The Legend of Zelda--all categories

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2012-01-10 04:06:21 pm

2011-09-27 09:36:23 pm

Highly Evolved

I cannot find any discussion on this particular category, or it's somewhere lost in the stupidity of the older LoZ threads. What's a good time here?

I came into the game wanting to find something I could possibly play if I go to AGDQ 2.0, and have found that through combining my best split times using live running strategies, my time could be 35:30 or so. Tweak the route a bit for a recorded run, and I can easily see sub-35. This route does not have the money making game.

What time would be a submittable run? I know the obvious answer is the one of my choosing, but I'd want to know if people would accept a 35:00 no up+A run.

Thread title:

romscout

2011-09-27 10:21:31 pm

that Metroidvania guy

Is there anything that would make TSA's removed/cheated run actually an unattainable time?

Darkwing Duck

2011-09-27 10:47:07 pm

Highly Evolved

Was his no Up+A?

From what I've gathered, he didn't do a no Up+A run.

PJ

2011-09-27 11:21:51 pm

Is PJ

There was a rejected run submitted awhile ago:

http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/the_legend_of_zelda__november_22nd_2009.html

I don't recall what the time was, but you should be much faster than that. [/nohelp]

Darkwing Duck

2011-09-27 11:29:13 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from PJ:

There was a rejected run submitted awhile ago:

http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/the_legend_of_zelda__november_22nd_2009.html

I don't recall what the time was, but you should be much faster than that. [/nohelp]

I've looked at that thread a few times. Memory tells me that run was around fifteen minutes slower than TSA's Up+A run at the time, so around 48 minutes. My best so far using marathon strategies (read: safe[r]) is 37:04.

Darkwing Duck

2011-09-29 03:16:09 am

Highly Evolved

Surprised this hasn't gotten a bit more interest.

Starting to play without getting the medicine. However, changing the route nets me only around 30 seconds or so, I believe. I can't find a way in this route where I can go straight to level 6 after beating level 7, even with the option of beating level 6 with the White Sword and getting the Magical Sword afterward.

My current route is as follows.

Level 3
Level 4
Level 1

These three levels fluctuate a bit on time depending on the bombs I have. Of course, for a recordable run, I'll have to have ideal bomb luck, but it hasn't been terribly bad. Mandhandla dropping bomb is the key.

White Sword
Level 5
Level 2
Meat
Level 7

Now, in my 37:13 w/ medicine run, I posted extremely good times in these three stages, and have currently only been able to best the level 7 time. My best overall run I just did lost about 45 seconds to these three levels. Blue darknuts on the peninsula.

100 secret below level 7
Eastern coastline for 2 heart containers and arrows
Level 6
Level 8

I have 10 heart containers coming out of level 7 and no arrow. I'll go more in depth with this in a minute.

Level 9

Getting better here all the time, especially since I've forgone medicine, forcing me to play better to make it through.

A bit more in depth on the after level 7 detour.

To beat level 6, you have to:

A) have the arrow
B) have at least 11 hearts

You have to have B) because six is so close to the magical sword, pretty much a necessary item for a speedrun. Arrows cost 80 rupees.

In the run, you must have 140 rupees, sixty more for bait. I like to have twenty more for a bomb buy if I need it when I buy arrows.

So essentially, you need a 100 secret to do this game quickly. The two reasonably located 100 secrets require a candle, and since I'm getting a candle so late, I don't have many options. I can't do the eastern coast before two, as I won't have enough money for arrows. I could conceivably get the two 30 secrets near Level 2, but then I'd have to have a tremendously lucky level 2 to afford bait. I'd say at least 50 rupees. It may be possible, though, which would end up with me skipping all 100 secrets. Need 80 rupees to drop, though.

Another option that wouldn't work is warping to one, getting the heart near one, warping back to 7, doing 6, and then getting the magical sword because I have no arrows.

The only other option I can see is getting the 30 secret above the start after level 4. This would make the dropped rupee (should I say rupy?) requirement only 50. Wouldn't add a whole lot of time, since it's only an extra screen plus the cave to get the 30 rupees. The issue is that if I do the east coast first, I can't warp to level 2, so I'd have to do it after level 2, and just thinking about it now, the fastest route would be to walk by level 8, because going north to south means you have to go to the island and back out of it, while going south to north means you can whistle out on the island.

Not sure how well going to the screen with level 8 without going in that dungeon will look.

So would this route be faster than the one above?

Level 3
Level 4
(30 secret)
Level 1
White Sword
Level 5
(2 30 secret)
Level 2
East Coast (2 HC, Arrow)
Meat
Level 7
Magic Sword
Level 6
Level 8
Winning time.

Versus

Level 3
Level 4
Level 1
White Sword
Level 5
Level 2
Meat
Level 7
(100 secret south of 7)
East Coast (2 HC, arrow)
Magic Sword
Level 6
Level 8
Winning time

Surprised this hasn't gotten a bit more interest.

Starting to play without getting the medicine.  However, changing the route nets me only around 30 seconds or so, I believe.  I can't find a way in this route where I can go straight to level 6 after beating level 7, even with the option of beating level 6 with the White Sword and getting the Magical Sword afterward.

My current route is as follows.

Level 3
Level 4
Level 1

These three levels fluctuate a bit on time depending on the bombs I have.  Of course, for a recordable run, I'll have to have ideal bomb luck, but it hasn't been terribly bad.  Mandhandla dropping bomb is the key.

White Sword
Level 5
Level 2
Meat
Level 7

Now, in my 37:13 w/ medicine run, I posted extremely good times in these three stages, and have currently only been able to best the level 7 time.  My best overall run I just did lost about 45 seconds to these three levels.  Blue darknuts on the peninsula.

100 secret below level 7
Eastern coastline for 2 heart containers and arrows
Level 6
Level 8

I have 10 heart containers coming out of level 7 and no arrow.  I'll go more in depth with this in a minute.

Level 9

Getting better here all the time, especially since I've forgone medicine, forcing me to play better to make it through.

A bit more in depth on the after level 7 detour.

To beat level 6, you have to:

A) have the arrow
B) have at least 11 hearts

You have to have B) because six is so close to the magical sword, pretty much a necessary item for a speedrun.  Arrows cost 80 rupees.

In the run, you must have 140 rupees, sixty more for bait. I like to have twenty more for a bomb buy if I need it when I buy arrows.

So essentially, you need a 100 secret to do this game quickly.  The two reasonably located 100 secrets require a candle, and since I'm getting a candle so late, I don't have many options.  I can't do the eastern coast before two, as I won't have enough money for arrows.  I could conceivably get the two 30 secrets near Level 2, but then I'd have to have a tremendously lucky level 2 to afford bait.  I'd say at least 50 rupees.  It may be possible, though, which would end up with me skipping all 100 secrets.  Need 80 rupees to drop, though.

Another option that wouldn't work is warping to one, getting the heart near one, warping back to 7, doing 6, and then getting the magical sword because I have no arrows.

The only other option I can see is getting the 30 secret above the start after level 4.  This would make the dropped rupee (should I say rupy?) requirement only 50.  Wouldn't add a whole lot of time, since it's only an extra screen plus the cave to get the 30 rupees.  The issue is that if I do the east coast first, I can't warp to level 2, so I'd have to do it after level 2, and just thinking about it now, the fastest route would be to walk by level 8, because going north to south means you have to go to the island and back out of it, while going south to north means you can whistle out on the island.

Not sure how well going to the screen with level 8 without going in that dungeon will look.

So would this route be faster than the one above?

Level 3
Level 4
(30 secret)
Level 1
White Sword
Level 5
(2 30 secret)
Level 2
East Coast (2 HC, Arrow)
Meat
Level 7
Magic Sword
Level 6
Level 8
Winning time.

Versus

Level 3
Level 4
Level 1
White Sword
Level 5
Level 2
Meat
Level 7
(100 secret south of 7)
East Coast (2 HC, arrow)
Magic Sword
Level 6
Level 8
Winning time

Darkwing Duck

2011-09-29 03:27:09 am

Highly Evolved

Breaking this up into two posts (organizational cleanliness is the official reason; it has nothing to do with the fact that I forgot to post my current best before I hit "Post").

My best time so far is 36:48. My best time combining my best split times is unavailable since Wsplit hasn't saved any splits after my 37:13 w/medicine (probably my fault).

BUT, I can say that in relation to my 37:13 time, my 36:48 time lost 45 seconds, as mentioned earlier, to levels 5, 2, and 7. I also missed Gohma and it closed its eye (ten seconds or so lost). I was about 32 seconds ahead in my splits after level 1 in relation to my 37:14, and I've been as much as 45 seconds ahead of that split, plus with a more aggressive level 3, means at least another 15-30 seconds there. So I think I can cut 70 seconds minimum off of 36:48, making my goal time 35:38.

That's 2 minutes behind TSA's removed time, and four minutes behind the claimed Up+A run. Lots better than that 2009 submission.

Darkwing Duck

2011-10-01 10:05:25 pm

Highly Evolved

Just completed a 36:17 run with the modified route, getting three 30 secrets instead of one 100 secret and not warping out of level 7 once it's finished.

solairflaire

2011-10-03 04:58:30 pm

Here's a slightly different idea for a route.

Level 3
Level 4
Level 1
White Sword
Level 5
(HC between 5 and 2) - do you get this one? I know it requires a bomb but it's on the way.
(100 secret above tree in NE)
(2 30 secrets near level 2)
Level 2
Buy candle (there's a shop just NE of level 8)
Level 8
East Coast (1 HC, arrow) - you only need one of the heart containers now
Level 7
Magic Sword
Level 6
go straight to level 9 and kick Ganon's butt
Win

Advantages: You do level 8 when you first go by it. Less overall travel with the warp flute. No need to get the red candle in 7. You only need 40 extra rupees from kills.

Disadvantages: Difficulty (level 8 specifically), Level 8 will take longer since you still have the white sword, out of way 100 rupees. Probably more I can't think of.

I have no idea if it would be faster. It was an idea I had for doing level 8 when you go by it the first time so you don't back track.

I personally am looking forward to you completing this run so good luck on whatever route you choose. Especially if you choose mine.

Here's a slightly different idea for a route.

Level 3
Level 4
Level 1
White Sword
Level 5
(HC between 5 and 2) - do you get this one? I know it requires a bomb but it's on the way.
(100 secret above tree in NE)
(2 30 secrets near level 2)
Level 2
Buy candle (there's a shop just NE of level 8)
Level 8
East Coast (1 HC, arrow) - you only need one of the heart containers now
Level 7
Magic Sword
Level 6
go straight to level 9 and kick Ganon's butt
Win

Advantages: You do level 8 when you first go by it. Less overall travel with the warp flute. No need to get the red candle in 7. You only need 40 extra rupees from kills.

Disadvantages: Difficulty (level 8 specifically), Level 8 will take longer since you still have the white sword, out of way 100 rupees. Probably more I can't think of.

I have no idea if it would be faster. It was an idea I had for doing level 8 when you go by it the first time so you don't back track.

I personally am looking forward to you completing this run so good luck on whatever route you choose. Especially if you choose mine.

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-10-03 06:41:49 pm

2011-10-03 06:07:49 pm

Highly Evolved

Clarification: I do get the heart container in the rock near level 2.

The walk to the 100 rupee is 9 extra screens. Getting the candle an extra 2. I'm going to lose a ton of time on level 8 as you mentioned.

The gain is not walking four screens from level 2 to level 8 (faster to warp to level 1 and walk to level 9 than it is to walk straight from level 6).

I don't see it faster in any way.

The argument of doing level 8 with the White Sword is certainly debatable. I always come to the point that it's only 4 screens from level 2, and thus a 20-30 walk at most. You're going to lose most, if not all, that time fighting the Gleeok, so you'd have to do bomb+sword kills faster than straight sword kills, and I don't think that would ever happen.

EDIT: Probably be faster to get 100 secret south of 7 and then get arrow and meat in your scenario. Only 4 or 5 extra screens.

Breakdown

2011-10-03 06:50:38 pm

Haters gonna hate

Quick post, but great times so far. I really wouldn't be so quick to discount level 8 with the white sword as slower. One important thing you aren't factoring in is it requires one less overworld HC as well (assuming you do 6 last), so that's more screens to factor in. And I don't see how you lose 20-30 to the Gleeok, it's only 5 extra swings.

Route I've been kicking around in my head:
Grab any and all rupees early (red leevers should all die)
3
4 (grab all 10 rupees in "secret" room)
1
Through the desert, get HC north of 2, 30 secret 1 screen east, buy candle 2 screens north of HC, White Sword
5
Whistle to 1, HC south of 1, 100 secret by south coast
8
2
Whistle to 3, arrows, meat
7
Magic Sword
6
Whistle to 1 (think it's faster than the straight shot to 9, definitely way easier)
9

Need rupee luck in addition to bomb luck (20 pre candle, 40 pre meat/arrows), but this seems pretty streamlined to me. The 40 at the end isn't too outrageous with level 2 and the zol room in level 5 (they're in the rupee heavy prize pool, and you get 5 rupees for clearing the room).

Quick post, but great times so far.  I really wouldn't be so quick to discount level 8 with the white sword as slower.  One important thing you aren't factoring in is it requires one less overworld HC as well (assuming you do 6 last), so that's more screens to factor in.  And I don't see how you lose 20-30 to the Gleeok, it's only 5 extra swings.

Route I've been kicking around in my head:
Grab any and all rupees early (red leevers should all die)
3
4 (grab all 10 rupees in "secret" room)
1
Through the desert, get HC north of 2, 30 secret 1 screen east, buy candle 2 screens north of HC, White Sword
5
Whistle to 1, HC south of 1, 100 secret by south coast
8
2
Whistle to 3, arrows, meat
7
Magic Sword
6
Whistle to 1 (think it's faster than the straight shot to 9, definitely way easier)
9

Need rupee luck in addition to bomb luck (20 pre candle, 40 pre meat/arrows), but this seems pretty streamlined to me.  The 40 at the end isn't too outrageous with level 2 and the zol room in level 5 (they're in the rupee heavy prize pool, and you get 5 rupees for clearing the room).

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-10-03 07:38:17 pm

2011-10-03 07:33:22 pm

Highly Evolved

I calculate that route to have 18 fewer overworld screens. Not fully sure how much time it would save on the overworld, given how much you have to move on each screen and enemies kills, etc.

Let's see on bomb luck requirements.

3-4-1 are the same. I often have just one bomb coming out of one. Need three now. Subtract one from my route since not getting the starting point 30 rupee. Use three in level 1, so need either a drop from one of the three Goriyas (ugh) or have six coming out of four, requiring a drop from the final Vire room, plus a likely drop from an earlier Vire room, depends on how many bombs are needed to kill the Vires before the ladder room, and if I use bombs to speed up the Like-Like/Zol room.

In my current route, I need two bombs out of 3, and require full bombs out of 2.

Have to realistically get to full bombs for 8, and can only realistically use six bombs for 11 darknuts with fireball statues. This is the killer for me. I don't want to rely on rare non bomb enemy bomb drops to get through 8, and there's no way to get to ten consecutive enemy kills in level 8 without wasting time dodging fireballs. 9 hearts could be a problem, hard to be at full strength spending more time in the darknut rooms. Would have to dance around the Gleeok more.

What are the numbers for the white sword? 9 for the magic sword. 3 initial and 2 every one after. It's 9 initial and 6 every consecutive with the wooden sword, so that should be 6 and 4 for the white sword. That's 9 extra swings.

Likely to be depleted of bombs after 8, but that's not an issue since you're going to 2. Have to be full out of 2, which is likely but not guaranteed with no bombs going in since 7 requires 7 bombs. 6 requires a single bomb, but you need six going to level 9, requiring two bomb drops from inside level six to nine, which isn't an issue.

What's a reasonable expectation of a time for level 8? My split is from grabbing the triforce piece in level 6 to the one in 8, which includes warping to 2 and grabbing the key through the right door at the beginning of 8. My best time is 2:36. I imagine I do level 8 in less than two minutes on my current route. I'll take a look at my 36:17, which does level 8 split in 2:46 and edit that in.

Edit: It was 1:56, and it was terrible. Should be around 1:40 in a good run through that level.

I calculate that route to have 18 fewer overworld screens.  Not fully sure how much time it would save on the overworld, given how much you have to move on each screen and enemies kills, etc.

Let's see on bomb luck requirements.

3-4-1 are the same.  I often have just one bomb coming out of one.  Need three now.  Subtract one from my route since not getting the starting point 30 rupee.  Use three in level 1, so need either a drop from one of the three Goriyas (ugh) or have six coming out of four, requiring a drop from the final Vire room, plus a likely drop from an earlier Vire room, depends on how many bombs are needed to kill the Vires before the ladder room, and if I use bombs to speed up the Like-Like/Zol room.

In my current route, I need two bombs out of 3, and require full bombs out of 2.

Have to realistically get to full bombs for 8, and can only realistically use six bombs for 11 darknuts with fireball statues.  This is the killer for me.  I don't want to rely on rare non bomb enemy bomb drops to get through 8, and there's no way to get to ten consecutive enemy kills in level 8 without wasting time dodging fireballs.   9 hearts could be a problem, hard to be at full strength spending more time in the darknut rooms.  Would have to dance around the Gleeok more.

What are the numbers for the white sword?  9 for the magic sword.  3 initial and 2 every one after.  It's 9 initial and 6 every consecutive with the wooden sword, so that should be 6 and 4 for the white sword.  That's 9 extra swings.

Likely to be depleted of bombs after 8, but that's not an issue since you're going to 2.  Have to be full out of 2, which is likely but not guaranteed with no bombs going in since 7 requires 7 bombs.  6 requires a single bomb, but you need six going to level 9, requiring two bomb drops from inside level six to nine, which isn't an issue.

What's a reasonable expectation of a time for level 8?  My split is from grabbing the triforce piece in level 6 to the one in 8, which includes warping to 2 and grabbing the key through the right door at the beginning of 8.  My best time is 2:36.  I imagine I do level 8 in less than two minutes on my current route.  I'll take a look at my 36:17, which does level 8 split in 2:46 and edit that in.

Edit:  It was 1:56, and it was terrible.  Should be around 1:40 in a good run through that level.

Breakdown

2011-10-03 08:23:17 pm

Haters gonna hate

Gleeok with the white sword is 5 for the first, 3 for subsequent. 5 more hits.

For a fast time through 8 you would want as many bombs as possible, though the same is still true to a lesser extent with the magic sword (still don't want to waste a chance when they group up). It's just much more luck based with the white sword since not scoring hits with the bombs means that many more swings. Ideally, you'd want at least 4 bombs after level 1 so you can count on having at least 3 going into 8 (which you could reliably turn into 5 by pausing to take out a Dodongo in level 5, but that takes time obviously) assuming you're only using 1 bomb on level 5's Digdogger (which you should). Only enemies on the way that drop bombs are a couple blue octoroks and the blue moblins, not good odds. Two offensive bombs won't get the job done usually (you can put a serious dent in the first darknut room though, they seem to like to bunch up at the start). That was rambly, but long and short of it is it takes a healthy dose of luck, and I'd guess that if you got the necessary luck (read: close to full bombs going in and effective use of them) you could get through inside of two minutes. 3 would probably be closer to average with a decent amount of swordplay.

Didn't say it'd be easy or more consistent (I wouldn't touch this route for a marathon run), just said it could be faster, and I really think it can be.

Gleeok with the white sword is 5 for the first, 3 for subsequent.  5 more hits.

For a fast time through 8 you would want as many bombs as possible, though the same is still true to a lesser extent with the magic sword (still don't want to waste a chance when they group up).  It's just much more luck based with the white sword since not scoring hits with the bombs means that many more swings.  Ideally, you'd want at least 4 bombs after level 1 so you can count on having at least 3 going into 8 (which you could reliably turn into 5 by pausing to take out a Dodongo in level 5, but that takes time obviously) assuming you're only using 1 bomb on level 5's Digdogger (which you should).  Only enemies on the way that drop bombs are a couple blue octoroks and the blue moblins, not good odds.  Two offensive bombs won't get the job done usually (you can put a serious dent in the first darknut room though, they seem to like to bunch up at the start).  That was rambly, but long and short of it is it takes a healthy dose of luck, and I'd guess that if you got the necessary luck (read: close to full bombs going in and effective use of them) you could get through inside of two minutes.  3 would probably be closer to average with a decent amount of swordplay.

Didn't say it'd be easy or more consistent (I wouldn't touch this route for a marathon run), just said it could be faster, and I really think it can be.

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-10-05 11:11:51 pm

2011-10-05 11:07:31 pm

Highly Evolved

I guess I'm resisting White Sword level 8 because I don't want to burn out on failures.

Would you reject my route at, say, 35:15, because there are faster (how much faster is debatable) routes out there?

Breakdown

Edit history:

Breakdown: 2011-10-06 07:16:33 pm

2011-10-06 07:15:13 pm

Haters gonna hate

I'd be harsher on a run that I thought was using a sub optimal route, if it was really solid run on a not incredibly suboptimal route though of course I'd let it in. Not sure exactly how solid 35:15 is since I don't know your current route, it sounds really good though. Did you get that time, or are you just throwing it out as an example?

If you're really opposed to doing 8 with the white sword, I think you could still use a slightly modified version of the route I listed. Just get the HC south of the 100 secret after grabbing it and then go to 2, then hit 8 after 6. This adds 6 screens (counting the HC cave), two whistle warps, and a little inventory time. You could take 3 more screens to buy bombs (counting the shop) after 8, but I think it'd be faster to just not use bombs in 8 with the magic sword than having to restock. Of course ideally you could use a few in 8 and get a drop in 9, but that's getting into very high risk territory late in a run. Anyways, judging from your figure of 18 screens saved with the first route, this variation would still be faster than your current route by a good margin, and have you doing 8 with the magic sword. Something to consider.

I'd be harsher on a run that I thought was using a sub optimal route, if it was really solid run on a not incredibly suboptimal route though of course I'd let it in.  Not sure exactly how solid 35:15 is since I don't know your current route, it sounds really good though.  Did you get that time, or are you just throwing it out as an example?

If you're really opposed to doing 8 with the white sword, I think you could still use a slightly modified version of the route I listed.  Just get the HC south of the 100 secret after grabbing it and then go to 2, then hit 8 after 6.  This adds 6 screens (counting the HC cave), two whistle warps, and a little inventory time.  You could take 3 more screens to buy bombs (counting the shop) after 8, but I think it'd be faster to just not use bombs in 8 with the magic sword than having to restock.  Of course ideally you could use a few in 8 and get a drop in 9, but that's getting into very high risk territory late in a run.  Anyways, judging from your figure of 18 screens saved with the first route, this variation would still be faster than your current route by a good margin, and have you doing 8 with the magic sword.  Something to consider.

Solairflaire

2011-10-06 08:16:00 pm

I'm not sure where you got 18 screens of difference unless you were comparing my original idea with Breakdown's. I went and decided to run some numbers to see what I got. I've attached the results. Full rules I used are in the spreadsheet. It's an Excel 2003 document so adjust your setting if you need to (I have an old computer). If you can't view it for whatever reason, I'll just have to make a big post.

My main goal with the analysis is to determine total overworld travel time, which I'll put below as well. If you see any errors or don't understand something, let me know. I used http://nesmaps.com/maps/Zelda/ZeldaOverworld1stQuest.html for a map of the overworld to help me count.

Darkwing's current route: 116 screens
Breakdown's original: 108 screens
Breakdown's Alternate: 115 screens (this may be incorrect, I did a quick and dirty count)
Solairflaire's with correction for rupee route: 112

Assuming you average 4 seconds per screen (this is the time it takes to go left to right omitting screen transition) total times are:
DW: 464 seconds (7 min 44 seconds)
BD original: 432 seconds (7 min 12 seconds)
BD alternate: 460 seconds (7 min 40 seconds)
Sol: 448 seconds (7 min 28 seconds)

Also, I don't think too many people here would reject a run solely because it used a slightly sub optimal route, assuming the rest of the run was really good. Since it seems that the most time lost would be in lvl 8 with either Breakdown's or my route, what you should probably do is test lvl 8 and see what times you get when you have full bombs and go blow up some nuts with them (so testing at optimal conditions). Also test how much time is saved by not getting the red candle in lvl 7, since that is also important for those routes.

I'm not sure where you got 18 screens of difference unless you were comparing my original idea with Breakdown's. I went and decided to run some numbers to see what I got. I've attached the results. Full rules I used are in the spreadsheet. It's an Excel 2003 document so adjust your setting if you need to (I have an old computer). If you can't view it for whatever reason, I'll just have to make a big post.

My main goal with the analysis is to determine total overworld travel time, which I'll put below as well. If you see any errors or don't understand something, let me know. I used [url]http://nesmaps.com/maps/Zelda/ZeldaOverworld1stQuest.html[/url] for a map of the overworld to help me count.

Darkwing's current route: 116 screens 
Breakdown's original: 108 screens
Breakdown's Alternate: 115 screens (this may be incorrect, I did a quick and dirty count)
Solairflaire's with correction for rupee route: 112

Assuming you average 4 seconds per screen (this is the time it takes to go left to right omitting screen transition) total times are:
DW: 464 seconds (7 min 44 seconds)
BD original: 432 seconds (7 min 12 seconds)
BD alternate: 460 seconds (7 min 40 seconds)
Sol: 448 seconds (7 min 28 seconds)

Also, I don't think too many people here would reject a run solely because it used a slightly sub optimal route, assuming the rest of the run was really good. Since it seems that the most time lost would be in lvl 8 with either Breakdown's or my route, what you should probably do is test lvl 8 and see what times you get when you have full bombs and go blow up some nuts with them (so testing at optimal conditions). Also test how much time is saved by not getting the red candle in lvl 7, since that is also important for those routes.

Attachment:

Zelda 1 Route Analysis.xls

Darkwing Duck

2011-10-08 05:56:10 pm

Highly Evolved

Don't have Excel on this comp.

An optimal run of getting the red candle is actually pretty fast if I get a bomb drop in 7 or have the beam sword. Either the blue candle shop can't be too out of the way or there are time savers by having a candle before the end of level 7. One of those time savers may be the HC south of 1.

tmont

2011-10-09 05:46:45 am

Not going to school today

I made a route for this run about six years ago. It's probably good for a laugh. The enthusiasm of the other speedrunners was a bit stifling, though...

http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/the_legend_of_zelda_no_upa.html

ZenicReverie

2011-10-09 10:08:42 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Don't have Excel on this comp.

Here's a copy/paste for you.

Walking info:
Left Right Movement edge of screen to edge of screen:
Up Down Movement edge of screen to edge of screen:
These assume no obstacles or monsters in the way
Screen transition time is not included

Flute Info:
Flute tune (in case you need to use it multiple times to get to destination):
Using flute and Whirwind takes you off screen:
Arriving at destination and going off screen:
This can mean using the flute could add lots of extra time if you need to blow it multiple times
Screen transition times are not included
Inventory time not included

Rules for total # of overworld screens:
Walking to a cave and going in (including dungeons) counts as 1 screen
Coming out of a cave (including dungeons) and leaving the screen counts as 1 screen
Blowing the flute and leaving screen counts as 1 screen (even if multiple blowing are needed, this is for simplicity)
Arriving at flute destination and leaving screen counts as 1 screen
Lost Woods and Mountain south of Level 5 counted as 1 screen
Numbers are what is needed to get into that destination from previous location

Solairflaire Route:
Level 1: 8
White S: 9
Level 5: 7
Level 2: 16 (HC, 2 30 Rupee secrets, warp to lvl 1)
Level 8: 8 (getting candle)
HC, A, M: 16 (east coast HC, 100 R south of lvl 7, arrow, meat, warp to lvl 3)
Level 7: 6
Magic S: 13
Level 6: 4
Level 9: 9 (warping to lvl 1)
Total: 112

Breakdown's Route:
Level 1: 8
White S, C: 15 (HC, Candle)
Level 5: 7
Level 8: 16 (HC south of Lvl 1, 100 Rupee secret in forest, warp to lvl 1)
Level 2: 5
A, M 9 (warp to lvl 3)
Level 7: 6
Magic S: 13
Level 6: 4
Level 9: 9 (warp to lvl 1)
Total: 108

Breakdown Alternate
Lvl 1: 8
WS, C 15 (HC, Candle)
Lvl 5: 7
2 HC, Rup 14 (HC south of lvl 1, 100 R secret, HC south of that)
Lvl 2 8
A, M 9 (warp to lvl 3)
Lvl 7 6
MS 13
Lvl 6 4
Lvl 8 6 (warp to lvl 2)
Lvl 9 9 (warp to lvl 1)
Total: 115

Darkwing's Route
Level 1: 10 (30 Rupee Secret north of start)
White S: 9
Level 5: 7
Level 2: 16 (HC, 2 30 Rupee secrets, warp to lvl 1)
A, M: 20 (2 HC, Arrows, Meat, warp to lvl 3)
Level 7: 6
Magic S: 13
Level 6: 4
Level 8: 6 (warp to lvl 2)
Level 9: 9 (warp to lvl 1)
Total: 116

If you're willing to download, OpenOffice is free and shouldn't have any problem opening this sheet.

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]Don't have Excel on this comp.[/quote]
Here's a copy/paste for you.
[hidden="Information"]Walking info:
Left Right Movement edge of screen to edge of screen:
Up Down Movement edge of screen to edge of screen:
These assume no obstacles or monsters in the way
Screen transition time is not included

Flute Info:
Flute tune (in case you need to use it multiple times to get to destination):
Using flute and Whirwind takes you off screen:
Arriving at destination and going off screen:
This can mean using the flute could add lots of extra time if you need to blow it multiple times
Screen transition times are not included
Inventory time not included

Rules for total # of overworld screens:
Walking to a cave and going in (including dungeons) counts as 1 screen
Coming out of a cave (including dungeons) and leaving the screen counts as 1 screen
Blowing the flute and leaving screen counts as 1 screen (even if multiple blowing are needed, this is for simplicity)
Arriving at flute destination and leaving screen counts as 1 screen
Lost Woods and Mountain south of Level 5 counted as 1 screen
Numbers are what is needed to get into that destination from previous location
[/hidden][hidden="Routes"]Solairflaire Route:		
Level 1:	8	
White S:	9	
Level 5:	7	
Level 2:	16	(HC, 2 30 Rupee secrets, warp to lvl 1)
Level 8:	8	(getting candle)
HC, A, M:	16	(east coast HC, 100 R south of lvl 7, arrow, meat, warp to lvl 3)
Level 7:	6	
Magic S:	13	
Level 6:	4	
Level 9:	9	(warping to lvl 1)
Total:	112

Breakdown's Route:		
Level 1:	8	
White S, C:	15	(HC, Candle)
Level 5:	7	
Level 8:	16	(HC south of Lvl 1, 100 Rupee secret in forest, warp to lvl 1)
Level 2:	5	
A, M	9	(warp to lvl 3)
Level 7:	6	
Magic S:	13	
Level 6:	4	
Level 9:	9	(warp to lvl 1)
Total:	108

Breakdown Alternate		
Lvl 1:	8	
WS, C	15	(HC, Candle)
Lvl 5:	7	
2 HC, Rup	14	(HC south of lvl 1, 100 R secret, HC south of that)
Lvl 2	8	
A, M	9	(warp to lvl 3)
Lvl 7	6	
MS	13	
Lvl 6	4	
Lvl 8	6	(warp to lvl 2)
Lvl 9	9	(warp to lvl 1)
Total:	115

Darkwing's Route		
Level 1:	10	(30 Rupee Secret north of start)
White S:	9	
Level 5:	7	
Level 2:	16	(HC, 2 30 Rupee secrets, warp to lvl 1)
A, M:	20	(2 HC, Arrows, Meat, warp to lvl 3)
Level 7:	6	
Magic S:	13	
Level 6:	4	
Level 8:	6	(warp to lvl 2)
Level 9:	9	(warp to lvl 1)
Total:	116	
[/hidden]

If you're willing to download, OpenOffice is free and shouldn't have any problem opening this sheet.

Darkwing Duck

2011-10-09 01:36:43 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from tmont:

I made a route for this run about six years ago. It's probably good for a laugh. The enthusiasm of the other speedrunners was a bit stifling, though...

http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/the_legend_of_zelda_no_upa.html

Times change, and so do routes.

Heidrage

2011-10-09 01:39:23 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Quote from tmont:

I made a route for this run about six years ago. It's probably good for a laugh. The enthusiasm of the other speedrunners was a bit stifling, though...

http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/the_legend_of_zelda_no_upa.html

Times change, and so do routes.

Win statement

Solairflaire

Edit history:

Solairflaire: 2011-10-10 05:35:01 am

2011-10-10 05:34:17 am

Apparently I didn't save the version where I had the times for the walking speed and flute stuff in one cell. I noticed it didn't copy when you copied them Zenic.

Here it is:
Walking info:
Left Right Movement edge of screen to edge of screen: 4 sec.
Up Down Movement edge of screen to edge of screen: 3 sec.

Flute Info:
Flute tune (in case you need to use it multiple times to get to destination): 2.5 sec.
Using flute and Whirwind takes you off screen: 4.5 sec
Arriving at destination and going off screen: 3 sec. (average, varies by location)

I suppose multiple flute uses doesn't add a lot of time, but it does add some at least. I also didn't include, nor figure out, screen transitions. I don't think the differences between routes is large enough for it to make any real difference.

ZenicReverie

2011-10-10 08:40:25 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

oh, I didn't notice, should have double checked. the copy/paste.

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-10-18 06:18:32 pm

2011-10-18 12:40:17 am

Highly Evolved

Well, did a little playing around with Breakdown's modified route. Looks like I'll pick up a bit of time if I go through it well. Won't be a bunch, though.

EDIT:

As far as rupees are concerned, I had to kill a couple extra Tektites to get to sixty and got to the meat and arrow with 140 rupees exactly

Darkwing Duck

2011-10-19 04:04:41 am

Highly Evolved

Quote from Breakdown:

If you're really opposed to doing 8 with the white sword, I think you could still use a slightly modified version of the route I listed. Just get the HC south of the 100 secret after grabbing it and then go to 2, then hit 8 after 6. This adds 6 screens (counting the HC cave), two whistle warps, and a little inventory time. You could take 3 more screens to buy bombs (counting the shop) after 8, but I think it'd be faster to just not use bombs in 8 with the magic sword than having to restock. Of course ideally you could use a few in 8 and get a drop in 9, but that's getting into very high risk territory late in a run. Anyways, judging from your figure of 18 screens saved with the first route, this variation would still be faster than your current route by a good margin, and have you doing 8 with the magic sword. Something to consider.

Second day of practicing this modified route and I'm unfortunately not seeing the gains I actually kind of expected to see. Haven't figured out where I end up behind. I made different splits for this route and only four of the nine are modified, the middle four, levels 1, 5, 2, and 7. Currently, adding up the best segments for those four, there is around a twenty second difference in favor of my route. Of course, these twenty seconds can be just a bit of unfamiliarity of the route, but I'm not seeing much improvement. Level 1 isn't going to change that much, even with the opportunity of skipping the first set of leevers. Even with skipping the leevers below one and the four rupees in Level 4 I have a good chance to get 60 for the candle. In any case, I'm only going to be ahead with the new route a max of around 15 seconds from my route, and I'm already 12-13 seconds ahead with my best split.

Level 5 is admittedly hard to determine how I lost time. I should calculate how long going the opposite route takes me. (Did some checking.) Okay. Looks like it takes roughly a minute longer on Breakdown's route and the differential in my best split is 1:24, so time can be gained there.

23 seconds slower on Level 2 split. Won't change much there.

Should gain 1:00 for level 7. Takes me about 70 seconds to do the eastern coast after 2, but it takes about 10 seconds to buy the arrow no matter where you are, so you subtract that. My split has me gaining 1:17, so that's about 17 seconds gained from not getting the red candle, which I lose to getting the blue candle, so that part is a wash, I think. I can definitely get the red candle in 17 seconds upon entering the room if I have good luck on it.

Cutting down on a bit of walking seems like the only place I'm going to gain some time. It's probably worth it for 15 seconds, which I think is all I'd be getting. I'll continue to work on the blue candle route.

I do believe my goal now is sub 35:00. I'd probably submit any recording of under 35 minutes. I also learned I can do 3 and 4 under 6:00, so I'll be looking for around 5:50 or lower there.

[quote="Breakdown"]
If you're really opposed to doing 8 with the white sword, I think you could still use a slightly modified version of the route I listed.  Just get the HC south of the 100 secret after grabbing it and then go to 2, then hit 8 after 6.  This adds 6 screens (counting the HC cave), two whistle warps, and a little inventory time.  You could take 3 more screens to buy bombs (counting the shop) after 8, but I think it'd be faster to just not use bombs in 8 with the magic sword than having to restock.  Of course ideally you could use a few in 8 and get a drop in 9, but that's getting into very high risk territory late in a run.  Anyways, judging from your figure of 18 screens saved with the first route, this variation would still be faster than your current route by a good margin, and have you doing 8 with the magic sword.  Something to consider.[/quote]

Second day of practicing this modified route and I'm unfortunately not seeing the gains I actually kind of expected to see.  Haven't figured out where I end up behind.  I made different splits for this route and only four of the nine are modified, the middle four, levels 1, 5, 2, and 7.  Currently, adding up the best segments for those four, there is around a twenty second difference in favor of my route.  Of course, these twenty seconds can be just a bit of unfamiliarity of the route, but I'm not seeing much improvement.  Level 1 isn't going to change that much, even with the opportunity of skipping the first set of leevers.  Even with skipping the leevers below one and the four rupees in Level 4 I have a good chance to get 60 for the candle.  In any case, I'm only going to be ahead with the new route a max of around 15 seconds from my route, and I'm already 12-13 seconds ahead with my best split.

Level 5 is admittedly hard to determine how I lost time.  I should calculate how long going the opposite route takes me.  (Did some checking.)  Okay.  Looks like it takes roughly a minute longer on Breakdown's route and the differential in my best split is 1:24, so time can be gained there.

23 seconds slower on Level 2 split.  Won't change much there.

Should gain 1:00 for level 7.  Takes me about 70 seconds to do the eastern coast after 2, but it takes about 10 seconds to buy the arrow no matter where you are, so you subtract that.  My split has me gaining 1:17, so that's about 17 seconds gained from not getting the red candle, which I lose to getting the blue candle, so that part is a wash, I think.  I can definitely get the red candle in 17 seconds upon entering the room if I have good luck on it.

Cutting down on a bit of walking seems like the only place I'm going to gain some time.  It's probably worth it for 15 seconds, which I think is all I'd be getting.  I'll continue to work on the blue candle route.

I do believe my goal now is sub 35:00.  I'd probably submit any recording of under 35 minutes.  I also learned I can do 3 and 4 under 6:00, so I'll be looking for around 5:50 or lower there.