The Legend of Zelda--all categories

2013-01-05 11:37:47 pm

Quote from Solairflaire:

The question is, how much do you want to see someone go in and out of the same cave?

Same problem as bomb and arrow upgrades in ALttP, really. Getting them seems more "legit" in a hardcore kind of way, but it is neither fun to watch nor do. They aren't required in ALttP, obviously, so there's some precedence for leaving some things out of the definition for such purposes. That said, some items under debate have a significant effect on gameplay (blue ring, for example), but bomb upgrades really just let you go "Ahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa! I will blow up all of Hyrule!" which may be amusing, but only saves time in 1-5 second or so bursts that are dependent on enemies cooperating. Plus, 100% ALttP gets Red Armor. I still lean towards getting the shield upgrade, too.

But the math is much more forgiving if bomb upgrades are left out. If the 200 rupees are subtracted from the 650 total, that leaves 80 required from drops/money making game (450 required, 370 from overworld, 450-370=80).

So I guess I lean towards getting everything mentioned but bomb upgrades, and allowing hearts to be spent so long as they are all acquired.

[quote="Solairflaire"]The question is, how much do you want to see someone go in and out of the same cave?[/quote]
Same problem as bomb and arrow upgrades in ALttP, really.  Getting them seems more "legit" in a hardcore kind of way, but it is neither fun to watch nor do.  They aren't required in ALttP, obviously, so there's some precedence for leaving some things out of the definition for such purposes.  That said, some items under debate have a significant effect on gameplay (blue ring, for example), but bomb upgrades really just let you go "Ahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa!  I will blow up all of Hyrule!" which may be amusing, but only saves time in 1-5 second or so bursts that are dependent on enemies cooperating.  Plus, 100% ALttP gets Red Armor.  I still lean towards getting the shield upgrade, too.

But the math is much more forgiving if bomb upgrades are left out.  If the 200 rupees are subtracted from the 650 total, that leaves 80 required from drops/money making game (450 required, 370 from overworld, 450-370=80).

So I guess I lean towards getting everything mentioned but bomb upgrades, and allowing hearts to be spent so long as they are all acquired.

presjpolk

2013-01-06 05:08:14 am

HELLO!

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

43:00. I didn't save the recording, though. How many were watching my stream at the time? 50?

Got it over a week ago since it's no longer on my twitch page.

I was there, which is how it got on my Records page.

Pretty sure it was actually 42:59 but your wsplit made it 43:00? Smiley

presjpolk

2013-01-06 05:10:08 am

HELLO!

Pretty sure the shield upgrade in LttP is permanent? So I don't know if it's comparable.

AlecK47

2013-01-11 11:45:58 am

Yeah, it's permanent if for no other reason than the Mirror Shield is a dungeon item. So maybe OoT is a better comparison in that regard, because you can actually lose the Mirror Shield there.

Darkwing Duck

2013-01-12 03:34:47 am

Highly Evolved

Quote from AlecK47:

Yeah, it's permanent if for no other reason than the Mirror Shield is a dungeon item. So maybe OoT is a better comparison in that regard, because you can actually lose the Mirror Shield there.

I don't know how you can lose mirror shield in OoT, but it's still a dungeon item, so it's still not the right comparison. I don't think there is one, really. The best shield is bought and losable. I don't know of an analogous game that has that.

Melodia

2013-01-12 10:54:54 am

Mirror sheild is bought and loseable in the course of playing normally in OOT? How? I can';t imagine they'd let Like-Likes eat it considering you need it to finish Spirit in the way they intended, and there's nothing stopping you from getting the shield and going somewhere with one.

Working DK

2013-01-12 03:34:21 pm

I'll chime in that I think the bomb upgrades are not necessary. 100% is about collecting all items, not the quantity of items. If you have bombs, you have bombs. And I think the Magic Shield should be obtained, if you lose it, oh well. But you did collect it, just like the bait, or the Heart Containers in 2nd quest that I think can be given away. All other items should be collected as have been stated. Only Magic Boomerang, Magic Sword, etc, forget the lower/middle tier crap. Keep it simple, complete a run. Smiley

presjpolk

2013-01-12 04:18:51 pm

HELLO!

By that definition then why don't we collect all maps, compasses, and keys?

Lazy DK

2013-01-13 12:10:36 am

Because they don't become a part of your permanent working or "traveling" inventory. They are dungeon specific. You could argue keys, but the Lion Key is a master and thus obsoletes regular keys, like the magic boomerang/sword.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-01-13 02:12:22 am

2013-01-13 02:06:02 am

HELLO!

Good point on keys.

Anyway, on another topic, for the record: to simulate yelling at Pol's Voice on [Japanese] Virtual Console, spin the right analog stick on the classic controller/pro.

AlecK47

2013-01-18 07:41:10 pm

In the interest of not saying anything silly in a sleep-deprived haze (damn you AGDQ!), I'll simply retract my previous statements in favor of a different argument. 100% implies, in my opinion at least, that items (not levels, or comparable things) that improve your abilities in the game should be included in the run. Often times other things are included as well, but I won't get into that. I understand the logic behind bomb upgrades being left out, but I still find the shield a sticking point on 100% because it does provide a non-numerical benefit (outside of the code, obviously). That said, does the community really need to embrace 100% in this game? Other games have definitions that make more sense for them that serve the same purpose (example: Mario 64 does not require all coins, because the definition is "120 Stars"). Other games have made use of semantics in similar ways to get a more sensible definition of "100%" than the literal one. So on that note, I encourage those who play this game regularly to bear this in mind, lest you be beset with those like me who have only completed half the game. You know more than I do, but others like me may not be as understanding.

As for compasses, keys, etc., there's more than enough precedent to leave them out (every other Zelda game that has them does).

In the interest of not saying anything silly in a sleep-deprived haze (damn you AGDQ!), I'll simply retract my previous statements in favor of a different argument.  100% implies, in my opinion at least, that items (not levels, or comparable things) that improve your abilities in the game should be included in the run.  Often times other things are included as well, but I won't get into that.  I understand the logic behind bomb upgrades being left out, but I still find the shield a sticking point on 100% because it does provide a non-numerical benefit (outside of the code, obviously).  That said, does the community really need to embrace 100% in this game?  Other games have definitions that make more sense for them that serve the same purpose (example: Mario 64 does not require all coins, because the definition is "120 Stars").  Other games have made use of semantics in similar ways to get a more sensible definition of "100%" than the literal one.  So on that note, I encourage those who play this game regularly to bear this in mind, lest you be beset with those like me who have only completed half the game.  You know more than I do, but others like me may not be as understanding.

As for compasses, keys, etc., there's more than enough precedent to leave them out (every other Zelda game that has them does).

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-01-18 09:58:09 pm

2013-01-18 09:57:53 pm

HELLO!

Well I'm wanting to run 100% because I'm a wussy and want bombs and red ring. Smiley

Countneko

2013-01-20 08:35:19 am

Oh yeah, by the way, how did you get the Japanese version on your console, presjpolk?

snorlax

2013-01-20 01:12:10 pm

zzzzzzzzzz

I am 100% in favor of bomb upgrades being included. Other things like showing the letter, buying a potion, and buying a shield I could go either way on.

presjpolk

2013-01-20 01:20:17 pm

HELLO!

Quote from Countneko:

Oh yeah, by the way, how did you get the Japanese version on your console, presjpolk?

Got a Japanese Wii, giving me access to the Japanese Virtual Console.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-01-27 05:23:45 am

2013-01-27 05:23:21 am

HELLO!

Changed my mind. It's even wussier, I mean easier, to run any%. The Blue Ring (suddenly buyable when I'm not buying bombs) matters a lot more than I thought it did. I don't even miss the bombs. So defining this category is less urgent in my mind now. Smiley

Darkwing Duck

2013-03-08 04:23:49 am

Highly Evolved

Well, if you haven't been watching, I've been working on besting my record. Got a few minor strats and such to implement and have been doing attempts since my run went on SDA.

Got this an hour or so ago.

http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/c/2000903

lpfreak1170

Edit history:

lpfreak1170: 2013-03-08 02:47:15 pm

2013-03-08 02:46:54 pm

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Well, if you haven't been watching, I've been working on besting my record. Got a few minor strats and such to implement and have been doing attempts since my run went on SDA.

Got this an hour or so ago.

http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/c/2000903

Very nice run!

Uilnslcoap

2013-03-09 06:16:35 pm

F*ckin' sanity effects...

OMG, I am SO excited to watch this tonight. Gonna get the kid in bed, pour myself a stiff drink, and enjoy the excellence. Thanks, DD!

DK28

2013-03-10 12:15:11 am

General Kong - Bullets and Bananas

Amazing DD. I love how you surprised yourself.

Darkwing Duck

2014-01-22 04:54:46 pm

Highly Evolved

In case anyone wasn't aware, I improved the second quest run by 25 seconds.

http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/c/3582046

Lonnigan

Edit history:

Lonnigan: 2014-02-28 02:27:36 pm

2014-02-28 02:26:05 pm

Mustachioed Muscleman

LoZ 100% Glitchless route I made: http://pastebin.com/a2LQmdvg
I will be working on it and doing runs. I might work on any%.
I need to add info about potion shops and fairy fountains.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2014-02-28 02:45:24 pm

2014-02-28 02:42:37 pm

HELLO!

Whelp, here we go. I actually agree 100% with your definition of 100%. Smiley

I wouldn't require red potion since it's consumable, same as magic shield and the bait.

One thought: If you're not requiring all keys you might want to do level 8 early to get the magic key early, and not have to collect any keys after that.

Though what are you defining as 'glitchless'?

Darkwing Duck

2014-03-01 12:05:10 am

Highly Evolved

As per the definition of 100%, it's probably the one I did when I did it the one time.

As far as the route and glitchless, well, you play a game however you want. I would assume the difference in the glitchless route is no screen scrolling which pretty much means more walking. Also the route gets blue ring, white sword, arrows and candle before you enter a single dungeon? And you go 1-8 in order? I consider 100% dumb% because all it is is more walking and easier for items that you don't even use. Add in no screen scrolling which would kind of add boring to the dumb.

Again, run the game as you want to, but I don't see the allure to it at all. Swordless is a much better category if you don't want to run any%.

Lonnigan

Edit history:

Lonnigan: 2014-03-01 02:22:35 pm

2014-03-01 01:57:09 pm

Mustachioed Muscleman

Quote from presjpolk:

Though what are you defining as 'glitchless'?

I was actually going to ask you guys about glitches I should list. I don't know very many.
I will be working on this route, this is simply a base to work on. I will be looking into skeleton key early and not getting blue ring and stuff like that.
Thanks for the opinions, I understand that its not an alluring category, but I enjoy running it, and thought maybe someone else would to. Smiley

EDIT: I'd also like to mention, I'm completely new to speedrunning LoZ.