The Legend of Zelda--all categories

2012-02-03 10:54:36 am

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

Been lurking this thread for a while and was wondering...DW do you plan on streaming any practice for this or have you been (I have not seen your stream in ages)? I am curious to see how this is going so far.

mikwuyma

2012-02-03 11:19:44 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

DW has been streaming practice, but it's always been at some crazy time like 3 or 4 in the morning.

Zyre

2012-02-03 11:22:07 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

I've seen him stream in the afternoon sometimes. But we'll have to hear from the man himself on when he normally streams.

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2012-02-03 01:46:01 pm

2012-02-03 01:45:00 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Trebor:

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

You should try it from the top left of the screen. You get a very interesting result.

That is very cool. Useless, but cool nonetheless.

Also, are you getting the MS in these latest attempts?

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Level 1
scroll glitch across river.
scroll glitch again to get to level 2.
level 2
whistle to 1.
scroll glitch across river again.
scroll glitch to arrow shop screen.
PB/Ladder/HC
Flute warp to 1
8
WS
4
Whistle to old 3
Candle
100 Secret
Arrow
Level 5

Probably have to whistle to old 1 at that point and do 3 and 7 and 6.

Upon closer inspection of the bold part, I think walking to 6 while skipping the Lost Woods would be faster and safer. There is one less screen, and you only have to scroll glitch once as opposed to twice.

Doing fewer screen scrolls isn't an incentive to do a different path.

Walking from 2 to 6, then getting PB is faster than fluting from 2 to 1, and getting PB before 6?

The route testing has skipped the Magical Sword

Quote from sinister1:

Been lurking this thread for a while and was wondering...DW do you plan on streaming any practice for this or have you been (I have not seen your stream in ages)? I am curious to see how this is going so far.

Well, I did take a few days off to take a break from the game and take arrows in the knee, but yes, I stream either late night (1-2 AM my time), or afternoon (2-3 PM my time). Sometimes both. May do some afternoon stuff today, since I won't be streaming late night.

[quote="Trebor"][quote="Darkwing Duck"]You should try it from the top left of the screen.  You get a very interesting result.
[/quote]

That is very cool.  Useless, but cool nonetheless.

Also, are you getting the MS in these latest attempts?

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]Level 1
scroll glitch across river.
scroll glitch again to get to level 2.
level 2
[b]whistle to 1.
scroll glitch across river again.
scroll glitch to arrow shop screen.
PB/Ladder/HC
Flute warp to 1[/b]
8
WS
4
Whistle to old 3
Candle
100 Secret
Arrow
Level 5

Probably have to whistle to old 1 at that point and do 3 and 7 and 6.  [/quote]

Upon closer inspection of the bold part, I think walking to 6 while skipping the Lost Woods would be faster and safer.  There is one less screen, and you only have to scroll glitch once as opposed to twice.[/quote]

Doing fewer screen scrolls isn't an incentive to do a different path.

Walking from 2 to 6, then getting PB is faster than fluting from 2 to 1, and getting PB before 6?

The route testing has skipped the Magical Sword

[quote="sinister1"]Been lurking this thread for a while and was wondering...DW do you plan on streaming any practice for this or have you been (I have not seen your stream in ages)? I am curious to see how this is going so far.[/quote]

Well, I did take a few days off to take a break from the game and take arrows in the knee, but yes, I stream either late night (1-2 AM my time), or afternoon (2-3 PM my time).  Sometimes both.  May do some afternoon stuff today, since I won't be streaming late night.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-03 04:37:23 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Gawd, level 7 and 9 are so hard with this route. Sad

Trebor

2012-02-03 08:24:17 pm

Trebdor the Selbonator

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Quote from Trebor:

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

You should try it from the top left of the screen. You get a very interesting result.

That is very cool. Useless, but cool nonetheless.

Also, are you getting the MS in these latest attempts?

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Level 1
scroll glitch across river.
scroll glitch again to get to level 2.
level 2
whistle to 1.
scroll glitch across river again.
scroll glitch to arrow shop screen.
PB/Ladder/HC
Flute warp to 1
8
WS
4
Whistle to old 3
Candle
100 Secret
Arrow
Level 5

Probably have to whistle to old 1 at that point and do 3 and 7 and 6.

Upon closer inspection of the bold part, I think walking to 6 while skipping the Lost Woods would be faster and safer. There is one less screen, and you only have to scroll glitch once as opposed to twice.

Doing fewer screen scrolls isn't an incentive to do a different path.

Walking from 2 to 6, then getting PB is faster than fluting from 2 to 1, and getting PB before 6?

The route testing has skipped the Magical Sword

It's faster by one screen, but that may not amount to much at all in real time. So it really doesn't matter I guess. Just depends on how good you are with the scrolls.

And yeah, Level 7 and 9 are going to be a huge pain in this route. They are literally the only reasons to get the WS in the first place.

[quote="Darkwing Duck"][quote="Trebor"][quote="Darkwing Duck"]You should try it from the top left of the screen.  You get a very interesting result.
[/quote]

That is very cool.  Useless, but cool nonetheless.

Also, are you getting the MS in these latest attempts?

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]Level 1
scroll glitch across river.
scroll glitch again to get to level 2.
level 2
[b]whistle to 1.
scroll glitch across river again.
scroll glitch to arrow shop screen.
PB/Ladder/HC
Flute warp to 1[/b]
8
WS
4
Whistle to old 3
Candle
100 Secret
Arrow
Level 5

Probably have to whistle to old 1 at that point and do 3 and 7 and 6.  [/quote]

Upon closer inspection of the bold part, I think walking to 6 while skipping the Lost Woods would be faster and safer.  There is one less screen, and you only have to scroll glitch once as opposed to twice.[/quote]

Doing fewer screen scrolls isn't an incentive to do a different path.

Walking from 2 to 6, then getting PB is faster than fluting from 2 to 1, and getting PB before 6?

The route testing has skipped the Magical Sword
[/quote]

It's faster by one screen, but that may not amount to much at all in real time.  So it really doesn't matter I guess.  Just depends on how good you are with the scrolls.

And yeah, Level 7 and 9 are going to be a huge pain in this route.  They are literally the only reasons to get the WS in the first place.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-03 09:13:24 pm

Highly Evolved

Have to kill darknuts and Pol's voices without arrows in 4, so WS is needed there, as well.

Trebor

2012-02-03 09:24:30 pm

Trebdor the Selbonator

Sorry about that. Edited that previous post because of a hardcore typo. Should've said MS instead of WS.

IkomaSoji

Edit history:

IkomaSoji: 2012-02-04 12:19:37 am

2012-02-04 12:14:20 am

Jump, Gypsy, Jump!

Hey guys. I don't want to clog up your thread with unhelpful posts, but I was hoping to ask for help. I have recently experienced a bit of a setback in trying to get into speed running, as I made the poor decision of trying to find games to run that either didn't already have runs up, or the runs weren't as spectacular and could use some love, instead of going with what I know. Well, I've come to realize through watching a friend play through Zelda for his first time the other day and being able to lead him everywhere by heart after having spent years away from the game that this is certainly what I know and love. I may only be in it for a casual learning experience, but I wanted input from more serious runners, so that is why I came over here, instead of posting in the old and inactive thread on the casual board.

I wanted to see if you guys had any idea where I can find resources on the more mechanical heavy stuff of the game, like item drop manipulation (What enemies drop what, and the enemy counts that effect which item can drop, etc). I know a lot about where things are and how to play the game normally, but I'm interested in really getting under the hood and understanding more of the stuff that you don't figure out just by casually playing the game.

Any help would be appreciated, and if I shouldn't be posting this here, go ahead and let me know and I will react accordingly. Thanks guys.

Edited to fix the wall of text effect.

Hey guys. I don't want to clog up your thread with unhelpful posts, but I was hoping to ask for help. I have recently experienced a bit of a setback in trying to get into speed running, as I made the poor decision of trying to find games to run that either didn't already have runs up, or the runs weren't as spectacular and could use some love, instead of going with what I know. Well, I've come to realize through watching a friend play through Zelda for his first time the other day and being able to lead him everywhere by heart after having spent years away from the game that this is certainly what I know and love. I may only be in it for a casual learning experience, but I wanted input from more serious runners, so that is why I came over here, instead of posting in the old and inactive thread on the casual board.

I wanted to see if you guys had any idea where I can find resources on the more mechanical heavy stuff of the game, like item drop manipulation (What enemies drop what, and the enemy counts that effect which item can drop, etc). I know a lot about where things are and how to play the game normally, but I'm interested in really getting under the hood and understanding more of the stuff that you don't figure out just by casually playing the game.

Any help would be appreciated, and if I shouldn't be posting this here, go ahead and let me know and I will react accordingly. Thanks guys.

Edited to fix the wall of text effect.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-04 12:57:28 am

Highly Evolved

This thread is a good start. All my data is observational, though, so not incredibly helpful.

This details the item drops.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3951/zeldaitemdropsnr2.png

Basically, killing an enemy (exception being gels and keese killed from breaking apart zols and vires, respectively) adds one to the kill counter, and it goes from 9 to 0 to 1 and cycles sequentially.

The other item drop counter is the consecutive counter. Killing 10 enemies without being hit will force a specific drop, as does 16, 26, 36, and so forth.

When an enemy drops an item is unknown. Seems to based on a frame, and is not totally random.

Best thing to do is look at the TAS notes on the game. Look at both quest notes. Different stuff in both.

IkomaSoji

Edit history:

IkomaSoji: 2012-02-04 01:16:12 am

2012-02-04 01:10:39 am

Jump, Gypsy, Jump!

Thanks DW. Yeah, I looked over at TASvideos for info, but there doesn't seem to be a tricks page for LoZ strangely. There is one for LoZ Outlands, and it links to the regular LoZ tricks page, but the page itself doesn't exist. Makes me wonder if something may have happened to it.

One question on the kill counter. Does it keep counting up no matter what happens? I mean, if an item drops while I'm at 5 for instance, does it still remain at 5? My guess would be yes, but just want to be sure. Also, from watching one of your 1st and 2nd quest highlights, when you simultaneously kill things, it seems that all the drops may be from the same kill counter tier (Example, in one part you bomb a bunch of enemies and somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 fairies drop). Is this the case or am I just reaching?

Thanks for the help!

Edit: TasVideos does however have a 34 page thread about LoZ, so I'll start meandering my way through that.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-04 01:20:08 am

Highly Evolved

The only way to get an item drop is if you kill something, so when you kill something, it increases the counter. You start at zero. That's why in most runs, you'll see the player kill a blue octorok first, since that enemy is in the bomb dropping group and a bomb drops at 1. Kill counter will always tic on a kill (with the exception I mentioned), no matter if it drops an item or not, or whether it's an item dropping enemy or not. Cutting off the first head of the Gleeok counts, for example.

And that LoZ thread is pretty active, currently. Someone is working on a 100% first quest run for some reason.

Trebor

2012-02-06 11:17:20 am

Trebdor the Selbonator

Over the weekend, I developed a really good handle on the glitch, I think. I have also settled on the route I'm going to use, hopefully changing my mind for the last time. We'll see. There are a lot of minor things you can change up and still come out with roughly the same amount of screens, so we'll see how an actual run holds up against theory.

I also played around with getting the MS, and the best route I could come up with was 18 screens longer than the route I settled on in a no MS run. I am pretty sure that's not worth the effort, even though you have to go through some tough rooms in 7 and 9. Not really any new information there, just throwing it out there for curiosity's sake.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-07 03:01:51 pm

Highly Evolved

Being coy with the route, eh?

Trebor

2012-02-07 09:16:06 pm

Trebdor the Selbonator

Nah, not intentionally. It's nothing special, though. Was probably already posted in here.

L1
L2 across the water
HC, Ladder
PB, 30 secret
L3
L8
WS
L4
Candle, 100 secret, Arrow
L5
L6
L7
L9

L6 and L7 are really interchangeable when considering the overall time, but I'd rather do 6 first.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-08 03:54:34 am

Highly Evolved

Man. My marathon route is getting better, or at least comparable times.

Not sure about this route anymore.

Trebor

2012-02-08 07:06:28 am

Trebdor the Selbonator

I know how you feel. I swear the more I stare at the overworld map, the more I see that all routes are converging on a specific number of screens, like it really doesn't matter which one you use. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing yet.

And for some reason, I keep coming back to the Magical Sword. I know I should just forget about it, but I keep wondering how much time it'll really waste to pick it up when you consider how much faster Level 7 and 9 will go. I'm not sure there's an easy way to get definite numbers on that, other than just playing through the last few dungeons with and without it and comparing times. I think I'll get a save file up through Level 5 and play with it a bit while I'm here at work.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-08 01:35:22 pm

Highly Evolved

There really are only a few compelling factors about the second quest.

Money or life
Magical Sword or not

Everything else seems to be lipstick, since the setup of the second quest has Link backtracking so much, and we've been trying to find ways to drop a couple overworld screens, which is minor in the scheme of things.

Money or life is tied into the Magical Sword, so it seems the run is almost completely dependent on whether you get the magical sword.

Let's categorize some things:

3 available 30 secrets for candle and -50. That's 15 random or 45 random if you skip one of them (5 in level 6). Link has to go to 3 if he's going to get 2 of those secrets.
- alternate: MMG, likely in screen west of LW.

12 hearts for Magical Sword. East coast will likely be fully skipped, and HC near MS will be acquired, as will the HC near 6. That leaves desert HC as the maybe. MS saves minimal time in 6, but saves lots of time in 7, and somewhere in between for 9. Seems the best scenario is no desert HC, and acquiring MS after 6.

Screen scroll glitch doesn't seem to affect things much if you're using it in all possible routes. Just an overall time saver. Hard to tell if you really can manipulate to save time with one route over the other.

There really are only a few compelling factors about the second quest.

Money or life
Magical Sword or not

Everything else seems to be lipstick, since the setup of the second quest has Link backtracking so much, and we've been trying to find ways to drop a couple overworld screens, which is minor in the scheme of things.

Money or life is tied into the Magical Sword, so it seems the run is almost completely dependent on whether you get the magical sword.

Let's categorize some things:

3 available 30 secrets for candle and -50.  That's 15 random or 45 random if you skip one of them (5 in level 6).  Link has to go to 3 if he's going to get 2 of those secrets.  
       - alternate:  MMG, likely in screen west of LW.

12 hearts for Magical Sword.  East coast will likely be fully skipped, and HC near MS will be acquired, as will the HC near 6.  That leaves desert HC as the maybe.  MS saves minimal time in 6, but saves lots of time in 7, and somewhere in between for 9.  Seems the best scenario is no desert HC, and acquiring MS after 6.

Screen scroll glitch doesn't seem to affect things much if you're using it in all possible routes.  Just an overall time saver.  Hard to tell if you really can manipulate to save time with one route over the other.

Trebor

2012-02-09 09:16:16 am

Trebdor the Selbonator

Those thoughts all agree with what I've noticed. As for the best way to pick up the MS, here are my thoughts.

The MMG: The one west of the Lost Woods is the least out of the way. However, trying to walk onto that stairway in the middle of a group of Lynels is asking for disaster. Let's not even think about having to go in again if you only get a +20. The next best one is 3 screens west of Level 8. Depending on the route, it may not be too far out of the way to use. If you warp to Level 1 to get to Level 8, then it's only one screen away. It could be an option in that case. However, I have a natural hatred for the MMG that goes beyond all logic, so walking a few extra screens to get 30 secrets or a Heart Container doesn't make me feel guilty at all.

Life or Money game: Specifically the one in Level 4, as the one in Level 7 is moot. You'll either have the MS by then or you won't get getting it, so you can pay a heart regardless. Like you said, you basically have two options: pick up the HC in the desert or pick up 3 30 secrets.

First option, grab the HC. The way I see it, the best time to grab this depends on your route. It seems to make sense to me to grab it when you first take the stairs after grabbing the ladder. Just take the stairs nearest to the HC, grab it, then continue on to Level 3 (going back in the stairs is actually longer). If your route doesn't use the stairs after the ladder, the it's best to get it when you warp to Level 1.

Second option, grab 3 30 secrets. The 30 secret east of Level 3 is really a no brainer because there is no route that I know of that doesn't take you onto that screen. The screen north of that has one as well, and you're right there. Seems like another no brainer. The third one is the tricky one. One choice is the one in old Level 6. But you and I both know you'll have to reload the screen below it at least once (probably more) to get the Lynels in optimal position. Another choice is the one northeast of Level 1. You need the candle, so here's my idea. After beating Level 3, warp to old Level 3, grab the candle, warp to Level 1, grab the 30 secret northeast of Level 1, then continue the trek to Level 8. Seems a bit out of the way until you consider that after Level 4, you can warp to old Level 7 instead of old Level 3 and grab the 100 secret and arrow from there, saving yourself a small amount of time.

Those thoughts all agree with what I've noticed.  As for the best way to pick up the MS, here are my thoughts.

The MMG:  The one west of the Lost Woods is the least out of the way.  However, trying to walk onto that stairway in the middle of a group of Lynels is asking for disaster.  Let's not even think about having to go in again if you only get a +20.  The next best one is 3 screens west of Level 8.  Depending on the route, it may not be too far out of the way to use.  If you warp to Level 1 to get to Level 8, then it's only one screen away.  It could be an option in that case.  However, I have a natural hatred for the MMG that goes beyond all logic, so walking a few extra screens to get 30 secrets or a Heart Container doesn't make me feel guilty at all.

Life or Money game: Specifically the one in Level 4, as the one in Level 7 is moot.  You'll either have the MS by then or you won't get getting it, so you can pay a heart regardless.  Like you said, you basically have two options:  pick up the HC in the desert or pick up 3 30 secrets.

First option, grab the HC.  The way I see it, the best time to grab this depends on your route.  It seems to make sense to me to grab it when you first take the stairs after grabbing the ladder.  Just take the stairs nearest to the HC, grab it, then continue on to Level 3 (going back in the stairs is actually longer).  If your route doesn't use the stairs after the ladder, the it's best to get it when you warp to Level 1.

Second option, grab 3 30 secrets.  The 30 secret east of Level 3 is really a no brainer because there is no route that I know of that doesn't take you onto that screen.  The screen north of that has one as well, and you're right there.  Seems like another no brainer.  The third one is the tricky one.  One choice is the one in old Level 6.  But you and I both know you'll have to reload the screen below it at least once (probably more) to get the Lynels in optimal position.  Another choice is the one northeast of Level 1.  You need the candle, so here's my idea.  After beating Level 3, warp to old Level 3, grab the candle, warp to Level 1, grab the 30 secret northeast of Level 1, then continue the trek to Level 8.  Seems a bit out of the way until you consider that after Level 4, you can warp to old Level 7 instead of old Level 3 and grab the 100 secret and arrow from there, saving yourself a small amount of time.

Solairflaire

2012-02-09 08:06:17 pm

I was messing with routes trying to find minor improvements and not really finding any. The only possible exception would be picking up the PB on the way to level 2. This would allow one to pick up the HC north of 6 after the ladder and then warp to level 1 and continue the route. It would save a screen and you skip going past the lynels. Just take the lost woods skip after level 2.

While I was messing around, I was wondering what the ladder was used for. Before the scroll glitch, it seems like people got it because you needed the PB anyway and you would want the ladder to go over the river instead of backtracking a lot. It's also used in a couple dungeons to get keys, but would getting those keys be necessary or are there other keys to get? I came up with a route that would get the ladder when you go to 6. Its overworld distance seems the same as the routes already presented and would require getting the most hellish of keys in the game: The one in level 9.

Here's my Leaving Ladder Later route:
Level 1
PB
Level 2
Flute warp to 1, 30 secret E of 3
Level 3
WS
Level 4
Flute warp to old 3, Candle, 100 Secret, Arrow
Level 5
Flute warp to old 7
Level 6 (get ladder too)
(HC N of 6)
Flute warp to old 2
Level 7
Flute warp to 1
Level 8
Level 9

I haven't tested keys yet, but on paper I think it comes out properly. Some are less efficient to get than ones on current routes. Since this route also doesn't save time on the overworld, I don't think it's worth seriously considering. But, it's interesting that the getting the ladder early probably doesn't really save much time if you use the scroll glitch.

The overworld route isn't going to make a whole lot of difference if there is only a few screens that are different. Close to 3/4 of the run is in dungeons anyway. Being efficient in dungeons is where the most time savings will be.

I was messing with routes trying to find minor improvements and not really finding any. The only possible exception would be picking up the PB on the way to level 2. This would allow one to pick up the HC north of 6 after the ladder and then warp to level 1 and continue the route. It would save a screen and you skip going past the lynels. Just take the lost woods skip after level 2.

While I was messing around, I was wondering what the ladder was used for. Before the scroll glitch, it seems like people got it because you needed the PB anyway and you would want the ladder to go over the river instead of backtracking a lot. It's also used in a couple dungeons to get keys, but would getting those keys be necessary or are there other keys to get? I came up with a route that would get the ladder when you go to 6. Its overworld distance seems the same as the routes already presented and would require getting the most hellish of keys in the game: The one in level 9.

Here's my Leaving Ladder Later route:
Level 1
PB
Level 2
Flute warp to 1, 30 secret E of 3
Level 3
WS
Level 4
Flute warp to old 3, Candle, 100 Secret, Arrow
Level 5
Flute warp to old 7
Level 6 (get ladder too)
(HC N of 6)
Flute warp to old 2
Level 7
Flute warp to 1
Level 8
Level 9

I haven't tested keys yet, but on paper I think it comes out properly. Some are less efficient to get than ones on current routes. Since this route also doesn't save time on the overworld, I don't think it's worth seriously considering. But, it's interesting that the getting the ladder early probably doesn't really save much time if you use the scroll glitch.

The overworld route isn't going to make a whole lot of difference if there is only a few screens that are different. Close to 3/4 of the run is in dungeons anyway. Being efficient in dungeons is where the most time savings will be.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-09 09:07:52 pm

Highly Evolved

How do you propose going to level 2 from the power bracelet?

Solairflaire

2012-02-09 10:36:30 pm

Go right 1 screen, down 1, scroll glitch to lvl 2

Trebor

Edit history:

Trebor: 2012-02-09 10:41:44 pm

2012-02-09 10:37:18 pm

Trebdor the Selbonator

~~I can only assume to get back to Level 2 he'd walk back around and scroll across the river again. Or warp to 1 and do it from there, whichever is faster.~~ EDIT: shows how tired I am. Yeah, that's actually not bad at all. I could strike through the rest of this post, but it's better this way. Seems to be worth exploring.

I don't think trying to wait until later to get the Ladder isn't a bad idea to throw around. I considered it in routes a long time ago, but the scroll glitch wasn't even a thought in a console run then, so I dismissed it. I'm pretty sure that route would be slower though. The extra walking back to Level 2 would negate not going into Level 6 early.

What if you did a modified version of your marathon route? Level 2, Level 1, PB, Stairs to Level 3?, 30 secret, Level 3, Level 4, then what he has up there. Still not sure it would be any faster. I am completely on my way to bed right now, exhausted as hell. I'll explore it some tomorrow.

Darkwing Duck

2012-02-09 10:52:28 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Solairflaire:

Go right 1 screen, down 1, scroll glitch to lvl 2

Forgot about the blue stairs there.

Not a bad idea. The only two keys that are really obtainable that you'd have to get to negate the two you don't get are in 2 and 4. Have to kill the gibdos in the first room in two and kill the gibdos/kees/pol's voice room in 4.

Now other thoughts on no ladder:

Room with [-] river pattern with traps in four now becomes longer. Have to basically skip winding river Zol room w/ bomb drop and go the other way for key. Can't finish 8 or 7. Have to essentially back track to 8 (flute to old 5, not 1). A room in level 5 becomes exponentially more dangerous, another [-] room that's dark with red bubbles, 3 blue wizrobes, and 2 reds.

Can't flute warp to old 7 since you need to clear level 8 to open it up in your route. Probably have to go to 1 and backtrack through PB area.

Not sure there's a ton of savings in that route. Just ups the difficulty. Like the concept of PB and then 2, but not the no ladder idea, which comes with it.

[quote="Solairflaire"]Go right 1 screen, down 1, scroll glitch to lvl 2[/quote]
Forgot about the blue stairs there.

Not a bad idea.  The only two keys that are really obtainable that you'd have to get to negate the two you don't get are in 2 and 4.  Have to kill the gibdos in the first room in two and kill the gibdos/kees/pol's voice room in 4.

Now other thoughts on no ladder:

Room with [-] river pattern with traps in four now becomes longer.  Have to basically skip winding river Zol room w/ bomb drop and go the other way for key.  Can't finish 8 or 7.  Have to essentially back track to 8 (flute to old 5, not 1).  A room in level 5 becomes exponentially more dangerous, another [-] room that's dark with red bubbles, 3 blue wizrobes, and 2 reds.

Can't flute warp to old 7 since you need to clear level 8 to open it up in your route.  Probably have to go to 1 and backtrack through PB area.

Not sure there's a ton of savings in that route.  Just ups the difficulty.  Like the concept of PB and then 2, but not the no ladder idea, which comes with it.

Solairflaire

2012-02-09 11:11:25 pm

You could do PB and then 2 then go get the ladder, nothing is stopping that from being an option. Not sure if it would actually save time or not.

In 5, that room just sucks. Everything else is what I thought too.

I keep thinking beating 2 opens the warp to old 7 for some reason, not sure why. It would probably be faster to scroll glitch across the river south of 5 and then scroll glitch again to bypass the lost woods on the way to 6.

I did analysis on the routes, they all come within 3 or fewer screens of each other (before the warp to old 7 thing). So, there really isn't any time savings by getting the ladder later. It was just a "what if?" thought that I figured produced an interesting result.