Binding of Isaac

2012-01-19 12:31:36 am

Just had my first successful run. Got about 12:06. I spent too much time collecting coins, but it would have paid off if I'd found one of the batteries in a shop. Instead I got Bobby-Bomb and Odd Mushroom (thin), which were nice but probably didn't save enough time to be worth it. I'm not sure exactly what I was hoping to find on Basement 1 when I didn't go straight to the boss room. And I need to remember that bombs bounce off the right wall and that I can't d6 things after picking up the shovel. Otherwise, suggestions and criticism welcome.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/user/NMS127

I had another in between where I got to Sheol but died after a few rooms at around 10:30.

By the way, has anyone tried a Mom's Knife run? It seems similarly overpowered.

KhanFusion

Edit history:

KhanFusion: 2012-01-19 01:19:58 am

KhanFusion: 2012-01-19 01:19:48 am

KhanFusion: 2012-01-19 01:19:39 am

2012-01-19 01:19:25 am

Ok, so the game is packed in an exe file and I couldn't get a swf file out of it, however there is an online demo on newgrounds that can be downloaded and examined by Flash Decompiler. But you'll need a flash developer to figure it out, because a casual look only reveals hundreds, if not thousands of interwined frames, sprites and small scripts.

André

Edit history:

André: 2012-01-19 07:55:19 am

2012-01-19 07:50:42 am

Main Work!!!

Pretty good job but have you seen the Marsh run where he die in Sheol but the run was totally perfect, just because of that run, it raise the level of submission a bit for this game because he show up to where luck can be abuse in a run.

While talking of abusing of luck,
Here's my (best situation) strat for the boss in my low% run(now I'm doing what you said stealth(erase data between every attempt Tongue

)):

Basement 1: grab a Chariot to kill montro or duke of fly
Basement 2: having at least 2 bombs to 1 or 2 hit Larry jr.(chariot or Death could also be efficient there).
Cave 1: NMS strat against Gurdy, in the best scenario, I have 8 bombs and/or death or chariot or High Priestess card.
Cave 2: Fistula is a pretty easy fight without any Item so could be very nice to encounter him here.
Depths 1 : Monstro 2 is also my favorite depths boss without Item, he's pretty easy aside from the fly.
Depths 2 : NMS strat against mom and I need to have a High priestess card or a death card.

it's pretty rare that I can make it to mom without dying so I'll try to get at least one run to post it in here so people can see what it looks like.

Also, fun fact, I know it would be pretty slow but did you know that if you D6 a lump of coal after beating Krampus in the Devil's Room, you can get any of the devil Item but without a heart cost.

Pretty good job but have you seen the Marsh run where he die in Sheol but the run was totally perfect, just because of that run, it raise the level of submission a bit for this game because he show up to where luck can be abuse in a run.

While talking of abusing of luck,
Here's my (best situation) strat for the boss in my low% run(now I'm doing what you said stealth(erase data between every attempt :P )):

Basement 1: grab a Chariot to kill montro or duke of fly
Basement 2: having at least 2 bombs to 1 or 2 hit Larry jr.(chariot or Death could also be efficient there).
Cave 1: NMS strat against Gurdy, in the best scenario, I have 8 bombs and/or death or chariot or High Priestess card.
Cave 2: Fistula is a pretty easy fight without any Item so could be very nice to encounter him here.
Depths 1 : Monstro 2 is also my favorite depths boss without Item, he's pretty easy aside from the fly.
Depths 2 : NMS strat against mom and I need to have a High priestess card or a death card.

it's pretty rare that I can make it to mom without dying so I'll try to get at least one run to post it in here so people can see what it looks like.

Also, fun fact, I know it would be pretty slow but did you know that if you D6 a lump of coal after beating Krampus in the Devil's Room, you can get any of the devil Item but without a heart cost.

Stealth

2012-01-19 03:17:05 pm

^You can also use the Unicorn item to buy a devil item without paying for it. I don't know how often this comes up, but it could be good if he sells stats ups and such.

André

2012-01-20 01:33:06 am

Main Work!!!

Quote from Stealth:

^You can also use the Unicorn item to buy a devil item without paying for it. I don't know how often this comes up, but it could be good if he sells stats ups and such.

IIRC, this glitch have been fix recently.

marshmallow

2012-01-22 08:38:08 pm

Jack of all Trades

Haven't done a BoI run since December and probably won't for awhile if ever. RNG is a PITA and there's gonna be another expansion anyway. Using NMS's file with minimal unlocks is probably the sanest idea but it seems weird. The categories for the game are gonna be borked.

André

2012-01-22 10:17:17 pm

Main Work!!!

Personally, I think the category should be:
1-Any%(file should be erase before a playthrough)
2-Low%(same)
3-NG+Any%(should be done after the 10th playthrough )
4-NG+low%(should be done after the 10th playthrough (please god! don't tell me someone is actually going to eventually try this)).
5-NG+Any% with shovel(but in my opinion this shouldn't be a separate category since it's in the game so if you have the occasion to have it then use it).

Quote from marshmallow:

RNG is a PITA

Hell Yeah it is!!!

I don't know if I really understood your

Quote from marshmallow:

The categories for the game are gonna be borked.

But I hope yes.

NMS

2012-01-24 09:46:06 pm

Just got an 11:22, which I guess is a record. Still a lot of time wasting decisions, bad fights against Wrath and Death's horse, and some bad luck running into Envy and also a Fistula in the room before Satan. But I was hilariously fast by the end. I beat Satan with no damage in about 33 seconds.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/user/NMS127

Also, note to self: don't do this:

Attachment:

doh.mp4

André

2012-01-25 12:18:45 pm

Main Work!!!

Sorry about this but I laugh so hard when I saw you picking back your dice during the transition.

About your run, Great job overall, the only considerable mistakes in my opinion are:
-You look very unsure on almost every places in the game(what will create a good speedrun of this game is simply look like you know everything you're doing in a game that is 100% random.
-I already said this to Marsh but in Cave 1 you went aside the boss room thrice with your shovel in hand, since at that moment, you just had the shovel, it was already filled up and you could have beat the boss and use it at the beginning of the next floor and if you would have done this at the first time you passed aside the boss room, you would have save a lot of time.

Aside from these two points, continue like this and your run will become totally insane.
great job thumbsup

!!!

hhallahh

Edit history:

hhallahh: 2012-01-28 09:41:26 pm

2012-01-28 09:37:40 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

This runs have some pretty amazing luck manipulation involved, any plans on submitting them? 11:xx is really good, maybe sub-10 is the salient point you want to beat but I think things are sufficiently impressive already. I mean, there's never really going to be a perfect run here so you might as well throw in the ones you have. Yes, it's going to have people heading down dead ends and visibly pausing to consider where to go next, but that's fine. Speedrunning is about completing the game fast even if you don't always look cool doing it.

NMS

2012-01-28 11:14:47 pm

Thanks. I agree there's never going to be a perfect run (unless it's a TAS consisting mostly of using telepills to teleport to the I AM ERROR room). But considering how soon after I started trying actual runs I began getting decent ones, and how much faster we know it could reasonably be, I think I'll hold out for something a bit better. I haven't been trying the last few days, but I'll get back to it at some point.

As for the way I played Caves 1, I got distracted by trying to get into the item room or buy something from the shop, but then remembered that I'd already switched the dice for the shovel and couldn't reroll without going back and forth to the secret room. So I decided to go on but forgot I was right at the boss. I need to learn to control my tendency to obsess over items and stop spending time looking once I have a decent set. It worked out well anyway because of how quickly I found the Caves 2 and Womb 1 bosses. Still, I think it's worth spending a few seconds thinking here and there if it avoids mistakes like that.

Thanks. I agree there's never going to be a perfect run (unless it's a TAS consisting mostly of using telepills to teleport to the I AM ERROR room). But considering how soon after I started trying actual runs I began getting decent ones, and how much faster we know it could reasonably be, I think I'll hold out for something a bit better. I haven't been trying the last few days, but I'll get back to it at some point.

As for the way I played Caves 1, I got distracted by trying to get into the item room or buy something from the shop, but then remembered that I'd already switched the dice for the shovel and couldn't reroll without going back and forth to the secret room. So I decided to go on but forgot I was right at the boss. I need to learn to control my tendency to obsess over items and stop spending time looking once I have a decent set. It worked out well anyway because of how quickly I found the Caves 2 and Womb 1 bosses. Still, I think it's worth spending a few seconds thinking here and there if it avoids mistakes like that.

Onin

2012-01-29 03:53:40 pm

It's not just about getting a good time. It's about getting an attempt that is sufficiently well executed to pass quality control. It's pretty much impossible to judge what time is required for a speedrun record, but it's very easy to see whether someone wasted precious seconds doing something dumb or redundant. It'd take a 10.xx or faster run with near-perfect execution (minor errors out of caution allowing) to pass judgement.

hhallahh

Edit history:

hhallahh: 2012-01-29 10:43:36 pm

2012-01-29 10:39:15 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

But that's the concern. There's a much looser correlation between an objectively-good run and a polished-looking run here than probably any other game I can think of that's been speedrunned on this site. If quality control rejects fast runs that "look bad" and would accept a slower run that "looks good", then quality control is being stupid. The fastest run we will get will still have wasted seconds, because most of the variance in outcome is not due to being able to never get hit or never make a wrong turn, it's about getting godly items quickly, not heading in a completely-wrong direction (often by luck), having boss rooms spawn close to the starting location, etc.

Though admittedly the current top runs already have really good luck and the variation in marginal improvements will probably come more from better execution. But better execution can easily be outweighed by an additional good tarot card, or better level layouts, or any number of factors that shouldn't be outweighed in importance by a requirement of having to look polished.

The constructive bit of advice I have here is that imo runs that start off in a bad direction should be restarted. ie. if you end up backtracking to the starting room from a dead end, you might as well reset the game unless something amazing happened in the intervening rooms (unlikely.) However, if we say that every time a wrong room is entered the run should be reset, then I'd guess you're asking for a one-in-a-million if not a one-in-a-billion run.

But that's the concern. There's a much looser correlation between an objectively-good run and a polished-looking run here than probably any other game I can think of that's been speedrunned on this site. If quality control rejects fast runs that "look bad" and would accept a slower run that "looks good", then quality control is being stupid. The fastest run we will get will still have wasted seconds, because most of the variance in outcome is not due to being able to never get hit or never make a wrong turn, it's about getting godly items quickly, not heading in a completely-wrong direction (often by luck), having boss rooms spawn close to the starting location, etc.

Though admittedly the current top runs already have really good luck and the variation in marginal improvements will probably come more from better execution. But better execution can easily be outweighed by an additional good tarot card, or better level layouts, or any number of factors that shouldn't be outweighed in importance by a requirement of having to look polished.

The constructive bit of advice I have here is that imo runs that start off in a bad direction should be restarted. ie. if you end up backtracking to the starting room from a dead end, you might as well reset the game unless something amazing happened in the intervening rooms (unlikely.) However, if we say that every time a wrong room is entered the run should be reset, then I'd guess you're asking for a one-in-a-million if not a one-in-a-billion run.

André

Edit history:

André: 2012-01-29 10:44:38 pm

2012-01-29 10:43:55 pm

Main Work!!!

I agree but I'm also pretty sure sub-10 can be achieved and a sub-10 run that look like he know what he's doing with a small amount of movement mistake would be perfect and achievable in my opinion, what you said about the bad direction, I agree but a run who grab the good items fast and finish fast but had a dead end and a medium long way in cave 2 shouldn't be restart in example if it only happen once in the run.

holydiver42

Edit history:

holydiver42: 2012-05-28 10:13:33 pm

2012-05-28 09:07:59 pm

Everybody DANCE!

I think this topic needs a bump because of the DLC that was released today. Wrath of the Lamb is $3 and nearly doubles the amount of content. Also, there are some Challenges that have been added, one of which starts you off with Dr. Fetus. I think this could really help anyone thinking about speedrunning the game, as it will cut way down on the number of restarts. This mode, however, also starts Isaac with the Doctor's Remote instead of the D6, so no rerolls at the start. Should prove very interesting.

EDIT: I just beat the Doctor's Revenge Challenge (the one previously mentioned), and after defeating It Lives, I unlocked the Mega Fetus...I wonder what that could possibly do...HMMM...

Also, holy crap there are a ton of new items, some of them crazy powerful. It'll be fun discovering what all these new items do.

NMS

2012-05-28 10:30:09 pm

Yeah, I've been meaning to post here. I'd like to try Wrath of the Lamb but I'm a bit worried about it being non-removable. I guess it would be a separate category, but I'd like to be able to go back. Anyone with experience maintaining multiple versions of steam games want to give me some tips? Or if I get it with another account but play on the same computer, would they stay separate?

Are the challenges different from the regular game other than starting out with different items and stats the way different characters do? Whether the characters should be separate categories is already debatable (I would lean towards yes, although I doubt most of them would get runs), but would the challenges also be new categories?

Sadly, I haven't been able to improve my best run. I try now and then until I get frustrated. I've had several good attempts, including an early shovel run similar to marsh's where I died in Sheol and a 12:36 no shovel run (treasure map plus compass is amazing, but I got them a bit late). I'm considering submitting my 11:22.

Yeah, I've been meaning to post here. I'd like to try Wrath of the Lamb but I'm a bit worried about it being non-removable. I guess it would be a separate category, but I'd like to be able to go back. Anyone with experience maintaining multiple versions of steam games want to give me some tips? Or if I get it with another account but play on the same computer, would they stay separate?

Are the challenges different from the regular game other than starting out with different items and stats the way different characters do? Whether the characters should be separate categories is already debatable (I would lean towards yes, although I doubt most of them would get runs), but would the challenges also be new categories?

Sadly, I haven't been able to improve my best run. I try now and then until I get frustrated. I've had several good attempts, including an early shovel run similar to marsh's where I died in Sheol and a 12:36 no shovel run (treasure map plus compass is amazing, but I got them a bit late). I'm considering submitting my 11:22.

holydiver42

Edit history:

holydiver42: 2012-05-30 03:24:19 pm

holydiver42: 2012-05-29 01:28:57 am

2012-05-28 11:24:21 pm

Everybody DANCE!

I read (or heard, can't remember ATM) that the DLC is non-removable, so I'm not sure if you'd need a different account or what.

I didn't realize until I was about halfway through the Doctor's Revenge that there were no item rooms. And I've tried a couple of other challenges, and yes, they're all very different. For example, one gets rid of the map entirely. If anyone would want to speedrun the challenges, I would think they would be different categories. At least, the ones I've tried so far.

EDIT: It probably isn't as practical as Dr. Fetus, but Technology 2 is hideously broken. I managed to couple that with Money = Power and somehow gather a huge sum of cash to basically destroy everything, including the (final) final boss.

SPOILERS BELOW

The final boss is Isaac. With my combination of powers he was only alive for about six seconds, but it seemed like he had three forms with one lifebar. The first was him crying in the center of the screen, with a huge stream of tears. When I did enough damage, a light shone down and he stood up. I didn't see this form, because my laser took his health down fast enough where he turned to a third form with wings. Again, that was only on screen for about a second before he died. I got the D20 as a reward. I'm very curious as to what that does.

I wasn't going for speed, but if you want to watch me fight the final boss (and the broken power combo), here's a stream I just recorded (no commentary):

http://www.twitch.tv/holydiver42sda/b/319700098

I die about 6 minues in, so you can skip that (unless you're curious about new items and such. If you only want to watch the final boss fight, skip to about 41:45. I'll probably be streaming attempts of the game (though not speedrunning) for a while, in case you're on the fence about buying the DLC. I think it's totally worth it, especially for the new content and possibilities for completely broken item combos.

EDIT 2: There's another item comparable to Dr. Fetus called Ipecac, which fires poison bombs in the air. It's a little tougher to control than Dr. Fetus, but if you're looking for speed, it's definitely useable to blast open doors and kill enemies quickly. I have noted that if you fire a shot and you're near a rock, it will hit the rock and explode instead of flying over the rock (which is weird because it flies over enemies that are on the ground), so it's probably wise to be careful with it. Point is, we now have two items that cause Isaac's tears to become bombs. Still haven't found Mega Fetus yet...

I read (or heard, can't remember ATM) that the DLC is non-removable, so I'm not sure if you'd need a different account or what.

I didn't realize until I was about halfway through the Doctor's Revenge that there were no item rooms.  And I've tried a couple of other challenges, and yes, they're all very different.  For example, one gets rid of the map entirely.  If anyone would want to speedrun the challenges, I would think they would be different categories.  At least, the ones I've tried so far.

EDIT: It probably isn't as practical as Dr. Fetus, but Technology 2 is hideously broken.  I managed to couple that with Money = Power and somehow gather a huge sum of cash to basically destroy everything, including the (final) final boss.

SPOILERS BELOW
[hidden]The final boss is Isaac.  With my combination of powers he was only alive for about six seconds, but it seemed like he had three forms with one lifebar.  The first was him crying in the center of the screen, with a huge stream of tears.  When I did enough damage, a light shone down and he stood up.  I didn't see this form, because my laser took his health down fast enough where he turned to a third form with wings.  Again, that was only on screen for about a second before he died.  I got the D20 as a reward.  I'm very curious as to what that does.[/hidden]

I wasn't going for speed, but if you want to watch me fight the final boss (and the broken power combo), here's a stream I just recorded (no commentary):

http://www.twitch.tv/holydiver42sda/b/319700098

I die about 6 minues in, so you can skip that (unless you're curious about new items and such.  If you only want to watch the final boss fight, skip to about 41:45.  I'll probably be streaming attempts of the game (though not speedrunning) for a while, in case you're on the fence about buying the DLC.  I think it's totally worth it, especially for the new content and possibilities for completely broken item combos.

EDIT 2: There's another item comparable to Dr. Fetus called Ipecac, which fires poison bombs in the air.  It's a little tougher to control than Dr. Fetus, but if you're looking for speed, it's definitely useable to blast open doors and kill enemies quickly.  I have noted that if you fire a shot and you're near a rock, it will hit the rock and explode instead of flying over the rock (which is weird because it flies over enemies that are on the ground), so it's probably wise to be careful with it.  Point is, we now have two items that cause Isaac's tears to become bombs.  Still haven't found Mega Fetus yet...

HiipFire

2012-05-30 03:34:41 pm

Ipecac is bad, the travel speed is sooooo slow and the blast radius makes you hit yourself alot.

holydiver42

2012-05-30 06:06:27 pm

Everybody DANCE!

It actually is a pretty awkward power to use. I was just pointing it out as something that you could use to bomb through doors and skip rooms quickly. Dr. Fetus is still the best for powering through rooms quickly.

Onin

2012-05-30 06:20:30 pm

Epic Fetus is significantly better than Dr. Fetus. Bigger radius, higher damage and complete accuracy. It doesn't even need any other upgrades, either, unlike Dr. Fetus.

I love the Prayer Card too, guaranteed free heart container on every single level. Probably not necessary for a speedrun though.

holydiver42

2012-05-30 11:08:47 pm

Everybody DANCE!

You are completely right on both counts. I just got Epic Fetus today, and holy crap it's powerful. Every shot is a Doctor's Remote shot. Being able to aim a bomb in eight directions instead of four should make for some fun times. I wonder, however, if it's only a secret room item (since that's where I found it).

Onin

2012-05-31 05:25:22 am

You can aim Epic Fetus with the mouse. Click the door, door opens. So easy.

CrypticJacknife

2012-06-01 08:42:03 am

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Challenges just made regular play nerfed! Oooh boy Cheesy

Onin

2012-06-01 01:52:13 pm

Seems indeed like the Epic Fetus is a secret room only item. That's slightly annoying seeing as the Shovel is most reliable to get from a secret room as well. So either you'd need to have the amazing luck to find both of them on the first two levels, or you'd have to settle with the good old Dr Fetus and Shovel combo.

Epic Fetus certainly is the item of choice for a Shovelless run, if we do decide to run such a category.

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2012-06-06 11:13:53 am

2012-06-06 11:13:24 am

Jack of all Trades

I've been having fun with Wrath. The number of potential categories got a huge bump with the challenge modes, the player being able to select his last level, the new character, and even the last boss of the Cathedral can vary. And there's going to be another small content patch this week.