Valkyrie Profile

2005-12-31 05:23:16 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I am just bumping this to update: Josh has been talking to me via PMs, and he promises he will get to this soon. He is currently catching up in tri-Ace goodness by playing Star Ocean 3 and Radiata Stories. Personally, I can find no fault in this!

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-01-05 07:55:29 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

Hello everyone, just letting you know that there's a forum entirely dedicated to tri-Ace. It's at www.seraphicgate.com...apparently it was up last year but shut down for a long time. Not many members as of now, but hey.

-Josh

Enhasa

2006-01-05 11:04:13 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Yeah but see, that's somewhere else. Think about all the work that takes!

I don't know, I like interacting with the unwashed masses. That forum must be like preaching to the choir. "So what do you think about VP?" "It totally rocks!" "I agree!"

Back to work for you!

Gorash

2006-01-05 11:08:04 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

And does it rock? Wink

(started playing it a few days ago)

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2006-01-06 12:03:07 am

2006-01-05 11:50:08 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

See, I like educating the choir on things even they don't know. Bowman's godliness in SO2 is the most obvious example...hell, some still don't even know about Lawfer in VP.

Also, I figure they could be quite helpful if I ever decide to try the A ending run. The planning for that is going to be rough, and you seem to be the only one on here who really knows the game. Multiple voices are better than one...

Also, the Seraphic Gate website will be up within a few months or so and feature battle videos and other good stuff. You need to reach a certain post count in order to have access to them...I'm willing to do this just because I love tri-Ace that damned much. =P

-Josh

Tetsuo9999

2006-01-05 11:53:00 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Yeah, unfortunately my PS2 is being a bitch and is letting me play gems like Devil Kings (with the stupidest censorship/localization I've ever seen) but not VP. I got to the Gorlha HQ or whatever it's called, before I started having to reset the PS2 a few dozen times to get it to read the game.

Oh well, hopefully they'll release the PSP port here. I don't see why not, since the translation is already done, but....

Enhasa

2006-01-11 07:19:41 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

And does it rock? Wink

(started playing it a few days ago)

"It totally rocks!"

Quote:

Also, I figure they could be quite helpful if I ever decide to try the A ending run. The planning for that is going to be rough, and you seem to be the only one on here who really knows the game. Multiple voices are better than one...

Also, the Seraphic Gate website will be up within a few months or so and feature battle videos and other good stuff. You need to reach a certain post count in order to have access to them...I'm willing to do this just because I love tri-Ace that damned much. =P
-Josh

Hey Josh, check the Japanese timeattack thread on the general board. About postcount, given what's happened here, I figure I can powerlevel my postcount if I need to. Wink

Quote:

Yeah, unfortunately my PS2 is being a bitch and is letting me play gems like Devil Kings (with the stupidest censorship/localization I've ever seen) but not VP. I got to the Gorlha HQ or whatever it's called, before I started having to reset the PS2 a few dozen times to get it to read the game.

Oh well, hopefully they'll release the PSP port here. I don't see why not, since the translation is already done, but....

Not sure how it could make a difference, but did you try changing any of the PS1 options like fast loading and smooth textures? I think they will localize. We're talking about rerelease-happy Square (Enix). Their knowledge of the insane secondary market probably makes a difference too.

[quote]And does it rock? ;)
(started playing it a few days ago)[/quote]
"It totally rocks!"

[quote]Also, I figure they could be quite helpful if I ever decide to try the A ending run.  The planning for that is going to be rough, and you seem to be the only one on here who really knows the game.  Multiple voices are better than one...

Also, the Seraphic Gate website will be up within a few months or so and feature battle videos and other good stuff.  You need to reach a certain post count in order to have access to them...I'm willing to do this just because I love tri-Ace that damned much. =P
-Josh[/quote]
Hey Josh, check the Japanese timeattack thread on the general board. About postcount, given what's happened here, I figure I can powerlevel my postcount if I need to. ;)

[quote]Yeah, unfortunately my PS2 is being a bitch and is letting me play gems like Devil Kings (with the stupidest censorship/localization I've ever seen) but not VP. I got to the Gorlha HQ or whatever it's called, before I started having to reset the PS2 a few dozen times to get it to read the game.

Oh well, hopefully they'll release the PSP port here. I don't see why not, since the translation is already done, but.... [/quote]
Not sure how it could make a difference, but did you try changing any of the PS1 options like fast loading and smooth textures? I think they will localize. We're talking about rerelease-happy Square (Enix). Their knowledge of the insane secondary market probably makes a difference too.

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2006-01-12 07:48:27 am

2006-01-12 07:44:37 am

spread the dirt to the populace

OK, just had a bunch of thoughts about the A ending run...this will be HELLA disorganized.

Lawfer is going to be a must for sure, and you're stuck with Arngrim so you might as well keep him in the team (plus he's darn good himself). But what about mages? Lorenta is part of the story and starts with Mystic Cross, so I'm leaning toward her. You can get an Ether Scepter in the tower, so one Celestial Star should take out Lezard, right?.

The Dragon Slayer is going to be a must-have for that area. I believe you're forced to fight Dragon Zombies there, in which case the one-hit kill is actually faster than running, and it also takes care of Lezard's buddies.

The Beast Slayer is a maybe, you get it in Brahms' castle and it kills the required Manticores in the tower.

Another thing I'm wondering...would it be worth going through Gandar's dungeon just for the Dinosaur spear? Probably not, but man that thing is sick (5x as powerful as Arc Wind).

The Creation Jewel probably isn't worth all the time and MP spent to get it and the weapons. After Lezard, there won't be any serious battles until Bloodbane, at which point you'll have the Valkyrie-Favor and Bahamut Tear (which are both better than the Creation Jewel stuff). Lawfer is the only one who suffers from this, as Arc Wind is a little more than half as strong as the Crimson Edge, but I don't think it's enough of a problem to make the Jewel worth it.

Actually, I just realized an issue with this team...nobody will be able to use the Levantine in the final battle. Valkyrie gets her uber sword, and Arngrim can't equip it. Maybe Belenus is the better pick after all...

...or would you not want to recruit a fighter at all and use Mystina? I forget what spells she starts with, honestly. Lorenta too, do you have any idea? You can send up Jelanda to get a second Mystic Cross if need be, but Might Reinforce/Sap Guard I don't know about.

Also, looking through FAQs, I see that enemy HP doesn't change between Normal and Hard modes, but nobody says anything about Easy. Hmm...

I'm wondering if this can't be done single-segment too. You'd have to get really lucky with the Slayer weapons not breaking, but aside from that things should be manageable with Guts and Auto Item.

That's about all...

-Josh

OK, just had a bunch of thoughts about the A ending run...this will be HELLA disorganized.

Lawfer is going to be a must for sure, and you're stuck with Arngrim so you might as well keep him in the team (plus he's darn good himself).  But what about mages?  Lorenta is part of the story and starts with Mystic Cross, so I'm leaning toward her.  You can get an Ether Scepter in the tower, so one Celestial Star should take out Lezard, right?.

The Dragon Slayer is going to be a must-have for that area.  I believe you're forced to fight Dragon Zombies there, in which case the one-hit kill is actually faster than running, and it also takes care of Lezard's buddies.

The Beast Slayer is a maybe, you get it in Brahms' castle and it kills the required Manticores in the tower.

Another thing I'm wondering...would it be worth going through Gandar's dungeon just for the Dinosaur spear?  Probably not, but man that thing is sick (5x as powerful as Arc Wind).

The Creation Jewel probably isn't worth all the time and MP spent to get it and the weapons.  After Lezard, there won't be any serious battles until Bloodbane, at which point you'll have the Valkyrie-Favor and Bahamut Tear (which are both better than the Creation Jewel stuff).  Lawfer is the only one who suffers from this, as Arc Wind is a little more than half as strong as the Crimson Edge, but I don't think it's enough of a problem to make the Jewel worth it.

Actually, I just realized an issue with this team...nobody will be able to use the Levantine in the final battle.  Valkyrie gets her uber sword, and Arngrim can't equip it.  Maybe Belenus is the better pick after all...

...or would you not want to recruit a fighter at all and use Mystina?  I forget what spells she starts with, honestly.  Lorenta too, do you have any idea?  You can send up Jelanda to get a second Mystic Cross if need be, but Might Reinforce/Sap Guard I don't know about.

Also, looking through FAQs, I see that enemy HP doesn't change between Normal and Hard modes, but nobody says anything about Easy.  Hmm...

I'm wondering if this can't be done single-segment too.  You'd have to get really lucky with the Slayer weapons not breaking, but aside from that things should be manageable with Guts and Auto Item.

That's about all...

-Josh

Enhasa

2006-01-12 11:46:12 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

My original thought was 3 mages. But since there's no real fights between Lezard and Bloodbane like you said, maybe you could just use your current party the rest of the way. It also depends on what levels your mages come as on normal. I don't know what you'd do with rods either. Wand of Apocalypse and Unicorn's Horn are both in the Arianrod Labyrinth, which is hard mode only, but Ether Scepters are pretty abundant. You might want to get Mystina's rod, but it's probably not worth it. Since you'd want Spell Reinforce, I'm pretty sure the best way to get that is to get Guard Reinforce when you transfer Lucian in chapter 5 and then convert that.

I remember Lorenta and Mystina both start with good spells, but let me try to find it. Aha!
Lorenta: Fire Lance, Mystic Cross, Heal, Sap Guard, Invoke Feather
Mystina: Dark Savior, Mystic Cross, Ignite Javelin, Normalize, Sap Guard

So you'd just have to find stuff for Jelanda.

I agree, the Creation Jewel really isn't that useful at that point. There's no way the Dinosaur spear is worth entering another dungeon either.

About just using Mystina... you know, given recruiting and the fact that you're handed 3 mages in A ending, I think it's probably a good idea. I mean, you only get Arngrim and Lucian as warriors, and you don't get to keep Lucian either. Remember, recruiting and spiritual concentration is bad, mmkay?

I think you should SS. This way you don't have to compete with the Japanese time and you wouldn't need to pull all your hair out either luck manipulating. Smiley

My original thought was 3 mages. But since there's no real fights between Lezard and Bloodbane like you said, maybe you could just use your current party the rest of the way. It also depends on what levels your mages come as on normal. I don't know what you'd do with rods either. Wand of Apocalypse and Unicorn's Horn are both in the Arianrod Labyrinth, which is hard mode only, but Ether Scepters are pretty abundant. You might want to get Mystina's rod, but it's probably not worth it. Since you'd want Spell Reinforce, I'm pretty sure the best way to get that is to get Guard Reinforce when you transfer Lucian in chapter 5 and then convert that.

I remember Lorenta and Mystina both start with good spells, but let me try to find it. Aha!
Lorenta: Fire Lance, Mystic Cross, Heal, Sap Guard, Invoke Feather
Mystina: Dark Savior, Mystic Cross, Ignite Javelin, Normalize, Sap Guard

So you'd just have to find stuff for Jelanda.

I agree, the Creation Jewel really isn't that useful at that point. There's no way the Dinosaur spear is worth entering another dungeon either.

About just using Mystina... you know, given recruiting and the fact that you're handed 3 mages in A ending, I think it's probably a good idea. I mean, you only get Arngrim and Lucian as warriors, and you don't get to keep Lucian either. Remember, recruiting and spiritual concentration is bad, mmkay?

I think you should SS. This way you don't have to compete with the Japanese time and you wouldn't need to pull all your hair out either luck manipulating. :)

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2006-01-13 05:05:40 am

2006-01-13 04:51:24 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Thanks for the starting spell list! Frankly, I don't think Might Reinforce would be worth it in an SS then, especially with the type of party I'm going to end up with...

Spell Reinforce sounds good. Does Sap Guard affect magic defense too?

As for Jelanda vs. Arngrim, I was thinking that you can't really get another Mystic Cross unless you send Jelanda up.

But then I remembered...looking at the FAQ, it appears that Meteor Swarm is just as good as Celestial Star; the damage multiplier for both is x10.5, and I *think* the normal versions of both spells have the same strength. And in Nethov Swamp there are actually TWO Shadow Servants right by the entrance. So Jelanda can easily get a good spell after all...

I have only one issue that prevents me from going with 3 mages: You can't get Mental Reaction in an A ending speedrun. This may be what kills the idea, unless you know something else...basically I'm sold on Lorenta and Mystina for sure, but not Jelanda because of this.

In addition, I am wondering if Normal difficulty might be faster for my B ending run, because of Nethov Swamp. The strategy here would be to get both Shadow Servants, keep Jelanda and recruit Shiho, and give them that spell. Might Reinforce wouldn't be as beneficial but still worth using, and you'd cut out a recruitment segment. Need to find HP differences...

Speaking of HP differences, one more thing about the A ending: If indeed enemies have less HP in Easy, then I may want to get the Element Scepter in the first dungeon. The boss just barely dies to one combo in Easy...

So, thanks once again for getting me started on all this!

-Josh

Thanks for the starting spell list!  Frankly, I don't think Might Reinforce would be worth it in an SS then, especially with the type of party I'm going to end up with...

Spell Reinforce sounds good.  Does Sap Guard affect magic  defense too?

As for Jelanda vs. Arngrim, I was thinking that you can't really get another Mystic Cross unless you send Jelanda up.

But then I remembered...looking at the FAQ, it appears that Meteor Swarm is just as good as Celestial Star; the damage multiplier for both is x10.5, and I *think* the normal versions of both spells have the same strength.  And in Nethov Swamp there are actually TWO Shadow Servants right by the entrance.  So Jelanda can easily get a good spell after all...

I have only one issue that prevents me from going with 3 mages: You can't get Mental Reaction in an A ending speedrun.  This may be what kills the idea, unless you know something else...basically I'm sold on Lorenta and Mystina for sure, but not Jelanda because of this.

In addition, I am wondering if Normal difficulty might be faster for my B ending run, because of Nethov Swamp.  The strategy here would be to get both Shadow Servants, keep Jelanda and recruit Shiho, and give them that spell.  Might Reinforce wouldn't be as beneficial but still worth using, and you'd cut out a recruitment segment.  Need to find HP differences...

Speaking of HP differences, one more thing about the A ending: If indeed enemies have less HP in Easy, then I may want to get the Element Scepter in the first dungeon.  The boss just barely dies to one combo in Easy...

So, thanks once again for getting me started on all this!

-Josh

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-01-18 05:32:26 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Bumping this for Kevin...haven't gotten around to watching your run btw, but definitely will!

Found out that Sleipnir's Mane increases Lenneth's running speed...something else to add to my runs. Wonder if you can stack it?

-Josh

Tetsuo9999

2006-01-18 06:32:16 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Did you get haxed or something? You IMed me with some weird .exe file... :-/

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-01-18 08:20:03 am

spread the dirt to the populace

That was because my brother opened something a random guy sent him, and it automatically sent itself to everyone on our buddy lists. I ran an antivirus program but evidently it didn't get rid of it.

However, I just got the latest AIM and that works fine, so don't worry anymore.

-Josh

Enhasa

2006-01-22 06:40:53 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Ok, I did some work last night on this. Alright, first I'm gonna reply, then I'll post about what I think next.

Quote:

Spell Reinforce sounds good. Does Sap Guard affect magic defense too?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Magic defense is called Resist (RST?) or something.

Quote:

As for Jelanda vs. Arngrim, I was thinking that you can't really get another Mystic Cross unless you send Jelanda up.

I think you can, but more on that later.

Quote:

But then I remembered...looking at the FAQ, it appears that Meteor Swarm is just as good as Celestial Star; the damage multiplier for both is x10.5, and I *think* the normal versions of both spells have the same strength. And in Nethov Swamp there are actually TWO Shadow Servants right by the entrance. So Jelanda can easily get a good spell after all...

The normal version is 3x1 instead of 4x1, but the PWS is what really matters, so it's close enough.

Quote:

I have only one issue that prevents me from going with 3 mages: You can't get Mental Reaction in an A ending speedrun. This may be what kills the idea, unless you know something else...basically I'm sold on Lorenta and Mystina for sure, but not Jelanda because of this.

There is a way, but it's ugly. I still think it might be worth it though, because even with Arngrim, you won't be able to do a max chain every other turn. You need either 3 non-mages or both melee with low PWS CT or Mental Reaction.

Quote:

In addition, I am wondering if Normal difficulty might be faster for my B ending run, because of Nethov Swamp. The strategy here would be to get both Shadow Servants, keep Jelanda and recruit Shiho, and give them that spell. Might Reinforce wouldn't be as beneficial but still worth using, and you'd cut out a recruitment segment. Need to find HP differences...

I would recommend NOT doing Normal, as I can't imagine it could be worth the time in any way. Also remember it makes the Artolian Mountain Ruins longer as well, and the enemies having more HP doesn't sound too hot. If you go 2 mages though, you can both Spell Reinforce and Sap Guard/Might Reinforce the first turn and Charge Break... there is nothing wrong with 2 mage buffing, unlike what I said at the start of this thread. (I took a quick look back and chuckled at some of the stuff we said... some truly primitive shit)

While I'm at it, this is how I think buffing should go based on number of mages.
1: preferably Sap Guard, or else Might Reinforce + CB
2: Spell Reinforce + CB, Sap Guard (slightly better) or Might Reinforce + CB
3: Spell Reinforce + CB definitely, sadly Sap Guard or Might Reinforce + CB is still probably also worth it because what else you gonna do the first turn... this is assuming you can get one of these spells without too much difficulty of course

Quote:

Bumping this for Kevin...haven't gotten around to watching your run btw, but definitely will!

I see we are on a first name basis now, Josh! Wink

Quote:

Found out that Sleipnir's Mane increases Lenneth's running speed...something else to add to my runs. Wonder if you can stack it?

I saw that in Captain K's FAQ... is this really true? If it is, I doubt it would stack. Of course, the only thing to do is test. Just find some long corridor with Dimension Slip and get out the stopwatch. While you're at it, you could test sliding, but I'm pretty sure you should be sliding out of rooms and definitely to get down from platforms. I don't think sliding + short hopping is any faster if anything, but the only way you'd even consider doing it for several hours nonstop is if your name is Mike Uyama. Speaking of which, I know he'd be someone who could verify when it's time.

While I'm thinking of it, are you doing this on a PS1 or PS2? Because if it's a PS2, have you tried how the fast loading (and smooth textures, while you're at it) option affects anything? VP is pretty good as far as loading times to begin with, but as long as it still looks fine with fast loading, this could speed up the run slightly.

Ok, I did some work last night on this. Alright, first I'm gonna reply, then I'll post about what I think next.

[quote]Spell Reinforce sounds good.  Does Sap Guard affect magic  defense too?[/quote]
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Magic defense is called Resist (RST?) or something.

[quote]As for Jelanda vs. Arngrim, I was thinking that you can't really get another Mystic Cross unless you send Jelanda up.[/quote]
I think you can, but more on that later.

[quote]But then I remembered...looking at the FAQ, it appears that Meteor Swarm is just as good as Celestial Star; the damage multiplier for both is x10.5, and I *think* the normal versions of both spells have the same strength.  And in Nethov Swamp there are actually TWO Shadow Servants right by the entrance.  So Jelanda can easily get a good spell after all...[/quote]
The normal version is 3x1 instead of 4x1, but the PWS is what really matters, so it's close enough.

[quote]I have only one issue that prevents me from going with 3 mages: You can't get Mental Reaction in an A ending speedrun.  This may be what kills the idea, unless you know something else...basically I'm sold on Lorenta and Mystina for sure, but not Jelanda because of this.[/quote]
There is a way, but it's ugly. I still think it might be worth it though, because even with Arngrim, you won't be able to do a max chain every other turn. You need either 3 non-mages or both melee with low PWS CT or Mental Reaction.

[quote]In addition, I am wondering if Normal difficulty might be faster for my B ending run, because of Nethov Swamp.  The strategy here would be to get both Shadow Servants, keep Jelanda and recruit Shiho, and give them that spell.  Might Reinforce wouldn't be as beneficial but still worth using, and you'd cut out a recruitment segment.  Need to find HP differences...[/quote]
I would recommend NOT doing Normal, as I can't imagine it could be worth the time in any way. Also remember it makes the Artolian Mountain Ruins longer as well, and the enemies having more HP doesn't sound too hot. If you go 2 mages though, you can both Spell Reinforce and Sap Guard/Might Reinforce the first turn and Charge Break... there is nothing wrong with 2 mage buffing, unlike what I said at the start of this thread. (I took a quick look back and chuckled at some of the stuff we said... some truly primitive shit)

While I'm at it, this is how I think buffing should go based on number of mages.
1: preferably Sap Guard, or else Might Reinforce + CB
2: Spell Reinforce + CB, Sap Guard (slightly better) or Might Reinforce + CB
3: Spell Reinforce + CB definitely, sadly Sap Guard or Might Reinforce + CB is still probably also worth it because what else you gonna do the first turn... this is assuming you can get one of these spells without too much difficulty of course

[quote]Bumping this for Kevin...haven't gotten around to watching your run btw, but definitely will![/quote]
I see we are on a first name basis now, Josh! ;)

[quote]Found out that Sleipnir's Mane increases Lenneth's running speed...something else to add to my runs.  Wonder if you can stack it?[/quote]
I saw that in Captain K's FAQ... is this really true? If it is, I doubt it would stack. Of course, the only thing to do is test. Just find some long corridor with Dimension Slip and get out the stopwatch. While you're at it, you could test sliding, but I'm pretty sure you should be sliding out of rooms and definitely to get down from platforms. I don't think sliding + short hopping is any faster if anything, but the only way you'd even consider doing it for several hours nonstop is if your name is Mike Uyama. Speaking of which, I know he'd be someone who could verify when it's time.

While I'm thinking of it, are you doing this on a PS1 or PS2? Because if it's a PS2, have you tried how the fast loading (and smooth textures, while you're at it) option affects anything? VP is pretty good as far as loading times to begin with, but as long as it still looks fine with fast loading, this could speed up the run slightly.

Enhasa

2006-01-22 08:40:03 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Alright, time to post what I've done. First B ending, then A ending.

Originally, your plan was to pick up Belenus and Shiho. Since that would mean you went through 5 PCs, that most likely is a waste. So I think your idea now is to drop Belenus and just go with Shiho. This is probably not such a good idea on Easy, since there is no good way to get Spell Reinforce. Bumping up to Normal (which I don't think is a good idea because of stats and everything I said earlier) would allow for 2x Shadow Servant from Nethov Swamp and Guard Reinforce -> Spell Reinforce from Palace of the Dragon.

I don't think this is as good of an idea as getting a 4th melee character on Easy, such as Belenus. Unless there's something I'm missing, like you can only do the whole Accursed Flame Gem quest if your Seal Rating is high, the Forest of Spirits has some great stuff to pick up. Since it looks more like a traffic grid than a more linear dungeon, it isn't too difficult to get the chests that are listed later in Captain K's intro section for it. Anyway, you can get either Sap Power -> Sap Guard or Dampen Magic -> SP -> SG, and either Mystic Cross or Sacred Javelin -> MC. The Sacred Javelin and Dampen Magic are really close to each other, but since there are no maps on gamefaqs you'd have to test what the fastest way is. I'm pretty sure you don't need to fight any bosses to get the chests, and I bet you don't even need to talk to the Elf really.

Of course, now we're coming full circle. You could get Belenus, but really I think not recruiting anyone might actually be the best if you can still beat Surt. At the very least, your experience will be split among 3 people instead of 4. And of course, you could always gain a bit more experience to offset the one less character you have. The main problem is obviously your PWS chain would not be nearly as good. Again, you'd have to try it once to know for sure.

Now, for A ending. First, I'm gonna point out, the holy grail of VP battling is to be able to full PWS chain every other turn. Mental Reaction is so good because it facilitates this, since mages with CT cannot use items. With 3 mages, it's a necessity. Even with just 2 mages, unless both fighters' PWS's have 4 or less CT (so Fairy Ring can do the job), you still need Mental Reaction to be able to PWS every other turn. Since MR is so important, you can get it in A ending, but it's ugly, and I'm going to assume that it's somehow possible to be able to divine Orihalcon for 100,000 MP. Fighting enemies gives you MP, right? If so, you can divine items in Asgard Hill, so when you fight is no worry.

If getting Orihalcon is a no-go, ignore everything I write below and just go with PWS'ing every 3rd turn. Lenneth would need the Fairy Ring, and would Charge Break mage #1 during the turn after PWS. Then Lenneth and mage #1 would CB mages #2-3 the next turn. This might not be so bad against regular enemy types, since we care about real time and not battle turns (CB turns are quicker of course), but a lot of the hard bosses like Bloodbane, Fenrir, Loki have moves that take forever.

Now assuming you can get Orihalcon somehow (beating the dungeon to get the Manual of Resurrection is definitely a bad idea since that's the 2 Hel Servant fight), it would also need to be on Hard difficulty to get Mental Reaction. (This is unless Hit, which is not listed in Captain K, can transmutate to MR somehow, which I doubt.) Now, I actually have no problems with using Hard for A ending. It's actually more in line with what SDA typically does with challenging runs. Like, the any% for a Metroid game will be normal, while the low% is typically hard. And if like you said the enemy HP is the same anyway, and the only differences are PC levels and available dungeons and the like, it wouldn't really be much slower anyway. Without gaining party XP left and right, we're still gonna have to level, right? Hard would be a bit more interesting anyway, since some of the dungeons you'd be visiting would have to be different from the B ending run, leading to more variety since each dungeon (including Artolian Mountain Ruins) would be different.

Ok, assuming all of that, this is what I would do. The goal is to pick dungeons to minimize the amount of Spiritual Concentration that you'd have to do.

My original idea was to transfer Lucian in chapter 5 for Guard Reinforce -> Spell Reinforce, but I actually think chapter 6 is better. This is because you're going to want both Spell Reinforce and Dark Savior/Mystic Cross anyhow, and this way works better. You get Dark Savior -> Sacred Javelin -> Mystic Cross, Dampen Magic -> Sap Power -> Sap Guard if you want it, and even a Tome of Alchemy I guess, which can auto-win vs all reguar enemies and turn them into experience crystals. With chapter 5, you do get Holy Wand Adventia and Star Guard which you can convert for 22500 MP if you need it.

For Guts, you can get it from Clockwork Mansion in chapter 3 instead of Gorhia Cult HQ. Auto Item you can get from Dark Tower of Xervah instead of Black Dream Tower in chapter 4. Both of these are slightly more involved, but not really much work and they're relatively near the beginning of each dungeon (i.e. before the puzzle aspects). In lieu of chapter 5, definitely the best way to get Spell Reinforce is from the Guard Reinforce in Palace of the Dragon in chapter 8. There's also an Ether Scepter and a Sacred Javelin later on if you transferred chapter 5, before the Guardian part which would take too long.

Speaking of Ether Scepters, you get one regardless of if you transfer Lucian in chapter 5 or 6. The next easy one is in Tower of Lezard Valeth. There are 2 in Arkdain Ruins, but I wouldn't recommend them because of all the enemies walking around and in chests. Your final wand is either the Ether Scepter in Palace of the Dragon or the Wand of Apocalypse (sells for 10,000 MP incidentally) in Arianrod Labyrinth, both in chapter 8, which is good because you're going to have to SC all the way anyway. Hmm, there's some other stuff like Eternal Fault you can get there that sells for 10,000 MP.

As for Mental Reaction itself, it's not hard given the Creation Jewel. You can get it from Celestial Castle really quickly (despite how it looks in Captain K). I think you can go to the Celestial Castle without recruiting Jayle and seeing Genevieve; if not, I have no idea what to say. Anyway, after the first open air room, you get Concentration -> MR and Reflect Sorcery -> Dampen Magic -> SP -> SG if you transferred chapter 5. Then you can just fall down to leave.

One last thing. Fenrir is weak against Fire, and Calamity Blast from Fire Lance is very good damage anyways. I can only imagine the complete FACE OWNAGE that might occur. The negative against Calamity Blast is that it only adds a pathetic 20 to the energy gauge instead of Celestial Star's ridiculous 70. So I don't think it'd be possible to get a PWS chain with 3 Calamity Blasts. Maybe 2, although I don't know. Then the last could be a Celestial Star or maybe Jelanda's Ifrit Caress (although it kinda sucks, but it's Fire), which adds 50. Fortunately, getting Fire Lance is not too bad. Lorenta starts with Fire Lance (does anybody start with all-around better spells than her?), and you can get 2 more (if you need both) from the hard/normal Artolian Mountain Ruins and Frigid Damsel -> Fire Storm -> Fire Lance in Tower of Lezard Valeth.

Ok, enough of that... time to devote myself fully to championship game Sunday!

Alright, time to post what I've done. First B ending, then A ending.

Originally, your plan was to pick up Belenus and Shiho. Since that would mean you went through 5 PCs, that most likely is a waste. So I think your idea now is to drop Belenus and just go with Shiho. This is probably not such a good idea on Easy, since there is no good way to get Spell Reinforce. Bumping up to Normal (which I don't think is a good idea because of stats and everything I said earlier) would allow for 2x Shadow Servant from Nethov Swamp and Guard Reinforce -> Spell Reinforce from Palace of the Dragon.

I don't think this is as good of an idea as getting a 4th melee character on Easy, such as Belenus. Unless there's something I'm missing, like you can only do the whole Accursed Flame Gem quest if your Seal Rating is high, the Forest of Spirits has some great stuff to pick up. Since it looks more like a traffic grid than a more linear dungeon, it isn't too difficult to get the chests that are listed later in Captain K's intro section for it. Anyway, you can get either Sap Power -> Sap Guard or Dampen Magic -> SP -> SG, and either Mystic Cross or Sacred Javelin -> MC. The Sacred Javelin and Dampen Magic are really close to each other, but since there are no maps on gamefaqs you'd have to test what the fastest way is. I'm pretty sure you don't need to fight any bosses to get the chests, and I bet you don't even need to talk to the Elf really.

Of course, now we're coming full circle. You could get Belenus, but really I think not recruiting anyone might actually be the best if you can still beat Surt. At the very least, your experience will be split among 3 people instead of 4. And of course, you could always gain a bit more experience to offset the one less character you have. The main problem is obviously your PWS chain would not be nearly as good. Again, you'd have to try it once to know for sure.

Now, for A ending. First, I'm gonna point out, the holy grail of VP battling is to be able to full PWS chain every other turn. Mental Reaction is so good because it facilitates this, since mages with CT cannot use items. With 3 mages, it's a necessity. Even with just 2 mages, unless both fighters' PWS's have 4 or less CT (so Fairy Ring can do the job), you still need Mental Reaction to be able to PWS every other turn. Since MR is so important, you can get it in A ending, but it's ugly, and I'm going to assume that it's somehow possible to be able to divine Orihalcon for 100,000 MP. Fighting enemies gives you MP, right? If so, you can divine items in Asgard Hill, so when you fight is no worry.

If getting Orihalcon is a no-go, ignore everything I write below and just go with PWS'ing every 3rd turn. Lenneth would need the Fairy Ring, and would Charge Break mage #1 during the turn after PWS. Then Lenneth and mage #1 would CB mages #2-3 the next turn. This might not be so bad against regular enemy types, since we care about real time and not battle turns (CB turns are quicker of course), but a lot of the hard bosses like Bloodbane, Fenrir, Loki have moves that take forever.

Now assuming you can get Orihalcon somehow (beating the dungeon to get the Manual of Resurrection is definitely a bad idea since that's the 2 Hel Servant fight), it would also need to be on Hard difficulty to get Mental Reaction. (This is unless Hit, which is not listed in Captain K, can transmutate to MR somehow, which I doubt.) Now, I actually have no problems with using Hard for A ending. It's actually more in line with what SDA typically does with challenging runs. Like, the any% for a Metroid game will be normal, while the low% is typically hard. And if like you said the enemy HP is the same anyway, and the only differences are PC levels and available dungeons and the like, it wouldn't really be much slower anyway. Without gaining party XP left and right, we're still gonna have to level, right? Hard would be a bit more interesting anyway, since some of the dungeons you'd be visiting would have to be different from the B ending run, leading to more variety since each dungeon (including Artolian Mountain Ruins) would be different.

Ok, assuming all of that, this is what I would do. The goal is to pick dungeons to minimize the amount of Spiritual Concentration that you'd have to do.

My original idea was to transfer Lucian in chapter 5 for Guard Reinforce -> Spell Reinforce, but I actually think chapter 6 is better. This is because you're going to want both Spell Reinforce and Dark Savior/Mystic Cross anyhow, and this way works better. You get Dark Savior -> Sacred Javelin -> Mystic Cross, Dampen Magic -> Sap Power -> Sap Guard if you want it, and even a Tome of Alchemy I guess, which can auto-win vs all reguar enemies and turn them into experience crystals. With chapter 5, you do get Holy Wand Adventia and Star Guard which you can convert for 22500 MP if you need it.

For Guts, you can get it from Clockwork Mansion in chapter 3 instead of Gorhia Cult HQ. Auto Item you can get from Dark Tower of Xervah instead of Black Dream Tower in chapter 4. Both of these are slightly more involved, but not really much work and they're relatively near the beginning of each dungeon (i.e. before the puzzle aspects). In lieu of chapter 5, definitely the best way to get Spell Reinforce is from the Guard Reinforce in Palace of the Dragon in chapter 8. There's also an Ether Scepter and a Sacred Javelin later on if you transferred chapter 5, before the Guardian part which would take too long.

Speaking of Ether Scepters, you get one regardless of if you transfer Lucian in chapter 5 or 6. The next easy one is in Tower of Lezard Valeth. There are 2 in Arkdain Ruins, but I wouldn't recommend them because of all the enemies walking around and in chests. Your final wand is either the Ether Scepter in Palace of the Dragon or the Wand of Apocalypse (sells for 10,000 MP incidentally) in Arianrod Labyrinth, both in chapter 8, which is good because you're going to have to SC all the way anyway. Hmm, there's some other stuff like Eternal Fault you can get there that sells for 10,000 MP.

As for Mental Reaction itself, it's not hard given the Creation Jewel. You can get it from Celestial Castle really quickly (despite how it looks in Captain K). I think you can go to the Celestial Castle without recruiting Jayle and seeing Genevieve; if not, I have no idea what to say. Anyway, after the first open air room, you get Concentration -> MR and Reflect Sorcery -> Dampen Magic -> SP -> SG if you transferred chapter 5. Then you can just fall down to leave.

One last thing. Fenrir is weak against Fire, and Calamity Blast from Fire Lance is very good damage anyways. I can only imagine the complete FACE OWNAGE that might occur. The negative against Calamity Blast is that it only adds a pathetic 20 to the energy gauge instead of Celestial Star's ridiculous 70. So I don't think it'd be possible to get a PWS chain with 3 Calamity Blasts. Maybe 2, although I don't know. Then the last could be a Celestial Star or maybe Jelanda's Ifrit Caress (although it kinda sucks, but it's Fire), which adds 50. Fortunately, getting Fire Lance is not too bad. Lorenta starts with Fire Lance (does anybody start with all-around better spells than her?), and you can get 2 more (if you need both) from the hard/normal Artolian Mountain Ruins and Frigid Damsel -> Fire Storm -> Fire Lance in Tower of Lezard Valeth.

Ok, enough of that... time to devote myself fully to championship game Sunday!

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2006-01-23 04:12:47 am

2006-01-23 04:08:42 am

spread the dirt to the populace

At around halftime I posted something on Seraphic Gate about the Bill Simmons Panthers curse...and it worked once again! =(

Now, on to the runs.

I'm doing this on a PS2, haven't tried the options you mentioned but I will.

Um, you forgot one really important thing for Easy: After Chapter 4, entering and leaving a dungeon triggers the bad ending. If you transfer Jelanda, you can do Arkdain Ruins in 5 but that's it.

As such, I think I'm stuck with my current strategy. Theoretically you could get Shiho and visit the Forest of Spirits for the stuff there...but you'd have to transfer Jelanda in Ch.6 for this to be possible. If you just send her in 4 you get Mystic Cross which is all you need anyway. And the earlier dungeons in Easy don't have any good spells...

Basically, I'm locked into Lenneth/Arngrim/Shiho. Only question left is whether Belenus is worth getting even in an SS.

About Sleipnir's Mane, the only reason I thought it might stack is because you can do that with other "Pos." accessories; as a matter of fact, in the Easy run, you NEED to stack Angel Lips on Jelanda to get Mystic Cross.

Due to the presence of the bad ending, I'm not so sure about your ideas for the A ending run. You can use Jelanda to get a free pass for one chapter, but that's it I think. Since you have to send Lucian in Ch.6 at the latest, he wouldn't allow you to get into Arianrod or Celestial Castle.

I'm pretty sure that killing enemies doesn't give you MP. I seem to remember this while testing Jotunheim, that I would get all my equipment at the start and my MP would never increase after that. So Orihalcon is not going to be feasible in this run, I think. That takes Mental Reaction out of it...

You get a bunch of Ether Scepters just from Sacred Phases, I think like 4 or 5. Plus, the one in the tower is going to be a must just because you won't have one yet and Celestial Star is instant win against Lezard. Yes, Gorhia Cult has an Ether Scepter too, but it's guarded by the boss.

Fire Lance is an excellent idea, forgot about that! Freeze Checks are going to be a must for that battle too, maybe Stun Checks as well? No bangles sounds bad, but getting dizzied is even worse.

Now, I could see Hard mode being better for this run mainly for one reason: Arianrod Labyrinth. Magic Blade "Cromrea" and Wand of Apocalypse are both awesome weapons. Cromrea has 1800 atk and +50% PWS damage (also -70% normal attack damage, but who gives a shit)...give it to Valkyrie for the Bloodbane fight, then keep it on Arngrim for the last two. And the Apocalypse doesn't break which is HUGE for an SS run.

Basically, Arngrim w/ Cromrea is a more time-efficient fighter than any mage, and I think it would be worth transferring Jelanda to get into Arianrod for those two weapons. As such, I think transferring Lucian in Ch.5 is better, because Spell Reinforce is good and Lorenta/Mystina both have Mystic Cross anyway.

Thanks for the ideas as always...I think we have the B ending run more or less figured out, and we're making progress on A.

-Josh

At around halftime I posted something on Seraphic Gate about the Bill Simmons Panthers curse...and it worked once again! =(

Now, on to the runs.

I'm doing this on a PS2, haven't tried the options you mentioned but I will.

Um, you forgot one really important thing for Easy: After Chapter 4, entering and leaving a dungeon triggers the bad ending.  If you transfer Jelanda, you can do Arkdain Ruins in 5 but that's it.

As such, I think I'm stuck with my current strategy.  Theoretically you could get Shiho and visit the Forest of Spirits for the stuff there...but you'd have to transfer Jelanda in Ch.6 for this to be possible.  If you just send her in 4 you get Mystic Cross which is all you need anyway.  And the earlier dungeons in Easy don't have any good spells...

Basically, I'm locked into Lenneth/Arngrim/Shiho.  Only question left is whether Belenus is worth getting even in an SS.

About Sleipnir's Mane, the only reason I thought it might stack is because you can do that with other "Pos." accessories; as a matter of fact, in the Easy run, you NEED to stack Angel Lips on Jelanda to get Mystic Cross.

Due to the presence of the bad ending, I'm not so sure about your ideas for the A ending run.  You can use Jelanda to get a free pass for one chapter, but that's it I think.  Since you have to send Lucian in Ch.6 at the latest, he wouldn't allow you to get into Arianrod or Celestial Castle.

I'm pretty sure that killing enemies doesn't give you MP.  I seem to remember this while testing Jotunheim, that I would get all my equipment at the start and my MP would never increase after that.  So Orihalcon is not going to be feasible in this run, I think.  That takes Mental Reaction out of it...

You get a bunch of Ether Scepters just from Sacred Phases, I think like 4 or 5.  Plus, the one in the tower is going to be a must just because you won't have one yet and Celestial Star is instant win against Lezard.  Yes, Gorhia Cult has an Ether Scepter too, but it's guarded by the boss.

Fire Lance is an excellent idea, forgot about that!  Freeze Checks are going to be a must for that battle too, maybe Stun Checks as well?  No bangles sounds bad, but getting dizzied is even worse.

Now, I could see Hard mode being better for this run mainly for one reason: Arianrod Labyrinth.  Magic Blade "Cromrea" and Wand of Apocalypse are both awesome weapons.  Cromrea has 1800 atk and +50% PWS damage (also -70% normal attack damage, but who gives a shit)...give it to Valkyrie for the Bloodbane fight, then keep it on Arngrim for the last two.  And the Apocalypse doesn't break which is HUGE for an SS run.

Basically, Arngrim w/ Cromrea is a more time-efficient fighter than any mage, and I think it would be worth transferring Jelanda to get into Arianrod for those two weapons.  As such, I think transferring Lucian in Ch.5 is better, because Spell Reinforce is good and Lorenta/Mystina both have Mystic Cross anyway.

Thanks for the ideas as always...I think we have the B ending run more or less figured out, and we're making progress on A.

-Josh

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2006-02-02 03:38:48 am

2006-02-02 03:36:50 am

spread the dirt to the populace

OK, update time!

I just ordered the A/V selector that Tetsuo recommended to me way back when, and I am almost done with SO3 (at the last post-game boss). So, when it arrives here, I should be ready to go.

The B ending strategy has been figured out, so that's what I'll be doing. We still have to hash out some of the details for A ending, but I will do that in a single segment as well. I figure I'll need two tapes for that one, so would I be allowed to switch the tapes out while changing discs?

So yep, I will be on this soon!

-Josh

Enhasa

2006-02-02 05:05:43 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Ha, I was gonna post, but you beat me to it! I was gonna update people on the progress since we were talking on AIM and not here, but you and me are apparently the only people who really care that much anyway. =p Including the Seraphic Gate people even.

Switching the tapes when changing discs is actually ridiculous technology. Most people have to pause and switch, and then it makes the timer all wrong, as well as look a little funky.

KICK ASS

Enhasa

2006-02-03 07:34:05 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I am skimming through some AIM logs and posting relevant info for posterity. I had to atone for being stupid and forgetting about avoiding C ending, so I did more work to try to make up for it. Wink

- I tested and Slepnir's Mane doesn't seem to do anything
- decided on easy for B and hard for A
- we are thinking of other stuff after these, like 100% hard A or Seraphic Gate 100% map completion
- can't stack fairy ring
- B is Lenneth, Arngrim, Belenus, Shiho... fighters with Power Bangle and Stun Check, Shiho with Magic Bangle and Fairy Ring... Shiho Mental Reactions and everyone else Charge Breaks themselves
- A is Lenneth, Belenus, Lorenta, Mystina... Lenneth and Belenus with Power Bangle and Fairy Ring, Lorenta and Mystina with Magic Bangle and <something>... fighters Charge Breaking the mages (who knew Belenus would be this useful btw?)
- Calamity Blast vs Fenrir
- auto item for B is 100 Union Plume, 99 Prime Elixir, 98 Elixir, for A it's 100 Union Plume, 99 Banish/Prime Banish (if prime is at all needed, do 2/2), 98 Elixir, 23 Prime Elixir
- try to get Might Reinforce from chapter 7 in A while transferring Jelanda, this ought to be possible... then endgame you Spell and Might Reinforce first turn, and then Sap Guard during any mage down turn later because it only takes 1 CT
- Josh wants to do SO2 without instant kills after this
- VP B ending sure is skipping a lot of game mechanics, but still nowhere near SO3
- Josh says you can wavedash with Lenneth, but it's not noticably faster than just running... I think you want to slide out of rooms and definitely down platforms... he is going to test this

One thing I just thought of. In A ending, if you have an Ether Scepter break on you in battle, I think you should be able to just equip another one the next turn after a mage gets Charge Break'd. This way it wouldn't waste any time.

I am skimming through some AIM logs and posting relevant info for posterity. I had to atone for being stupid and forgetting about avoiding C ending, so I did more work to try to make up for it. ;)

- I tested and Slepnir's Mane doesn't seem to do anything
- decided on easy for B and hard for A
- we are thinking of other stuff after these, like 100% hard A or Seraphic Gate 100% map completion 
- can't stack fairy ring
- B is Lenneth, Arngrim, Belenus, Shiho... fighters with Power Bangle and Stun Check, Shiho with Magic Bangle and Fairy Ring... Shiho Mental Reactions and everyone else Charge Breaks themselves
- A is Lenneth, Belenus, Lorenta, Mystina... Lenneth and Belenus with Power Bangle and Fairy Ring, Lorenta and Mystina with Magic Bangle and <something>... fighters Charge Breaking the mages (who knew Belenus would be this useful btw?)
- Calamity Blast vs Fenrir
- auto item for B is 100 Union Plume, 99 Prime Elixir, 98 Elixir, for A it's 100 Union Plume, 99 Banish/Prime Banish (if prime is at all needed, do 2/2), 98 Elixir, 23 Prime Elixir
- try to get Might Reinforce from chapter 7 in A while transferring Jelanda, this ought to be possible... then endgame you Spell and Might Reinforce first turn, and then Sap Guard during any mage down turn later because it only takes 1 CT
- Josh wants to do SO2 without instant kills after this
- VP B ending sure is skipping a lot of game mechanics, but still nowhere near SO3
- Josh says you can wavedash with Lenneth, but it's not noticably faster than just running... I think you want to slide out of rooms and definitely down platforms... he is going to test this

One thing I just thought of. In A ending, if you have an Ether Scepter break on you in battle, I think you should be able to just equip another one the next turn after a mage gets Charge Break'd. This way it wouldn't waste any time.

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2006-02-03 10:11:16 pm

2006-02-03 09:33:44 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

Yep, he's got it for the most part.

Only qualm is that Mental Reaction sucks when you only have one mage. I tested this and it wastes time, as Charge Breaks are all you need for B ending.

And I knew about the Ether Scepter thing, I do that in the Surt battle.

Anyway, I have to clean up around the house a bit...turns out I may not be able to test tonight after all. =/

I DO have some other thoughts though...in Arianrod you can also get a decent spear for Lawfer (Eternal Fault, 900 atk & 82 atk trust) but that's not enough to make him worth using over Belenus w/ Cromrea.

And I don't think Mental Reaction is going to come into play in any of these runs actually. I already explained the B ending...in the A ending speedrun you won't be able to get the Creation Jewel so that's out.

And in the 100% run...well, you can get Concentration for transferring someone in Ch.4, but they have to be decently leveled. You can also find it in Lost City of Dipan, and you'll still be using 2 mages at that point, so that would probably be worth getting if Ch.4 doesn't work out.

However, I wonder if Concentration isn't actually better than MR for our purposes. Whenever you do the PWS it reduces your CT to 2, so with a Fairy Ring the mages can go every other turn still. And that probably uses up less time than MR does.

Thus, I wonder if the trip to Celestial Castle may not be worth it in the pure speed A ending. This would allow you to keep Arngrim and not have to recruit anyone; you'll only have to use Charge Breaks on him and the mage without Concentration. You'd still go to Arianrod and get the same stuff, but Lenneth would get the Cromrea while Arngrim would use Bahamut Tear. Then after Bloodbane, Lenneth would get the Levantine since Arngrim can't use it, and Arngrim would get the Cromrea for the final two battles.

-Josh

Yep, he's got it for the most part.

Only qualm is that Mental Reaction sucks when you only have one mage.  I tested this and it wastes time, as Charge Breaks are all you need for B ending.

And I knew about the Ether Scepter thing, I do that in the Surt battle.

Anyway, I have to clean up around the house a bit...turns out I may not be able to test tonight after all. =/

I DO have some other thoughts though...in Arianrod you can also get a decent spear for Lawfer (Eternal Fault, 900 atk & 82 atk trust) but that's not enough to make him worth using over Belenus w/ Cromrea.

And I don't think Mental Reaction is going to come into play in any of these runs actually.  I already explained the B ending...in the A ending speedrun you won't be able to get the Creation Jewel so that's out.

And in the 100% run...well, you can get Concentration for transferring someone in Ch.4, but they have to be decently leveled.  You can also find it in Lost City of Dipan, and you'll still be using 2 mages at that point, so that would probably be worth getting if Ch.4 doesn't work out.

However, I wonder if Concentration isn't actually better than MR for our purposes.  Whenever you do the PWS it reduces your CT to 2, so with a Fairy Ring the mages can go every other turn still.  And that probably uses up less time than MR does.

Thus, I wonder if the trip to Celestial Castle may not be worth it in the pure speed A ending.  This would allow you to keep Arngrim and not have to recruit anyone; you'll only have to use Charge Breaks on him and the mage without Concentration.  You'd still go to Arianrod and get the same stuff, but Lenneth would get the Cromrea while Arngrim would use Bahamut Tear.  Then after Bloodbane, Lenneth would get the Levantine since Arngrim can't use it, and Arngrim would get the Cromrea for the final two battles.

-Josh

Enhasa

2006-02-04 06:26:52 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Only qualm is that Mental Reaction sucks when you only have one mage. I tested this and it wastes time, as Charge Breaks are all you need for B ending.

I know MR with 1 mage is suboptimal, but how exactly are you getting everyone's CT down? Doesn't everyone else need to self Charge Break?

Quote:

I DO have some other thoughts though...in Arianrod you can also get a decent spear for Lawfer (Eternal Fault, 900 atk & 82 atk trust) but that's not enough to make him worth using over Belenus w/ Cromrea.

I mentioned this on AIM with the same conclusion.

Quote:

However, I wonder if Concentration isn't actually better than MR for our purposes. Whenever you do the PWS it reduces your CT to 2, so with a Fairy Ring the mages can go every other turn still. And that probably uses up less time than MR does.

I was just about to say awesome things about how utterly brilliant this is (since I was thinking Concentration -> MR while glossing over Concentration), but I think I remember that there's something that doesn't work about this in practice. I hope I'm wrong though.

Quote:

Thus, I wonder if the trip to Celestial Castle may not be worth it in the pure speed A ending. This would allow you to keep Arngrim and not have to recruit anyone; you'll only have to use Charge Breaks on him and the mage without Concentration. You'd still go to Arianrod and get the same stuff, but Lenneth would get the Cromrea while Arngrim would use Bahamut Tear. Then after Bloodbane, Lenneth would get the Levantine since Arngrim can't use it, and Arngrim would get the Cromrea for the final two battles.

If this works, this is an AWESOME idea. Um, Concentration would allow for both mages to reduce CT, so I don't know what "mage without Concentration" means.

Last thing: what would you suggest as the accessory on the A ending mages other than Magic Bangle? Maybe Angel Curio or Material Gem? The Japanese segmented run probably made good use of Angel Curios of course.

Also, maybe not very useful but I figure I'd say it: When I was testing Fairy Ring stacking, I noticed that Fairy Ring + Fairy Earring would reduce female mage CT by 3. Well apparently Fairy Ring + Haste Ring reduces warrior CT by 3 as well.

[quote]Only qualm is that Mental Reaction sucks when you only have one mage.  I tested this and it wastes time, as Charge Breaks are all you need for B ending.[/quote]
I know MR with 1 mage is suboptimal, but how exactly are you getting everyone's CT down? Doesn't everyone else need to self Charge Break?

[quote]I DO have some other thoughts though...in Arianrod you can also get a decent spear for Lawfer (Eternal Fault, 900 atk & 82 atk trust) but that's not enough to make him worth using over Belenus w/ Cromrea.[/quote]
I mentioned this on AIM with the same conclusion.

[quote]However, I wonder if Concentration isn't actually better than MR for our purposes.  Whenever you do the PWS it reduces your CT to 2, so with a Fairy Ring the mages can go every other turn still.  And that probably uses up less time than MR does.[/quote]
I was just about to say awesome things about how utterly brilliant this is (since I was thinking Concentration -> MR while glossing over Concentration), but I think I remember that there's something that doesn't work about this in practice. I hope I'm wrong though.

[quote]Thus, I wonder if the trip to Celestial Castle may not be worth it in the pure speed A ending.  This would allow you to keep Arngrim and not have to recruit anyone; you'll only have to use Charge Breaks on him and the mage without Concentration.  You'd still go to Arianrod and get the same stuff, but Lenneth would get the Cromrea while Arngrim would use Bahamut Tear.  Then after Bloodbane, Lenneth would get the Levantine since Arngrim can't use it, and Arngrim would get the Cromrea for the final two battles.[/quote]
If this works, this is an AWESOME idea. Um, Concentration would allow for both mages to reduce CT, so I don't know what "mage without Concentration" means.

Last thing: what would you suggest as the accessory on the A ending mages other than Magic Bangle? Maybe Angel Curio or Material Gem? The Japanese segmented run probably made good use of Angel Curios of course.

Also, maybe not very useful but I figure I'd say it: When I was testing Fairy Ring stacking, I noticed that Fairy Ring + Fairy Earring would reduce female mage CT by 3. Well apparently Fairy Ring + Haste Ring reduces warrior CT by 3 as well.

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-02-04 07:41:39 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Alrighty then, I finally got to test sliding and a bunch more stuff with the Surt battle! =)

OK, first off a correction, yeah I goofed on the "mage without Concentration" part. Was thinking SO3 there for a second. =P

And I forgot you had already mentioned eternal fault, but what the hey.

Now then, with the A ending mage accessories, I actually wonder if you won't need Fairy Rings. In the Surt battle Shiho needs one so that she can PWS right after casting Might Reinforce. Maybe the same thing will be true with A ending mages, if not then I'm leaning toward Material Gem.

You ask a question about MR...well, I think I've finally optimized the Surt battle so I'll answer you here.

First off, I found out that all enemies have the same HP amount in all difficulty levels. I don't know if their other stats are different though. =/

Now then, it is possible to kill Surt in 6 turns. What's more, in order to accomplish this, Lenneth never needs to attack before the last turn (without the full PWS chain there you'll fall just short).

So for your first two combos, have Lenneth charge break Shiho afterward. The cool thing about the second time is that if the Ether Scepter breaks this will allow her to equip another one with little lost time.

Thus, since Lenneth didn't attack and Shiho's already at 0 CT, you'll only need to use one or two charge breaks between combos (sometimes Belenus gets enough gems from the combo to go without it). That's why I don't need Mental Reaction.

Also, I win this fight without dying almost every time now. One time I never even needed Guts! It would be cool to cut that out of the run, but I don't see that being practical for two reasons:

1. Flare Strike (Surt's 3-hit move). This is guaranteed death on anyone, Fire protection or not.

2. His Sacred Javelin kills Belenus (not anyone else though). And there's no available Holy protection unless you're willing to forsake the Power Bangle for a Curse Check.

I just got very lucky in one of my test fights, as he never used either of these moves...I can't see myself trying to duplicate that luck in an SS run.

Oh, and one more thing, on turn 3 he always casts Ifrit Caress and on turn 5 he always casts Might Reinforce. 1, 2, and 4 are the random ones where he may use one of those killer moves.

So then, that about does it for Surt.

I tested the sliding and here's what I found out:

1. Sliding to exit rooms is definitely faster.

2. The trick of sliding off platforms does indeed work, thanks! You'll only have a couple opportunities in the whole game to use it, but every little bit helps!

3. As a practical matter, the wavedashing slides are slower than running because there are little pauses between each slide (it's not as fluid as the wavedashing in say Marvel or Tekken). With frame-perfect execution it's probably better than running, but in legit speedruns it's not worth using I think.

4. When going up or down stairs, jumping is way better than anything else.

So, that's all my findings for today. Probably should do some practice runs for B ending now...

Thanks again,
Josh.

Alrighty then, I finally got to test sliding and a bunch more stuff with the Surt battle! =)

OK, first off a correction, yeah I goofed on the "mage without Concentration" part.  Was thinking SO3 there for a second. =P

And I forgot you had already mentioned eternal fault, but what the hey.

Now then, with the A ending mage accessories, I actually wonder if you won't need Fairy Rings.  In the Surt battle Shiho needs one so that she can PWS right after casting Might Reinforce.  Maybe the same thing will be true with A ending mages, if not then I'm leaning toward Material Gem.

You ask a question about MR...well, I think I've finally optimized the Surt battle so I'll answer you here.

First off, I found out that all enemies have the same HP amount in all difficulty levels.  I don't know if their other stats are different though. =/

Now then, it is possible to kill Surt in 6 turns.  What's more, in order to accomplish this, Lenneth never needs to attack before the last turn (without the full PWS chain there you'll fall just short).

So for your first two combos, have Lenneth charge break Shiho afterward.  The cool thing about the second time is that if the Ether Scepter breaks this will allow her to equip another one with little lost time.

Thus, since Lenneth didn't attack and Shiho's already at 0 CT, you'll only need to use one or two charge breaks between combos (sometimes Belenus gets enough gems from the combo to go without it).  That's why I don't need Mental Reaction.

Also, I win this fight without dying almost every time now.  One time I never even needed Guts!  It would be cool to cut that out of the run, but I don't see that being practical for two reasons:

1. Flare Strike (Surt's 3-hit move).  This is guaranteed death on anyone, Fire protection or not.

2. His Sacred Javelin kills Belenus (not anyone else though).  And there's no available Holy protection unless you're willing to forsake the Power Bangle for a Curse Check.

I just got very lucky in one of my test fights, as he never used either of these moves...I can't see myself trying to duplicate that luck in an SS run.

Oh, and one more thing, on turn 3 he always casts Ifrit Caress and on turn 5 he always casts Might Reinforce.  1, 2, and 4 are the random ones where he may use one of those killer moves.

So then, that about does it for Surt.

I tested the sliding and here's what I found out:

1. Sliding to exit rooms is definitely faster.

2. The trick of sliding off platforms does indeed work, thanks!  You'll only have a couple opportunities in the whole game to use it, but every little bit helps!

3. As a practical matter, the wavedashing slides are slower than running because there are little pauses between each slide (it's not as fluid as the wavedashing in say Marvel or Tekken).  With frame-perfect execution it's probably better than running, but in legit speedruns it's not worth using I think.

4. When going up or down stairs, jumping is way better than anything else.

So, that's all my findings for today.  Probably should do some practice runs for B ending now...

Thanks again,
Josh.

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-02-05 12:28:58 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Alright, did some practice in each section of the run.

Sliding is also faster when approaching an exit where you have to press up or down, because this cancels the lag. Kinda like Stinger in DMC3.

For the first boss fight, it turns out that you can only rarely kill the dragon servants with a single guard-break combo. I figured out a new and consistent way to win this in 3 turns though...

1st turn, go after one of the dragons. Most likely he'll be stunned with around half his life gone, which is fine.

2nd turn, have Jelanda cast Fire Storm on the other dragon. Wait until he falls to the ground, then have Lenneth and Arngrim each attack once. This will kill him and is virtually guaranteed to produce at least one red gem, which is all Jelanda needs. Then, with Lenneth's extra remaining attacks, kill the stunned dragon.

Then on turn 3, combo the vampire with everyone and win. You can't build the PWS meter without Fire Storm, and she needs one red gem from the previous turn to be able to pull this off.

Oh yeah, there is exactly one place in the entire run to use the sliding off platforms, in Jotunheim. In Artolian Mountain Ruins there's one spot that WOULD be good for it, except it often sends you flying right into an enemy below. =/ Come to think of it, this trick may not appear in A ending speed at all...

So yeah, I have saves at every spot to practice. I should be ready to go here very soon! =)

-Josh

Alright, did some practice in each section of the run.

Sliding is also faster when approaching an exit where you have to press up or down, because this cancels the lag.  Kinda like Stinger in DMC3.

For the first boss fight, it turns out that you can only rarely kill the dragon servants with a single guard-break combo.  I figured out a new and consistent way to win this in 3 turns though...

1st turn, go after one of the dragons.  Most likely he'll be stunned with around half his life gone, which is fine.

2nd turn, have Jelanda cast Fire Storm on the other dragon.  Wait until he falls to the ground, then have Lenneth and Arngrim each attack once.  This will kill him and is virtually guaranteed to produce at least one red gem, which is all Jelanda needs.  Then, with Lenneth's extra remaining attacks, kill the stunned dragon.

Then on turn 3, combo the vampire with everyone and win.  You can't build the PWS meter without Fire Storm, and she needs one red gem from the previous turn to be able to pull this off.

Oh yeah, there is exactly one place in the entire run to use the sliding off platforms, in Jotunheim.  In Artolian Mountain Ruins there's one spot that WOULD be good for it, except it often sends you flying right into an enemy below. =/  Come to think of it, this trick may not appear in A ending speed at all...

So yeah, I have saves at every spot to practice.  I should be ready to go here very soon! =)

-Josh

Enhasa

2006-02-05 08:11:07 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Now then, with the A ending mage accessories, I actually wonder if you won't need Fairy Rings. In the Surt battle Shiho needs one so that she can PWS right after casting Might Reinforce. Maybe the same thing will be true with A ending mages, if not then I'm leaning toward Material Gem.

If you don't have Fairy Ring you just Charge Break the same turn after Might Reinforce. At least, that's why I always do.

Quote:

Sliding is also faster when approaching an exit where you have to press up or down, because this cancels the lag. Kinda like Stinger in DMC3.

Yeah, I forgot about that.

Quote:

Oh yeah, there is exactly one place in the entire run to use the sliding off platforms, in Jotunheim. In Artolian Mountain Ruins there's one spot that WOULD be good for it, except it often sends you flying right into an enemy below. =/ Come to think of it, this trick may not appear in A ending speed at all...

Falling out of Celestial Castle at least. Wink

Quote:

So yeah, I have saves at every spot to practice. I should be ready to go here very soon! =)

Your dedication would terrify most SDA runners.

Now for some more AIM transcription:

- Surt can be killed turn 6 consistently, as long as Shiho's Ether Scepter doesn't break during the first Celestial Star. It involves not using Lenneth in the first 2 PWS chains for speed. Instead of needing Mental Reaction or Concentration, Lenneth just Charge Breaks Shiho.
- don't need Union Plumes for B... 100 Prime/99 Elixir
- Might Potions don't stack on Might Reinforce
- Concentration is worse than Mental Reaction in normal play, but in a speedrun it might be better/worth it. Its main drawback for us is that you can't use an Elixir and then reduce CT like you can with Mental. Maybe leveling Concentration (30/40/50/60/70) is an idea. This also solves the issue of what to give the mages: Magic Bangle and Fairy Ring.
- Fenrir's Frost Bait and Bloodbane's Gravity Blessing are gonna be bitches
- have to test buffing against first 3 turns Loki
- While wondering if Jelanda's hero value can get up to 110 for chapter 7, there really needs to be a character guide with traits... those are great! Along with maps, gamefaqs really needs this. We're trying to think of who has the lowest maxed hero value. Either Badrach, Arngrim, or Lleweyln probably.
- Not very useful, but Lleweyln (who is considered by most to be the worst character in the game) might be useful in a speedrun due to his PWS getting max hits on big enemies/bosses, except that bows mostly suck.
- Lenneth is actually the worst character in B run, maybe A. I can't imagine much of anybody would think this without putting any work into it.

Aside: Other than the SB with homer-ness (Panthers), I haven't looked this much forward to a SB since I can remember. I'm really pulling for Seattle too since they're getting shat upon so bad, heh.

Valkyrie Profile: "We may not have more posts than your game, but we might have more characters typed!"

[quote]Now then, with the A ending mage accessories, I actually wonder if you won't need Fairy Rings.  In the Surt battle Shiho needs one so that she can PWS right after casting Might Reinforce.  Maybe the same thing will be true with A ending mages, if not then I'm leaning toward Material Gem.[/quote]
If you don't have Fairy Ring you just Charge Break the same turn after Might Reinforce. At least, that's why I always do.

[quote]Sliding is also faster when approaching an exit where you have to press up or down, because this cancels the lag.  Kinda like Stinger in DMC3.[/quote]
Yeah, I forgot about that.

[quote]Oh yeah, there is exactly one place in the entire run to use the sliding off platforms, in Jotunheim.  In Artolian Mountain Ruins there's one spot that WOULD be good for it, except it often sends you flying right into an enemy below. =/  Come to think of it, this trick may not appear in A ending speed at all...[/quote]
Falling out of Celestial Castle at least. ;)

[quote]So yeah, I have saves at every spot to practice.  I should be ready to go here very soon! =)[/quote]
Your dedication would terrify most SDA runners.

Now for some more AIM transcription:

- Surt can be killed turn 6 consistently, as long as Shiho's Ether Scepter doesn't break during the first Celestial Star. It involves not using Lenneth in the first 2 PWS chains for speed. Instead of needing Mental Reaction or Concentration, Lenneth just Charge Breaks Shiho.
- don't need Union Plumes for B... 100 Prime/99 Elixir
- Might Potions don't stack on Might Reinforce
- Concentration is worse than Mental Reaction in normal play, but in a speedrun it might be better/worth it. Its main drawback for us is that you can't use an Elixir and then reduce CT like you can with Mental. Maybe leveling Concentration (30/40/50/60/70) is an idea. This also solves the issue of what to give the mages: Magic Bangle and Fairy Ring.
- Fenrir's Frost Bait and Bloodbane's Gravity Blessing are gonna be bitches
- have to test buffing against first 3 turns Loki
- While wondering if Jelanda's hero value can get up to 110 for chapter 7, there really needs to be a character guide with traits... those are great! Along with maps, gamefaqs really needs this. We're trying to think of who has the lowest maxed hero value. Either Badrach, Arngrim, or Lleweyln probably.
- Not very useful, but Lleweyln (who is considered by most to be the worst character in the game) might be useful in a speedrun due to his PWS getting max hits on big enemies/bosses, except that bows mostly suck.
- Lenneth is actually the worst character in B run, maybe A. I can't imagine much of anybody would think this without putting any work into it.

Aside: Other than the SB with homer-ness (Panthers), I haven't looked this much forward to a SB since I can remember. I'm really pulling for Seattle too since they're getting shat upon so bad, heh.

Valkyrie Profile: "We may not have more posts than your game, but we might have more characters typed!"

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-02-05 10:58:45 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

I forgot about that...since I have Lenneth to charge break, I won't even need a Fairy Ring for Surt. Good thought!

And Jelanda's hero value probably doesn't need to be that high for Ch.7, but she'll need extra levels for sure. If Lezard's tower doesn't provide enough EXP for the orb, we'll have to scratch this idea.

One other thing, I'm not so sure I'll slide except off platforms. The more I use it, the more I realize that the gain is very, very small. I mean, one screwup loses more time than you gain with them throughout the whole game. As such, I don't think I'll try it in A ending. B, maybe...

And yes, as a Browns fan I have a rooting interest in this game. Both against the Steeler fans and Skip Bayless. Wink

-Josh