likely than just getting Fetus, which is already pretty taxing.

Even then if you one shot every monster in the room (e.g. clump in the middle) you're only as fast as Fetus because you won't have to stop moving at all. If the enemies are spread out and you have to stick around then you lose time because Fetus will already be in the next room. If you have to fight an annoying multistage mini-boss (or multiples thereof) in the womb/sheol you're losing time again, although I suppose you could save bombs for such an occasion. The Brimstone item is a LOT easier/safer to use though. The fact it pierces all obstacles and enemies and gives max damage and only costs a single heart is so ridiculous I wonder if it'll be nerfed in a future patch. Or other devil items will be price adjusted (e.g. +damage items that cost 2 hearts going to 1, ditto with the nail).

Plus you'll lose time before you get the Brimstone item from the first boss devil room since you'll just have wimpy tears for the first basement. There are a couple obnoxious room setups involving catwalks in the caves where the Brimstone might be faster than the Fetus though.

Onin

2011-11-03 02:29:48 pm

Brimstone is arguably a lot safer, though, and Fetus can be a nightmare on certain bosses, whereas Brimstone+Choco rolls over anything at a massive speed.

At the end of the day both will need to be tested thoroughly. And hell, maybe we can just assume the difference to be negligible compared to other time savers (like compass or just lucky route picking) so our RNG hell at least offers two good paths rather than only one.

SkratMan

Edit history:

SkratMan: 2011-11-03 05:30:37 pm

2011-11-03 04:24:01 pm

[+--oo] In control since '86

Quote from marshmallow:

I think I've only seen the raw liver in secret rooms.

Exactly. One of the last two items I was missing pre-patch was the Raw Liver, so I was on a mission to locate it. The Raw Liver is indeed in the secret rooms; I wouldn't bother looking anywhere else. As for Forget Me Now, not sure. I've asked in the Steam forums, so I'll edit this post if I receive a response. [EDIT: Someone said that it can be sold by the Devil for one heart.]

As for Brimstone and Satan, I've seen at least one report that it still wasn't working post--most-recent-patch. It may have been a rumor, however, and I'm wary of picking up Brimstone to try it out myself. But as Exo said, there were some people who reported no issues with this before the most recent patch, so it's still uncertain. Besides, those patch notes say nothing about Brimstone damaging Satan, just Brimstone's cross-item contamination. The Bob's Rotten Head bug hasn't been fixed yet, either.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-04 03:21:10 pm

2011-11-04 03:20:02 pm

Jack of all Trades

I found some little tips from the BoI wiki that are useful. Maybe common knowledge but they were news to me.

For the Womb clones:

Quote:

In the room with spikes on both corners, it is actually possible to kill him without taking any damage using them. The hitbox of the spikes is actually a tiny bit higher than the sprite itself - basically, if the tips touch Isaac's feet, they hurt him. So, if you get as close to the top left / top right spikes from the bottom as you can without touching them, the Dople will stand directly on the tips of the spikes at the bottom of the screen, and will quickly die.

Quote:

Diagonal evasion: It should be noted that Isaac can walk diagonally past two diagonally arranged spiked tiles, which is important to know since players tend to think certain items or Beggar could not be reached without getting hurt. To walk past them unharmed, get as close to both spikes as possible (this way it's easier to see if you stand with equal distance to both tiles), and then walk orthogonally through the spiked tiles. To do that, hit the two accordant buttons for the diagonal walk simultaneously.

Didn't try but I'm sure it'd work:

Hosts can be pushed onto spikes to kill them rapidly.

I found some little tips from the BoI wiki that are useful. Maybe common knowledge but they were news to me.

For the Womb clones:

[quote]In the room with spikes on both corners, it is actually possible to kill him without taking any damage using them. The hitbox of the spikes is actually a tiny bit higher than the sprite itself - basically, if the tips touch Isaac's feet, they hurt him. So, if you get as close to the top left / top right spikes from the bottom as you can without touching them, the Dople will stand directly on the tips of the spikes at the bottom of the screen, and will quickly die.[/quote]

[quote]Diagonal evasion: It should be noted that Isaac can walk diagonally past two diagonally arranged spiked tiles, which is important to know since players tend to think certain items or Beggar could not be reached without getting hurt. To walk past them unharmed, get as close to both spikes as possible (this way it's easier to see if you stand with equal distance to both tiles), and then walk orthogonally through the spiked tiles. To do that, hit the two accordant buttons for the diagonal walk simultaneously. [/quote]

Didn't try but I'm sure it'd work:

[url=http://bindingofisaac.wikia.com/wiki/Host]Hosts[/url] can be pushed onto spikes to kill them rapidly.

RaneofSOTN

2011-11-04 06:29:30 pm

I want off the ride....

in trying to get golden god yesterday I had a god-like luck streak. Basement 1 fetus, basement 2 mr mega. And i was always within 3-4 doors of the boss (and headed towards him) it was like stupid good too bad i dont record when i was playing Sad

prob would've smashed 15 mins.

marshmallow

2011-11-04 08:50:57 pm

Jack of all Trades

I wonder what the new target time should be. The Satan fight is pretty long just by itself. I'm working on unlocking all the new items. Gotta win with Eve's gimped damage still. I heard the knife item is really good too but I haven't seen it yet.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-05 04:21:18 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-05 04:13:12 pm

2011-11-05 04:11:53 pm

Jack of all Trades

Right click to save as.

Last two bosses rolled with Brimstone + Chocolate Milk.

Satan Fetus Jar test.

BrimChoco:
Mom1 = 20 seconds but should've been like 15 because I sucked a bit
Mom's heart = 21 secs new PR
Satan = 45 secs (1st stage = 12 , 2nd stage = 13 , 3rd stage = 20)

Fetus Jar:
Satan = 1:05 (1st stage = 25 secs, 2nd stage = 13 secs, 3rd stage = 27 secs)

My bomb timing was pretty bad. Gotta delay the first bombs a couple beats to make sure it hits both bomb leeches which does a lot of damage to the boss. Then try to make it so when he splits they stay together. Second stage DPS is about the same compared to BrimChoco. For the last phase I thought I'd shoot the bomb after the 2nd leg comes down but it seems better to do it after the first.

My Mom's Heart Fetus PR is slower than BrimChoco by like 20 secs but it made me fight Monstro during that. For that BrimChoco run there were no bosses, which seems a little odd and really lucky. Subtracting the Monstro fight time the Fetus was still 10 secs slower.

Right click to save as.

[url=http://marsh.speedrunwiki.com/Binding%20of%20Isaac/BoI_marsh_BrimChoco%20=%20LAWLS.mp4]Last two bosses rolled with Brimstone + Chocolate Milk.[/url]

[url=http://marsh.speedrunwiki.com/Binding%20of%20Isaac/BoI_marsh_Satan%20Fetus%20Test.mp4]Satan Fetus Jar test.[/url]

BrimChoco:
Mom1 = 20 seconds but should've been like 15 because I sucked a bit
Mom's heart = 21 secs new PR
Satan = 45 secs (1st stage = 12 , 2nd stage = 13 , 3rd stage = 20)

Fetus Jar:
Satan = 1:05 (1st stage = 25 secs, 2nd stage = 13 secs, 3rd stage = 27 secs)

My bomb timing was pretty bad. Gotta delay the first bombs a couple beats to make sure it hits both bomb leeches which does a lot of damage to the boss. Then try to make it so when he splits they stay together. Second stage DPS is about the same compared to BrimChoco. For the last phase I thought I'd shoot the bomb after the 2nd leg comes down but it seems better to do it after the first.

My Mom's Heart Fetus PR is slower than BrimChoco by like 20 secs but it made me fight Monstro during that. For that BrimChoco run there were no bosses, which seems a little odd and really lucky. Subtracting the Monstro fight time the Fetus was still 10 secs slower.

CrypticJacknife

2011-11-05 04:19:33 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Honestly I think we may want to wait for nerfs before extensive time testing (because I'm telling you, Brimstone WILL be nerfed), but regardless, good to see some hard data coming out of Isaac Smiley

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-05 10:02:16 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-05 09:59:44 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-05 09:52:46 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-05 09:47:17 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-05 09:46:18 pm

2011-11-05 09:45:14 pm

Jack of all Trades

Here's that old 13:47 run I was talking about a couple pages back. Right click save as.

Could be much better obviously which is why I never submitted it but I figure it could be useful to put out there. I was still learning some things back then (e.g. whether dice will change a cube of meat into something else). I should've used the dice on the lipstick from the first boss. And for the Mom 1 battle I need to shoot the bomb out as the shadow starts to get bigger. My timing in that fight was really bad. Ditto for some of the Monstro battles. If I didn't waste the dice on the Gish item then I could've used it on the Belt in Depths II instead. And you can see how I get frustrated sometimes trying to open the doors with the bombs. Point blank and sometimes it bounces off, other times not. Sometimes if things are really hectic I just lay an actual bomb. The Womb II pathing really torpedoed the run. I enter at 10:34 and don't get to the boss until 13:04.

BrimChoco would be better at killing flies, leapers, resurrecting zombies, leeches, and other small, annoying enemies in boss door/treasure rooms where you have to kill all the enemies. And some bosses like Fistula. Another potential advantage of BrimChoco would be that I could get more keys/bombs/hearts from actually clearing rooms. Fetus runs go dry on keys fast.

[url=http://marsh.speedrunwiki.com/Binding%20of%20Isaac/BoI_marsh_TestRun13m47s.mp4]Here's that old 13:47 run I was talking about a couple pages back[/url]. Right click save as.

Could be much better obviously which is why I never submitted it but I figure it could be useful to put out there. I was still learning some things back then (e.g. whether dice will change a cube of meat into something else). I should've used the dice on the lipstick from the first boss. And for the Mom 1 battle I need to shoot the bomb out as the shadow starts to get bigger. My timing in that fight was really bad. Ditto for some of the Monstro battles. If I didn't waste the dice on the Gish item then I could've used it on the Belt in Depths II instead. And you can see how I get frustrated sometimes trying to open the doors with the bombs. Point blank and sometimes it bounces off, other times not. Sometimes if things are really hectic I just lay an actual bomb. The Womb II pathing really torpedoed the run. I enter at 10:34 and don't get to the boss until 13:04.

BrimChoco would be better at killing flies, leapers, resurrecting zombies, leeches, and other small, annoying enemies in boss door/treasure rooms where you have to kill all the enemies. And some bosses like Fistula. Another potential advantage of BrimChoco would be that I could get more keys/bombs/hearts from actually clearing rooms. Fetus runs go dry on keys fast.

Onin

Edit history:

Onin: 2011-11-06 11:44:15 am

Onin: 2011-11-06 11:39:23 am

Onin: 2011-11-06 07:22:12 am

2011-11-06 07:03:54 am

You didn't have Mr Mega on the Fetus attempt, so I wouldn't take that time as even close to perfect.

The 13:47 run seems to confirm Brimstone as a far safer alternative. You only barely managed to kill both Mom and It Lives with half a heart left, and no way you'd survive Sheol that way.

I just had the weirdest run with ???. At some point (I wish I knew when) I became immune to damage. Items I got were Odd Mushroom (attack speed version), Boom!, one cube of meat, Gish, and Brimstone. The only other thing I cna think of that might've caused it is using a Full Health pill when you're missing half a soul heart. How cool would it be if it were abusable Shocked

SkratMan

2011-11-06 12:58:11 pm

[+--oo] In control since '86

Quote from Onin:

I just had the weirdest run with ???. At some point (I wish I knew when) I became immune to damage.

This has been brought up on the Steam forums, too. I don't think anyone's figured out exactly what causes it. This short thread collected a couple item sets people had and theorizes something about health up pills, and the bugs thread on the first page might give more details.

Onin

Edit history:

Onin: 2011-11-06 05:11:53 pm

2011-11-06 05:09:40 pm

I can confirm Full Health pill turns Huh?

invincible. Not sure if it's dependent on half-hearts, as it for some reason restores your base 3 soul hearts anyway.
HOWEVER: Certain effects seem to cancel the invincibility. The Strength card is one of them.

Full Health pills are kinda hard to manipulate, though, so I doubt it's useful for a speedrun.

holydiver42

2011-11-07 06:55:48 pm

Everybody DANCE!

While I'm not planning to try to speedrun this game, I will say that I got the Brimstone + Chocolate Milk combo today, and it is amazing. I probably blazed through The Depths and The Womb in five minutes (this is only the second time I've beaten the game). Getting the compass and map helped a lot, too. I haven't felt this satisfied in beating a game in a while.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-08 10:31:50 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-08 10:25:13 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-08 10:24:02 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-08 10:23:52 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-08 10:23:18 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-08 10:21:42 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-08 10:17:05 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-08 10:16:52 pm

2011-11-08 10:16:19 pm

Jack of all Trades

Sub ten minutes is possible. I had a run where I got fetus basement 1, shovel from the devil room in basement 2, and go to Satan and died. I even got a Mega on depths II, although that only seems to save a couple seconds on the bosses. But I played stupidly after getting the shovel (didn't rush to charge it). I think with shovel + fetus + emperor card 9:30ish could be in reach. If I had finished my run I'd have gotten about 11:15 or so.

After a run like that now even a good fetus run will feel subpar unless I get to each boss inside of 6 rooms. Fetus but no shovel from devil/secret room = not good enough now? Sigh... Sad

Skipping most of the bosses with the shovel is kinda lame from a viewer's perspective IMO. I almost feel like there should be a no shovel category.

Onin

2011-11-09 08:10:04 am

Update notes:

-Fixed halloween save issues
-Fixed more bugs with brimstone
-Balanced some overpowered combos

Brim+Choco is out, I presume?

ralle32

2011-11-09 09:37:05 am

for sure brimstone has been nerfed a whole lot itself. Feels like it's doing half the damage it's done before.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-11 11:00:55 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-11 11:00:45 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-11 11:00:04 pm

marshmallow: 2011-11-11 10:59:21 pm

2011-11-11 10:58:29 pm

Jack of all Trades

Tidbits:

- Dice changes every item in the devil room. Dice needs 3 rooms to charge so it may be worth it go out of your way to charge it if looking for the shovel.

- Early on when looking for the shovel don't get soul hearts because the devil may offer the shovel for 3 SH when you only have one or two and you'll be a sad panda.

- Pretty sure not getting hit by the boss makes the devil room show up a lot more often.

- Don't get the inner eye item with fetus, it'll dramatically lower your rate of fire for no gain (you don't shoot 3 bombs or anything cool) and basically kill the run.

- This may be confirmation bias on my part but on basement 1 it seems like the treasure room is usually up. Either up in the starting area or the north door in any room. Or if not the first room up it'll be connected to that room.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-15 04:02:58 am

marshmallow: 2011-11-15 04:02:02 am

marshmallow: 2011-11-15 04:00:52 am

marshmallow: 2011-11-15 04:00:38 am

marshmallow: 2011-11-15 04:00:23 am

2011-11-15 03:58:47 am

Jack of all Trades

A 15m30s no shovel run. Right click save as.

Just figured I'd upload it for the lulz since I actually got to Satan and killed him. No shovel but I figured I'd keep playing for practice if nothing else. The homing bombs really threw me off doing the first Mom fight. And there were several little dumb things, but meh.

I still haven't seen a shovel in the secret rooms of basement 1 or 2. There's rarely an item at all, but if there is it's either a 1-up or a Book of Belial. I'm starting to think I should just bank on there being a devil room.

Here are the arrival times from my nightmare inducing failed shovel run:

Basement 2 = 0:42
Caves 1 = 2:16
Caves 2 = 2:20
Depths 1 = 4:09
Depths 2 = 4:40
Womb 1 = 6:32
Womb 2 = 7:55
Mom's Heart = 8:49
Sheol = 9:14
Satan = 10:11

Maybe I'll upload it later but man, it's embarrassing.

BlueGlass

2011-11-15 04:28:27 am

Yep yep yep!

Just wanted to point out, you can shovel right down to Sheol. No need to kill the Heart.

marshmallow

2011-11-15 07:34:46 pm

Jack of all Trades

Yeah I know but in that run I got to the boss within 3 ticks on the recharge meter, so killing the heart in 20 secs was faster than clearing three more rooms.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-19 07:16:34 pm

2011-11-19 07:15:20 pm

Jack of all Trades

My best shovel fail yet.

Arrive in Sheol ~8:17. Pretty much everything after caves1 is a PR for me.

Fatal (?) mistakes due to stupidity/overexicitedness:
Didn't use dice on coathanger to get potential health.
Didn't get potential blue hearts from the blue rock after the second boss.

General badness:
Most self bombing ever!
When I needed one more charge to the shovel I shouldn't have fought the Fistula mini-boss, he takes way too long to kill.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-11-20 10:12:16 am

2011-11-20 10:08:49 am

Jack of all Trades

12:47 run.

I got pretty much everything I could want (shovel, fetus, mega, emperor card) but I got a slow start, really late shovel (caves 2 secret room), bad room/enemy combos, and some really sloppy play in a couple of the womb rooms -- all somehow resulting in a new WR of 12:47. But I want sub-10:00.

Just to compare to my other failed shovel runs, I arrive in sheol in 11:48.

Onin

Edit history:

Onin: 2011-11-20 05:11:17 pm

2011-11-20 04:22:03 pm

I loved the part where you hesitated, took extra time to pick up Monstro's Tooth, it completely whiffed and you got a shovel afterward Cheesy

Can you actually find a second shovel in a secret room? I'm assuming that's why you kept checking them in the second run.

Fragmaster01

2011-11-20 08:51:28 pm

Wiggle wiggle

I'm thinking strategy wise, focus on getting either Dr. Fetus or Chocolate Milk first. If CM, then try for Brimstone in devil room thereafter. if DF, play as normal. The shovel is nice, but DF is horrible for actually clearing rooms by the Womb, due to burrowing enemies, and the shovel enforces clearing 6 rooms.

Still, getting better, I enjoy muchly. *munches popcorn*

BlueGlass

2011-11-21 09:30:47 am

Yep yep yep!

You do know they nerfed BrimChoco, right? But if we're talking other options, Mom's Knife is stupidly overpowered if you can use it properly.

The biggest advantage of Dr. Fetus, more than the damage and room clearing, is the infinite bombs. Depending on the room, it could be much quicker to run right through rather than clear it, especially in Sheol.

One thing I would suggest strategy-wise is to check a shop if you're nearby and have the money. The 9-volt would speed things up drastically, and even the battery could be of some help.