Binding of Isaac

marshmallow

Edit history:

marshmallow: 2011-12-08 09:24:32 pm

marshmallow: 2011-12-08 09:23:56 pm

marshmallow: 2011-12-08 09:21:46 pm

marshmallow: 2011-12-08 09:20:43 pm

marshmallow: 2011-12-08 09:17:54 pm

marshmallow: 2011-12-08 09:16:28 pm

marshmallow: 2011-12-08 09:16:01 pm

2011-12-08 09:15:28 pm

Jack of all Trades

The run that would have set me free.

This is the nightmare scenario where everything pretty much goes perfectly except I don't have an appropriate card for sheol and I get lost and die. Or a battery, but I've never had one of those so eh. But this was much faster than any of my other videos. Which was funny since I got the shovel by a fluke in caves 1.

Times:
Basement 2 = 44s
Caves 1 = 1:26
Caves 2 = 1:40
Depths 1 = 2:50 <-- I found the caves 2 boss fast and got to 'save' the shovel and skip depths 1
Depths 2 = 2:54
Womb 1 = 4:07
Womb 2 = 5:52 <-- friendliest rooms ever, so many grouped up enemies
Sheol = 6:57 <-- woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
DIE = 7:37

Gonna go cry myself to sleep now.

André

2011-12-08 09:28:02 pm

Main Work!!!

OH no! that's very sad, it was a very nice run!!! hope you're gonna have some like this later.

Quote from marshmallow:

Gonna go cry myself to sleep now.

Like Isaac Tongue

. good night!!!

Imperfect

2011-12-08 09:44:20 pm

Wow so it looks like sub-8 minutes is possible with incredible luck. So much luck involved in finding items and getting good rooms. Hope you get a run you are satisfied with soon!

Fragmaster01

2011-12-09 09:27:54 am

Wiggle wiggle

Quote from marshmallow:

Gonna go cry myself to sleep now.

Don't worry, we're laughing at you, not with you. Wait...

That video sums up why I had no desire to try running it myself. So much wonderful gameplay once the game decides to stop throwing you constant zombie rooms... then it falls apart when the Random Number God decides to sit on you.

André

2011-12-13 07:51:07 am

Main Work!!!

Hey Marsh, I don't know if you have a trick against Gurdy but he's my greatest preoccupation(from what I can see up to now I never made a run without encountering him in cave(either 1 or 2)). A lot of my good low% run have been destroyed because of him. Here's one of my example(probably one of my best attempt but I've been killed in cave 1 by Gurdy).

Attachment:

Isaac vs gurdy-_-.mov

NMS

2011-12-13 01:53:03 pm

I find the safest way to deal with Gurdy is to shoot him from below but as far to one side as possible. Watch his head and when it disappears inside him, move towards the wall and up. He'll shoot down and miss completely.

André

Edit history:

André: 2011-12-13 02:27:17 pm

2011-12-13 02:27:06 pm

Main Work!!!

Thank you, I'll try this on a couple of attempts in a couple of minutes, at the moment I think my low% strat is going to be:

-Basement 1: Grab as many bomb as I can, gather 5 coins and a key and find tarot card. encounter with either duke of flies or monstro.(restart until I don't have either a lot of bombs or the boss room in less than 3 rooms.
-Basement 2: Same as basement 1(except 3 rooms)
-Cave 1: If I don't have a minimum of 8 bombs, pray to have peep like boss on this one so I can have Gurdy on the next level.
-Cave 2: Finding Gurdy and kill him with 8 bombs(shooting him constantly trying to follow NMS strat).
-Depths 1: Since I want monstro in the basement, there's a higher chance of encountering monstro 2 but in the best scenario I fight against Loki(against either of them I hope I'm gonna have some bombs left).
-Depths 2: Mom: Using the Tarot card (The High Priestess) to wipe half her Health and the trying to survive till the end of the fight.
Overall:
-At the moment I have 5 coins and a key, I start lurking for shop to buy tarot card(wishing for a High Priestess)
-If it happen that I have at least 7 coins and that there's no tarot card, if there's a bomb I buy it.
-In the worst scenario, if in depths 2 I have a death card I keep my run since it can be useful against mom.

Thank you, I'll try this on a couple of attempts in a couple of minutes, at the moment I think my low% strat is going to be:

-Basement 1: Grab as many bomb as I can, gather 5 coins and a key and find tarot card. encounter with either duke of flies or monstro.(restart until I don't have either a lot of bombs or the boss room in less than 3 rooms.
-Basement 2: Same as basement 1(except 3 rooms)
-Cave 1: If I don't have a minimum of 8 bombs, pray to have peep like boss on this one so I can have Gurdy on the next level.
-Cave 2: Finding Gurdy and kill him with 8 bombs(shooting him constantly trying to follow NMS strat).
-Depths 1: Since I want monstro in the basement, there's a higher chance of encountering monstro 2 but in the best scenario I fight against Loki(against either of them I hope I'm gonna have some bombs left).
-Depths 2: Mom: Using the Tarot card (The High Priestess) to wipe half her Health and the trying to survive till the end of the fight.
Overall:
-At the moment I have 5 coins and a key, I start lurking for shop to buy tarot card(wishing for a High Priestess)
-If it happen that I have at least 7 coins and that there's no tarot card, if there's a bomb I buy it.
-In the worst scenario, if in depths 2 I have a death card I keep my run since it can be useful against mom.

NMS

2011-12-19 02:56:54 pm

Since no one has mentioned it and I haven't seen it in any videos so far, you may not know that Mom can step on herself, dealing half her health just like the High Priestess card. I haven't figured out if there's a way to manipulate this reliably because if you stay near a door too long, she'll slap you instead of stomping. But it may just be a matter of timing.

Also, it seems like it would be worth picking up nickels, or even large groups of pennies in secret rooms so you can check shops. The Battery or 9-Volt could save a lot of time. The wiki says the Battery adds a charge every 20 seconds, but in my experience it actually varies between about 12 and about 17. So if you get an early shovel, either one could reduce the time you spend clearing rooms to charge it by almost half.

André

2011-12-19 03:19:33 pm

Main Work!!!

Quote from NMS:

Since no one has mentioned it and I haven't seen it in any videos so far, you may not know that Mom can step on herself, dealing half her health just like the High Priestess card. I haven't figured out if there's a way to manipulate this reliably because if you stay near a door too long, she'll slap you instead of stomping. But it may just be a matter of timing.

No I didn't we could manipulate mom to step on herself. that's the reason why I wanted a High Priestess so much.

marshmallow

2011-12-20 07:26:56 pm

Jack of all Trades

I hope the Xmas Steam Sale DLC gimmick with the secret boss randomly replacing a Satan room doesn't last forever.

André

2011-12-20 08:36:46 pm

Main Work!!!

So that was the update, didn't test it out since. I'll go see what it look like and hope it won't break any of your future speedrun :S .

Stealth

2011-12-24 04:52:26 pm

@ marshmallow haha wow that's godly luck, nice run too.

I've been thinking about running this, since I put a lot of hours into it and I really like it.

I think the 'cleanest' way to run this is to clear the save data and play as Isaac. That way, everyone starts out with exactly the same items and chances, because nothing is unlocked yet. This seems the fairest.
This would however result in quite a slow run, because you won't have access to the overpowered D6, Shovel, Fetus, Brimstone and Mom's Knife items, among many others. Also it would end in Depths 2, therefore not showing the arguably hardest stages of the game.

I don't think trying for any secret rooms is a good idea, unless you know 100% certain where they are. Past Depths 2, they seem too useless because the best they'll give is a:

1up (terrible for speedruns),
Transcendence (useful, but probably not worth the chances),
Bob's head (terrible for any run) or
cents (worthless with no more shops to go to)

Also, Mom won't reliably step on herself. I've tried that countless times, think it worked three times in total. The time the foot comes down seems too random, although there's definitely some consistency to it.

@ marshmallow haha wow that's godly luck, nice run too.

I've been thinking about running this, since I put a lot of hours into it and I really like it.

I think the 'cleanest' way to run this is to clear the save data and play as Isaac. That way, everyone starts out with exactly the same items and chances, because nothing is unlocked yet. This seems the fairest.
This would however result in quite a slow run, because you won't have access to the overpowered  D6, Shovel, Fetus, Brimstone and Mom's Knife items, among many others. Also it would end in Depths 2, therefore not showing the arguably hardest stages of the game.

I don't think trying for any secret rooms is a good idea, unless you know 100% certain where they are. Past Depths 2, they seem too useless because the best they'll give is a:

1up (terrible for speedruns), 
Transcendence (useful, but probably not worth the chances), 
Bob's head (terrible for any run)  or 
cents (worthless with no more shops to go to)

Also, Mom won't reliably step on herself. I've tried that countless times, think it worked three times in total. The time the foot comes down seems too random, although there's definitely some consistency to it.

André

2011-12-24 05:09:35 pm

Main Work!!!

Stealth, Marsh is doing a kind of NG+(since he access to all the possible item) so he doesn't need to clear his data and I'm doing a low% so it doesn't matter for me since I don't grab anything and I start from a new file(as soon as I beat mom I restart a new file to have up to depths 2). If you or someone else would like to attempt a any%, yes that would be the cleanest way.

Marsh, I'm not sure but look like the DLC of satan room is there to stay :S .

Stealth

2011-12-24 05:11:31 pm

Alright, I was more thinking of doing low% too so it was just a suggestion. =)

André

Edit history:

André: 2011-12-24 11:09:37 pm

2011-12-24 05:12:42 pm

Main Work!!!

Yeah I know I agree with you but with like 200 attempt in 3 hours it would be sad to clear my file every time -_-.

NMS

2011-12-26 10:35:10 pm

Assuming you don't need to start with a specific set of unlocked items (since the only other reasonable options would be everything unlocked and fresh file), then it would make sense to try to sculpt an item set that would maximize your chances of finding the items you want in a speedrun. This seems like it would consist of unlocking Dr. Fetus, Mr. Mega, d6 (probably), and as few other items as possible. As far as I can tell from the wiki here's what you'd have to do:

Do:
-beat the Womb 5 times: Dr. Fetus
-destroy 10 X rocks: Mr. Mega
-beat the Womb 10 times (defeat It Lives): Huh?

-beat the Womb with Huh?

: d6

Do not:
-destroy several poops
-beat Sheol
-make two deals with the Devil in one game
-have 7 heart containers
-have 55 pennies
-beat the Womb with Eve
-beat the game with Maggy, Judas, or Cain (Eve, Maggy, and Cain shouldn't be unlocked anyway)
-defeat all Basement, Caves, or Depths bosses
-defeat all 7 sins
-defeat any horsemen
-take the items from Steven, C.H.A.D., or Gish
-use the Bible on Mom or Mom’s Heart/It Lives
-visit arcades many times
-use blood donation machines many times
-use Death cards several (3?) times
-die 100 times
-collect two of Roid Rage, The Virus, or Growth Hormones in one game
-collect Mom’s Eye and another Mom’s item in one game
-collect two of Bob's Rotten Head, Guppy (dead cat), Max's Head, or Tammy's Head in one game

That would keep over 25 items off the list, which could improve your odds of finding things you want considerably.
Since you can back up your game state, you could play one game at a time trying to meet these conditions and resetting if you failed. Then you could start each run from this state.

It might be tricky, but I'd be willing to help if anyone wants to try.

Assuming you don't need to start with a specific set of unlocked items (since the only other reasonable options would be everything unlocked and fresh file), then it would make sense to try to sculpt an item set that would maximize your chances of finding the items you want in a speedrun. This seems like it would consist of unlocking Dr. Fetus, Mr. Mega, d6 (probably), and as few other items as possible. As far as I can tell from the wiki here's what you'd have to do:[hidden]Do:
-beat the Womb 5 times: Dr. Fetus
-destroy 10 X rocks: Mr. Mega
-beat the Womb 10 times (defeat It Lives): ???
-beat the Womb with ??? : d6

Do not:
-destroy several poops
-beat Sheol
-make two deals with the Devil in one game
-have 7 heart containers
-have 55 pennies
-beat the Womb with Eve
-beat the game with Maggy, Judas, or Cain (Eve, Maggy, and Cain shouldn't be unlocked anyway)
-defeat all Basement, Caves, or Depths bosses
-defeat all 7 sins
-defeat any horsemen
-take the items from Steven, C.H.A.D., or Gish
-use the Bible on Mom or Mom’s Heart/It Lives
-visit arcades many times
-use blood donation machines many times
-use Death cards several (3?) times
-die 100 times
-collect two of Roid Rage, The Virus, or Growth Hormones in one game
-collect Mom’s Eye and another Mom’s item in one game
-collect two of Bob's Rotten Head, Guppy (dead cat), Max's Head, or Tammy's Head in one game
[/hidden]

That would keep over 25 items off the list, which could improve your odds of finding things you want considerably.
Since you can back up your game state, you could play one game at a time trying to meet these conditions and resetting if you failed. Then you could start each run from this state.

It might be tricky, but I'd be willing to help if anyone wants to try.

NMS

Edit history:

NMS: 2012-01-18 02:01:13 am

2012-01-18 01:58:15 am

Well, I decided to go ahead with this quixotic project, and I'm finally done. I unlocked the d6 with only 3 "unnecessary" items: Mr. Mega (probably good), Small Rock (shouldn't matter very often), and Book of Revelations (because restarting every time I ran into a horseman was too ridiculous even for me). Save files attached. Maybe I'll try some actual running now.

I wrote some basic Java apps to back up and restore the save files quickly. If anyone wants them, I could modify them to work with user-specified file locations.

Also, here are a few tips that might help:

- When looking for a specific item on basement 1, it's probably faster to restart if you enter a room with any enemies that take more than a few seconds to kill before finding the item room.
- Items that max out your tears stat, like Number One or Odd Mushroom (thin) are good with Dr. Fetus. Supposedly, Technology also fires if you have both.
- As far as I've seen since I started checking, the boss room is always as far as possible from the starting room. If I'm right, this makes the Treasure Map even better than the Compass for finding it unless multiple rooms in totally different directions are tied for farthest.
- When fighting Mom, it's possible to sit beside a doorway far enough away that she can't slap you (her hand is narrower than it looks) but close enough that she can step on herself. It's not totally safe or reliable, but probably worth trying in as speedrun.

Well, I decided to go ahead with this quixotic project, and I'm finally done. I unlocked the d6 with only 3 "unnecessary" items: Mr. Mega (probably good), Small Rock (shouldn't matter very often), and Book of Revelations (because restarting every time I ran into a horseman was too ridiculous even for me). Save files attached. Maybe I'll try some actual running now.

I wrote some basic Java apps to back up and restore the save files quickly. If anyone wants them, I could modify them to work with user-specified file locations.

Also, here are a few tips that might help:

- When looking for a specific item on basement 1, it's probably faster to restart if you enter a room with any enemies that take more than a few seconds to kill before finding the item room.
- Items that max out your tears stat, like Number One or Odd Mushroom (thin) are good with Dr. Fetus. Supposedly, Technology also fires if you have both.
- As far as I've seen since I started checking, the boss room is always as far as possible from the starting room. If I'm right, this makes the Treasure Map even better than the Compass for finding it unless multiple rooms in totally different directions are tied for farthest.
- When fighting Mom, it's possible to sit beside a doorway far enough away that she can't slap you (her hand is narrower than it looks) but close enough that she can step on herself. It's not totally safe or reliable, but probably worth trying in as speedrun.

Attachments:

serial.txt

so.sol

Stealth

Edit history:

Stealth: 2012-01-18 09:10:57 am

Stealth: 2012-01-18 09:10:33 am

2012-01-18 02:23:30 am

^Haven't tested it that much yet, but I'm pretty sure that the boss room is not always the furthest room. I'll count it today again.
Can't believe you succeeded with the save creation by the way, awesome work. Smiley

EDIT: Alright, it seems that at least the majority of the time it's correct to assume that the furthest room is the boss room. A problem that arises is that usually there's a tie. From my test runs, especially the later (5-8) floors all had 2-3 places where the boss could be. This is problematic and therefore I think the Compass might still be the better item to buy.

NMS

2012-01-18 11:31:13 am

Yeah, that is the problem. Still, some of the tied rooms may be in the same direction, so you can improve your odds at least. And you know which rooms are dead ends. So it's better than nothing.

André

2012-01-18 03:15:22 pm

Main Work!!!

Yeah people interested in this game. I did over 15000 run in the last months so I can assure you that the boss room isn't the furthest, it happen to me a lot of time that I only have to move one room to go to it(up to the cave at least(it never happen to me in cave 2 and further but I'm someone very unlucky so...)). Which category do you intend to play(any% ?) Currently I'm working on the Low% and Marsh is working on the Any% NG+ and his runs are starting to get boss(the kind of run you have once on over 1000 times). For a perfect any%, I would advice that you restart until you move one room and the Item room and the boss room is in the same room(occurs about 1 time on 70 I would say(I should check this out I'm not completely sure about this)). Can you be more detailed on your mom strat please, could be very useful for my Low% Smiley

. Whatever category you want to play in good luck and don't give even considering that a descent run happen incredibly rarely.

NMS

2012-01-18 03:42:38 pm

Hmm, I had a level like that in the basement today, too. But maybe it's still true of the later levels? It seems like it's more likely to be far away anyway.

It's going to take some practice to get used to playing with Dr. Fetus and break my resource optimizing habits, so I'm just playing through every game where I find it. Someone needs to teach the game creators how to generate random numbers. I rerolled Spoon Bender into Max's Head more times than I found Dr. Fetus today.

Also attaching a demo of how to get Mom to stomp herself. Not a very good fight otherwise, but you get the idea.

Attachment:

Mom self-stomp.mp4

KhanFusion

2012-01-18 04:11:22 pm

Game creators don't really need to know that. new Random(int seed) knows it for them.
And btw, isn't the game written in flash? If so, then it surely must be in some form of bytecode with metadata, and can be decompiled back into actionscript, which can be then studied for its dungeon generation algorithms, items probalities, etc. This would help, I think...

NMS

Edit history:

NMS: 2012-01-18 04:53:04 pm

2012-01-18 04:52:43 pm

Well, maybe it's a bad algorithm, or maybe they made bad decisions about how and how often to set the random seed. Or maybe having the same item or room layout show up several times in a couple minutes over and over again isn't as improbable as it seems. I don't really feel like collecting a large enough data sample and doing the math.

If someone could decompile the code that would be useful. I just tried some programs that said they would but didn't work.

Also, I just had my first Fetus/shovel attempt. Got to Depths 1 in about 3:20 but started playing badly and got slaughtered by halfway through Depths 2. I'll upload if you want, but it's got some pretty embarrassing mistakes. Not really embarrassed about dying to globins that were just as fast as me though...

André

2012-01-18 05:43:29 pm

Main Work!!!

Thanks a lot for this strat against mom. for the room I said earlier like I said I only got this in basement 1 and 2 and I got it once in cave 1.So you're also attempting NG+ any% as I can see, good luck with it, I'll go for a couple of attempt and practice the new mom strat and I'll come back on this.

CrypticJacknife

2012-01-18 07:43:04 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Hahahaha I've always loved getting Mom to stomp herself, just the visuals of someone stepping on their own eyeball amuses me :3