The Legend of Zelda--all categories

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-10-31 02:33:33 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-10-29 11:41:02 pm

Darkwing Duck: 2011-10-28 07:11:15 pm

2011-10-27 05:15:13 pm

Highly Evolved

18/50

85/228.

11/34 extra.

96/262.

+ 12/33

108/295 36.6%

22/60

130/355

romscout

2011-10-28 09:49:21 am

that Metroidvania guy

Thats pretty good odds for something like that, in all honesty.

Darkwing Duck

2011-10-28 03:24:26 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from romscout:

Thats pretty good odds for something like that, in all honesty.

I wish I knew what the actual odds are for a blue octorok to drop a bomb, or any "random" item, for that matter.

Floogal

2011-10-28 11:55:15 pm

Check here for item drop information.

Essentially, it's random whether or not an enemy drops an item, but what item they do drop seems to be completely deterministic based on how many enemies have been killed & how recently Link took damage.

Try asking on the forum for more information, such as if $052A always starts at 0 from a fresh game start, and what a 'good item replacement' specifically is for each enemy category.

Darkwing Duck

2011-10-29 12:07:22 am

Highly Evolved

Quote from Floogal:

Check here for item drop information.

Essentially, it's random whether or not an enemy drops an item, but what item they do drop seems to be completely deterministic based on how many enemies have been killed & how recently Link took damage.

Try asking on the forum for more information, such as if $052A always starts at 0 from a fresh game start, and what a 'good item replacement' specifically is for each enemy category.

What they drop I already know. I want to know how often. And since all I get is this: "The enemies either drop or do not drop an item based solely on what frame they are killed," I have no idea what percentage rate that is, or what frame drops and what frame doesn't drop.

kinghippo423

Edit history:

kinghippo423: 2011-10-29 01:43:42 am

2011-10-29 01:42:42 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Is it information ketp secret by all the TAS videos creator of this game or is it still a mystery to this day?

I think we can say with fairly good certainty that the 1st blue octorok drops a bomb around 33% of the time.
Its probably the same odds for most of the items but, as you said, it's not a fact only speculations.

P.S. I played few hours on my console this after noon and I got 35/101

Poxnor

2011-10-29 01:47:54 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

If it's based on the frame in which you kill the enemy, as the TAS submission information states, you could probably just use an emulator with frame advance and count how many frames a killed octorok drops an item (and by "an item," I mean "any item," since which item is dropped is based on something else) *shrug*

Darkwing Duck

2011-10-31 02:34:52 am

Highly Evolved

No run yet out of the approximately 355 attempts I've made so far. Best has been 34:45 death at Gannon that I never really liked to begin with, so sub 35 is definitely achievable.

Blechy

Edit history:

Blechy: 2011-10-31 02:55:22 pm

2011-10-31 11:30:04 am

A monthish ago when we were racing the game, I sent Baxter a pm to see if he could give me any info. Here were my questions with his responses, unfortunately I don't think it'll bring anything new to the table. Anything I reference is just talking about the tasvideos submission notes.

Quote:

Q: I'm just assuming that these notes also apply to both 1st & 2nd quests, correct?
A: Yes, these notes apply to both quests.

Q: Do you know the rough overall chance a monster will drop an item? Are there any variables in this, such as which of the 4 categories, monster type, location, time in game, etc?
A: I have not found what influences whether or not an enemy will drop an item. I think it depends on some ingame counter or something, maybe in combination with something else. While TASing, what item Link gets can be planned, but whether or not he gets the item is just a matter of trial and error, and waiting extra frames.

Q: On starting a new game, the turn counter always begins at 0, correct? Do you know how soft resets, hard resets, power ons, etc. affect the turn counter both when starting a new game or resuming a save?
A: I don't know exactly, a power on will reset all RAM values, so then it starts at 0 again. Soft resets/new game/resuming from a save I would have to test (could do that tonight). Starting at 0 is good btw, as the first enemy (if the enemy is of type B) will give you a bomb.

Q: I've been hearing that the "good" item drops at kill counts of 10, 16, 26, 36, etc. (as long as it's not reset by getting hit) Does this keep going at that pattern? Does this drop depend at all on monster type or category? Does something drop every time?
A: I also seem to remember 10 and then 16. I probably tested further than that once, but I don't know if it has any practical application... who is able to kill that many enemies without getting hit? Also note that enemies like bats will not flip the address that gives you the good item, while it will keep counting for the regular #enemies killed-address.

Q: I also read that for "good" item drops, how you kill the monster affects the item drop. In particular, it sounds like anything killed by a bomb at these counts significantly raise the chance of the drop being a bomb. Do you know anything more about this? Do you know if weapon type matters outside of these "good item" kills?
A: Outside of these "good item"-kills, the weapon does matter at all. Only the type of enemy and how many enemies you killed before. I don't know if killing an enemy with a bomb will influence what "good item" but I would be surprised by it.

In the few races we did do, I started with dungeon 2 for consistency. On the way, my plan was to get a bomb drop early enough so that I could take a small detour to the heart container a few screens south of start. We only did 6 races or so, but I got a bomb drop every single time. No doubt it was only 6 runs and I was probably getting lucky, but I was still getting the drop consistently if I followed the movement/kill pattern of:
Up 1 screen, kill 2 octoroks - Right 1 screen, kill 1 octorok - right 1 screen, kill 1 octorok - right 1 screen, kill octorok.

This way, with 2 blue octoroks on the next screen, I set myself up for a bomb drop chance at both the 6 & 8 kill counters, but I was getting a consistent bomb drop on the 6 counter every time. So I'm not sure if kill patterns matter, but considering how many runs you've done I'm sure you'd have noticed something fishy by now if that was the case. I still kinda feel like there's something more to it than just what frame it is.

A monthish ago when we were racing the game, I sent Baxter a pm to see if he could give me any info. Here were my questions with his responses, unfortunately I don't think it'll bring anything new to the table. Anything I reference is just talking about the tasvideos submission notes.

[quote]
Q: I'm just assuming that these notes also apply to both 1st & 2nd quests, correct?
A: Yes, these notes apply to both quests.

Q: Do you know the rough overall chance a monster will drop an item? Are there any variables in this, such as which of the 4 categories, monster type, location, time in game, etc?
A: I have not found what influences whether or not an enemy will drop an item. I think it depends on some ingame counter or something, maybe in combination with something else. While TASing, what item Link gets can be planned, but whether or not he gets the item is just a matter of trial and error, and waiting extra frames.

Q: On starting a new game, the turn counter always begins at 0, correct? Do you know how soft resets, hard resets, power ons, etc. affect the turn counter both when starting a new game or resuming a save?
A: I don't know exactly, a power on will reset all RAM values, so then it starts at 0 again. Soft resets/new game/resuming from a save I would have to test (could do that tonight). Starting at 0 is good btw, as the first enemy (if the enemy is of type B) will give you a bomb.

Q: I've been hearing that the "good" item drops at kill counts of 10, 16, 26, 36, etc. (as long as it's not reset by getting hit) Does this keep going at that pattern? Does this drop depend at all on monster type or category? Does something drop every time?
A: I also seem to remember 10 and then 16. I probably tested further than that once, but I don't know if it has any practical application... who is able to kill that many enemies without getting hit? Also note that enemies like bats will not flip the address that gives you the good item, while it will keep counting for the regular #enemies killed-address.

Q: I also read that for "good" item drops, how you kill the monster affects the item drop. In particular, it sounds like anything killed by a bomb at these counts significantly raise the chance of the drop being a bomb. Do you know anything more about this? Do you know if weapon type matters outside of these "good item" kills?
A: Outside of these "good item"-kills, the weapon does matter at all. Only the type of enemy and how many enemies you killed before. I don't know if killing an enemy with a bomb will influence what "good item" but I would be surprised by it.
[/quote]

In the few races we did do, I started with dungeon 2 for consistency. On the way, my plan was to get a bomb drop early enough so that I could take a small detour to the heart container a few screens south of start. We only did 6 races or so, but I got a bomb drop every single time. No doubt it was only 6 runs and I was probably getting lucky, but I was still getting the drop consistently if I followed the movement/kill pattern of:
Up 1 screen, kill 2 octoroks - Right 1 screen, kill 1 octorok - right 1 screen, kill 1 octorok - right 1 screen, kill octorok.

This way, with 2 blue octoroks on the next screen, I set myself up for a bomb drop chance at both the 6 & 8 kill counters, but I was getting a consistent bomb drop on the 6 counter every time. So I'm not sure if kill patterns matter, but considering how many runs you've done I'm sure you'd have noticed something fishy by now if that was the case. I still kinda feel like there's something more to it than just what frame it is.

Darkwing Duck

2011-10-31 02:47:19 pm

Highly Evolved

The last two answers I believe he is incorrect on. Killing keese does add to the consecutive kill counter. What it would do, I've found, is that it force the good item drop off item dropping enemy no matter the actual number the counter is at. Por ejemplo, If you're at 8 in the consecutive kill counter and kill four keese and then, say, a gibdos, that gibdos will drop a five rupee, even though it's 13 on the kill counter. What I'd like to test is whether getting past 10 AND 16 on non-item dropping enemies would net me a fairy or five rupee. This is important in level 9, to whether I can expect a fairy off of a Patra or not.

In fact, I am assured that the answer is reversed for keese and gels from broken apart vires and zols. The gels and keese add to the consecutive kill counter, and not the item drop counter. This is extremely important for level 3, at least in a marathon setting where I kill darknuts with the sword. If I'm not hit after the first kill, and break apart one zol and kill the gels, that will leave me at x on the item drop counter and x+2 on the consecutive kill counter, meaning I'd get a five rupee off a darknut instead of a possible bomb. Need all the bomb drops you can early on.

Here's a situation that proves the last two answer are incorrect (at least the second part of the third answer).

Get to the first darknut room with 5 on the consecutive hit counter and 5 on the item drop counter. In my attempts, most of the time it's 2 or 3 octorok kills (blue one first of course) and the the necessary amount of keese to get to 5. Have to not get hit.

Now kill 4 of the five darknuts with bombs. Kill the fifth with the sword. It will be a five rupee. Kill it with a bomb. It will be a bomb. I have yet to have the opposite happen.

The last two answers I believe he is incorrect on.  Killing keese does add to the consecutive kill counter.  What it would do, I've found, is that it force the good item drop off item dropping enemy no matter the actual number the counter is at.  Por ejemplo, If you're at 8 in the consecutive kill counter and kill four keese and then, say, a gibdos, that gibdos will drop a five rupee, even though it's 13 on the kill counter.  What I'd like to test is whether getting past 10 AND 16 on non-item dropping enemies would net me a fairy or five rupee.  This is important in level 9, to whether I can expect a fairy off of a Patra or not.

In fact, I am assured that the answer is reversed for keese and gels from broken apart vires and zols.  The gels and keese add to the consecutive kill counter, and not the item drop counter.  This is extremely important for level 3, at least in a marathon setting where I kill darknuts with the sword.  If I'm not hit after the first kill, and break apart one zol and kill the gels, that will leave me at x on the item drop counter and x+2 on the consecutive kill counter, meaning I'd get a five rupee off a darknut instead of a possible bomb.  Need all the bomb drops you can early on.

Here's a situation that proves the last two answer are incorrect (at least the second part of the third answer).

Get to the first darknut room with 5 on the consecutive hit counter and 5 on the item drop counter.  In my attempts, most of the time it's 2 or 3 octorok kills (blue one first of course) and the the necessary amount of keese to get to 5.  Have to not get hit.

Now kill 4 of the five darknuts with bombs.  Kill the fifth with the sword.  It will be a five rupee.  Kill it with a bomb.  It will be a bomb.  I have yet to have the opposite happen.

Solairflaire

2011-10-31 11:26:55 pm

After testing the consecutive kill counter on emulator, here is what I came up with.

1. on 10, 26, 36, 46, 56, etc. you will get a 5 rupee if you kill an enemy with the sword, wand, candle (red or blue), and bow
2. same as 1., but bombs yield bombs
3. on 16, a fairy drops regardless of weapon used, this over-rides #4
4. if you killed enough non drop enemies to go past one of the consecutive kill drop points, you get a 5 rupee regardless of weapon used (ex. you kill enough keese to bring you from 7 to 19, the next enemy will drop a 5 rupee)

possible exception: Manhandla (boss of level 3) seems to always drop a bomb if you kill it with a bomb when it's on any consecutive kill counter spot (even 16 or when you've "overkilled" past a drop point). I only noticed this at the start, I didn't test it much.

I only tested for a couple hours in real time (since I suck at advanced emulator usage), so these may not be completely accurate, but I think it's a good baseline if nothing else. I tested it on a variety of enemies and enemy type didn't matter. Timing also didn't matter (but I didn't use anything like slowdown or frame advance, so I could have had poor timing).

After testing the consecutive kill counter on emulator, here is what I came up with.

1. on 10, 26, 36, 46, 56, etc. you will get a 5 rupee if you kill an enemy with the sword, wand, candle (red or blue), and bow
2. same as 1., but bombs yield bombs
3. on 16, a fairy drops regardless of weapon used, this over-rides #4
4. if you killed enough non drop enemies to go past one of the consecutive kill drop points, you get a 5 rupee regardless of weapon used (ex. you kill enough keese to bring you from 7 to 19, the next enemy will drop a 5 rupee)

possible exception: Manhandla (boss of level 3) seems to always drop a bomb if you kill it with a bomb when it's on any consecutive kill counter spot (even 16 or when you've "overkilled" past a drop point). I only noticed this at the start, I didn't test it much.

I only tested for a couple hours in real time (since I suck at advanced emulator usage), so these may not be completely accurate, but I think it's a good baseline if nothing else. I tested it on a variety of enemies and enemy type didn't matter. Timing also didn't matter (but I didn't use anything like slowdown or frame advance, so I could have had poor timing).

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-15 04:50:21 pm

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-07 02:21:40 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-07 02:17:14 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-04 11:33:08 pm

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-04 05:33:50 pm

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-02 07:31:37 pm

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-02 03:17:42 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-01 05:47:53 pm

2011-11-01 03:15:24 am

Highly Evolved

New page, new post about blue octorok bomb drops.

25/61 tonight.

Add to the previous and you have 155/416. That's a 37.26% drop rate.

Also recorded a 35:24 tonight, which currently stands as my best completed run. However, I lost 30 seconds being 2 rupees short of 60 for the candle. Went to an adjoining screen to get enough rupees for the candle. Need to have 60 entering that screen

Forgot my numbers today. Something like 16/41, so we'll use that. 171/457

15/37

186/494 37.65%

29/79

215/573

8/14

223/587.

9/24 234/611. 38.3% Looking like 3/8 to me.

And wow. Over 600 attempts so far.

9/24 again 18/45 261/680

243/635 Was the 635th attempt the one?

Darkwing Duck

2011-11-04 11:34:58 pm

Highly Evolved

Best attempt so far.

35:08

Very close. Bad level nine. Bad reverse "C" block room. No spare bombs, lots of hits from bubbles and wizzrobes. Lost 20 seconds there. Bad Gannon as well. Lost 10 seconds there. Could have been a 34:45 run easily with a good level 9.

Darkwing Duck

2011-11-07 02:16:00 am

Highly Evolved

I'm torn. Will I fall under ZSRP or what?

I completed a run at 34:50.

I accomplished my goal.

I did not have the amazing fuzzy feelings I did after DW3, TA, and Startropics.

Why?

At one point in this run, I was 25 seconds behind my 35:08 split.

I had a level 9 that was jaw dropping. And it even could have been better.

I had a bland Gannon. I did not get an extra bomb drop. I didn't get the Patra skip. What happened is that I had the beam sword (full health) for nearly the entire time. I just didn't get hit much. Patras go down much faster with the beam sword as I would get three hits instead of two, and the first Patra couldn't hide within the block circle.

I got a level 9 split of 6:07. I was thinking 6:13 would be the absolute best I could think of getting. I think I could get sub 6 in level 9, which was unfathomable until just now. In comparison, my 35:08, which had a terrible level 9, had a split of 6:45.

34:30 is definitely possible.

Zyre

2011-11-07 07:22:46 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

You could send in the 34:50 and have that verifying, then if you get a faster time (sub 34:30), you can send that one in later to act as an improvement on the 34:50. This also acts as a safety net if you aren't able to get sub 34:30 and you start burning out, if burning out is possible while under ZSRP.

sinister1

2011-11-07 09:11:17 am

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

Quote from Zyre:

You could send in the 34:50 and have that verifying, then if you get a faster time (sub 34:30), you can send that one in later to act as an improvement on the 34:50. This also acts as a safety net if you aren't able to get sub 34:30 and you start burning out, if burning out is possible while under ZSRP.

+1, submit immediately.

Tranquilite

Edit history:

Tranquilite: 2011-11-13 03:17:49 am

2011-11-07 02:49:08 pm

Whatever you do, just don't not submit a run.

Darkwing Duck

2011-11-13 01:25:50 am

Highly Evolved

Confirmed something on the consecutive kill counter. If you kill a non-item dropping enemy as kill 10, then however you killed that tenth enemy will determine if you get a bomb drop or a blue rupee. Won't matter how you kill that 11th enemy.

Not terribly useful as I don't kill non-item dropping enemies with bombs. I could possibly manipulate it to get a guaranteed bomb drop in level 4, however. I could kill some keese in the free key room (two north of start) if I know that would equate to 10 on the consecutive kill counter. Could then kill vires in the next room with bombs. Would net me two bombs. Not useful if I have full bombs going into 4. Plus, I need blue rupees there just as much as bomb drops, and I can get random bomb drops more regularly than random blue rupees.

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-23 05:48:19 pm

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-22 03:38:06 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-21 03:21:37 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-20 03:54:25 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-19 12:54:40 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-18 03:49:52 am

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-17 03:03:44 am

2011-11-16 02:46:54 am

Highly Evolved

I've decided to try and best 34:50. New goal: 34:45.

19/56 tonight.

280/733 36.22%

9/20 289/753

3/12 292/765

27/74 319/839 38.02%

18/38 337/877

10/20 347/897 38.68%

26/55 373/952

4/9 377/961

Darkwing Duck

2011-11-17 03:06:56 am

Highly Evolved

Had decent luck, but didn't play great on my attempts tonight. Last run of the night had me 17.4 seconds ahead of pace after level 6, but squandered it all on level 8 somehow. Probably had to do with recovery from level 6 and a slow Gleeok. Was .9 ahead of pace going into 9, but didn't have full health going into 9 and died in the reverse C block room.

I want to be about 15 seconds or so ahead of pace going into 9. Gives me some leeway as the level 9 for 34:50 was the fastest I've done by several seconds.

Zyre

2011-11-17 07:10:59 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

Sounds like you're getting closer to beating your 34:50. I'd say that if you don't have a faster run done by Thanksgiving, you get your 34:50 submitted because it seems ZSRP has kicked in. The worst that could happen is it getting rejected (which I kinda doubt) while you're working on a faster time.

Darkwing Duck

2011-11-17 02:29:50 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Zyre:

Sounds like you're getting closer to beating your 34:50. I'd say that if you don't have a faster run done by Thanksgiving, you get your 34:50 submitted because it seems ZSRP has kicked in. The worst that could happen is it getting rejected (which I kinda doubt) while you're working on a faster time.

Not sure if I'd call my decision ZSRP. This isn't the first time that I've had a run that would be acceptable that I've rejected. I had an initial StarTropics run actually pass verification and I rejected it myself.

Darkwing Duck

2011-11-18 03:59:27 am

Highly Evolved

Well, in the 130 attempts I've done since the 34:50, I've had two be ahead of pace after the level 8 split, which affirms in my mind the decision to continue to make attempts. My last attempt was one I let slip away, as I was 10 seconds ahead of pace going into 9, and over 20 seconds ahead of pace leaving level 6.

I've made a bit of a route adjustment. I'm skipping the leevers between level 4 and level 1. I'll only kill them if I haven't gotten a blue rupee up to that point, and it's almost to the point of resetting if I have to fight them. If I'm a bit short of rupees, I'll kill a few extra stalfos. I should have received at least one blue rupee in level 4, and I have a chance to procure two, meaning I'm at 20 rupees going into one. I'm pretty much guaranteed one blue rupee in level 1, and getting one more blue rupee after 1 isn't difficult. I take the few seconds necessary to kill the octoroks to the right of level 1, and that will guarantee a blue rupee from the leevers in the desert.

There's also the opportunity to be at thirty before the leevers in the desert, allowing me to skip those. I'm pickjng up 10 seconds on good level 1 times, so if I can emulate the great level 8 and 9 times I had on the 34:50, I can achieve 34:30.

Well, in the 130 attempts I've done since the 34:50, I've had two be ahead of pace after the level 8 split, which affirms in my mind the decision to continue to make attempts.  My last attempt was one I let slip away, as I was 10 seconds ahead of pace going into 9, and over 20 seconds ahead of pace leaving level 6.

I've made a bit of a route adjustment.  I'm skipping the leevers between level 4 and level 1.  I'll only kill them if I haven't gotten a blue rupee up to that point, and it's almost to the point of resetting if I have to fight them.  If I'm a bit short of rupees, I'll kill a few extra stalfos.  I should have received at least one blue rupee in level 4, and I have a chance to procure two, meaning I'm at 20 rupees going into one.  I'm pretty much guaranteed one blue rupee in level 1, and getting one more blue rupee after 1 isn't difficult.  I take the few seconds necessary to kill the octoroks to the right of level 1, and that will guarantee a blue rupee from the leevers in the desert.

There's also the opportunity to be at thirty before the leevers in the desert, allowing me to skip those.  I'm pickjng up 10 seconds on good level 1 times, so if I can emulate the great level 8 and 9 times I had on the 34:50, I can achieve 34:30.

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-11-19 12:59:26 am

2011-11-19 12:55:04 am

Highly Evolved

Death at Gannon at 34:34. Sad

-30 sec at one point.

Tranquilite

2011-11-19 01:56:35 am

It's always painful to see the good attempts fail so... spectacularly.