Batman: Arkham Asylum

2010-02-07 02:21:56 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

* honorableJay smacks his head

Wow, sometimes I'm really dense heh Smiley

I'll take that route, but right after the zipline I'm just gonna go right for the control room (ladder is right there). It doesn't matter if anyone else sees me, just gotta take that one guy out and I'm set. Should save me about 20ish seconds in that room.

Tonight I get to have fun. Since I haven't found a single map of Croc's lair anywhere, I'm gonna have to manually map it out. Hopefully if I'm lucky I can find some shortcuts. If I'm really lucky I can make a bee-line for the last pod and do them in reverse order so the exit chase doesn't take so damn long (knowing my luck though the game is scripted to not allow you to get them out of order). Another thing to hope for would be to hit some trigger to force the story to advance so I can skip getting all of the pods (or to skip them all).

Master ZED

2010-02-07 02:50:39 pm

Quote from honorableJay:

Wow, sometimes I'm really dense heh Smiley

I'll take that route, but right after the zipline I'm just gonna go right for the control room (ladder is right there). It doesn't matter if anyone else sees me, just gotta take that one guy out and I'm set. Should save me about 20ish seconds in that room.

You should watch the video again; I turn my head while in the vent to show why that's a bad idea. Optimally, by the time you're in the vent, the third guard will have just reached the ladder, and by the time you're up the shaft, he's only just gotten far away enough not to notice you if you waited. The control room guy will be near the ladder as well, hence why I could stomp him (this wasn't an optimal kill, I just enjoy doing that when the opportunity arises). Also, if someone sees you, it pretty much goes straight to the cutscene IIRC (at least, that's what always happens to me).

As for Killer Croc, you have to get the third spore so Croc will open the path to the second part of his lair. That spore is also guarded by a barrier that Croc has to break, which is governed by an event trigger. Maybe he'll pop up anyway, or maybe he can randomly appear back there, we'll just have to try and see. Given how this game works, my confidence is dismal on this idea.

Besides, given that meter, I'd be surprised if the game events cared more about which spore you got. The first and second, and fourth and fifth, can definitely be retrieved out of order just from the fact that there aren't any barricades to doing so that I know of. A sequence break might be worth it if getting the final spore before the fourth allowed you to skip that smash attack intro cutscene, but only on Easy, and I think it's iffy since Croc usually uses the attack not long after the final spore, and no cutscene may just make him pop up twice and slow things down. On Hard, the cutscene is unused since the attack is available to Croc from the start.

If you are going to map it out, make sure you zip everywhere possible to find out where the Line Launcher tripwires are. The areas where Croc pops up automatically while on the line are preset according to difficulty, and there are a lot more of them on Hard than Easy. In fact, I think my run was overcautious with the launcher, so it'd be nice to know where we can force Croc out and when we can make him appear off the beaten path.

[quote="honorableJay"]Wow, sometimes I'm really dense heh :)   I'll take that route, but right after the zipline I'm just gonna go right for the control room (ladder is right there). It doesn't matter if anyone else sees me, just gotta take that one guy out and I'm set. Should save me about 20ish seconds in that room. [/quote]You should watch the video again; I turn my head while in the vent to show why that's a bad idea.  Optimally, by the time you're in the vent, the third guard will have just reached the ladder, and by the time you're up the shaft, he's only just gotten far away enough not to notice you if you waited.  The control room guy will be near the ladder as well, hence why I could stomp him (this wasn't an optimal kill, I just enjoy doing that when the opportunity arises).  Also, if someone sees you, it pretty much goes straight to the cutscene IIRC (at least, that's what always happens to me).

As for Killer Croc, you have to get the third spore so Croc will open the path to the second part of his lair.  That spore is also guarded by a barrier that Croc has to break, which is governed by an event trigger.  Maybe he'll pop up anyway, or maybe he can randomly appear back there, we'll just have to try and see.  Given how this game works, my confidence is dismal on this idea.

Besides, given that meter, I'd be surprised if the game events cared more about which spore you got.  The first and second, and fourth and fifth, can definitely be retrieved out of order just from the fact that there aren't any barricades to doing so that I know of.  A sequence break might be worth it if getting the final spore before the fourth allowed you to skip that smash attack intro cutscene, but only on Easy, and I think it's iffy since Croc usually uses the attack not long after the final spore, and no cutscene may just make him pop up twice and slow things down.  On Hard, the cutscene is unused since the attack is available to Croc from the start.

If you are going to map it out, make sure you zip everywhere possible to find out where the Line Launcher tripwires are.  The areas where Croc pops up automatically while on the line are preset according to difficulty, and there are a lot more of them on Hard than Easy.  In fact, I think my run was overcautious with the launcher, so it'd be nice to know where we can force Croc out and when we can make him appear off the beaten path.

honorableJay

2010-02-07 10:29:59 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

Well, so much for mapping it out by hand, that's definitely not gonna work. Also, without any option of doing noclip, I'm gonna have to try and decompile the actual map to try and get any sense of where things are. I can play the level fine, but it's hard to memorize the whole thing since every path looks exactly the same (which is why my by-hand map was totally messed up by pod 3).

Optime

2010-02-08 01:30:23 am

March 16, 2010

What you have on youtube so far looks great. Keep it up! Smiley

Master ZED

2010-02-08 04:39:10 am

Quote from honorableJay:

Well, so much for mapping it out by hand, that's definitely not gonna work. Also, without any option of doing noclip, I'm gonna have to try and decompile the actual map to try and get any sense of where things are. I can play the level fine, but it's hard to memorize the whole thing since every path looks exactly the same (which is why my by-hand map was totally messed up by pod 3).

That won't be necessary. I used a map editing program for Final Fantasy 6 to map it out, as the board layout is tile-based:

Where you see Croc triggers next to spores off the map indicates which spores cause Croc to attack after you pick them up. This map does not cover Line Launcher interference (so no overhead pipes or LL-specific Croc triggers are shown).

honorableJay

2010-02-08 06:42:06 am

The Dork Knight himself.

You sir are a life saver Smiley

How did you wind up doing this without a base reference? Just walked through the thing and mapped at the same time?

Master ZED

2010-02-08 01:51:38 pm

Quote from honorableJay:

How did you wind up doing this without a base reference? Just walked through the thing and mapped at the same time?

Yip. When I saw your post, I knew doing it by hand wouldn't work for me either (my drawing/writing skills are garbage), but I could draw it on my laptop no problem because of how little 3D played into the maze and the set width of the platforms (hence why I said it was tile-based). I used the map editor to avoid c/p'ing in MSPaint, speeding the process up so I could do it all in an hour.

honorableJay

Edit history:

honorableJay: 2010-02-09 12:06:48 am

2010-02-08 10:39:17 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

Well, going by your map, it might be faster to get them in this order: 3, 5, 4, 2, 1 It'll take some aggressive line launcher work but it'll definitely be easier to exit this way. From what I noticed if you keep using the line launcher you don't run into the chase scenes where Croc smashes the planks. I can't guarantee it'll work on Hard, but on Easy it seems to work like a charm.

I'm gonna try the normal way and then out of order to see which method is faster.

***Edit***
Well, now I'm not so sure which way is faster. I went back to back and ran through first getting them in the proper order, then got them out of order (3, 4, 5, 2, 1) and had a diff of 10 seconds (6:26 vs 6:36). The out of order route was the faster one, however I made more mistakes when grabbing the spores in the proper order. I'm guessing with more aggressive line launcher usage and not getting lost it might actually be faster to simply grab them in order rather than trying to go out of sequence. What do you guys think?

Well, going by your map, it might be faster to get them in this order: 3, 5, 4, 2, 1  It'll take some aggressive line launcher work but it'll definitely be easier to exit this way. From what I noticed if you keep using the line launcher you don't run into the chase scenes where Croc smashes the planks. I can't guarantee it'll work on Hard, but on Easy it seems to work like a charm.

I'm gonna try the normal way and then out of order to see which method is faster.

***Edit***
Well, now I'm not so sure which way is faster. I went back to back and ran through first getting them in the proper order, then got them out of order (3, 4, 5, 2, 1) and had a diff of 10 seconds (6:26 vs 6:36). The out of order route was the faster one, however I made more mistakes when grabbing the spores in the proper order. I'm guessing with more aggressive line launcher usage and not getting lost it might actually be faster to simply grab them in order rather than trying to go out of sequence. [url=http://www.filefront.com/15538705/crocpods.mp4]What do you guys think?[/url]

honorableJay

Edit history:

honorableJay: 2010-02-16 03:04:03 pm

2010-02-13 01:03:56 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

Hooray!!! Replacement hd is in the mail, should be here in a few days. Once that's installed I'll finally be able to do some serious recording (gonna shoot for 1280x720).

***Edit***
New drive is in, Winxp didn't even notice the ninja clone maneuver. Recording at 1280x720 works like a charm. On a side note, I don't think we'll be seeing a hard mode run of this game for a long time. All of our tactics would have to be completely reworked (and the run would be almost 3 hours long since everything = instant death).

Master ZED

2010-02-21 05:54:01 am

Okay, I need an answer to this for my guide, though I'm pretty sure I know what a speed run will call for on the subject.

From what I can tell, if you skip fighting the goons in the Library in the Mansion, when you leave the Warden's Office, that group will return in the East Wing Corridor to take revenge for being ditched (one of them now waving a stun rod). Is this actually true, or is there some other reason the EWC group won't always show up? Also, at which point would fighting them be fastest assuming it is true, since technically they can't be skipped entirely? I'm thinking EWC, despite the rod, since you're not likely to have good positioning for grappling up in the Library after a fight there.

Quote from honorableJay:

On a side note, I don't think we'll be seeing a hard mode run of this game for a long time. All of our tactics would have to be completely reworked (and the run would be almost 3 hours long since everything = instant death).

Long time is "hardly" my theory on the matter. And besides, everything's instant death already save assault rifles and shotguns.

Here's what needs to be reworked for Hard AFAIK:

- Battle upgrades. Easy calls for Critical Strikes, Twin Batarang, Triple Batarang, and RCB, then after Cryptographics, RFD for the Cave Titan (well, maybe; each time I fight that battle, I find myself forgetting about the other Gel trap more and more 'cause I just don't feel the speed...). Hard would switch up Criticals for Combo Batarang and ground pounds as the weapons of choice, replacing RCB with Batarang Power. Fighting tactics would also call for more Cape Stuns due to the cyclical multi-target nature of the attack. Simply put, Batman doesn't have the speed to drag out long combos like on Easy and Normal (someone will hit him if people are bunched around him, and dancing around a group only works for so long), so normal battle tactics have to focus on instant kills. This creates another problem, namely less XP from battles. Not sure how that'll work out; maybe more variations could make up the difference without going out of the way for riddles?
- Scarecrow routes. What works on Easy sure as hell won't work on Hard. The roll through the weak wall explosion would still work I think, but I can't even get the damn roll itself to work more than 20% of the time. What's the timing on this?
- Certain predator rooms, namely the first and last ones in Botanical Gardens. On Easy, you can go berserk with the Batclaw for a quick end the first time around, which clearly won't work on Hard at all, and in the last one, you can use four Batarangs after the first thug is downed to take the rest out near the door on Easy. If Batarang Power isn't employed, that strategy on Hard would likely be death. Intensive Treatment Lobby 2 and Control Room I think would work the same way. I'm on a Hard run right now writing for my guide, so I'll see when I get there I suppose.
- Bane. Really don't know how that battle's gonna work in a single segment. Stand with him, and one punch eats 1/3 of Batman's health sans Armor Upgrades. You can throw jump kicks at him and run after every Batarang to help out until it's time to take a tube away, but that's about all the risk you could take. Three Batarang attacks are needed per round, and on the last one, he usually stalls the final charge until he can recover some health, which adds another Batarang to the queue. Anymore striking wouldn't even be that fast anyway given his defense.
- Titans. Same as Bane.
- Killer Croc. The problem is the number of Line Launcher Croc triggers as opposed to Easy, but not really anything else. The rework is that you can't whore out the launcher the same way.
- Ivy? Kinda unsure... I don't think her defense improves. I think it would just call for more dodging and counters. :\

So it wouldn't be *that* different in theory, but yeah, many battles and the nightmares require retooling. I don't think it would take as long as you think, though.

Oh, and you can't Line Launch across Arkham North while heading for Ivy. You can survive the snipers easily even with a few mistakes on Easy, but two shots is death on Hard, and can't be risked in a single segment. Segmented would still have to do this.

But, to other things. Challenge Mode, predator challenges to be exact. Should we pool our best challenges together for an individual level table? Thankfully the only two restricted DLC are combat-related (Crime Alley and Dem Bones), so the table won't be missing anything without the pre-order and Collector's Edition bonuses. The only one I'm willing to contribute is Record Breaker Extreme at the moment, mostly because that's my only SDA-worthy Challenge right now.

Okay, I need an answer to this for my guide, though I'm pretty sure I know what a speed run will call for on the subject.

From what I can tell, if you skip fighting the goons in the Library in the Mansion, when you leave the Warden's Office, that group will return in the East Wing Corridor to take revenge for being ditched (one of them now waving a stun rod).  Is this actually true, or is there some other reason the EWC group won't always show up?  Also, at which point would fighting them be fastest assuming it is true, since technically they can't be skipped entirely?  I'm thinking EWC, despite the rod, since you're not likely to have good positioning for grappling up in the Library after a fight there.

[quote="honorableJay"]On a side note, I don't think we'll be seeing a hard mode run of this game for a long time. All of our tactics would have to be completely reworked (and the run would be almost 3 hours long since everything = instant death).[/quote]Long time is "hardly" my theory on the matter.  And besides, everything's instant death already save assault rifles and shotguns.

Here's what needs to be reworked for Hard AFAIK:

- Battle upgrades.  Easy calls for Critical Strikes, Twin Batarang, Triple Batarang, and RCB, then after Cryptographics, RFD for the Cave Titan (well, maybe; each time I fight that battle, I find myself forgetting about the other Gel trap more and more 'cause I just don't feel the speed...).  Hard would switch up Criticals for Combo Batarang and ground pounds as the weapons of choice, replacing RCB with Batarang Power.  Fighting tactics would also call for more Cape Stuns due to the cyclical multi-target nature of the attack.  Simply put, Batman doesn't have the speed to drag out long combos like on Easy and Normal ([i]someone[/i] will hit him if people are bunched around him, and dancing around a group only works for so long), so normal battle tactics have to focus on instant kills.  This creates another problem, namely less XP from battles.  Not sure how that'll work out; maybe more variations could make up the difference without going out of the way for riddles?
- Scarecrow routes.  What works on Easy sure as hell won't work on Hard.  The roll through the weak wall explosion would still work I think, but I can't even get the damn roll itself to work more than 20% of the time.  What's the timing on this?
- Certain predator rooms, namely the first and last ones in Botanical Gardens.  On Easy, you can go berserk with the Batclaw for a quick end the first time around, which clearly won't work on Hard at all, and in the last one, you can use four Batarangs after the first thug is downed to take the rest out near the door on Easy.  If Batarang Power isn't employed, that strategy on Hard would likely be death.  Intensive Treatment Lobby 2 and Control Room I think would work the same way.  I'm on a Hard run right now writing for my guide, so I'll see when I get there I suppose.
- Bane.  Really don't know how that battle's gonna work in a single segment.  Stand with him, and one punch eats 1/3 of Batman's health sans Armor Upgrades.  You can throw jump kicks at him and run after every Batarang to help out until it's time to take a tube away, but that's about all the risk you could take.  Three Batarang attacks are needed per round, and on the last one, he usually stalls the final charge until he can recover some health, which adds another Batarang to the queue.  Anymore striking wouldn't even be that fast anyway given his defense.
- Titans.  Same as Bane.
- Killer Croc.  The problem is the number of Line Launcher Croc triggers as opposed to Easy, but not really anything else.  The rework is that you can't whore out the launcher the same way.
- Ivy?  Kinda unsure... I don't think her defense improves.  I think it would just call for more dodging and counters. :\

So it wouldn't be *that* different in theory, but yeah, many battles and the nightmares require retooling.  I don't think it would take as long as you think, though.

Oh, and you can't Line Launch across Arkham North while heading for Ivy.  You can survive the snipers easily even with a few mistakes on Easy, but two shots is death on Hard, and can't be risked in a single segment.  Segmented would still have to do this.

But, to other things.  Challenge Mode, predator challenges to be exact.  Should we pool our best challenges together for an individual level table?  Thankfully the only two restricted DLC are combat-related (Crime Alley and Dem Bones), so the table won't be missing anything without the pre-order and Collector's Edition bonuses.  The only one I'm willing to contribute is Record Breaker Extreme at the moment, mostly because that's my only SDA-worthy Challenge right now.

bloodisblue

2010-02-25 09:22:07 pm

Well in a single segment hard it would probally make sense to take some armor levels. The extra armor allows you to take a couple bullets (I think) + gives a free full heal when used which would be highly useful. But it probally isn't as useful as other needed upgrades.

+ I'm looking forward to both of these runs.

Master ZED

2010-02-28 07:11:28 pm

Huh. I tried a run using Combo Batarang instead of Critical Strikes on Easy and, including mistakes, got the same time as the run I submitted. o_O

But here's a few things that are making me think of sticking it in alongside Criticals, throwing out RCB:

- The damage it deals to Bane and Titans is actually significant; it makes striking Bane on the second round to prevent this brick throw particularly viable (Batarang, strike, strike, roll away, Batarang, Batarang after the first tube is torn off will prevent the brick throw), and it knocks down Titans that haven't fallen after three Rodeo Strikes. There is a problem with Rodeo Strikes though; they don't count as increasing the combo counter where the combo Batarang is concerned, so if you do Batarang, Rodeo Strikes, Batarang, the combo ends. Combo Batarangs also don't do damage to Bane or a Titan during a charge; it just does the usual dizzying, which is kind of illogical but not of any concern.

- A second combo Batarang in a "row" will still work. That's why the Bane combo can end in two 'rang attacks and work in spite of the combo breaking rule.

- RCB is used all of one time for an unknown time gain, which also prevents the acquisition of a trophy in the Warden's Office. Combo Batarangs can be used for things like the Harley gauntlet, giving you easy, long-lasting knockdowns, amplified in effect due to its use of the multi-Batarang. Titan Ivy and her guards can be attacked at the same time via this method. Whatever amount of time is lost vs. Zsasz will probably be made up for. IIRC, you'd have your fifth upgrade by then however, so maybe the power amplifier upgrade could come up seventh?

- Has no slowdown if used as a third hit. It can even be used against Titan Joker for a very small time gain thanks to this ability, though you risk missing with it up close, and is not worth it in single segment against him for that reason.

- Can be used in an emergency vs. predator thugs, though they can still dodge, and the combo will end instantly if the game predicts a miss.

Right now, if you made me choose between Batarang and Critical, and made every other upgrade the same as my current plan for Easy, I really can't tell which one is optimal. On Hard, there's no question due to the amount of enemy HP in play, and it's ability to safely and more quickly land fourth blows when necessary in the Titan battles is invaluable. I'm not entirely sure what to do here, but as I'll be going straight for Mega Man 10 tomorrow, if I'm gonna make a new run anytime soon, I just have to hope things work out tonight.

By the by, some other things...

1. I answered my own question about the Library and East Wing Corridor above. Skip the Library goons and they come back at EWC. EWC is the optimal battleground between the two rooms anyway due to the untrustworthy nature of the Grapnel Gun's aiming mechanism.

2. I need to do more rolling. I'm still not convinced it's overall faster than a straight run over long stretches, but for a short burst of speed to cross an event trigger or get to a door, there's hardly any reason to forgo it if the path's a long enough straight shot (so not to Experimental Chamber's door for example, but getting to Gordon's body at the beginning of the fear gas scenario in Medical is a perfect example of when to roll).

3. I need an eighth upgrade idea for Hard. The Line Launcher across Arkham North when getting to Titan Ivy is indeed workable if you hide in a menu during the loading period to avoid being sniped, and I'd like to make use of that time.

4. I've worked out an ideal path for Intensive Treatment Lobby's 1st visit, though how the sixth punk is handled is random since he won't come close after you attack the fifth thug (combo Batarang would help here, though it's not guaranteed). More importantly, I have a sorting order for all Riddler Challenges here:

- Harley's tape after the first wave
- Joker Teeth after the second wave
- Sharp's portrait from the bottom of the center staircase of the upper office, in the corner using zoom to scan
- The question mark in-between Riddler's remarks after the first riddle and the automatic subscreen entry (IOW, during the fade-out)

The mark is very easy to miss, and doesn't really effect anything if everything else goes well, so it's much more a buffer against a potential scanning mistake than a key part of the plan. It costs no time to retrieve anyway.

5. There should be a LOT more Line Launching than what I did in my run for Croc's Lair (I think, I still haven't reviewed it, and probably won't). However, if Croc's behind you on the path you're taking, running is generally faster due to a lack of straightaways.

6. I'm not entirely convinced anymore that it's faster to go through Arkham North after the Mansion. I think the time's about the same, but with less risk in the Abandoned Tunnel due to a lack of knives amongst the thugs. Speaking of the Mansion, on the way out, there's no point in taking the vent shaft back to Mansion Entrance Hall from Main Hall after all; it turns out the door between the two is open when the three armed thugs come in for their "sneak" attack.

7. Hard mode's not actually as hard as we think it is. In fact, if I were verifying, I'd probably reject any run that used Armor Upgrades as anything other than health potions. It's all in the Combo Batarang's power to control crowds after the introduction of the multi-Batarang; once you have that ability mastered, a lot of the difficulty seems to dissipate.

So yeah, I've been slacking on making a run, but not in my research. I'm just more confused now. When should the combo Batarang come in? I'm thinking, going by earliest important uses:

Criticals (immediate benefit of shortening all battles)
Twin Batarang (the armed thugs in the tunnel to Arkham North)
Combo Batarang (Bane)
Triple Batarang (predator and certain combat situations, such as the final battle)
Cryptographic upgrades

The only thing I see wrong with that order are the seconds wasted going through the Upgrade menu. Triple Batarangs have exactly one noteworthy use in Medical Facility, and that can easily be replaced (the three thugs on the way to X-Ray Room; a jump kick and combo Batarang attack are just as good). Any other ideas?

Huh.  I tried a run using Combo Batarang instead of Critical Strikes on Easy and, including mistakes, got the same time as the run I submitted. o_O

But here's a few things that are making me think of sticking it in alongside Criticals, throwing out RCB:

- The damage it deals to Bane and Titans is actually significant; it makes striking Bane on the second round to prevent this brick throw particularly viable (Batarang, strike, strike, roll away, Batarang, Batarang after the first tube is torn off will prevent the brick throw), and it knocks down Titans that haven't fallen after three Rodeo Strikes.  There is a problem with Rodeo Strikes though; they don't count as increasing the combo counter where the combo Batarang is concerned, so if you do Batarang, Rodeo Strikes, Batarang, the combo ends.  Combo Batarangs also don't do damage to Bane or a Titan during a charge; it just does the usual dizzying, which is kind of illogical but not of any concern.

- A second combo Batarang in a "row" will still work.  That's why the Bane combo can end in two 'rang attacks and work in spite of the combo breaking rule.

- RCB is used all of [i]one time[/i] for an unknown time gain, which also prevents the acquisition of a trophy in the Warden's Office.  Combo Batarangs can be used for things like the Harley gauntlet, giving you easy, long-lasting knockdowns, amplified in effect due to its use of the multi-Batarang.  Titan Ivy and her guards can be attacked at the same time via this method.  Whatever amount of time is lost vs. Zsasz will probably be made up for.  IIRC, you'd have your fifth upgrade by then however, so maybe the power amplifier upgrade could come up seventh?

- Has no slowdown if used as a third hit.  It can even be used against Titan Joker for a very small time gain thanks to this ability, though you risk missing with it up close, and is not worth it in single segment against him for that reason.

- Can be used in an emergency vs. predator thugs, though they can still dodge, and the combo will end instantly if the game predicts a miss.

Right now, if you made me choose between Batarang and Critical, and made every other upgrade the same as my current plan for Easy, I really can't tell which one is optimal.  On Hard, there's no question due to the amount of enemy HP in play, and it's ability to [i]safely and more quickly[/i] land fourth blows when necessary in the Titan battles is invaluable.  I'm not entirely sure what to do here, but as I'll be going straight for Mega Man 10 tomorrow, if I'm gonna make a new run anytime soon, I just have to hope things work out tonight.

By the by, some other things...

1. I answered my own question about the Library and East Wing Corridor above.  Skip the Library goons and they come back at EWC.  EWC is the optimal battleground between the two rooms anyway due to the untrustworthy nature of the Grapnel Gun's aiming mechanism.

2. I need to do more rolling.  I'm still not convinced it's overall faster than a straight run over long stretches, but for a short burst of speed to cross an event trigger or get to a door, there's hardly any reason to forgo it if the path's a long enough straight shot (so not to Experimental Chamber's door for example, but getting to Gordon's body at the beginning of the fear gas scenario in Medical is a perfect example of when to roll).

3. I need an eighth upgrade idea for Hard.  The Line Launcher across Arkham North when getting to Titan Ivy is indeed workable if you hide in a menu during the loading period to avoid being sniped, and I'd like to make use of that time.

4. I've worked out an ideal path for Intensive Treatment Lobby's 1st visit, though how the sixth punk is handled is random since he won't come close after you attack the fifth thug (combo Batarang would help here, though it's not guaranteed).  More importantly, I have a sorting order for all Riddler Challenges here:

- Harley's tape after the first wave
- Joker Teeth after the second wave
- Sharp's portrait from the bottom of the center staircase of the upper office, in the corner using zoom to scan
- The question mark in-between Riddler's remarks after the first riddle and the automatic subscreen entry (IOW, during the fade-out)

The mark is very easy to miss, and doesn't really effect anything if everything else goes well, so it's much more a buffer against a potential scanning mistake than a key part of the plan.  It costs no time to retrieve anyway.

5. There should be a LOT more Line Launching than what I did in my run for Croc's Lair (I think, I still haven't reviewed it, and probably won't).  However, if Croc's behind you on the path you're taking, running is generally faster due to a lack of straightaways.

6. I'm not entirely convinced anymore that it's faster to go through Arkham North after the Mansion.  I think the time's about the same, but with less risk in the Abandoned Tunnel due to a lack of knives amongst the thugs.  Speaking of the Mansion, on the way out, there's no point in taking the vent shaft back to Mansion Entrance Hall from Main Hall after all; it turns out the door between the two is open when the three armed thugs come in for their "sneak" attack.

7. Hard mode's not actually as hard as we think it is.  In fact, if I were verifying, I'd probably reject any run that used Armor Upgrades as anything other than health potions.  It's all in the Combo Batarang's power to control crowds after the introduction of the multi-Batarang; once you have that ability mastered, a lot of the difficulty seems to dissipate.

So yeah, I've been slacking on making a run, but not in my research.  I'm just more confused now.  When should the combo Batarang come in?  I'm thinking, going by earliest important uses:

Criticals (immediate benefit of shortening all battles)
Twin Batarang (the armed thugs in the tunnel to Arkham North)
Combo Batarang (Bane)
Triple Batarang (predator and certain combat situations, such as the final battle)
Cryptographic upgrades

The only thing I see wrong with that order are the seconds wasted going through the Upgrade menu.  Triple Batarangs have exactly one noteworthy use in Medical Facility, and that can easily be replaced (the three thugs on the way to X-Ray Room; a jump kick and combo Batarang attack are just as good).  Any other ideas?

Master ZED

Edit history:

Master ZED: 2010-03-30 06:08:45 pm

2010-03-30 05:51:44 pm

Finally got this thing on one disc (2:01:47; again, this includes the beginning prior to Holding Cells)... still several small errors, but no big time ones like the 2:07. Things that I can think of that are definitely better:

- Several fights; there are still errors, but the only truly costly one that can't be attributed to bad luck in some way was ~~at the end of the Harley battle (funny yet sad)~~
EDIT: Oops! That error was from another attempt; the error in the Harley fight this time around had the battle end when the middle floor lit up for the second time, which was probably due to a quick Batclaw targeting error... can't remember if it can go faster than that reliably or not, though, so maybe it wasn't botched?
- Intensive Treatment Lobby (IIRC, my strategy wasn't finalized in the 2:07, but it is now; went off nearly without a hitch this time! I also snagged the ? mark riddle since I had nothing else to do after the Sharp portrait was scanned)
- Grabbing the tape in Sanatorium (costs all of a second at most, but further ensures against a lack of XP for the Sequencer upgrades later if fights go bad in terms of combo hit counts)
- Rescuing Gordon
- Bane (in method: in luck, he screwed me on the final life bar)
- Deliberate damage taken in Bane/Titan fights to forgo repositioning
- Scarecrow 2 (no hesitation this time; went as well as I could realistically hope for)
- East Wing Corridor (Batclaw is used to skip the henchman threat cutscene; probably only saved like a second due to preparations, though)
- Gathered Combo Batarang as 7th upgrade post-Harley to save a few seconds on loading time getting back into Main Cell Block
- Aviary (finishing the thugs off went better through unexpected luck)
- Intensive Treatment Lobby 2 (used Sequencer distance suggestion; no failures since implementation!)
- Killer Croc (more Line Launcher spammage; manipulation of Croc's spawning used)
- Cave Titan battle (I think this went better, though it's not perfect by any means)
- Flooded Corridor pre-Titan Ivy (cutscene is skipped by attacking the guards from a distance; saved maybe a second)
- Titan Ivy (limited interaction and dodging; no combos this time, and tried to place counters between Batarangs to minimize time lost)
- Titan Joker (aside from a couple missed Batclaws because Joker was slow to turn around, it went as good as I could have hoped)

As for some of the errors...

- Second-to-last fight could have gone better. The beginning of the battle was a new method related to how I start Bane, but the bastard Titans just stood around looking stupid! o_O

- A few misplaced rolls. Only about a third were my fault; I did all I could to avoid them.

- Lack of jump kicks at key spots. I can't explain most of them; I'm not doing anything differently than usual. Maybe I was just too early? (that's been happening in combos a lot lately) :\

- Some bad luck with loading.

- An odd skip in Medical Facility when running for Aaron Cash's room. It looks like the video freezes for a second, but it's actually the game. Just bad luck.

- In said room, missed a set of Joker Teeth with the Twin Batarang. Cost me nothing, though; I threw it in just because I could.

- Going back to Sanatorium, missed the Joker Teeth post-knife thug. Stupid pseudo-Combo Batarang. Angry

- Screwed up Arkham Records Room; one of the Gel victims got up too quickly. However, his gunfire caused the straggler to run down there when I usually have to hunt him down, so the time loss isn't actually as great as it looks.

- Botanical Glasshouse 1. It isn't all that bad, really... but the last thug weas when you consider that I had the Combo Batarang and it would've been perfect to use on him had I remembered it. No Mr. On-Screen Prompt, my habit of ignoring you makes you useless for those little necessary reminders. :\

- Botanical Glasshouse 2. I had a new strategy using the Multi- and RC Batarangs on the four groundlings to set up a ground pound combo, but I missed a thug on both attacks (the Multi- looked fine, I swear!) and had to improvise. Lost a few seconds for it; probably the worst mistake in the run next to the end of the Harley fight.

- The times I do take hits usually come after some other error in battle, namely double strikes; they were both problematic and blessings in more fights than I would've expected in any one run. I don't know how to deliberately strike multiple thugs in one hit, and I can't see when the setup exists in the heat of battle; worse yet, I buffer my attacks constantly for speed (I have to to avoid getting hit more often), which makes double hits curses when they come with no one but the two victims in the direction Bats is facing. However, there's a sweet two-thug sweep kick going toward X-Ray Room that made my getting spotted by the thugs less costly than it should've been.

- I could likely have done with using an upgrade or two in the Titan Ivy fight for healing instead of dodging so many pods, but I'm unsure of this. My getting Combo Batarang in Penitentiary and using the subscreen to dodge sniper fire going back to the Greenhouse would've set this up perfectly had I thought of it at the time.

Here's the things I left out:

- The pipe balancing act in Secure Transit to skip shimmying. I can't seem to do it anymore, so I used some alternate placement for firing the Grapnel Gun after the shimmy to snag an extra second instead (may have lost it from getting hung on a wall while going up though)

- Scarecrow 1 tricks after the initial sprint. This includes not only the rolling through the exploding wall trick (can't do it either), but a jump slightly right to avoid shimmying. The reason for this is pretty simple; I lose a lot more time if that jump goes bad than I can save, and it goes bad a lot. Some tricks just aren't worth it in single segment, especially when restarts make you want to bite your fingers off for how damn long they take. Besides, I tried to make the trip that jump allows for anyway, and when I climbed up, I suddenly realized Scarecrow was faster than I thought and had to duck back under the wall to save my ass. I dunno if that was really a mistake; I hope it wasn't just me getting spooked. O_O

- Zipping in the Arkham North/West tunnel when going west. The people who are saying this is faster are forgetting the halted (horizontal) movement both beginning AND ending any given Grapnel Gun usage. However, when going to North, the grapnel is used, since the zip on that trip covers a greater, worthwhile distance.

- Remote Frequency Detonator. Faster just to use the Gel only on the Titan itself in the end of Caves fight, and Critical everyone else.

Getting rid of all the errors, adding in a couple of those forgone tricks, and some additional luck will definitely get the time under two hours. Excluding the forgone tricks, that luck's gonna have to be pretty good.

Whatever the case may be, I saved over five minutes from that other POS run, so I guess I'll be submitting this one... I don't trust my luck to give me a significantly better time right now. >_>

Finally got this thing on one disc (2:01:47; again, this includes the beginning prior to Holding Cells)... still several small errors, but no big time ones like the 2:07.  Things that I can think of that are definitely better:

- Several fights; there are still errors, but the only truly costly one that can't be attributed to bad luck in some way was [s]at the end of the Harley battle (funny yet sad)[/s]
[color=red]EDIT: Oops!  That error was from another attempt; the error in the Harley fight this time around had the battle end when the middle floor lit up for the second time, which was probably due to a quick Batclaw targeting error... can't remember if it can go faster than that reliably or not, though, so maybe it wasn't botched?[/color]
- Intensive Treatment Lobby (IIRC, my strategy wasn't finalized in the 2:07, but it is now; went off nearly without a hitch this time!  I also snagged the ? mark riddle since I had nothing else to do after the Sharp portrait was scanned)
- Grabbing the tape in Sanatorium (costs all of a second at most, but further ensures against a lack of XP for the Sequencer upgrades later if fights go bad in terms of combo hit counts)
- Rescuing Gordon
- Bane (in method: in luck, he screwed me on the final life bar)
- Deliberate damage taken in Bane/Titan fights to forgo repositioning
- Scarecrow 2 (no hesitation this time; went as well as I could realistically hope for)
- East Wing Corridor (Batclaw is used to skip the henchman threat cutscene; probably only saved like a second due to preparations, though)
- Gathered Combo Batarang as 7th upgrade post-Harley to save a few seconds on loading time getting back into Main Cell Block
- Aviary (finishing the thugs off went better through unexpected luck)
- Intensive Treatment Lobby 2 (used Sequencer distance suggestion; no failures since implementation!)
- Killer Croc (more Line Launcher spammage; manipulation of Croc's spawning used)
- Cave Titan battle (I [b]think[/b] this went better, though it's not perfect by any means)
- Flooded Corridor pre-Titan Ivy (cutscene is skipped by attacking the guards from a distance; saved maybe a second)
- Titan Ivy (limited interaction and dodging; no combos this time, and tried to place counters between Batarangs to minimize time lost)
- Titan Joker (aside from a couple missed Batclaws because Joker was slow to turn around, it went as good as I could have hoped)

As for some of the errors...

- Second-to-last fight could have gone better.  The beginning of the battle was a new method related to how I start Bane, but the bastard Titans just stood around looking stupid! o_O

- A few misplaced rolls.  Only about a third were my fault; I did all I could to avoid them.

- Lack of jump kicks at key spots.  I can't explain most of them; I'm not doing anything differently than usual.  Maybe I was just too early? (that's been happening in combos a lot lately) :\

- Some bad luck with loading.

- An odd skip in Medical Facility when running for Aaron Cash's room.  It looks like the video freezes for a second, but it's actually the game.  Just bad luck.

- In said room, missed a set of Joker Teeth with the Twin Batarang.  Cost me nothing, though; I threw it in just because I could.

- Going back to Sanatorium, missed the Joker Teeth post-knife thug.  Stupid pseudo-Combo Batarang. >:(

- Screwed up Arkham Records Room; one of the Gel victims got up too quickly.  However, his gunfire caused the straggler to run down there when I usually have to hunt him down, so the time loss isn't actually as great as it looks.

- Botanical Glasshouse 1.  It isn't all that bad, really... but the last thug weas when you consider that I had the Combo Batarang and it would've been perfect to use on him [i]had I remembered it[/i].  No Mr. On-Screen Prompt, my habit of ignoring you makes you useless for those little necessary reminders. :\

- Botanical Glasshouse 2.  I had a new strategy using the Multi- and RC Batarangs on the four groundlings to set up a ground pound combo, but I missed a thug on [i]both[/i] attacks (the Multi- looked fine, I swear!) and had to improvise.  Lost a few seconds for it; probably the worst mistake in the run next to the end of the Harley fight.

- The times I do take hits usually come after some other error in battle, namely double strikes; they were both problematic and blessings in more fights than I would've expected in any one run.  I don't know how to deliberately strike multiple thugs in one hit, and I can't see when the setup exists in the heat of battle; worse yet, I buffer my attacks constantly for speed (I have to to avoid getting hit more often), which makes double hits curses when they come with no one but the two victims in the direction Bats is facing.  However, there's a sweet two-thug sweep kick going toward X-Ray Room that made my getting spotted by the thugs less costly than it should've been.

- I could likely have done with using an upgrade or two in the Titan Ivy fight for healing instead of dodging so many pods, but I'm unsure of this.  My getting Combo Batarang in Penitentiary and using the subscreen to dodge sniper fire going back to the Greenhouse would've set this up perfectly had I thought of it at the time.

Here's the things I left out:

- The pipe balancing act in Secure Transit to skip shimmying.  I can't seem to do it anymore, so I used some alternate placement for firing the Grapnel Gun after the shimmy to snag an extra second instead (may have lost it from getting hung on a wall while going up though)

- Scarecrow 1 tricks after the initial sprint.  This includes not only the rolling through the exploding wall trick (can't do it either), but a jump slightly right to avoid shimmying.  The reason for this is pretty simple; I lose a lot more time if that jump goes bad than I can save, and it goes bad a [b]lot[/b].  Some tricks just aren't worth it in single segment, especially when restarts make you want to bite your fingers off for how damn long they take.  Besides, I tried to make the trip that jump allows for anyway, and when I climbed up, I suddenly realized Scarecrow was faster than I thought and had to duck back under the wall to save my ass.  I dunno if that was really a mistake; I hope it wasn't just me getting spooked. O_O

- Zipping in the Arkham North/West tunnel when going west.  The people who are saying this is faster are forgetting the halted (horizontal) movement both beginning AND ending any given Grapnel Gun usage.  However, when going to North, the grapnel is used, since the zip on that trip covers a greater, worthwhile distance.

- Remote Frequency Detonator.  Faster just to use the Gel only on the Titan itself in the end of Caves fight, and Critical everyone else.

Getting rid of all the errors, adding in a couple of those forgone tricks, and some additional luck will definitely get the time under two hours.  Excluding the forgone tricks, that luck's gonna have to be pretty good.

Whatever the case may be, I saved over five minutes from that other POS run, so I guess I'll be submitting this one... I don't trust my luck to give me a significantly better time right now. >_>

honorableJay

2010-10-31 10:59:09 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

Well, I've finally started working on this again and have made some nice progress on Nightmare 1 (see here for details). I decided to start my test run over again, and so far after about half a day's work I'm finishing up the Bane fight. I'll update more as I get the newer segments finished.

honorableJay

Edit history:

honorableJay: 2010-11-04 06:06:18 pm

honorableJay: 2010-11-04 06:27:51 am

2010-11-03 10:59:03 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

Some more info:

Tried using the proximity gel det upgrade, but it costs way more time than it's worth (in terms of experience and lack of explosion control). I was hoping it would help during the cave Titan fight, but it didn't work out as I expected. It worked wonders when the doors were initially opened (stunned the Titan and the goons as they came out of the elevators) but it didn't help me pound the Titan in one spot (needed to force him into the electro-doors). I'm gonna try using the multi-frequency det and see how well that works. Maybe if I can get the gel close enough but still separated I can just tank the Titan as soon as he comes out.

Rather than taking the goons out in the hall after rescuing Dr. Young from Zsasz, I'm gonna try it in the library. The wider space lets me take them out without getting bunched up.

I'm also going to blaze through without getting a ton of extra Riddler trophies/Joker teeth and see if I'm starving for upgrades (technically all I need is the Range Amp by the time I reach Harley, Power Amp is just a bonus). The only ones I'm going to get are the ones that I can scan either on the way or while I'm waiting for something to happen (cutscene to begin/end, door to open, etc).

The Botanical Gardens fight (after I skip meeting Ivy) is still a pain. I can take out the first thug easy enough, but I can never get to the last 4 in time to ground pound them all (most of the time I can barely get one). It might be better to just make some noise and get em to chase after me so I can knock em out 1 at a time (rather than trying to take 1 out while the others shoot at me).

Taking on Croc's lair is pretty predictable. Not counting the scripted encounters, all of the spots he jumps out are the same so long as I move the same way every time. I've chopped the time it takes in that area down by almost 30 seconds from my last test with less hesitation and a few really nice corner cuts (which look hilarious when I screw them up).

Some more info:

Tried using the proximity gel det upgrade, but it costs way more time than it's worth (in terms of experience and lack of explosion control). I was hoping it would help during the cave Titan fight, but it didn't work out as I expected. It worked wonders when the doors were initially opened (stunned the Titan and the goons as they came out of the elevators) but it didn't help me pound the Titan in one spot (needed to force him into the electro-doors). I'm gonna try using the multi-frequency det and see how well that works. Maybe if I can get the gel close enough but still separated I can just tank the Titan as soon as he comes out.

Rather than taking the goons out in the hall after rescuing Dr. Young from Zsasz, I'm gonna try it in the library. The wider space lets me take them out without getting bunched up.

I'm also going to blaze through without getting a ton of extra Riddler trophies/Joker teeth and see if I'm starving for upgrades (technically all I need is the Range Amp by the time I reach Harley, Power Amp is just a bonus). The only ones I'm going to get are the ones that I can scan either on the way or while I'm waiting for something to happen (cutscene to begin/end, door to open, etc).

The Botanical Gardens fight (after I skip meeting Ivy) is still a pain. I can take out the first thug easy enough, but I can never get to the last 4 in time to ground pound them all (most of the time I can barely get one). It might be better to just make some noise and get em to chase after me so I can knock em out 1 at a time (rather than trying to take 1 out while the others shoot at me).

Taking on Croc's lair is pretty predictable. Not counting the scripted encounters, all of the spots he jumps out are the same so long as I move the same way every time. I've chopped the time it takes in that area down by almost 30 seconds from my last test with less hesitation and a few really nice corner cuts (which look hilarious when I screw them up).

honorableJay

Edit history:

honorableJay: 2010-11-05 10:30:27 pm

2010-11-05 10:26:49 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

I finished my test run and uploaded a highlight reel here. If anyone wants it, I can also upload the entire run too. If I had to take a stab in the dark as for time, I'm just under the 2 hour mark. Then again most of this is not optimized at all. The only areas I really tried to get really good segments out of were the nightmare sequences and croc's lair. Some of the added time was from using a different upgrade path and a few different tactics (some worked well, others didn't).

Comments on the highlight reel:

Some of the scenes don't switch very smoothly because I grabbed them all directly from the encode directly (just cut out the sections I didn't want). Apparently Avidemux doesn't look for the nearest reference frame when making cuts.

The Sanitorium fight could've gone faster. This method is guaranteed to work every time, however due to the position of the guard on the upper walkway I have to wait a few seconds before setting off the gel. If I don't, I'll waste more time just trying to drop down on the guard. Overall though this method is slightly slower than Zed's strat. Getting the Riddler scan of the destroyed cell and zipping back up without wasting time was a nice bonus.

Nightmare 1 only had 2 small goofs. The first one was the jump to the exploding wall platform: the jump you get 95% of the time has Batman grab the ledge and pull himself up. Every so often though he'll stand on air and do a later jump which makes him land on the platform itself. I haven't fully figured out how to get him to do that jump though, it appears to have something to do with which leg is forward right before the jump (in this sequence it was the left leg). I'll have to try pausing right before jumping to see if I can force the longer jump. The second goof is a bit obvious but still cost me almost a second.

Forcing the dialogue at the beginning of the Main Sewer Junction room (on the first trip) doesn't appear to save any time since you can't skip the cutscene until you skip the dialogue. If it does save time though it's probably not worth it.

Getting into the Mansion in Arkham East this way seems faster, but since I have to take out the first guard before going after the other two overall I only gain 1 second.

This method for rescuing Cash takes 36 seconds compared to the 56 in Zed's run. However I can't guarantee how reliable it will be for the future.

Getting the Proximity upgrade before Nightmare 2 cost way more time than it's worth. I had planned on using it for the Harley fight, but forgot to take into account the other areas where it's better to NOT have the upgrade. I overall lost time due to needing more experience to get the sequencer upgrades and during the Nightmare 2/3 fights. I still plan on getting both gel upgrades, but instead I'll get them before the Cave Titan fight (where I plan on using them). By the time I get there I'll have free upgrades to burn.

Right before the first fight in Botanical Gardens, if done early enough, the multi-batarangs will knock both guards into the electric shield nearly every time. As for the Gardens fight, that is the quickest strat I can find that has a high success rate. That attempt took 37 seconds compared to 41 for Zed (but that doesn't factor in the luck dept.). Regardless of the times, it seems that room goes quicker with a direct charge of the mid level and constant use of the batclaw/ground pound.

The Aviary shows just how stupid the enemies are on Easy.

Apparently Batman was hopping for joy right before zipping into Intensive Treatment.

Since I can't use the gel for the final sequence in Nightmare 3 (it'll go off too soon) I'm forced to keep the combo going for as long as possible. While it appears I do this quicker than Zed, I have more to fight. Overall I'm faster by 4 seconds, but this can be attributed merely to segmentation rather than execution. This fight is all about the initial gel traps and using Combo Criticals to take everyone out quickly.

Croc's lair is even more interesting. Putting my test run next to his and getting them sync'd shows that "more aggressive line launching" doesn't save a whole lot of time in the beginning. Up until the 4th pod both of us are neck and neck. In fact the both of us are about as aggressive with the line launching as you can be due to the way the walls are setup (some corners you can cut, some you can't, sometimes pipes along the ceiling will block your path, etc). There's only 1 line launch I use that he doesn't, which only saves me about 5-6 seconds (and is totally negated by a Croc encounter). I did find that Croc's patterns getting to the pods is very predictable, just stick to the same path and he should show up at the exact same times (every once in a while you'll get something different, usually when you step a few feet outside of your normal path). Getting out of there is the trickier part. There are a lot more Croc triggers, and those will of course cause you to spawn more random encounters since you won't be able to execute exactly the same every time. This area is simply knowing the path and getting some good luck.

The second passing through Main Sewer Junction (right before shutting down the water pumps) is pretty much dead even until I hit 3 different line launches. The first one goes over to the middle platform faster. The next line launch is simply earlier than Zed's. The last one positions me right under the breakable wall. Overall it's about 15 seconds faster (give or take a little bit depending on execution).

The Cave Titan fight is another neck and neck segment. I take care of the fight 10 seconds faster, but again luck was the deciding factor. Even though we used slightly different strats (he used multi-frequency only, I used multi-frequency and proxy det), both of us stunned the Titan at the exact same times every time. The elevator doors here are tied to the Titan's status. So everytime you get him stunned and kneeling, the elevators are set to open. This fight is about crowd control and stunning the Titan ASAP.

Segmenting doesn't really seem to help the Ivy fight either. I finish almost 10 seconds faster, but that was from bad luck. Rather than fight the guards, I chose to try and avoid them and use the batclaw to get em out of my way. During the first wave I lose some time, but due to Zed getting bunched up in the second wave I'm able to catch up and just barely edge him out. If we could figure out how to get Ivy to go into her Hide-n-Seek mode one more time this fight just might go down a lot faster (maybe it's tied to taking out all of the guards).

The twin Titan fight before Joker shows just how badly things can go wrong. Zed may have had a slower start, but he tanked the two Titans better and finished 30 seconds ahead of me. I wasn't able to keep them together the whole time and didn't think he leave the mortally wounded one alive to take down the other. To make things worse, the last Titan didn't feel like cooperating.

And finally, the Joker fight. Better crowd control (along with taking out 2 guys before every round) allows Zed to beat me by 20 seconds. Hell, I was so slow that by the time he was knocking off Joker's second life bar, I was JUST starting to launch the batclaw.

I finished my test run and uploaded a highlight reel [url=http://www.filefront.com/17481197/baa-testrun-clips.mp4/]here[/url]. If anyone wants it, I can also upload the entire run too. If I had to take a stab in the dark as for time, I'm just under the 2 hour mark. Then again most of this is not optimized at all. The only areas I really tried to get really good segments out of were the nightmare sequences and croc's lair. Some of the added time was from using a different upgrade path and a few different tactics (some worked well, others didn't).

Comments on the highlight reel:

Some of the scenes don't switch very smoothly because I grabbed them all directly from the encode directly (just cut out the sections I didn't want). Apparently Avidemux doesn't look for the nearest reference frame when making cuts.

The Sanitorium fight could've gone faster. This method is guaranteed to work every time, however due to the position of the guard on the upper walkway I have to wait a few seconds before setting off the gel. If I don't, I'll waste more time just trying to drop down on the guard. Overall though this method is slightly slower than Zed's strat. Getting the Riddler scan of the destroyed cell and zipping back up without wasting time was a nice bonus.

Nightmare 1 only had 2 small goofs. The first one was the jump to the exploding wall platform: the jump you get 95% of the time has Batman grab the ledge and pull himself up. Every so often though he'll stand on air and do a later jump which makes him land on the platform itself. I haven't fully figured out how to get him to do that jump though, it appears to have something to do with which leg is forward right before the jump (in this sequence it was the left leg). I'll have to try pausing right before jumping to see if I can force the longer jump. The second goof is a bit obvious but still cost me almost a second.

Forcing the dialogue at the beginning of the Main Sewer Junction room (on the first trip) doesn't appear to save any time since you can't skip the cutscene until you skip the dialogue. If it does save time though it's probably not worth it.

Getting into the Mansion in Arkham East this way seems faster, but since I have to take out the first guard before going after the other two overall I only gain 1 second.

This method for rescuing Cash takes 36 seconds compared to the 56 in Zed's run. However I can't guarantee how reliable it will be for the future.

Getting the Proximity upgrade before Nightmare 2 cost way more time than it's worth. I had planned on using it for the Harley fight, but forgot to take into account the other areas where it's better to NOT have the upgrade. I overall lost time due to needing more experience to get the sequencer upgrades and during the Nightmare 2/3 fights. I still plan on getting both gel upgrades, but instead I'll get them before the Cave Titan fight (where I plan on using them). By the time I get there I'll have free upgrades to burn.

Right before the first fight in Botanical Gardens, if done early enough, the multi-batarangs will knock both guards into the electric shield nearly every time. As for the Gardens fight, that is the quickest strat I can find that has a high success rate. That attempt took 37 seconds compared to 41 for Zed (but that doesn't factor in the luck dept.). Regardless of the times, it seems that room goes quicker with a direct charge of the mid level and constant use of the batclaw/ground pound.

The Aviary shows just how stupid the enemies are on Easy.

Apparently Batman was hopping for joy right before zipping into Intensive Treatment.

Since I can't use the gel for the final sequence in Nightmare 3 (it'll go off too soon) I'm forced to keep the combo going for as long as possible. While it appears I do this quicker than Zed, I have more to fight. Overall I'm faster by 4 seconds, but this can be attributed merely to segmentation rather than execution. This fight is all about the initial gel traps and using Combo Criticals to take everyone out quickly.

Croc's lair is even more interesting. Putting my test run next to his and getting them sync'd shows that "more aggressive line launching" doesn't save a whole lot of time in the beginning. Up until the 4th pod both of us are neck and neck. In fact the both of us are about as aggressive with the line launching as you can be due to the way the walls are setup (some corners you can cut, some you can't, sometimes pipes along the ceiling will block your path, etc). There's only 1 line launch I use that he doesn't, which only saves me about 5-6 seconds (and is totally negated by a Croc encounter). I did find that Croc's patterns getting to the pods is very predictable, just stick to the same path and he should show up at the exact same times (every once in a while you'll get something different, usually when you step a few feet outside of your normal path). Getting out of there is the trickier part. There are a lot more Croc triggers, and those will of course cause you to spawn more random encounters since you won't be able to execute exactly the same every time. This area is simply knowing the path and getting some good luck.

The second passing through Main Sewer Junction (right before shutting down the water pumps) is pretty much dead even until I hit 3 different line launches. The first one goes over to the middle platform faster. The next line launch is simply earlier than Zed's. The last one positions me right under the breakable wall. Overall it's about 15 seconds faster (give or take a little bit depending on execution).

The Cave Titan fight is another neck and neck segment. I take care of the fight 10 seconds faster, but again luck was the deciding factor. Even though we used slightly different strats (he used multi-frequency only, I used multi-frequency and proxy det), both of us stunned the Titan at the exact same times every time. The elevator doors here are tied to the Titan's status. So everytime you get him stunned and kneeling, the elevators are set to open. This fight is about crowd control and stunning the Titan ASAP.

Segmenting doesn't really seem to help the Ivy fight either. I finish almost 10 seconds faster, but that was from bad luck. Rather than fight the guards, I chose to try and avoid them and use the batclaw to get em out of my way. During the first wave I lose some time, but due to Zed getting bunched up in the second wave I'm able to catch up and just barely edge him out. If we could figure out how to get Ivy to go into her Hide-n-Seek mode one more time this fight just might go down a lot faster (maybe it's tied to taking out all of the guards).

The twin Titan fight before Joker shows just how badly things can go wrong. Zed may have had a slower start, but he tanked the two Titans better and finished 30 seconds ahead of me. I wasn't able to keep them together the whole time and didn't think he leave the mortally wounded one alive to take down the other. To make things worse, the last Titan didn't feel like cooperating.

And finally, the Joker fight. Better crowd control (along with taking out 2 guys before every round) allows Zed to beat me by 20 seconds. Hell, I was so slow that by the time he was knocking off Joker's second life bar, I was JUST starting to launch the batclaw.

Master ZED

2010-11-06 01:56:34 am

Clip-by-clip (I forget what I did in my run, so I'll just compare everything to what I remember now):

1. I usually use a ledge takedown on the second thug in ITL, provoking the third to come up the ladder so I can KO him with a batarang that sends him back to the ground. This way I don't have to go all the way to him (he covers some distance) and I don't have to mess with a ground pound.

In fact, that's one thing I don't like about these clips; too many ground pounds. Some of them are necessary, but then there're a few that have got to be cut.

2. The cell's nice. I thought about using the Riddler tape instead because my strats never put me on the other side of the room. :\

3. No improvements come to mind.

4. O_O Damn, Easy mode thugs are blinder than I thought! I gave them way too much credit.

5. You didn't clear that jump in MSJ to the water stream, but I think that's the lack of optimization you're talking about.

6. It's hard for me to believe this Arkham East method beats getting on the guard tower roof, multirang'ing the mansion thugs and gliding the whole way. The rolls alone are rather unsightly in comparison. Also, you do not need to crawl to the tower guard for a rang/GP attack; just jump kick the SOB. You've got enough room to make it work.

7. O_O ...*brain explodes*

No critique from me on the record room.

8. I'm surprised the shimmying around the brick column in Scarecrow 2 didn't get you killed. I know it's the concentrated beams, not the light in general, that kill Bats, but I thought they'd hit him there?

When you finish the nightmare, hold the camera in one direction and you should be able to turn it immediately when you can see again. The clip doesn't tell me whether you remember that or not.

9. Fully agreed with the Mansion > Penitentiary route. I was worried about the sniper during my run, but he's not a real threat on any difficulty.

10. What's with the crawling everywhere in the greenhouse? Especially when they already know you're there. Bad habit, maybe? :\

11. XD Fucking. Blind. And deaf too; someone should've heard that run, and indeed I've lost there for no discernible reason. Still, this run is set to make a complete mockery of mine in execution... time-wise, I hope you're selling yourself short with that just under 2 hours business.

12. Eh. One of those things I couldn't do due to the nature of my run. :\

13. You can nail the first guy with a batarang the moment you regain control after the door shuts, then just run up and ground pound. The plant life doesn't block anything. As for the four groundlings, I curse my stubbornness; using that particular gargoyle is so obvious after the fact. Hopefully you can use some luck manipulation to keep this revisit from becoming the clusterfuck seen in the clip show. Even the finish was botched, probably because all the gunfire messed you up.

Well that, or it could be that you're used to the challenge modes. Ground Pounds are excellent combat challenge finishers, but not really optimal anywhere else.

14. Meh. I dunno if it's faster, but it's not a big deal.

15. I'd regret doing the pervert Joker bit myself, but Lecher Mode is priceless if you don't remember the third nightmare too well. Glad to see it's gonna be a running gag in all future runs. Tongue

16. Like the SC3 run, notsomuch the fight. The proximity detonator really bit you here.

17. Croc's Lair stuff:

- The first platform makes no noise, and you need more than two beeps to trigger Croc's insta-kill. A better start is in order.

- Not gonna comment on bad luck.

- One of the advantages of Hard over Easy and Normal is that there's no forced cutscene at the third spore. It's the only one I remember, actually.

- The second line launch after the third spore could've had a more aggressive angle to it.

- Well okay, I do need to comment on some luck at the fifth spore. The broken planks prevented Croc from coming out, which might be bad depending on whether line launching here or having Croc at your back so you can run is better.

- You definitely need to make Croc pop out behind you and run through the third spore area on the way out instead. Line Launching just pisses him off.

- Nice finish before the mad dash.

18. Like the new MSJ revisit route. I'm not sure about the end, but if you don't need the trophy, it makes sense.

19. I like where the Cave Titan's going, but I don't understand why the proximity detonator's necessary, or why the gel is necessary for the thugs at all. Unless you can send them straight into the gate, just fighting it out could be faster.

20. Ivy's hide-n'-seek is definitely tied to the guards. She goes into it immediately once they're all KO'ed. You could definitely make use of that with the first guard wave, but I don't think it'd be a good idea with the second. That would take too long.

21. I've never seen Batman fall off a Titan prematurely once he's mounted it. I didn't even know that was possible. o_O

22. Yeah, prolly shouldn't follow my run's example for Joker with the gel and all. A couple of things:

- Crits are faster at crowd control than ground pounds any day. You only need two per thug, and while that sounds slow, ground pounds aren't exactly worthy of Flash's respect. There's enough thugs to keep the combo going until they're all dead anyway, and even if not, one ground pound isn't the end of the world. I just wouldn't do it multiple times if I didn't have to.

- Turns out clown bombs can be detonated with batarangs. You should DEFINITELY shoot those things down with the combo version.

- Getting the knife thug KO'ed by Joker was nice entertainment, but I hope I don't see this in the real thing. That almost always points to the fight going slowly. :\

The run looks like it's coming along nicely, all things considered. I wish you'd go after my run instead of segmenting (different versions aside), but at least the game's getting a new run at all.

Clip-by-clip (I forget what I did in my run, so I'll just compare everything to what I remember now):

1. I usually use a ledge takedown on the second thug in ITL, provoking the third to come up the ladder so I can KO him with a batarang that sends him back to the ground.  This way I don't have to go all the way to him (he covers some distance) and I don't have to mess with a ground pound.

In fact, that's one thing I don't like about these clips; too many ground pounds.  Some of them are necessary, but then there're a few that have got to be cut.

2. The cell's nice.  I thought about using the Riddler tape instead because my strats never put me on the other side of the room. :\

3. No improvements come to mind.

4. O_O Damn, Easy mode thugs are blinder than I thought!  I gave them [b]way[/b] too much credit.

5. You didn't clear that jump in MSJ to the water stream, but I think that's the lack of optimization you're talking about.

6. It's hard for me to believe this Arkham East method beats getting on the guard tower roof, multirang'ing the mansion thugs and gliding the whole way.  The rolls alone are rather unsightly in comparison.  Also, you do not need to crawl to the tower guard for a rang/GP attack; just jump kick the SOB.  You've got enough room to make it work.

7. O_O ...*brain explodes*

No critique from me on the record room.

8. I'm surprised the shimmying around the brick column in Scarecrow 2 didn't get you killed.  I know it's the concentrated beams, not the light in general, that kill Bats, but I thought they'd hit him there?

When you finish the nightmare, hold the camera in one direction and you should be able to turn it immediately when you can see again.  The clip doesn't tell me whether you remember that or not.

9. Fully agreed with the Mansion > Penitentiary route.  I was worried about the sniper during my run, but he's not a real threat on any difficulty.

10. What's with the crawling everywhere in the greenhouse?  Especially when they already know you're there.  Bad habit, maybe? :\

11. XD Fucking.  Blind.  And deaf too; someone should've heard that run, and indeed I've lost there for no discernible reason.  Still, this run is set to make a complete mockery of mine in execution... time-wise, I hope you're selling yourself short with that just under 2 hours business.

12. Eh.  One of those things I couldn't do due to the nature of my run. :\

13. You can nail the first guy with a batarang the moment you regain control after the door shuts, then just run up and ground pound.  The plant life doesn't block anything.  As for the four groundlings, I curse my stubbornness; using that particular gargoyle is so obvious after the fact.  Hopefully you can use some luck manipulation to keep this revisit from becoming the clusterfuck seen in the clip show.  Even the finish was botched, probably because all the gunfire messed you up.

Well that, or it could be that you're used to the challenge modes.  Ground Pounds are excellent combat challenge finishers, but not really optimal anywhere else.

14. Meh.  I dunno if it's faster, but it's not a big deal.

15. I'd regret doing the pervert Joker bit myself, but Lecher Mode is priceless if you don't remember the third nightmare too well.  Glad to see it's gonna be a running gag in all future runs. :P

16. Like the SC3 run, notsomuch the fight.  The proximity detonator really bit you here.

17. Croc's Lair stuff:

- The first platform makes no noise, and you need more than two beeps to trigger Croc's insta-kill.  A better start is in order.

- Not gonna comment on bad luck.

- One of the advantages of Hard over Easy and Normal is that there's no forced cutscene at the third spore.  It's the only one I remember, actually.

- The second line launch after the third spore could've had a more aggressive angle to it.

- Well okay, I do need to comment on some luck at the fifth spore.  The broken planks prevented Croc from coming out, which might be bad depending on whether line launching here or having Croc at your back so you can run is better.

- You definitely need to make Croc pop out behind you and run through the third spore area on the way out instead.  Line Launching just pisses him off.

- Nice finish before the mad dash.

18. Like the new MSJ revisit route.  I'm not sure about the end, but if you don't need the trophy, it makes sense.

19. I like where the Cave Titan's going, but I don't understand why the proximity detonator's necessary, or why the gel is necessary for the thugs at all.  Unless you can send them straight into the gate, just fighting it out could be faster.

20. Ivy's hide-n'-seek is definitely tied to the guards.  She goes into it immediately once they're all KO'ed.  You could definitely make use of that with the first guard wave, but I don't think it'd be a good idea with the second.  That would take too long.

21. I've never seen Batman fall off a Titan prematurely once he's mounted it.  I didn't even know that was possible. o_O

22. Yeah, prolly shouldn't follow my run's example for Joker with the gel and all.  A couple of things:

- Crits are faster at crowd control than ground pounds any day.  You only need two per thug, and while that sounds slow, ground pounds aren't exactly worthy of Flash's respect.  There's enough thugs to keep the combo going until they're all dead anyway, and even if not, one ground pound isn't the end of the world.  I just wouldn't do it multiple times if I didn't have to.

- Turns out clown bombs can be detonated with batarangs.  You should DEFINITELY shoot those things down with the combo version.

- Getting the knife thug KO'ed by Joker was nice entertainment, but I hope I don't see this in the real thing.  That almost always points to the fight going slowly. :\

The run looks like it's coming along nicely, all things considered.  I wish you'd go after my run instead of segmenting (different versions aside), but at least the game's getting a new run at all.

honorableJay

Edit history:

honorableJay: 2010-11-06 05:49:58 pm

honorableJay: 2010-11-06 05:48:19 pm

2010-11-06 05:47:34 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

Yeah I did overuse the ground pounds in some scenes simply from habit, but a lot of them are mainly due to sound control. Sure the enemies are pretty stupid on Easy, but once you alert them things can go bad pretty quickly. During the predator areas I was trying to avoid attracting attention too soon. The funny thing is even when all of the goons are on alert you can still sneak right by them and they won't see you unless they're actually looking at you. Apparently even ground pounds are considered silent kills (and the quick batarang+ground pound I was using is faster than a silent takedown). The ground pounds I definitely have to avoid are the ones during heavy fight scenes. Instead I just have to slow myself down and not attack as fast as possible to keep at least one person available to attack.

The crawling during the Greenhouse was mainly from habit, but I was also trying to avoid getting shot (and avoid the chance to get stunned). Once everyone is alerted though it's definitely better to just run.

Regarding Arkham East, it's technically faster, but having to take out the extra guard negates any time savings from the straight-forward approach. The roll-spam was to avoid getting shot until I was close enough to zip. The only other way I can think of to save time would be to zip to the very top of the tower and glide over. The downside would be getting shot in the air constantly. Maybe using the left tower and gliding over the cemetery would be faster.

In the first trip through MSJ I have never been able to get Batman to clear the jump to the stream. In fact that entire spot has me grab every ledge since I never make the jumps. The glide illustrates another oddity with the game: why is it Batman will sometimes walk off a ledge and start an immediate glide, yet other times he'll jump off first then glide? I gotta figure out how to get him to jump more often, would save time in certain areas.

"13. You can nail the first guy with a batarang the moment you regain control after the door shuts, then just run up and ground pound."
I was again trying to avoid alerting the other goons, although now that I think about it that would probably save time if I did it right. Most of the time when I batarang the first goon right as I enter the room it alerts everyone else, but if I catch him at point blank before he can scream nobody notices (works the same way with saving Gordon).

Now onto the Proximity Detonator. The Cave Titan fight strat that I was using goes like this: The first gel is to get the initial stun on the Titan, and the other two are for crowd control. The second gel I use (placed on the right side) is to keep the goons off my back while I get the second Titan-stun-gel setup. I try to position the crowd control gel in spots that won't get set off from the initial blast and have a chance to knock someone into the electric barrier (usually I'll succeed with at least 1 or 2 guys). Once the Titan is stunned for the first time, I knck him down, then setup another gel in the doorway. While I'm doing this, the first elevator-gel goes off and buys me the time I need (the gel isn't considered placed and set until you finish standing up, so a punch at anytime during that standup will cause the gel to disappear). Once the next Titan-gel is set, the first wave of goons start getting up, and the next wave begins to come in from the other elevator (the doors are triggered by stunning the Titan) which sets off the gel on the left side. This allows me to focus on the first wave without getting overloaded. While I finish up the first wave of goons and the second wave starts to recover, the Titan sets off his gel and gets stunned for the second time. Now this is where things start to get a bit hairy. By now all I can do is beat the crap out of anyone I can as fast as possible until I can stun the Titan for the last time (since by now both elevator doors just opened up and let out 2 waves at once). If I don't take out the goons surrounding me there's no way I can take out the Titan (you'll notice how I had a hard time simply hitting the stunned Titan simply because of all the goons trying to attack me). I've had so many segments get dumped because I could get 2 hits on the stunned Titan but got punched before I could go for the 3rd and knockout blow.

I did find a good way to bunch up goons to take out 2-3 in one hit: use the batclaw. If you only get goons in front of you they'll be bunched up nicely once you reel em in. Another good maneuver if you're close to the electric gate is to just roll-dodge at someone or batclaw a few close range goons. The roll-dodge has a chance to push someone into the gate, and the batclaw's pull momentum makes em walk right into it.

I'll just have to practice some of the segments a little more and find the quickest ways to plow through them. And I wasn't selling myself short on saying just under 2 hours, I'm pretty sure that the time I wasted trying to get Riddler trophies for experience was significant enough to have my final time at about 1hr55min. If it's lower than that I'll be shocked. You think your run is garbage, but for a SS with all the random crap this game throws at you it's damn impressive (I should know, I verified it).

Yeah I did overuse the ground pounds in some scenes simply from habit, but a lot of them are mainly due to sound control. Sure the enemies are pretty stupid on Easy, but once you alert them things can go bad pretty quickly. During the predator areas I was trying to avoid attracting attention too soon. The funny thing is even when all of the goons are on alert you can still sneak right by them and they won't see you unless they're actually looking at you. Apparently even ground pounds are considered silent kills (and the quick batarang+ground pound I was using is faster than a silent takedown). The ground pounds I definitely have to avoid are the ones during heavy fight scenes. Instead I just have to slow myself down and not attack as fast as possible to keep at least one person available to attack.

The crawling during the Greenhouse was mainly from habit, but I was also trying to avoid getting shot (and avoid the chance to get stunned). Once everyone is alerted though it's definitely better to just run.

Regarding Arkham East, it's technically faster, but having to take out the extra guard negates any time savings from the straight-forward approach. The roll-spam was to avoid getting shot until I was close enough to zip. The only other way I can think of to save time would be to zip to the very top of the tower and glide over. The downside would be getting shot in the air constantly. Maybe using the left tower and gliding over the cemetery would be faster.

In the first trip through MSJ I have never been able to get Batman to clear the jump to the stream. In fact that entire spot has me grab every ledge since I never make the jumps. The glide illustrates another oddity with the game: why is it Batman will sometimes walk off a ledge and start an immediate glide, yet other times he'll jump off first then glide? I gotta figure out how to get him to jump more often, would save time in certain areas.

"13. You can nail the first guy with a batarang the moment you regain control after the door shuts, then just run up and ground pound."
I was again trying to avoid alerting the other goons, although now that I think about it that would probably save time if I did it right. Most of the time when I batarang the first goon right as I enter the room it alerts everyone else, but if I catch him at point blank before he can scream nobody notices (works the same way with saving Gordon).

Now onto the Proximity Detonator. The Cave Titan fight strat that I was using goes like this: The first gel is to get the initial stun on the Titan, and the other two are for crowd control. The second gel I use (placed on the right side) is to keep the goons off my back while I get the second Titan-stun-gel setup. I try to position the crowd control gel in spots that won't get set off from the initial blast and have a chance to knock someone into the electric barrier (usually I'll succeed with at least 1 or 2 guys). Once the Titan is stunned for the first time, I knck him down, then setup another gel in the doorway. While I'm doing this, the first elevator-gel goes off and buys me the time I need (the gel isn't considered placed and set until you finish standing up, so a punch at anytime during that standup will cause the gel to disappear). Once the next Titan-gel is set, the first wave of goons start getting up, and the next wave begins to come in from the other elevator (the doors are triggered by stunning the Titan) which sets off the gel on the left side. This allows me to focus on the first wave without getting overloaded. While I finish up the first wave of goons and the second wave starts to recover, the Titan sets off his gel and gets stunned for the second time. Now this is where things start to get a bit hairy. By now all I can do is beat the crap out of anyone I can as fast as possible until I can stun the Titan for the last time (since by now both elevator doors just opened up and let out 2 waves at once). If I don't take out the goons surrounding me there's no way I can take out the Titan (you'll notice how I had a hard time simply hitting the stunned Titan simply because of all the goons trying to attack me). I've had so many segments get dumped because I could get 2 hits on the stunned Titan but got punched before I could go for the 3rd and knockout blow.

I did find a good way to bunch up goons to take out 2-3 in one hit: use the batclaw. If you only get goons in front of you they'll be bunched up nicely once you reel em in. Another good maneuver if you're close to the electric gate is to just roll-dodge at someone or batclaw a few close range goons. The roll-dodge has a chance to push someone into the gate, and the batclaw's pull momentum makes em walk right into it.

I'll just have to practice some of the segments a little more and find the quickest ways to plow through them. And I wasn't selling myself short on saying just under 2 hours, I'm pretty sure that the time I wasted trying to get Riddler trophies for experience was significant enough to have my final time at about 1hr55min. If it's lower than that I'll be shocked. You think your run is garbage, but for a SS with all the random crap this game throws at you it's damn impressive (I should know, I verified it).

honorableJay

2010-11-12 07:15:39 am

The Dork Knight himself.

Quickie update:

Been doing a few dry run SS through the game to check a few things, and I found out that nearly every set of Joker teeth and extra Riddler trophy can be skipped. If you have to stop to get the trophy then it's not going to give you anything you won't already have. I wasn't even starved for experience. Simply deactivating the gate to free Sharpe was enough exp to get the required 2nd upgrade for the sequencer, and when I got to the Cave Titan fight I had enough upgrades in backup to get the Multi-Frequency AND Proximity Detonator upgrades.

The only upgrades I'm still going back and forth over are the first two: Combo Crits and Twin-Batarangs.
Here's the current order
Combo Criticals
Twin-Batarangs
Triple-Batarangs
Combo Batarangs
Sequencer upgrades
Multi-Frequency & Proxy Det

The first two have the biggest impact on the early sections of the game. Combo Crits will make both the elevator shaft and Batmobile fights go quicker, but I'll lose a significant amount of time in the last room during Intensive Treatment (where you find Boles). Without twin bats I can't stun two of the goons and prevent them from splitting up (which wastes a lot of time chasing them down). It looks ugly getting shot, but is significantly faster than chasing them down (along with being more predictable on the outcome). I haven't figured out how to alert all 3 goons early enough with 1 Batarang to group them up and NOT die (they don't necessarily group up, they just don't wander, which lets 2 of them shoot the crap outta me while I take out the first goon). On the flipside I can save time in that room by getting the Twin-Bats first, but I'll lose some time at the elevator shaft and Batmobile. I could negate some of the loss by getting more Riddler trophies and having the Combo Crits right after the Intensive Treatment fight but again that'll waste time just getting the extra exp. I'm gonna run a few more tests to see which one works out best.

I'm only getting the Multi-Frequency and Proxy-Det upgrades for the Cave Titan fight which is why they're so low on the list (since it's the only place they're actually useful). I've tried only using the Multi-Freq upgrade or using none, and I get the best results with both upgrades (to the point where I can take out the Titan before the final wave of goons come out of the elevators). Luckily by that time I basically have free upgrades to burn.

Quickie update:

Been doing a few dry run SS through the game to check a few things, and I found out that nearly every set of Joker teeth and extra Riddler trophy can be skipped. If you have to stop to get the trophy then it's not going to give you anything you won't already have. I wasn't even starved for experience. Simply deactivating the gate to free Sharpe was enough exp to get the required 2nd upgrade for the sequencer, and when I got to the Cave Titan fight I had enough upgrades in backup to get the Multi-Frequency AND Proximity Detonator upgrades.

The only upgrades I'm still going back and forth over are the first two: Combo Crits and Twin-Batarangs. 
Here's the current order
Combo Criticals
Twin-Batarangs
Triple-Batarangs
Combo Batarangs
Sequencer upgrades
Multi-Frequency & Proxy Det

The first two have the biggest impact on the early sections of the game. Combo Crits will make both the elevator shaft and Batmobile fights go quicker, but I'll lose a significant amount of time in the last room during Intensive Treatment (where you find Boles). Without twin bats I can't stun two of the goons and prevent them from splitting up (which wastes a lot of time chasing them down). It looks ugly getting shot, but is significantly faster than chasing them down (along with being more predictable on the outcome). I haven't figured out how to alert all 3 goons early enough with 1 Batarang to group them up and NOT die (they don't necessarily group up, they just don't wander, which lets 2 of them shoot the crap outta me while I take out the first goon). On the flipside I can save time in that room by getting the Twin-Bats first, but I'll lose some time at the elevator shaft and Batmobile. I could negate some of the loss by getting more Riddler trophies and having the Combo Crits right after the Intensive Treatment fight but again that'll waste time just getting the extra exp. I'm gonna run a few more tests to see which one works out best.

I'm only getting the Multi-Frequency and Proxy-Det upgrades for the Cave Titan fight which is why they're so low on the list (since it's the only place they're actually useful). I've tried only using the Multi-Freq upgrade or using none, and I get the best results with both upgrades (to the point where I can take out the Titan before the final wave of goons come out of the elevators). Luckily by that time I basically have free upgrades to burn.

bloodisblue

2010-11-12 05:06:52 pm

Well recently I just played this game again and I found out two things that might be helpful in the run. (though you probably already know them)
The more useful by far is that rolling (or spamming space on the computer version) takes precidence over punching / skipping. So if you get a phone call spam the roll button while spamming skip and you will instantly roll and not have to worry about doing an accidental punch.
Also in hard mode you die against the initial venom thug in 3 hits which saves ~25 seconds from Zeds run (though I'm sure hard mode is slower overall, just pointing this out)

honorableJay

2010-11-14 06:14:10 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

I didn't think getting killed by that thug would skip the scene, I'll have to check it out to confirm.

bloodisblue

2010-11-15 08:16:18 pm

It doesn't skip the cutscene. Oops didn't mean for it to sound like that. It just ends the fight prematurely, which in the process saves about 25 seconds because of how much more damage is done in brutal mode. + all the health is restored directly afterwards. + I'm really looking forward to your segmented run in addition to Master Zed's current run. The amount of manipulation and tiny flaws that could be weeded out will seem so great Smiley

kind of makes me wish I continued my planning and running so you're run would have competition and be even better Smiley

(though I've run out of time to plan basically)

honorableJay

2010-11-16 05:12:29 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

Well, I can't say that getting killed works on Hard (didn't get to check yet) but it does seem to end the fight quicker in Easy (even though you don't die). After about 5-6 hits the Titan goon will do a fist smash then go into his heart attack death.

Too much work

2011-02-11 04:11:40 am

Hi. Was wondering if you are still working on the segmented easy run. It would be great to see.

Also I have watched the SS run and thought it was very impressive. I still cant get close to that time. I had a question about the grapling to ledges. Could it not be used in some areas to travel faster forward or is the time taken to drop down afterwards equal to the time it would've taken to run there?

honorableJay

2011-02-13 04:10:19 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

Usually the shooting/climbing animations cut down on the time saved. As of right now we believe it's used everywhere that gains the most time. Sorry I haven't been posting any updates on this, just haven't had the time to work on it lately. Once I do get the time to grind down on it though it should be finished pretty quickly.