Valkyrie Profile

2006-11-05 07:39:33 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Ok, you have convinced me that MR is necessary for a turn 3 kill, and besides, it's faster to get than Attack Pow.

Josh, what are you gonna do with that final Tome? Or are you just going to keep it just in case MR doesn't drop? (That's my guess anyway.)

Wally

2006-11-05 09:44:05 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Hmm, ok, after I inquired with some people more in the know about the damage calculation order, I had it garbled. let me clarify and run the new numbers, just to see if MR makes a difference. Also, I'm going to assume that Sap Guard lowers Loki's RDM to 600 and that Valkyrie's Strength is 165 (what I had last run), just so I can actually post real and not raw damage.

Ok, the actual equation is:

[(weapon + strength)*Bangle*MR)-RDM]*Attack Multiplier*Number of attacks

Then, if applicable, that is multiplied by Hit and PWS bonuses, which I will ignore for now.

Basic Calculations (all include Sap Guard):

Plain:

Lenneth's 4 hits = 22260
PWS = 72345

Power Bangle:

Lenneth's 4 hits = 29658
PWS = 96388

Might Reinforce

Lenneth's normal 4 hit = 34590
PWS = 112417

Might Reinforce and Power Bangle

Lenneth's normal 4 hit = 45687
PWS = 148482

Now for some three turn totals, assuming double PWS for Fairy Ring Lenneth.

Power Bangle = 185632
Might Reinforce = 216187
Might Reinforce and Power Bangle = 285543
Might Reinforce and Fairy Ring = 328604

So although my numbers were off before, this shows that Valkyrie can almost be the sole damager to Loki, which raises an interesting possibility of a Turn 2 (!!) kill.

Picture this: Valkyrie gets a Power Bangle and Angel Curio

Turn 1: Might Reinforce, Sap Guard, Arngrim and Valkyrie attack and PWS.
Turn 2: Arngrim (or a mage without an Ether Scepter) uses a Charge Break on Valkyrie (if the Charge Break cannot be used because Valkyrie is too low on health, use a mage to give her an Elixir), then Magic and then PWS with Valkyrie in the second or third spot. Win.

Total Valkyrie damage = 434025 (ball park).

Hmm, ok, after I inquired with some people more in the know about the damage calculation order, I had it garbled.  let me clarify and run the new numbers, just to see if MR makes a difference.  Also, I'm going to assume that Sap Guard lowers Loki's RDM to 600 and that Valkyrie's Strength is 165 (what I had last run), just so I can actually post real and not raw damage.

Ok, the actual equation is:

[(weapon + strength)*Bangle*MR)-RDM]*Attack Multiplier*Number of attacks

Then, if applicable, that is multiplied by Hit and PWS bonuses, which I will ignore for now.

Basic Calculations (all include Sap Guard):

Plain:

Lenneth's 4 hits = 22260
PWS = 72345

Power Bangle:

Lenneth's 4 hits = 29658
PWS = 96388

Might Reinforce

Lenneth's normal 4 hit = 34590
PWS = 112417

Might Reinforce and Power Bangle

Lenneth's normal 4 hit = 45687
PWS = 148482

Now for some three turn totals, assuming double PWS for Fairy Ring Lenneth.

Power Bangle = 185632
Might Reinforce = 216187
Might Reinforce and Power Bangle = 285543
Might Reinforce and Fairy Ring = 328604

So although my numbers were off before, this shows that Valkyrie can almost be the sole damager to Loki, which raises an interesting possibility of a Turn 2 (!!) kill.

Picture this:  Valkyrie gets a Power Bangle and Angel Curio

Turn 1: Might Reinforce, Sap Guard, Arngrim and Valkyrie attack and PWS.
Turn 2: Arngrim (or a mage without an Ether Scepter) uses a Charge Break on Valkyrie (if the Charge Break cannot be used because Valkyrie is too low on health, use a mage to give her an Elixir), then Magic and then PWS with Valkyrie in the second or third spot.  Win.

Total Valkyrie damage = 434025 (ball park).

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-11-05 10:08:29 am

2006-11-05 10:07:26 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Where do you find people "more in the know" anyway? The best source of information I know about is this.

Oh and turn 2 Loki kill would be almost as brokesauce as turn 1 Iseria Queen kill. Shocked

Wally

2006-11-05 07:23:55 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

The guys the RPGDL do a lot of testing and stat gathering on various RPGs, and Valkyrie Profile is one of the more studied ones Smiley

They've been incredibly helpful.

Anyhow, I should note that if we're going for a Turn 2 kill, to be on the safe side, one of the mages (the one that doesn't use the Elixir) should have Fire Storm as the attack spell. This is solely to make sure that Valkyrie can perform a PWS with only a mage to support (Valkyrie only generates 54 energy, I think, by herself).

Wally

2006-11-05 08:11:50 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Gah, the ballpark figure is more like 388338, which is cutting it a bit close. It should still be good, especially if Arngrim PWSes too on the first round, but Tongue

that would be pretty awesome if it worked! (testing)

Wally

2006-11-05 09:10:44 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Ok, so I ran a couple tests on the final Loki battle. It seems that the following will work for a 2 Turn kill.

Valkyrie: Glance Reviver, Angel Curio, Angel Curio
Arngrim: Levantine, Angel Curio, Power Bangle
Lorenta: Ether Scepter, Angel Curio, Angel Curio, Mystic Cross
Mystina: Ether Scepter, Fairy Ring, Angel Curio, Mystic Cross

Mystina is put in the circle position, and Arngrim is put in either X or triangle position.

The multitude of Angel Curios is to account for the 3 "free" turns that Loki gets before the cinematic.

Turn 1: Sap Guard, Might Reinforce, PWS: Arngrim, Valkyrie = half life Loki
Turn 2: Arngrim Charge Breaks Valkyrie. PWS: Celestial Star, Celestial Star, Valkyrie. Win.

There are two situations that I still need to test.

Putting Valkyrie in the 3rd PWS spot will safely kill Loki. I'm not sure what happens if you're down to just a mage and Valkyrie. So I have to test that.

Since you can't Charge Break Valkyrie if she has just Guts'ed, one of the mages needs to use an Elixir first, which makes the second turn a little dicey (not that it matters too too much, because Loki will be dead Turn 3 for sure).

However, I do want to test what happens if we remove Guts from Valkyrie so she can only Angel Curio. Loki gets 5 tries to kill her, so the probability that the first 4 turns breaks at most 1 of the Angel Curios is...
(Calculates)...

65% Hmmmm, not sure I like those odds.

Ok, so I think we go with the setup I outlined above, which pretty much guarantees a Turn 3 kill, and if we're lucky, a Turn 2 kill. If that's the case, then I think it might even be worth swapping in an Angel Curio for Arnie's Power Bangle!

Ok, so I ran a couple tests on the final Loki battle.  It seems that the following will work for a 2 Turn kill.

Valkyrie: Glance Reviver, Angel Curio, Angel Curio
Arngrim: Levantine, Angel Curio, Power Bangle
Lorenta: Ether Scepter, Angel Curio, Angel Curio, Mystic Cross
Mystina: Ether Scepter, Fairy Ring, Angel Curio, Mystic Cross

Mystina is put in the circle position, and Arngrim is put in either X or triangle position.

The multitude of Angel Curios is to account for the 3 "free" turns that Loki gets before the cinematic.

Turn 1: Sap Guard, Might Reinforce, PWS: Arngrim, Valkyrie = half life Loki
Turn 2: Arngrim Charge Breaks Valkyrie.  PWS: Celestial Star, Celestial Star, Valkyrie.  Win.

There are two situations that I still need to test.

Putting Valkyrie in the 3rd PWS spot will safely kill Loki.  I'm not sure what happens if you're down to just a mage and Valkyrie.  So I have to test that.

Since you can't Charge Break Valkyrie if she has just Guts'ed, one of the mages needs to use an Elixir first, which makes the second turn a little dicey (not that it matters too too much, because Loki will be dead Turn 3 for sure).

However, I do want to test what happens if we remove Guts from Valkyrie so she can only Angel Curio.  Loki gets 5 tries to kill her, so the probability that the first 4 turns breaks at most 1 of the Angel Curios is...
(Calculates)...

65%  Hmmmm, not sure I like those odds.

Ok, so I think we go with the setup I outlined above, which pretty much guarantees a Turn 3 kill, and if we're lucky, a Turn 2 kill.  If that's the case, then I think it might even be worth swapping in an Angel Curio for Arnie's Power Bangle!

Wally

2006-11-05 10:37:12 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Also as a corrective reminder:

You might want to do your Divining before triggering the A ending sequence at Weeping Lily Meadow.

This way, you can put the Bahamut Tear on Arngrim for an easy victory against Hrist. Without it, I had to PWS with Arnie, and that's just slower than it needs to be Cheesy

Enhasa

2006-11-06 06:35:37 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I knew RPGDL did a lot of that kind of thing, and I even visited the site some a long time ago (enough to know that it died and came back a couple times I think). I just never found the entire concept of "who would win in a fight?" very interesting for anything, like comic book heroes or whatever. I'd rather see game knowledge get applied to something more practical, like speedrunning. Of course, the RPGDL people are very interested in what they do and think it's good fun, and might think speedrunning is boring. I gotta support what they do because it would be hypocritical otherwise; we're all video game nerds after all.

Wally

2006-11-06 03:30:33 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Right. I, personally, would probably participate in the RPGDL more if I actually had played more of the games that they reference and thus, able to vote on more matches.

Even so, I visit primarily to get recommendations on games I should consider playing and to get detailed statistical/game mechanic information.

Its purpose aside, the guys at RPGDL go to great lengths to understand the various game mechanics, best items/equipment, best skills/spells in order to more accurately represent the different characters in duels. It's kind of a perfect source for speed running though, of course, they probably won't have specific suggestions about speed runs, a lot of the information they have is very useful.

The latest instance, they provided me with a more accurate damage calculation equation, which helped me develop the possibility of a Turn 2 Loki kill. Also, Captain K's Walkthrough and Bestiary are both RPGDL products (in actuality if not in name). This walkthrough has been a great resource for ideas (even those that didn't make the latest version of the speedrun strat), most particularly the notion that Ether Scepters rule and Sacred Javelin is *the most* damaging non-GM magic.

Anyhow, I just had this horrifying thought -- are the levels in Normal such that your characters will survive hits from bosses on Asgard Hill? That would suck because then they would all be frozen all the time or something Tongue

In any case, let me know the results of your tests (obviously these strats worked for me, but you're the one playing and recording, so you're going to have to go with what works for you) and perhaps we can refine them further, but it's looking like the A ending speedrun is nearing the point of almost complete efficiency Smiley

Right.  I, personally, would probably participate in the RPGDL more if I actually had played more of the games that they reference and thus, able to vote on more matches.

Even so, I visit primarily to get recommendations on games I should consider playing and to get detailed statistical/game mechanic information.

Its purpose aside, the guys at RPGDL go to great lengths to understand the various game mechanics, best items/equipment, best skills/spells in order to more accurately represent the different characters in duels.  It's kind of a perfect source for speed running though, of course, they probably won't have specific suggestions about speed runs, a lot of the information they have is very useful.

The latest instance, they provided me with a more accurate damage calculation equation, which helped me develop the possibility of a Turn 2 Loki kill.  Also, Captain K's Walkthrough and Bestiary are both RPGDL products (in actuality if not in name).  This walkthrough has been a great resource for ideas (even those that didn't make the latest version of the speedrun strat), most particularly the notion that Ether Scepters rule and Sacred Javelin is *the most* damaging non-GM magic.

Anyhow, I just had this horrifying thought -- are the levels in Normal such that your characters will survive hits from bosses on Asgard Hill?  That would suck because then they would all be frozen all the time or something :P

In any case, let me know the results of your tests (obviously these strats worked for me, but you're the one playing and recording, so you're going to have to go with what works for you) and perhaps we can refine them further, but it's looking like the A ending speedrun is nearing the point of almost complete efficiency :)

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-11-07 03:08:14 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Well Wally, on Normal you may or may not be able to survive attacks. With no armor, I would imagine not...

Also, not sure if you knew this, but the start of the Bloodbane & Fenrir fights is a bit random. Either the boss gets 1st attack and you'll have 0 CT the next turn, or you'll get 1st action with everyone at 1 CT. Obviously the latter is more desirable for speed, but at least it doesn't drastically affect strategy.

I have a philosophy paper due on Wednesday, so I'll likely make more progress here after that.

Thanks once again! =)

-Josh

Wally

2006-11-07 07:22:21 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Yup. I assumed for strategic purposes that you start with everyone at CT 1 because it's more obvious what you do when you go second and your mages can act.

Good luck on the paper. No worries. If I think of anything/do more tests, I'll post them here, but I'm beginning to think that we've got it finalized pretty well.

Enhasa

2006-11-07 07:34:12 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Wally, did you check the news page? Tongue

Wally

2006-11-07 07:44:16 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Oooo, grats, guys Smiley

Downloading now!

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-11-07 08:26:27 am

2006-11-07 08:25:16 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Well, I guess I should post this if I've got it.

Me and Mike both independently timed as 1:03:28, so that's what it really is. I timed tri-Ace Fanboy's the same way and got 1:07:12, which is slightly faster than the 1:07:22 he gave himself.

Some things that lose time:
~45 secs: Sap Power/Guard not appearing after Tome
12 secs: having to redo that one room
~8 secs: Lenneth dying. death animation (3 secs) + win at the end with poison crystals (30 secs) - Nibelung Valesti (25 secs)

Of course, just passing the turn with Lenneth would have been best of all since NV would be skipped, wouldn't have to use charge break, wouldn't have to watch her die. But uh, it all got in there in the name of suspense! I guess.

Some notes:
- Thunder Gem + Flare Gem vs Elder Vampire works, due to no weapons and attack trust (thanks tri-Ace Fanboy)
- can hit down to wraparound in menu to get to say, Tome faster
- maybe should have Tome'd the 2nd Fires Vanir, and run from Mithril Golem instead
- upgrade different skills for Jelanda. Like, let's say with fake numbers, instead of ending with levels 8 and 2, end with 6 and 6 to use up CP better. (thanks Mike Uyama)

Of course, probably the correct way to go is just to not bother with all the INT + 1's anyway.

It's hard to be too critical of anything because of course it's single segment. But not only that, running this game would make you want to bash yourself if you, for example, watched through the entire intro, only to get very unlucky with SC's in ch1. Things like that. And of course this is quite the awesome run anyway. I knew to prepare myself for the level of quality of the platforming and menu manipulation, but I still underestimated it. Tongue

Well, I guess I should post this if I've got it.

Me and Mike both independently timed as 1:03:28, so that's what it really is. I timed tri-Ace Fanboy's the same way and got 1:07:12, which is slightly faster than the 1:07:22 he gave himself.

Some things that lose time:
~45 secs: Sap Power/Guard not appearing after Tome
12 secs: having to redo that one room
~8 secs: Lenneth dying. death animation (3 secs) + win at the end with poison crystals (30 secs) - Nibelung Valesti (25 secs)

Of course, just passing the turn with Lenneth would have been best of all since NV would be skipped, wouldn't have to use charge break, wouldn't have to watch her die. But uh, it all got in there in the name of suspense! I guess.

Some notes:
- Thunder Gem + Flare Gem vs Elder Vampire works, due to no weapons and attack trust (thanks tri-Ace Fanboy)
- can hit down to wraparound in menu to get to say, Tome faster
- maybe should have Tome'd the 2nd Fires Vanir, and run from Mithril Golem instead
- upgrade different skills for Jelanda. Like, let's say with fake numbers, instead of ending with levels 8 and 2, end with 6 and 6 to use up CP better. (thanks Mike Uyama)

Of course, probably the correct way to go is just to not bother with all the INT + 1's anyway.

It's hard to be too critical of anything because of course it's single segment. But not only that, running this game would make you want to bash yourself if you, for example, watched through the entire intro, only to get very unlucky with SC's in ch1. Things like that. And of course this is quite the awesome run anyway. I knew to prepare myself for the level of quality of the platforming and menu manipulation, but I still underestimated it. :P

getter77

2006-11-07 04:31:43 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Very slick run. I'll definitey be on the lookout for any other endings/difficulties that pop up for this game.

This supports my theory that any game that winds up with at least one MASSIVE topic at SDA winds up with at least one awesome run every single time.

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-11-08 03:56:50 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Hey guys, quick post here:

It may actually be faster to use tri-Ace Fanboy's poison crystal strategy for B ending, with some refinement. Visit Forest of Woe just for the two Tomes, and use one on weak Vanir to drop Guard Reinforce -> Spell Reinforce for major crystal damage. As before, everyone will level up to 25+, so we shouldn't need Guts. I am wondering whether we should bother with lucid potions to prevent him from acting on some turns, but I would think it's more efficient to just attack him right away.

Gonna test this out tomorrow!

-Josh

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-11-08 07:44:39 am

2006-11-08 06:51:10 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

What I don't understand, is why TAF doesn't get Spell Reinforce if it would help out crystals so much. I mean, it's segmented, there's really no reason not to.

And if you try this out, who would you fight? ~~You'll be gaining more experience since you only have to divide it among 3 people.~~ What I would do is: Tome a blue Vanir for GR -> SR, run from the Fires Vanir, then Tome the Mithril Golem.

I know you don't like running, but it seriously is faster I think if you can run away in the first two tries, although I would need to test. Captain K says 70% run (I don't know if this is truly constant or depends on stats or enemies), so that would be 9% that you can't run away after 2 tries, and only 2.7% fail after 3 tries. Compare that to 70% that you run away immediately, and I'm pretty sure that running is the way to go. Or if that Wise Sorcerer really is crazy (PWS'ing you would take forever), you could just use 1 Poison Crystal, then run.

Edit: Oh and I'm thinking (and you'd probably prefer this too, all things equal), especially if you're not getting Belenus, it would be great to actually not have to SC in ch1 at all. Forest of Woe loses some of its point if you're only getting the Scepters. There's the one in Jotunheim you get now, that you wouldn't need anymore.

Maybe you could either go with just one Tome, on Easy, or do it on Normal, and get the one by the infamous AMR "boat" as well. Tongue

Double Edit: I just did some math and experience is actually not divided at all. I still don't think Belenus is too hot because it takes 5:35 to get him (36 secs to SC, 4 to fly to Lassen, recruitment takes 4:55).

What I don't understand, is why TAF doesn't get Spell Reinforce if it would help out crystals so much. I mean, it's segmented, there's really no reason not to.

And if you try this out, who would you fight? [s]You'll be gaining more experience since you only have to divide it among 3 people.[/s] What I would do is: Tome a blue Vanir for GR -> SR, run from the Fires Vanir, then Tome the Mithril Golem.

I know you don't like running, but it seriously is faster I think if you can run away in the first two tries, although I would need to test. Captain K says 70% run (I don't know if this is truly constant or depends on stats or enemies), so that would be 9% that you can't run away after 2 tries, and only 2.7% fail after 3 tries. Compare that to 70% that you run away immediately, and I'm pretty sure that running is the way to go. Or if that Wise Sorcerer really is crazy (PWS'ing you would take forever), you could just use 1 Poison Crystal, then run.

Edit: Oh and I'm thinking (and you'd probably prefer this too, all things equal), especially if you're not getting Belenus, it would be great to actually not have to SC in ch1 at all. Forest of Woe loses some of its point if you're only getting the Scepters. There's the one in Jotunheim you get now, that you wouldn't need anymore.

Maybe you could either go with just one Tome, on Easy, or do it on Normal, and get the one by the infamous AMR "boat" as well. :P

Double Edit: I just did some math and experience is actually not divided at all. I still don't think Belenus is too hot because it takes 5:35 to get him (36 secs to SC, 4 to fly to Lassen, recruitment takes 4:55).

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-11-08 08:39:20 am

2006-11-08 08:37:13 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I just did the math and it supports the Easy route (go 3x exp I guess). That is, knock Guard Reinforce out and win with Poison Crystal against blue Vanir. Run from Fires Vanir. Then use your only Tome on Mithril Golem.

On Easy, you end the Elder Vampire fight at Lenneth (and Arngrim) 11800 (3), Jelanda 6800 (2). Assuming that the only fight with blue Vanir is a 2x Vanir, 1x Wise Sorcerer fight, you get 51000 exp. This puts you at Lenneth 62800 (9), Jelanda 57800 (9). Using your Tome on the Mithril Golem gives 675000 for Lenneth 737800 (23), Jelanda 732800 (23).

On Normal, you actually don't have Dragon Servants in the Elder Vampire fight, but since Hard is 70% of Normal in exp, it's still better of course. After Elder Vampire you have Lenneth 8000 (3), Jelanda 3000 (2). This time from the 2x blue Vanir, 1x Wise Sorcerer you get 37400 to get Lenneth 45400 (8 ), 40400 (8 ), which looks pretty dumb. Using your extra Tome on the Mithril Golem gives 225000. This brings the totals up to Lenneth 270400 (17), Jelanda 265400 (16).

Anyway, this is how I think it would work.

I just did the math and it supports the Easy route (go 3x exp I guess). That is, knock Guard Reinforce out and win with Poison Crystal against blue Vanir. Run from Fires Vanir. Then use your only Tome on Mithril Golem.

On Easy, you end the Elder Vampire fight at Lenneth (and Arngrim) 11800 (3), Jelanda 6800 (2). Assuming that the only fight with blue Vanir is a 2x Vanir, 1x Wise Sorcerer fight, you get 51000 exp. This puts you at Lenneth 62800 (9), Jelanda 57800 (9). Using your Tome on the Mithril Golem gives 675000 for Lenneth 737800 (23), Jelanda 732800 (23).

On Normal, you actually don't have Dragon Servants in the Elder Vampire fight, but since Hard is 70% of Normal in exp, it's still better of course. After Elder Vampire you have Lenneth 8000 (3), Jelanda 3000 (2). This time from the 2x blue Vanir, 1x Wise Sorcerer you get 37400 to get Lenneth 45400 (8 ), 40400 (8 ), which looks pretty dumb. Using your extra Tome on the Mithril Golem gives 225000. This brings the totals up to Lenneth 270400 (17), Jelanda 265400 (16).

Anyway, this is how I think it would work.

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2006-11-08 08:52:17 am

2006-11-08 08:41:57 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Alright, Kevin, here's the deal:

I think the 2 Ethers in Jotunheim may actually be the way to go on this. Use a tome on 4 weak Vanir, to get the best chance of dropping the spell, and the other on Golem. I will need my party at level 25 for this, so we may have to beat one of the Fires enemies (which are 3 strong Vanir + sorceror BTW). I'm fine with running from Fires enemies, but you'll definitely need to kill the sorceror or else your run is over.

The amount of crystals gained from a tome is somewhat random BTW. Not sure exactly how that will affect things.

Yes, the 2nd Ether is out of the way, but I think fighting a battle without getting the chest would be easily worse.

Enhasa

2006-11-08 09:00:14 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Shit, I tried to come online but I guess I just missed you. My wireless was down and I didn't want to bother copying all my logs back to the desktop to sync everything.

Um, actually I can't tell for certain if you saw my last post when you were writing yours. I'm actually guessing not.

Anyway, I'm an idiot, because I must have forgotten Jotunheim has 2 Ether Scepters about 5 times by now. Go Captain K and your typo that doesn't say Ether Scepter x2 in the items found list for Jotunheim. Oh right, I am a bum for not telling him that as well.

Well I forget exactly where it is, but I don't think it's out of the way, so getting it is probably quicker than knocking the GR out manually. The Poison Crystal time, knocking chest time, divining and equipping multi-hit weapons, unequipping the weapons for attack trust reasons, all that. Much cleaner and faster to just make the other Tome and use it, I think.

Looks like Forest of Woe (and by extension, SC at all, yay) is completely pointless this way. Have you actually tested if SR helps out Crystals? Because uh, even though it makes sense that it would, that would be silly if it turns out it doesn't. Tongue

Shit, I tried to come online but I guess I just missed you. My wireless was down and I didn't want to bother copying all my logs back to the desktop to sync everything.

Um, actually I can't tell for certain if you saw my last post when you were writing yours. I'm actually guessing not.

Anyway, I'm an idiot, because I must have forgotten Jotunheim has 2 Ether Scepters about 5 times by now. Go Captain K and your typo that doesn't say Ether Scepter x2 in the items found list for Jotunheim. Oh right, I am a bum for not telling him that as well.

Well I forget exactly where it is, but I don't think it's out of the way, so getting it is probably quicker than knocking the GR out manually. The Poison Crystal time, knocking chest time, divining and equipping multi-hit weapons, unequipping the weapons for attack trust reasons, all that. Much cleaner and faster to just make the other Tome and use it, I think.

Looks like Forest of Woe (and by extension, SC at all, yay) [i]is[/i] completely pointless this way. Have you actually tested if SR helps out Crystals? Because uh, even though it makes sense that it would, that would be silly if it turns out it doesn't. :P

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2006-11-08 09:06:10 am

2006-11-08 09:04:28 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Well, I believe Wally on this one, but tomorrow is serious testing day!

If this actually works, oh man would this run be easy now. Hardly any luck elements left, so it would not take me very long at all to record.

-Josh

Wally

2006-11-08 01:18:57 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

The only reason I stumbled upon OMG Spell Reinforce works on crystals is when I did one of my tests using Poison Crystals.

I had remembered that in TAF's run, Poison Crystals didn't do too much damage to Surt. So I planned to have my two mages cast spells, so I of course cast Spell Reinforce.

Only, I had Arngrim and Valkyrie use a round of poison crystals before I had cast SR. The second round, they did like 50% more damage and I thought, hey waaaait a minute...

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-11-09 01:14:48 am

spread the dirt to the populace

It's official: I will start recording a new B ending run. The details will not be revealed here...just have some patience! =)

Also, Spell Reinforce boosts crystals by 62.5% actually. I would assume this is how it works with spells and Might Reinforce as well, as this would explain why Sap Guard is less effective than Might.

-Josh

Wally

2006-11-09 03:02:38 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Josh, I suspect that where and how the Reinforces are applied in the damage equation will yield different % increases if you're just looking at damage.

If Spell Reinforce works like Might Reinforce, the damage calculations apply the damage multiplier to your attack power *before* taking into account enemy resistance.

For the following example, let's say that SR doubles your attack power.

For Magic Damage, I believe the following equation applies:

[(ATK + Int) - RST] * Multiplier * Hits

Now, there are 2 logical places where the x2 modifier can be placed.

Here:

[(ATK + Int) * 2 - RST] * Multiplier * Hits (a)

or here:

[(ATK + Int) - RST] * 2 * Multiplier * Hits (b)

Let's plug in some numbers and compare: Let's say Multiplier = 1 and Hits = 4 (Mystic Cross). Let's also say ATK = 1600 (Ether Scepter), Int = 100 (arbitrary), and RST = 300 (Loki).

Without Spell Reinforce, the damage is 5600.

If SR works according to equation (a), the damage after SR is 12400 or a 220% increase in damage.

If SR works according to equation (b), the damage after SR is 11200 or an exact 200% increase in damage.

My understanding is that MR and SR both apply according to equation (a) with a 50% increase in (ATK + Int) power. The ends up being a greater % increase to damage as demonstrated above.

Josh, I suspect that where and how the Reinforces are applied in the damage equation will yield different % increases if you're just looking at damage.

If Spell Reinforce works like Might Reinforce, the damage calculations apply the damage multiplier to your attack power *before* taking into account enemy resistance.

For the following example, let's say that SR doubles your attack power.

For Magic Damage, I believe the following equation applies:

[(ATK + Int) - RST] * Multiplier * Hits

Now, there are 2 logical places where the x2 modifier can be placed.

Here:

[(ATK + Int) [b]* 2[/b] - RST] * Multiplier * Hits    (a)

or here:

[(ATK + Int) - RST] [b]* 2[/b] * Multiplier * Hits     (b)

Let's plug in some numbers and compare:  Let's say Multiplier = 1 and Hits = 4 (Mystic Cross).  Let's also say ATK = 1600 (Ether Scepter), Int = 100 (arbitrary), and RST = 300 (Loki).

Without Spell Reinforce, the damage is 5600.

If SR works according to equation (a), the damage after SR is 12400 or a 220% increase in damage.

If SR works according to equation (b), the damage after SR is 11200 or an exact 200% increase in damage.

My understanding is that MR and SR both apply according to equation (a) with a 50% increase in (ATK + Int) power.  The ends up being a greater % increase to damage as demonstrated above.

Josh the Funkdoc

2006-11-09 04:33:13 am

spread the dirt to the populace

Well, I can tell you this much:

1. On most enemies, poison crystals deal 8000 damage. With Spell Reinforce, it goes up to 13000.

2. On Surt, with Reinforce, crystals do 11000 damage.

Thanks for the data though!

-Josh