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spread the dirt to the populace
Josh here!

Great to see you putting this much effort into this, Wally!  You've got some interesting ideas, too.  For now, here is my route through this run.  Note that I am doing a single-segment, which means I need to minimize luck.

- In the first dungeon, I grab Fire Lance (for Jelanda) and Element Scepter (for Tome of Alchemy).  Use the same strategy on the boss and keep both artifacts.

- In Ch.1, visit Solde for Avoid -> Guts.  Currently I am testing whether Attack Pow is worth the time or not.  Given my strategies, probably not, but it's possible!

- Skip Ch.2 and 3.

- In Ch.4, I visit Brahms Castle (grab Beast Slayer while I'm there) and Weeping Lily Meadow; you actually do not need to visit Gerabellum to get the A ending.  Then it's Dark Tower of Xervah for Auto Item - in a single-segment run, you'll need this for Loki!

Then Tower of Lezard, of course; BTW, that is always the last Spiritual Concentration in this chapter.  Anyway, you can actually avoid the first Dragon Zombie here: Shoot a couple crystals below you to make a platform.  This doesn't work with the Manticores, however, which is why I need Beast Slayer.  The fight with 2 Dragon Zombies is one of the more frustrating parts of the run: I combo spell + Grimrist to kill one, then hope the other one doesn't block Grimrist.  I make sure to get a few Guts levels for everybody here just in case.

Following that, I visit the hidden room to grab the Ether Scepter, which I give to Lorenta.  Then it's Lezard...first turn, I use lucid potions to keep a couple people alive.  Second turn, I combo Lorenta's Mystic Cross with the Beast Slayer to fill up the meter, then use Celestial Star for an instant win.

- For Ch.5, I send one of the artifacts up to avoid C ending, then recruit Mystina and Lucian.

- In Ch.6, I max out Lucian's hero value via event exp, send the other artifact for the same reason as the first one, then transfer him.

- In Ch.7 I use event exp to max out Lorenta's hero value, then send her away to, you guessed it, dodge the C ending.  I'm sure you understand the need for characters with high hero value, and those are the only two mandatory ones who qualify.  Also, I'll earn a couple more Ether Scepters through sending them, ending up with 3 total.  And yes, this makes my final party Lenneth/Arngrim/Jelanda/Mystina.  Jelanda's lack of a good starting spell is exactly why I grabbed that Fire Lance back at the start of the game.

- In Ch.8 I go to Arianrod Labyrinth and pick up the Wand of Apocalypse and Cromrea sword.  This takes less than a minute, and both of these weapons are great.  Apocalypse's durability is a must, since this is single-segment and I only have 3 Ethers, and Cromrea has high atk and boosts PWS damage by 50%.  As you'll see in just a bit, PWS combos are critical to all of my boss fights...

- Proceed with Weeping Lily Meadow and all the plot material therein.

- Asgard Hill!  OK then, to start, I turn that one Element Scepter into a Tome of Alchemy.  I use it in a fight with 4 Vanir to level up quickly.  This gives me enough CP to max out Guts for everyone and level Auto Item up to 3; the only thing I need Auto Item for is Union Plume, and level 3 allows me to set that at 100%.  Additionally, there is a great chance that the Vanir will drop a chest with Guard Reinforce, which I turn into Spell Reinforce.  This spell helps out with Bloodbane & Fenrir.

Then it's equipment time!  I get the Valkyrie-Favor for Lenneth, and give Cromrea to Arngrim.  Lorenta has the Apocalypse, since she has the better attack spell, so Jelanda gets an Ether.  I give everyone the best available armor, just in case a boss gets the first attack on us.  Then I create a bunch of Halberds and turn them all into Poison Crystals, repeating this process a couple times.  Finally, the accessories.  For Bloodbane, everyone gets a Power/Magic Bangle and an Angel Curio.  If I end up obtaining Spell Reinforce, one of the mages will use a Fairy Ring instead.

- Bloodbane fight next.  The aim is to use a Lucid Potion on everybody ASAP, then spam Poison Crystals on him.  Since he has insanely high physical defense, and the Lucid Potions make him incapable of attacking you, this is the fastest strategy.  Once I remove over half his life, I will cast Sap Guard or Spell Reinforce at the end of one turn, then use a full PWS combo on the next turn to finish him off.  The purpose here is to end the fight before he casts Gravity Blessing, since that spell wastes a lot of time.  The PWS order here is Lenneth -> Arngrim -> Lorenta -> Jelanda, BTW.  You want the mages to get the damage bonuses because of his defense.

- Following this, I give the Levantine sword to Lenneth and the Cromrea to Arngrim.  Jelanda and Lorenta will switch wands, since Jelanda's spell will be stronger for the next fight.  Finally, I will make Freeze Checks for my front-row characters, in case he gets first attack.

- The Fenrir fight uses almost the exact same strategy as Bloodbane.  The reason is that both of these bosses will never use multi-target attacks until their HP drops below a certain point.  As such, I use Lucid Potions and lots of Poison Crystals.  After enough of this, I cast Sap Guard/Spell Reinforce and finish him off with one last combo.  His Frost Bait attack at low life does huge damage to the whole party, so naturally I aim to avoid it altogether.  The PWS order here goes Arngrim -> Lenneth -> Mystina -> Jelanda.

- Unfortunately, the Levantine will go unused for the final battle since Arngrim can't equip it, so he keeps Cromrea.  One last time, the two mages will switch their wands, and everyone will have an Angel Curio as the second accessory.  Once you get this settled, sit through lots o' plot.  And for first Loki fight, just keep ending the turn obviously.

- Final battle time!  I start by casting Sap Guard on him; Arngrim cannot hurt him at all without it, and it gives a major boost to Lenneth's ridiculous new PWS.  Next turn I'll aim for a full PWS combo.  After that the curios will likely start breaking, so you're going to need some luck with Guts to get a combo in.  Toss some Poison Crystals at him if you get the chance, and go for a 3-person PWS combo (w/ Lenneth) at the first opportunity.  He shouldn't have much life left after that, so just finish him with crystals.


And that about sums things up!  If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them, as this run is my next SDA project! =)

-Josh
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Quick test run yielded a final save at 2:45.  I based this on a first save at Artolian Mountain Ruins at 42 minutes, which is horrendously unoptimal.

The strategy developed from this seems pretty solid, and I would very much be interested in comparing notes with Josh so that when he does get around to recording this speed run, if there is anything that I thought of that he did not...well, it'll just speed it up!
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Gah, sorry for the double post.  Let me share with you what I have learned from my testing.

I believe that if you follow certain parts of my strategy, you can do a single segment run in roughly 2:30 at the final save, including with mistakes.

I think the biggest thing you should reconsider is getting the element scepter, firelance, cromrea, and wand of the apocalypse and here are my macro reasons why.

But first, a minor nit.  Transfer Lucian in Chapter 5.  Why?  The rewards you get from Sacred Phase 5-6 are FAR superior to Sacred Phase 6-7, including a Guard Reinforce.  I fight the Vanir for Might Reinforce.

The biggest issue for me, though, is that transferring Jelanda in Ch1 instead of Lorenta in Ch7 means you get 3 Tomes of Alchemy for Lezard's Tower.

What I ended up doing was killing the first Dragon Z. with Grimrist.  The next two manticores and the two Dragon Z. group with Tomes of Alchemy.  If you end up going the Beast Slayer route, you could use one of your Tomes for the double Dragon Z group and then another as planned for the Vanir.

I have never had problems with running out of Ether Scepters.  I think it's an incredibly low chance of that occurring.  If you transfer Lucian in Chapter 5, you get a total of 4 Ether Scepters.  All you need to have is at least 1 in the final fight with Loki because he is super wussy (incidentally, Arngrim can most *definitely* equip the Levantine and he should for the Loki fight).  A Spell Reinforced Sacred Javelin cast every turn does an immense amount of damage.  Added with the Might Reinforce and Sap Guard you are casting, Lenneth and Arngrim's damage will be your main source of damage.

Our Asgard Hill strategies are pretty different, so I'd like to share the setup I've had the most luck with.  I actually don't give them good armor, because if someone like Fenrir attacks, I don't want them surviving.  If they Guts or Angel Curio, they will be free of status.  If they survive a hit, they can be frozen.

Bloodbane battle. 

Everyone gets Angel Curios.  Lorenta gets a Magic Bangle (and learns Spell Reinforce whereas Mystina learns Might Reinforce), everyone else gets Fairy Rings.  Mystina uses Sacred Javelin, Lorenta uses Mystic Cross.

Lenneth uses the Final Avenger, Arngrim, the Bahamut Tear.  The idea is to PWS with Arngrim and Lenneth as many times in a row as possible until it's time to blow through the rest of his HP with spell PWS.  Bow Lenneth doesn't do much damage, but knocks out enough gems to keep everyone going and adds a lot of hits, increasing subsequent damage.  First setup with Might Reinforce and Sap Guard, V and A PWS if they can.  Then Spell Reinforce from Lorenta.  V and A and M attack, with a judicious use of PWS.  Next turn, if you're really lucky, everyone will be clear of CT and then you can kill Blood Bane, but if not, attack with whomever can, and then PWS judiciously.  The next round, if all goes well, you can kill him.  The battle takes 6 turns on average, but you'll probably be able to cut it down even finer if you take Auto Item.  Final PWS order is Lenneth, Arnie, Lorenta, and Mystina if she's necessary.

Fenrir is similar, though even easier, now that you have Levantine.  You can either give it to Arnie and just essentially duplicate the same strategy as above (I usually swap Lorenta's Magic Bangle for a Fairy Ring here, so I can have her cast more support spells to break Fenrir's block), PWSing as often as Bow Lenneth can keep everyone clear of CT.  This battle is even shorter, lasting on average 4 or 5 turns.

Loki you know how to do Tongue

If you are up to it, I would honestly suggest that you take my strategy for a test run.  I think you will see how it hangs together, and I really think that you only trade a little bit of insurance for a much faster time.
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
UUUUUGH, now I can't sleep because I'm thinking about this.

Ok, I think (though I need to run some tests) the Lucid Potion poison crystal approach can be amalgamated with my approach for something really good.

Setup:

Valkyrie: Valk-Favor, Power Bangle, Angel Curio
Arngrim: Bahamut Tear, Power Bangle, Angel Curio
Lorenta: Magic Bangle, Fairy Ring (Mystic Cross)
Mystina: Magic Bangle, Fairy Ring (Mystic Cross)

First turn: Valkyrie and Arngrim put Lucid Potions on Lorenta and Mystina
Second turn: Valkyrie and Arngrim put Lucid Potions on themselves, Lorenta and Mystina cast Reinforces.
Third turn: Poison Crystals from Valkyrie and Arngrim, Sacred Javelin from Mystina, Sap Guard from Lorenta
Fourth turn: Poison Crystals from Valkyrie and Arngrim, Sacred Javelin from Mystina, Poison Blow from Lorenta
Fifth turn: PWS from hell.  Two Spell-Reinforced Mystic Crosses should do the trick.  This might even take place in the fourth turn.  Will have to run tests.

Fenrir should be easier, because you might just need one Celestial Star to kill him, which means that we've only used Great Magic a total of 4 times so far, and the chances of all of our Scepters breaking is less than 1% chance.

Loki, then, would be cake.  So now, the run as I propose it.

-----
Chapter 0

Artolian Mountain Ruins
Skip straight to the boss and use 3 flare gems (2 from Divined Antler Swords) and 1 thunder gem (from Two-handed sword) to defeat him in 2 turns.  Keep both artifacts.  Leave.

Chapter 1

Spiritual Concentration: Solde Catacombs.  *don't go in*

Level Jelanda 1 and increase her traits as follows:
+6 cute
-0 snob
+4 loves dad
-1 shallow
-1 fool
+7 stout
-2 naivete
+6 optimistic
Totaling 53 Hero Value
Transfer and sleep the rest of the Chapter.

Chapter 2

Transmute the Element Scepter from Sacred Phase 1-2 into a Tome of Alchemy.  Go to Solde Catacombs.

Get Attack Pow.  Use Tome of Alchemy on Dragon Servant group for quick win.  Get Avoid, transmute to Guts.

Artolia for Dragon Slayer.  Sleep.

Chapter 3: Sleep.

Chapter 4:

Weeping Lily Meadow.

Brahms Castle - Beast Slayer/Brahms

Dark Tower Xervah - Auto Item.

Tower of Lezard Valeth/Lorenta:

Transmute remaining 2 Element Scepters into Tomes of Alchemy.  Teach Shadow Servant (from Sacred Phase 2-3) to Lorenta.  Meteor Swarm has just as damaging a Great Magic, but the animation is faster (I think).  Ice crystal past the first Dragon Zombie.  Beast Slayer the Manticores, and use 1 Tome of Alchemy on the second group of Dragon Zombies. 

Get the Timer Ring and the Ether Scepter.  Set Auto Item on either Lorenta or Arngrim to revive Lenneth in case she dies.
Face Lezard Valeth.

First Turn: Lucid Potion Lorenta and Arngrim.  End.
Second Turn: Charge up and Meteor swarm for the win.

Sleep.

Chapter 5:

Transfer Grimrist, you're done with it.  Recruit Lucian and level him up and max his traits.  Transfer.

Recruit Mystina.  Sleep.

Chapter 6 and 7: Sleep.

Chapter 8: Weeping Lily Meadow.

Asgard Hill:

Setup for the fights as described above in this post, teaching Lorenta and Mystina Poison Blow (you get it from Sacred Phase 5-6, transmute the Stone Torch from that same Sacred Phase for a second Poison Blow).  Use the last Tome of Alchemy on a group of 4 Vanir for levels and to get a Might Reinforce.  It might be worth fighting the first set of Vanir you run across for additional exp and an additional chance to get Might Reinforce in case you don't get it for sure in the Tome fight.

Valkyrie and Arngrim want to max Attack Pow first before Auto Item.  Since Lorenta and Mystina will be shielded by Lucid Potions first, they will focus first on Auto Item Union Plume and then (is this possible? must test) Lucid Potion to save as much time as possible).  Guts is the first priority of every character.
Edit history:
Enhasa: 2006-11-03 05:30:30 pm
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Sorry I'm not going to be as thorough as I want, but I'm very busy, so I'll talk about what I think and Josh can fill in the rest. I found your gamefaqs thread too btw. You have some very good ideas. Please, if I come off as dismissive in any way, please don't interpret it that way. I hate it when people do that, so I wouldn't do that to you. I know Josh will test everything, since the last thing he wants to do is rush things.

I can't argue with results (your 2:45 is actually faster because like you said your AMR time is slower, but Josh's 2:40 could have been more optimized too).

First off, I still have to disagree with you about Jelanda/Lorenta and Lucian. The amount of benefit you gain from transferring them at better times is more than offset by having to get Suo. As I'm sure you realize, Element Scepter is because it's on the way to Fire Lance in AMR, and while I agree that Wand isn't appreciably better than Ether Scepter, you can't count on getting lucky with ES's in a SS, and Wand is lumped in with getting Cromrea. Cromrea is pretty massive; have you tested it?

The other macro issue is levels. I don't think there's much of a point to having more than enough CP to max Guts and set Auto Item Union Plume to 100%. You could be right with more levels and Attack Pow, who knows. But I think it's better to go Spell Reinforce and mostly damage with mages. If the end fights are as easy as you say, you might have passed the optimum value for amount of buffs. Probably not though.

I convinced Josh too that running out of Ether Scepters shouldn't be a concern, since it has just a 2.7% chance of happening. While we're on the topic, I saw what TAF posted on gf, and someone should ask him how to RNG abuse COO to get Ether Scepter in ch4. But maybe that depends on loading save so that wouldn't work. But that would save a lot of time in the Tower getting that ES, and makes the 2 DZ fight cake.

That's a good idea with no armor I think, depending on how often people get frozen.

Well I saw your latest post now, and I think you understand that the point of Lucid Potion is to save time on boss's turns. Also as you noticed this allows for Bangles on everyone. BTW, I'm probably an idiot and missing something obvious, but where are you getting your Sacred Javelins, Sacred Phase? Also you know casting spells kills Lucid Potions right? What do you think about using Flare Crystals on Fenrir instead? Also, I don't think Loki is that cake unless you are in higher levels. And well, I have a reputation when it comes to minimalism.



About other notes, which I just saw:
- Yeah, Lapis Lazuli is stupid.
- This wasn't a necessity by any means, but the route Josh takes around the overworld map is actually optimized by means of complete serendipity.
- The main thing I wanted to say, is that I am 100% certain that Sleipnir's Mane increasing running speed is total bullshit. I recorded using my capture card, counted frames, and uploaded here (intentional super terrible quality, timing is all that matters). I told Captain K about this on gf a long time ago, before I uploaded, but since gf is nothing if not a place that worships seniority, he completely blew me off, saying he timed with a stopwatch. I would show him this video, but I'm too lazy/busy to post on gf.



About the route:
- I don't think Attack Pow is worth it like I said. You have to go slightly out of your way in Solde and even win a fight, however trivial. All that takes time that I don't think Attack Pow makes back, plus you need higher levels to have enough CP.
- Another thing the gf people need to do is stop overrating the differences between times of great magic. It only feels like Meteor Swarm is "twice as fast" as Celestial Star, when it fact it's only 5 secs shorter. Any amount of finagling in the menu to use it instead is only going to take longer.
- Timer Ring is actually a great idea, depending on how tough it is to avoid all the enemies and how much it helps. Just a single prevention of an accidental encounter is worth it.
- Fighting for exp is a bad idea. If you don't get drops from Tomes (which is highly rare), you just cry and move on I think, with all your buffs already. Not getting Sap Power/Guard from a Tome costs a whole ~45 secs in the B ending run, but I think it had to be done since it's the only buff and Sap Guard helps 3 people. (With 2/2 fighters/mages, any buff isn't going to help more than 2 people, and you get diminishing returns because you already have other buffs.)



I'd really like to see what you think of the B ending run once it goes up. I think most people accepted TAF's run as optimal, but it just shows that you should never assume anything, which is why it's so good that you are doing what you are here.
spread the dirt to the populace
Hmm, Captain K's FAQ says that heavy knights can't equip Levantine.  If they actually can that would be awesome!

And you're saying that if you transfer Jelanda, in Ch.1, with good hero value, and Lucian in Ch.5, you'll be able to make it through?  I honestly don't believe that part.  You need to have above zero eval at the start of Ch.7 and Ch.8, or it's game over.

I have to leave for school now, will comment on other things later!

Thanks,
Josh.
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Thanks for your comments.  I have to be brief as well.  Let me address the things that I think may have been misunderstood.

In the latest run, I don't have to get Suo at all.  The first time I did it, I had to because I did something funky and caused the C ending to come otherwise (I think it was failing to transfer an artifact at a key point) so I did it to continue the run.  Otherwise, no, my 2:45 result did not include Suo.

Second, while under Lucid Potion, you can still cast Attack Spells,you just have to cast them from the menu, like you are casting Spell Reinforce and Sap Guard.  I also noticed that Spell Reinforce affects Crystal cast power, so it's absolutely non-negotiable now, and with a Lucian Chapter 5 transfer, there is no reason not to have it.  Mystina comes with Sacred Javelin already learned, so you cast that from the menu, but set her attack spell to Mystic cross so that when you PWS, it will be celestial star.  Ditto with Lorenta, except instead of Sacred Javelin (since she won't have it) you cast Poison Blow (which you get from Sacred Phase 5-6).  That way, your mages will do as much or more damage than the Poison Crystals every turn, since they have Fairy Rings.

Flare vs. Poison Crystals would seem like an academic question -- just do a test run to see which one does more damage against Fenrir, and then use that.  I haven't tested it, so I don't really know.  My gut reaction is that Poison Crystals do more damage because their damage multiplier is more than 2x that for Fire Storm.  Fenrir would have to take more than 2x damage from fire in order for Fire Storm to break *even.*

I also believe that Might Reinforce is non-negotiable, since it allows fights to go at least 1 turn faster.  I'll have to do some tests to confirm, but that is neither here nor there.

As for levels: there actually is a reason why higher levels is a good idea.  First of all, higher levels does have a marked difference in the power of your mages.  I'm not entirely sure why, but it does, and it's somewhat noticeable.  However, I agree that going for fights for exp is now definitely not what you want.  I started Asgard Hill with all my guys at level 8, and the only reason I had that many levels in the first place was from using Tomes of Alchemy against Manticores and Zombie Dragons in Lezard's Tower, fights that cannot really be any faster and that you must fight anyway.

The thing about Attack Pow is up for debate.  Maxed out, it contributes 240 ATK, which is more than the difference between Valkyrie-Favor and Cromrea, incidentally.  It probably isn't necessary, but it would only make Might Reinforce absolutely critical to make sure your guys do enough damage.

Also, for avoiding the C ending, I realize that you are just registering disbelief, but would you mind expressing that in a way that doesn't assume that I'm lying to you?  What would be the purpose of lying to you when you can easily take some time and prove wrong?  It's not something I can get away with.

Here is the explanation for why this works.  According to tri-Ace fanboy's FAQ, the C ending only triggers if the following two things happen:

1) Your Eval gets low enough so that when you exit a map, Freya comes and talks to you and

2) your Eval then drops to zero and you leave/exit a map point (the A ending cutscene in Sacred Phase 7-8 seems to count).  This is how people can have a single save that can get all 3 endings.

I need to run further tests to make sure that I have planned this out right, but the reason why in my timed run of 2:45 I didn't go to Brahms' castle until Ch5 and *after* I recruit and transfer Lucian is to keep my Eval high enough to avoid the first Freya talk.  So it might be that going to Brahms before Lezard's Tower isn't a good idea for this reason, and hence, why I use Tomes on the Manticores.

I would be happy to exchange contact information so we can talk more about the specifics, but I feel strongly that if you actually tried the run that I outlined most recently (Attack Pow is optional and actually),  but only re-ordered the Brahms castle to be done in Chapter 5 after recruit/transfer of Lucian, you would see first-hand the value of my strategies.

First of all, the run I have outlined only goes to 3 locations unnecessary to the A ending itself (Artolia for dragon slayer - I need to run tests because I think I can cut out this step now, Solde Catacombs for Guts, and Dark Tower of Xervah for Auto Item - actually, you can probably cut out this step too) and only diverges from direct routes on maps once, to get the timer ring and the ether scepter.  Compare that to your current path which requires Spiritual Concentration and going to a whole 'nother location for the Wand of A and Cromrea.

Furthermore, my path gets into the *same* number of fights as yours does.  On Asgard Hill, you fight the 4 Vanir for experience.  I fight the 2 Vanir to get Might Reinforce.  I also think that for the boss battles, the time difference between the two game paths is essentially nothing.

I am going to write up a detailed walkthrough of what I am proposing (making note of things that I still need to test) and the explanations why and post it here.  Let's exchange contact information via Email (I think you can do so even though I'm still a guest) and discuss because I think that once you give my strategy a shot, you'll be able to save a noticeable amount of time.
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Man, we suck at being brief! Tongue

If you don't have to get Suo, then what you said should be better, thanks. And that would make everything else you said better too. In fact, this would change everything. Please realize that if I sounded like I was skeptical about anything else earlier, it was because it wasn't clear to me that your path didn't need to get Suo.

About Lucid Potion, I'm an idiot, I knew that.

I always thought Gems were worse than Crystals since you can get them earlier. If that's not true, Fire Lance is better than Fire Storm. And from what you said about Spell Reinforce and TAF said with attack trust, it seems like the item spells really behave just like real versions of the spells, which is not true in many games.

About Might Reinforce, the issue is not really so much that you don't want it, than you don't need both MR and Sap Guard. For B ending, there's no point in both, but for A ending, you could be right.

Well about higher levels, this isn't a low level run or anything. I'm not opposed to leveling at all, just unnecessary fights. If we all agree that we don't need any unnecessary fights, then it's all gravy. Wink

Attack Pow has to be tested, but if you have enough CP to level it up without spending any more time, that sounds good. Oh and the main benefit of Cromrea isn't the ATK being better, it's the 50% PWS increase.

Quote:
Also, for avoiding the C ending, I realize that you are just registering disbelief, but would you mind expressing that in a way that doesn't assume that I'm lying to you?  What would be the purpose of lying to you when you can easily take some time and prove wrong?  It's not something I can get away with.

Nobody thinks you're lying or talking out your ass. If nobody has tested yet, that's just because we take too damn long to do anything at all (just B ending took over a year). Trust me, everything you say will be actually tested. Smiley But not by me, heh, I still need to play VP2. (Pretty sad, the sequel to my favorite game, and I still haven't even played it.)

I'm all for minimizing locations, so I'll buy cutting Arianrod and Xervah if you say it's possible in a single segment run. Artolia seems unnecessary, SS or not. For diverging from paths, other than Attack Pow (which we're both not sold on), you get Ether Scepter and Timer Ring only if you can't COO ES via RNG abuse. And honestly, if you don't need it, picking up the Timer Ring is strictly a waste of time, even if it's right there.

Difficulty levels for this game doesn't really require more skill, so really the best idea I think would be to run on Normal so that everything can remain the same, but be in higher levels. The Hard was only for Arianrod anyway. This way, the levels might actually be high enough to consistenly survive, but I don't know about that or if it would be faster to get into such a level range.

About e-mail, I strongly recommend against that. There's no benefit that I can see from doing that over just posting here.  You don't even need an account, as you've realized. All you'd be doing is preventing anything from being posted here for posterity. I already feel bad enough discussing anything on AIM. Wink

Anyway, your appearance on these boards is one of the awesomest things that has happened here recently (it brought me out of hiatus actually). Besides VP, are there any other tri-Ace games you would like to help out on? I'm waiting for the day when we can get total coverage, at least on the US released games. Smiley
spread the dirt to the populace
Man Wally, this thread just suddenly got a new injection of awesome!  Thanks for contributing.

OK then, lemme explain my last comment...

I tried a test run where I transfer Jelanda in Ch.1 like you say, and was not able to complete the game without grabbing an extra character somewhere.  Not sure if you know this, but the Ch.6-7 Sacred Phase can trigger C ending just like the Ch.7-8 one.  This was why I transferred Lucian in Ch.6 and Lorenta in Ch.7 - I couldn't find any other way to make it through the game.  As such, I would love for you to explain how you pull this off; it would be much faster and make the run a lot easier on me as well.

Other points:

- Poison Crystals are easily better than Flare, even against Fenrir.

- I did not know that Spell Reinforce boosts crystal damage.  Between that, Bloodbane's physical defense, and Fenrir's weakness to fire, it is a clear must, and with your strategy we'll automatically get one it looks like.  Huge plus!

- I also didn't know that you can still cast menu attack spells with Lucid Potion.  I was already using Sap Guard in this position, so total stupidity on my part for not putting the rest together.

- I don't think Might Reinforce is really necessary here.  We already have Spell Reinforce and Sap Guard, so it's tough to find opportunities for Might to get in there.  Maybe it'll save turns on Bloodbane & Fenrir, but against Loki you won't have the chance for anything besides Sap.

- By sending Jelanda in Ch.1, there should be no need for Dragon or Beast Slayer.  We'll have 3 Tomes for Tower of Lezard, which is the exact number we need.  If we get Attack Pow, then I'd just make more Flare Gems for the fight there.

- If we end up having to get the Ether Scepter from the tower, Timer Ring is definitely a good idea.  There is one particular Wraith enemy on Asgard Hill who is extremely difficult to avoid.

- I still don't see how I'll be able to complete a single-segment reliably without Wand of Apocalypse.  Even with your strategy, we'll only end up with 5 Ethers to be divided between 2 characters.  We'll use them for 4 battles: vs. Lezard, Bloodbane, and Fenrir, there will be one opportunity for them to break, and vs. Loki there will be more.  I'm not so keen on taking that chance, but maybe someone could convince me.

- If I do end up going that route, then Normal mode is easily faster because of exp.  This may make it possible to max out Attack Pow without wasting any time.

- Along the same lines, I don't know if I'll want to risk this without Auto Item.  Keeping everybody alive is important since I don't want Guts to fail and kill my run.  It also allows us to toss crystals at Loki while we wait for a combo opportunity.

- Visiting Brahms after sending Lucian is interesting.  I didn't think I could afford this before, but since we evidently don't need Beast Slayer that sounds fine.

- vs. Fenrir, you definitely need to use Calamity Blast in place of Celestial Star.  Lorenta starts with that spell, and as for Mystina...do we ever receive a Fire Lance from Odin?  I could've sworn you do, but don't remember.


Alright then, that's all for now!  I'm impressed with your ingenuity here, and look forward to working together to get all this figured out.

-Josh
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Ok guys, I've written up a really rough draft of what I hope will become a speedrun FAQ.  I'm going to copy and paste its contents here.  I address all of your questions, Josh, including how to avoid the C ending and why I think it works the way that it does.

As for Normal v. Hard, yes, I agree that doing it on Normal would likely be faster.  However, changing strategies from Hard to Normal is not at all difficult, so I have kept all of my notes for the Hard mode for completeness.

Here you go:



This document will eventually become an FAQ for speed-running Valkyrie Profile A ending on Hard Mode.  The work documented herein is the product of collaboration with many individuals, both through discussion and through previous documents created.

I aim to be as complete as possible in my descriptions and directions so if a player follows them exactly, he will not only have adopted the strategic considerations but also some measure of movement efficiency.

As a work in progress, I have indicated things that I still need to test.  Without further ado, I want to discuss some overall basics.

It is possible to trigger the A ending sequence without visiting or recruiting any Einherjar that is not required by the sequence itself.  This requires very close attention to the order in which things are done, but if followed carefully, there is no danger of triggering the C ending.

A quick discussion of Seal v. Evaluation rating.  For a more complete analysis, please consider tri-Ace Fanboy’s FAQ on Endings.  There are some events that will only affect Seal rating.  Some events only affect Evaluation rating.  Some affect both.  It’s manipulating the events that affect both that we’re interested in.

Seal rating refers to the seal on Valkyrie’s memory.  Only by weakening it past a certain point in Chapter 7 (37 is the highest seal rating value that) will trigger the A ending.  This must be combined with transferring Lucian prior to Sacred Phase 6-7.

Evaluation rating determines whether or not the C ending triggers.  There seem to be two components to this.

If you exit from a map point to the World Map with an Evaluation score of 26 or lower, Freya will come and give you a warning.  If, after being warned, you exit from a map point to the World Map with an Evaluation score of 0, you will trigger the C ending.  For the purpose of this second trigger, the A ending cinematic during Sacred Phase 7-8 counts as exiting a map point to the World Map.  However, the A ending cinematic will not trigger Freya’s warning.  We can use this fact to completely avoid even getting the Freya warning to be begin with, allowing us to safely cross into the A ending with minimal character transfers.

Now, to the Walkthrough proper.

Chapter 0:

Artolian Mountain Ruins:
From the entry map, go right and then right again up the stairs.  Next go left and enter the leftmost room and open the bag (Iron Key).  Retrace your steps (down, down the stairs) and enter the leftmost door.  Open the gate with the key and go left down the stairs.
Here, drop down along the right side of the screen.  Go right.  Slash the pillar twice and then exit to the left.
Climb up this screen along the right side and exit on the right.  Run to the right side of the screen and descend the stairs (press up).  This next screen requires some practice to do correctly.  Quickly avoid the first monster and then jump upwards along the ladder to slip by another baddie.  Once you’re at the top of the ladder, exit to the right up the stairs.

This is the Save Point.  Here, un-equip Arngrim and Valkyrie.  Divine 2 Antler swords and then transmute the 4 weapons into gems.  Go on to the final boss.

Elder Vampire and 2 Dragon Servants:
Turn 1:  Thunder Gem on the Elder Vampire, Flare Gem on Dragon Servant (dies).
Turn 2:  Flare Gems on Elder Vampire and Dragon Servant.  Win.

Open and keep both artifacts.  Exit the dungeon.

Chapter 1:

Spiritual Concentration until you get Solde Catacombs.  Enter.

Solde Catacombs.  Go left and drop down the two ladders.  Exit this room on the left and exit the following room on the left.  Now, climb up the stairs and jump past this enemy to open the chest (Avoid).  Now leave the dungeon.

Level Jeland up to level 2 with Event Exp.  This should be around the 800 exp mark depending on whether or not magic crystals were knocked out in the Elder Vampire fight.  Now, go to her traits.  These should be leveled up as follows:

+6 cute
-0 snob
+4 loves dad
-1 shallow
-1 fool
+7 stout
-2 naivete
+6 optimistic

This totals 53 Hero Value.  Transfer her.  This is done not only to keep Evaluation high enough so that we can manipulate it in Chapter 4, but also for the items.  Among other things, we get 3 Element Scepters and a Shadow Servant.

Sleep until Chapter 4.

Chapter 4: 

Spiritual Concentration until Lezard’s Tower appears.

The Evaluation Rating effects need to be tested here, so I will propose 2 ways to do things for Chapters 4 and 5, one that I *know* works and one that I think will work.  This is because I am still not sure the precise effects that recruiting Lucian and Sacred Phase 4-5 have on Evaluation Rating.  For reference, I believe that meeting Brahms and Recruiting Mystina incur -10 and -15 to Evaluation rating respectively.  I am unsure whether recruiting Lucian incurs a penalty to Evaluation and if so, how large.  I am currently leaning towards Lucian NOT incurring a penalty, which would make sense because you can transfer him, unlike Mystina, so it would not make sense in the plot to be punished for doing something that actually helps the war effort.

Order of events that I *know* works: Weeping Lily Meadow, Lezard’s Tower.  Sleep.  Transfer 2 artifacts, recruit/transfer Lucian, recruit Mystina, Brahms castle.

Order of events that I *think* works: Weeping Lily Meadow, Brahms castle, Lezard’s Tower, transfer 2 artifacts.  Sleep.  Recruit/transfer Lucian, recruit Mystina.

This is how I figure it.  After doing Lezard’s Tower and Sacred Phase 4-5, your Evaluation rating is 51 if you never take off your Nibelungen Ring.  If you do Brahms before Lezard’s Tower, that would mean your Evaluation in Ch 5 would be 41.  If you recruited Mystina afterwards, this would drop your Evaluation to 26, triggering Freya’s warning.  By transferring 1 artifact, this bumps Evaluation up to 27, high enough to avoid Freya’s warning, which means we are safely through to the A ending.

In any case, if you do Brahms before Lezard’s Tower, detour to get the Beast Slayer.

Tower of Lezard Valeth:

Begin by including Lorenta in your party.  Divine three Angel Curios (you may need to convert the Sealed Box to MP, not sure).  Equip everyone with one (be sure not to un-equip the Nibelungen Ring!).  Give him the Beast Slayer if you did Brahms Castle first.  If not, Divine a three-hit sword for him and a three-hit bow for Valkyrie, and 2 Lucid Potions.  Transmute all Element Scepters to Tomes of Alchemy, and set Lorenta’s Attack to Mystic Cross.

Exit left and then up.  Go left to get on the elevator.  Shoot a crystal onto the left wall of the elevator and jump on to it to avoid the monster.  Get off the elevator at the second stop.

Exit down, then go up on the left side of the screen, right, down, left and then up, avoiding all monsters (you have to use crystal steps to avoid a Dragon Zombie).  Enter the elevator, avoiding the monster with the same crystal technique.  Get off at the first stop.  Exit up, then on the right side of the screen, down.

Kill the Manticore with the Beast Slayer (or Tome of Alchemy), exit up on the left side of the screen.

<snip rest of directions for now>  Complete the rest of the dungeon, using Beast Slayer or Tome of Alchemy on the Manticores and Dragon Zombie groups.  Make sure to get the Timer Ring and the Ether Scepter in the transportation room.  Leave the Creation Gem – it doesn’t really help in this run.

Equip Lorenta with the Ether Scepter and equip Valkyrie with the Timer Ring.  There is one room where there are a lot of enemies, and the Timer Ring helps a lot in getting past them without triggering battles.  Confront Lezard.

Lezard Valeth and two Dragon Warriors.

Turn 1: Lucid Potion Valkyrie and Arngrim.  With Angel Curios, this means that nobody will die since Lezard is the only one who can do damage.
Turn 2: Build up PWS and unleash Celestial Star.  Win.

Sleep.

Chapter 5:

Spiritual Concentration until you can recruit Lucian and Mystina.

Recruit Lucian.  Level him up twice with Event Exp, max out his traits and send him on up (Pearl of Karula and all that).

Brahms and then recruit Mystina.

Sleep until Asgard Hill.
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<part two because it is too long>

Asgard Hill:

First, Divine a Bahamut Tear (+50% PWS damage) for Arngrim and a Valkyrie Favor for Valkyrie, but do not equip the Favor on Valkyrie yet.  Then divine two Power Bangles, two Magic Bangles, and two Fairy Rings.  Stock up on Lucid Potions and Angel Curios.  Divine Halberds and transmute into Poison Crystals.  If you do not have any Tomes of Alchemy left, teach both Lorenta and Mystina Poison Blow (you have to transmute a Stone Torch to get the second one) and set it as their attack spells.

Get into a fight with the first set of Vanir.  Use a Tome of Alchemy and pray for a Might Reinforce.  If you don’t have one, try and get one to pop out by first Poison Blow on one of them, but time it so both Arngrim and Valkyrie attack too, so you can have a chance to knock it out of him.  Poison Blow the other Vanir to win.

Once you have Might Reinforce, avoid all other battles until Bloodbane.  One note about Might Reinforce – this coupled with Sap Guard roughly triples the physical damage that you do.  This is a big deal, especially in the final Loki battle.

Character Setups (note, both Reinforces go on Mystina)

Valkyrie: Valkyrie Favor, Power Bangle, Angel Curio
Arngrim: Bahamut Tear, Power Bangle, Angel Curio
Lorenta: Ether Scepter, Magic Bangle, Angel Curio, Mystic Cross
Mystina: Ether Scepter, Magic Bangle, Fairy Ring.  Put in Circle Position.

Turn 1: Valkyrie and Arngrim Lucid Potion Mystina and Lorenta.  With the three Angel Curios, the only one who can die is Mystina.
Turn 2: Revive Mystina if necessary, Lucid Potion everyone else.  If you have a spare, Spell Reinforce with Mystina.
Turn 3: Poison Crystals with Valkyrie, Arngrim, Sap Guard with Lorenta.  Might/Spell Reinforce with Mystina.
Turn 4: Poison Crystals with Valkyrie, Arngrim, and Lorenta.  Sacred Javelin with Mystina.
Turn 5: PWS chain from hell with two Celestial Stars.

Equip Valkyrie with Levantine.  Stock up on Angel Curios and Lucid Potions if necessary (convert Valkyrie Favor to MP if needed).  Re-equip Lorenta and Mystina with Ether Scepters if Necessary.  Fight Fenrir.

Character Setup changes from before:

Valkyrie: Levantine
Lorenta: Switch attack spell to Fire Lance

Turn 1: Valkyrie and Arngrim Lucid Potion Mystina and Lorenta.  With the three Angel Curios, the only one who can die is Mystina.
Turn 2: Valkyrie and Arngrim Lucid Potion themselves, Mystina casts Spell Reinforce, Lorenta casts Sap Guard.
Turn 3: Poison Crystals from Valkyrie, Arngrim, and Lorenta.  Mystina casts Might Reinforce.
Turn 4: Poison Crystals from Valkyrie, Arngrim, and Lorenta.  Mystina casts Sacred Javelin.
Turn 5: Repeat Turn 4 (if necessary).
Turn 6: PWS chain: Arngrim, Valkyrie, Lorenta.  Win.

Note on Ether Scepters: Up to this point, we will have used 4 castings of Great Magic.  We only need one Ether Scepter for the final Loki battle.  Even with a piddly Ruby staff for one of the mages is enough to get a 4 PWS chain on Loki, and putting Valkyrie last with both Might Reinforce and Sap Guard means that he should go down.  This is the real reason why I think Might Reinforce is necessary.  It’s to cover your butt in case you only have one Ether Scepter for the final fight.  The chance all four of your Ether Scepters will break is 0.81%  The chance of having only one left is 7.56%  That means you have a 91.63% chance of having 2 or more Ether Scepters for the final fight.  Pretty good I’d say.

Loki strategy is up in the air and is the least hard of all the fights.
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I want to elaborate on the Seal/Eval rating juggling to avoid the C ending just to make sure I am clear.

It seems that the C ending *cannot* be triggered without first getting Freya's warning.

This means that even if you enter Sacred Phase 7-8 (or 6-7) with 0 Evaluation rating, you will still not trigger the C ending because you have not yet been warned.

Now, let's look at what we have to work with in Chapters 4 and 5.

To trigger the A ending, we need to:

Meet Brahms (-10 Eval)
Recruit Mystina (-15 Eval)
Recruit Lucian (-2 Eval, I theorize)
Transfer Lucian (+12 Eval)
Visit Weeping Lily Meadow (No effect on Eval)

I looked at my Evaluation rating in Chapter 5 in my latest run, having never removed the Nibelungen Ring.  It was at 51, as I wrote earlier.  We need to keep this above 26 in order to avoid a warning from Freya.

Essentially, it means that you cannot both meet Brahms and recruit Mystina before you have recruited Lucian (51-15-10-2 = 24), even if you transfer two artifacts to Odin.

This also means that you essentially have to transfer Lucian right after you recruit him.

Any of the following orders would work:

Brahms (51-10 = 41)
Recruit Lucian (41-2 = 39)
Transfer Lucian (39+12 = 53)
Recruit Mystina (53-15 = 38)

or

Recruit Lucian
Brahms
Transfer Lucian
Recruit Mystina

or

Recruit Mystina
Recruit Lucian
Transfer Lucian
Brahms
spread the dirt to the populace
Wow, highly impressive work!  Never understood how Eval works like that, and probably nobody else did either.

Just a couple nitpicks:

1. Against Elder Vampire, you want to kill the two dragons on the first turn.  Reduces the time spent on enemy attacks.

2. As we have mentioned earlier, it may be possible to manipulate the Caves of Oblivion so that you can grab the Ether Scepter from there in Ch.4.  This would most certainly be quicker than the path in the tower, but it may involve resetting the game (which would be an obvious no-no).

The rest sounds awesome, though.

So you're saying that I could still go to Brahms in Ch.4 and make it through the game this way?  In that case, I would just use a Tome on the 2 Dragon Zombies, and save the other two for Asgard (in hopes of knocking out a Might Reinforce).

You still have not sufficiently explained how we expect to survive Loki without Auto Item, though.  That's my one remaining hang-up about this whole thing.  Even with max Guts and Auto Item, I've died here before...

Thanks a lot once again! =)

-Josh
Hello!
This topc has suddendly regained something.
Weeeeee!
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The Loki battle is pretty easy, and you can beat him on Turn 3 (this is the second battle after the cutscene).

For this battle, you will be relying on Guts and Angel Curios to keep you alive.  Because that's all you're counting on, you need to kill him quickly.  That means that Lucid Potions are a no no, since they will stop him only from attacking.  He can still cast spells and kill you.

This is why Might Reinforce is such a big deal.  It allows Valkyrie (and Arngrim, but mainly Valkyrie) to do massive massive damage to Loki. 

This is what you can do:

Valkyrie: Glance Reviver, Angel Curio, Power Bangle
Arngrim: Levantine, Angel Curio, Angel Curio
Lorenta: Ether Scepter (if you have only one, give this to Mystina), Angel Curio, Angel Curio (or Fairy Ring).  Mystic Cross (or Poison Blow if you're going with Fairy Ring)
Mystina: Ether Scepter, Fairy Ring, Angel Curio, Mystic Cross

This means that Lorenta and Arngrim cannot die until both Angel Curios are broken, and that is very unlikely in a fight this short.

Turn 1: Might Reinforce, Sap Guard, attack with Arngrim and Valkyrie.
Turn 2: Spell Reinforce, Poison Blow (crystal), attack with Arngrim and Valkyrie.
Turn 3: PWS chain, probably Arngrim, then 2 Celestial Stars, then Valkyrie if you have 2 Ether Scepters.  If not, then Lorenta, Arngrim, Mystina, Valkyrie.

Give it a shot.  You might have to tweak some things here and there to make you more comfortable (one of the things I've had a lot of luck with is putting a Fairy Ring on Valkyrie, and PWSing twice -- once in Turn 1 and again in Turn 2).
Hello!
Forget 1 Ether Skepter and get the Wand Of Apocalypse...its so easy to get...i dont understand why you do not consider trying.
It would take less than 2 minutes to get....and will save you a huge 10 minutes on Blood Bane and Fenrir.
Hello!
Or even better...save that Ether wand just in case the other breaks.
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OH OH OH OH OH, waiiiiit a minute.

Ok, you're going to like this news.  I was completely confused about the various recruitments affecting Evaluation rating.  Scrap that entire section.

Here's the real story when I re-investigated some of my saves.

I had 51 Evaluation in Chapter 4 before going to Tower of Lezard Valeth (and I had only done Weeping Lily Meadow, which I confirmed to have nothing to do with Evaluation rating).  Before going into Sacred Phase 4-5, I transferred two artifacts.  When Chapter 5 started, I had 27 Evaluation, just enough to clear the C ending barrier and complete all my tasks!

WEEEEEE!  So it's pretty much confirmed.  You don't need to do anything in Chapter 4 or 5 in any particular order.  You just *have* to make sure that you transfer Grimrist and Sealed Box before going on to Chapter 5.

Good news, eh? Smiley
spread the dirt to the populace
I'm not happy with the fact that only Lenneth gets a Bangle with that strat, but if you can really take him out that quickly I guess it shouldn't be a problem.

One more neat little nitpick I forgot to mention last time: In Lezard's tower, it's actually a little faster to run out and back in the elevators at each stop.

All in all, great news!  I'll test all this together very, very soon.

-Josh
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Honestly?  Don't worry about the bangle.  You might actually do even more damage with a Fairy Ring, because Lenneth will get to PWS twice in 3 turns.

This is why you think Might Reinforce doesn't matter.  Might Reinforce increases physical damage with a multiplier of like 2.5 whereas Power Bangle only has a multiplier of 1.3

Still think Might Reinforce is optional?
Hello!
.....

Why does no one respond to my replies?
Why am i ignored?
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Great finds on how to avoid C ending and everything else!

Quote:
Why does no one respond to my replies?
Why am i ignored?

Arianrod seems to be unnecessary now, thanks to Wally's strategies. If it's unnecessary, it's just a waste of time.

Quote:
Honestly?  Don't worry about the bangle.  You might actually do even more damage with a Fairy Ring, because Lenneth will get to PWS twice in 3 turns.

This is why you think Might Reinforce doesn't matter.  Might Reinforce increases physical damage with a multiplier of like 2.5 whereas Power Bangle only has a multiplier of 1.3

Still think Might Reinforce is optional?

Before I say anything, I want to make it clear that you are probably right and I am wrong because you have tested this and I have not. You are just making it sound like anyone who questions this is an idiot, when I think it's a fair question.

By your own admission, you should fight Vanir and "pray" for MR, and that MR is necessary to "cover your butt" if you have only 1 Ether Scepters left, which as you said is highly unlikely. This, combined with your description of the first two fights, where the fighters have subpar weapons anyway, would make it optional by definition. If this is incorrect, and not getting MR would actually take longer, I apologize.

Nobody is arguing that MR isn't better than Sap Guard or Power Bangle, but those two are faster to get. Also in the case of Power Bangle, it's not apples and oranges anyway since one is a spell (with everything that entails) and one is equipment.

Anyway, my point is that if you're able to kill on the same turns anyway, which sounds possible to me, it doesn't matter what MR's multiplier is, it's optional. Trust me, nobody thinks "MR is optional because Sap Guard/Power Bangle are so good" or anything stupid like that. The goal is to be as fast as possible, not be the best gamer or whatever.

Oh and I don't think you were actually suggesting this, but Fairy Ring for multiple Nibelung Valesti's sounds kinda slow since each one takes 30 secs. Of course, if you could kill on a faster turn, maybe not, since you could skip watching some animations.



I looked into getting Ether Scepter from COO and it looks unfeasible. Look here, and also at the link referenced inside that thread. Without the benefit of saving, the best you could do is know which of the 4 COO order types you have (by when you get Solde in ch1), and then whether or not there may be an ES in the ch4 COO (or if you're unlucky, the COO in ch1). I don't know the probability of ES or whether it would be worth exploring a COO even if you know the type is the kind that might have an ES. But still, I'd like to know the information that guy posted, on easy and normal, and perhaps for ch4.

Anyway, so given that, the only things that I think it would be worth trying to get in the entire run are:
- Guts from Solde
- Ether Scepter (and Timer Ring?) from Tower of Lezard

If anything else turns out to be better (Attack Pow or Might Reinforce), they can be added.

As for spells, in case someone is wondering, here are all the spells the mages come with. It works out quite well. Wink I think you also get Fire Lance when you send Jelanda FWIW. This could make it possible to start the PWS earlier by equipping Fire Lance with both against Fenrir.

Lorenta:
- Fire Lance
- Mystic Cross
- Heal
- Sap Guard
- Invoke Feather

Mystina:
- Dark Savior
- Mystic Cross
- Sacred Javelin
- Normalize
- Sap Guard
spread the dirt to the populace
Yes, we definitely want Timer Ring for a couple places.  One is the last room before the boss teleporter in the tower, which is packed with enemies, and the other is the Wraith on Asgard Hill.

And here's the thing Kev:  If you can take out Loki in 3 turns, that is easily worth going a bit out of the way for.  Generally, it's right after that point where the curios start breaking and the fight degenerates into a luckfest waiting game.  This is also why multiple Lenneth supers is a Very Good Thing, no matter how much time it eats up.  I will have 2 Tomes for Asgard, and should be able to snatch a Might Reinforce that way.

I just started the game again on Normal, so I'll run through this and see how it all works out.

-Josh
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Well, you're right, Enhasa -- my previous post probably sounded a little snotty, and I apologize if that's how it came across.

The large point I was trying to make is that the Loki fight should be the easiest of the three battles.  It should be the shortest and the biggest slugfest.

Now let's talk about Might Reinforce.  Now that I think about it, it's probably more essential than I first told you.

First of all, the fact that it is a spell is a bonus rather than a detriment.  The problem with equipment, and the bangles, in particular, is that you have to sacrifice durability in order to use them.  For instance, if you just count on Guts and Auto Item to keep your party alive, there is a very VERY good chance that you will be wiped out.  However, equipping Angel Curios means that as long as they don't break, the character *cannot* die.  *cannot*  This is a much better situation, in my opinion.  Furthermore, you are able to refresh Angel Curios for every battle.  With Guts and Auto-Item, you're just working with straight percentages, and given enough turns, it will result in a party wipe, because essentially every attack by the last 3 bosses are full-party killers.

So, getting damage from non-accessories is a big big plus.

Now let's look at Might Reinforce itself.  Let's assume, to be on the conservative side, that Might Reinforce only doubles your physical damage (2x multiplier).  The description of a bangle only provides 1.3x multiplier.

In the final Loki Battle, the one that Josh had a question about, Lenneth has a 6000 ATK sword, the Glance Reviver.  Loki has 3600 RDM.

In case you aren't aware, this is how damage is calculated.

Damage = (ATK - RDM + Strength) * multiplier * number of attacks

If different attacks have different multipliers, then you can factor those out and do the math there.

Anyhow, let's compare some numbers.  Because we are only comparing Lenneth to herself, we can safely ignore the Strength part of the equation.  We'll call the result Raw Damage.

First, let's consider Lenneth's normal attacks (4 hits) without Power Bangle or Might Reinforce. 

Raw Damage = (6000 - 3600) * 1 * 4 attacks = 9600

Lenneth with Power Bangle

Raw Damage = (2400) * 1.3 * 4 = 12480

Lenneth with Might Reinforce

Raw Damage = (2400) * 2 * 4 = 19200

Now, let's compare her PWS damage.  Her NV3 can be considered 1 attack with a 13x multiplier.

Lenneth without Power Bangle or Might Reinforce

Raw Damage = (2400) * 13 * 1 = 31200

Lenneth with Power Bangle

Raw Damage = (2400) * 13 * 1.3  * 1 = 40560

Lenneth with Might Reinforce

Raw Damage = (2400) * 13 * 2 * 1 = 62400

Ok, no surprise, Might Reinforce is the best.

However, now consider the following sets of calculations.  If we can agree that Lenneth should have *at least* 1 Angel Curio equipped, then she can either equip a Power Bangle or a Fairy Ring in that second slot.  Let's compare the numbers across 3 Turns.  Both will be Might Reinforced.

Angel Curio + Fairy Ring setup:
Turn 1: 4 hits at 19200, PWS at 62400, total = 81600
Turn 2: 4 hits at 19200, total = 100800
Turn 3: 4 hits at 19200, PWS at 62400, total = 182400

Angel Curio + Power Bangle:
Turn 1: 4 hits at 24960
Turn 2: 4 hits at 24960, total = 49920
Turn 3: 4 hits at 24960, PWS at 81120, total = 156000

The Fairy Ring setup does more damage.  Also keep in mind that the difference between these numbers will increase once we factor in Lenneth's strength and Sap Guard.

I mention this because I think Josh is not able to reliably kill Loki in 3 turns, whereas a Fairy Ring Lenneth most definitely can - her Raw Damage alone claims nearly 50% of Loki's HP.  Considering the additional damage due to Sap Guard, better PWS placement, and factoring in Lenneth's strength, Loki should be blown to bits.

I understand that two NV3's could be really slow, but the thing is, it's an incredibly reliable killer.  The first NV3 doesn't knock Loki low enough for him to start spamming Dragon Orb, the second NV3 will kill him, and Loki will only have 3 turns to do anything, which is not enough to reliably punch through everyone's Angel Curios.

I mean, whichever one is faster is going to have to be tested, but suffice it to say, Power Bangle is the most optional piece of equipment in this battle, and I hope the arguments I've laid out clearly illustrate why I say that.
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As an addendum, I should mention that Might Reinforce actually applies its multiplier to ATK, I believe, so the calculations get a little bit tricky when factoring in Strength, etc. but the qualitative differences still stand.

Also, this explains MR's use in breaking enemy defense -- if it multiplied after RDM was subtracted from ATK, Arngrim would never be able to hurt Loki.  However, MR does apply to ATK, allowing Arngrim's Levantine (2200 ATK) to break the 3600 RDM barrier.