Okage: Shadow King

2014-01-18 09:00:41 am

Sorry for the late reply, I just haven't logged in since I made my last post. We're good, DK. I come from an FGC background, and the mindset there (for me) was always share as much information as possible and everyone levels up more. Same here, I feel that we can make a great run of OSK by working together and an OK one working alone.

Anyway, I'm working on the Urns in the aquatic Ruins right now. Should have some useful info in the next couple of hours. Cheers!

Dabbit

2014-01-18 10:25:33 am

Alright, here we go. I originally had 5 different strategies for killing the urns, but quickly realized that 3 of them weren't even worth testing. So, the only legitimate strategies at this point are 1) 3-Person Combine attack twice or 2) 3-Person Combine attack one, + normal attack(s). The quick version is that strat 1 is faster for Urns 1-4, and strat 2 is faster for Urns 5-8.

On a side note, I ran these same tests with the "Left OverSword" Ari automatically has equipped vs the Nameless Sword that you can guy in the shop. Very roughly, I figured it took about 30 seconds to purchase and equip the sword, but the time saved fighting the urns is only about ~10 seconds. Again, those are very rough numbers.

Here are the different Urns fights (8 in total) and what level Ari will be when fighting them.

1st Urn @ Level 3
Strat 1: ~34 seconds
Strat 2: ~42 seconds
Ari level 3 => 5
1st Urn @ Level 5
Strat 1: ~40 seconds
Strat 2: ~38 seconds
Ari Level 5 => 6
1st Urn @ Level 6:
Strat 1: ~34 seconds
Strat 2: ~34 seconds
Ari Level 6 => 7
1st Urn @ Level 7:
Strat 1: ~36 seconds
Strat 2: ~32 seconds
Ari Level 7 => 9
1st Urn @ Level 9:
Strat 1: ~36 seconds
Strat 2: ~34 seconds
2nd Urn @ Level 9:
Strat 1: ~36 seconds
Strat 2: ~35 seconds
3rd Urn @ Level 9:
Strat 1: ~31 seconds
Strat 2: ~34 seconds
4th Urn @ Level 9:
Strat 1: ~31 seconds
Strat 2: ~35 seconds

Please let me know if you have any questions about this.

Alright, here we go.  I originally had 5 different strategies for killing the urns, but quickly realized that 3 of them weren't even worth testing.  So, the only legitimate strategies at this point are 1)  3-Person Combine attack twice or 2) 3-Person Combine attack one, + normal attack(s).  The quick version is that strat 1 is faster for Urns 1-4, and strat 2 is faster for Urns 5-8.

On a side note, I ran these same tests with the "Left OverSword" Ari automatically has equipped vs the  Nameless Sword that you can guy in the shop.  Very roughly, I figured it took about 30 seconds to purchase and equip the sword, but the time saved fighting the urns is only about ~10 seconds.  Again, those are very rough numbers.

Here are the different Urns fights (8 in total) and what level Ari will be when fighting them.

1st Urn @ Level 3
Strat 1: ~34 seconds
Strat 2: ~42 seconds
Ari level 3 => 5
1st Urn @ Level 5
Strat 1: ~40 seconds
Strat 2: ~38 seconds
Ari Level 5 => 6
1st Urn @ Level 6:
Strat 1: ~34 seconds
Strat 2: ~34 seconds
Ari Level 6 => 7
1st Urn @ Level 7: 
Strat 1: ~36 seconds
Strat 2: ~32 seconds
Ari Level 7 => 9
1st Urn @ Level 9:
Strat 1: ~36 seconds
Strat 2: ~34 seconds
2nd Urn @ Level 9:
Strat 1: ~36 seconds
Strat 2: ~35 seconds
3rd Urn @ Level 9:
Strat 1: ~31 seconds
Strat 2: ~34 seconds
4th Urn @ Level 9:
Strat 1: ~31 seconds
Strat 2: ~35 seconds

Please let me know if you have any questions about this.

Dabbit

Edit history:

Dabbit: 2014-01-18 01:56:18 pm

2014-01-18 11:10:49 am

I just found a new time saving technique! However, it's so... um... hard to watch and control, we may want to avoid using it anyway.

Basically, I noticed that Ghosts spawn around wherever the camera is centered. They never spawn off-screen. So, if you run toward the camera, all of the ghosts will spawn behind you, negating the need to weave/dodge around them; you can just go straight from point A to B and they can't catch you.

The problem is that running towards the camera sucks. It's very difficult to control (the camera keeps trying to reposition itself behind you, so you're constantly fighting it) and you can't see any of the scenery, which obviously increases the chances of getting caught by a ghost. Definitely saves time, though.

Equinox

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2014-01-18 02:42:01 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Truth be told I never noticed that but with memory alone that sounds right. Good observation there. I could see that trick being used in a few places but I have to wonder what happens if the camera is looking down at Ari from above and not aimed at him running into the screen, does it still work? It could definitely be used in places where random encounters are "unavoidable," but if you can reset until you don't get any random encounters through normal running I would think it would be faster due to better steering.

I put this together regarding Stan's Crushing Devil move and how it works:
-Activates in any battle every time Ari has taken 7 direct damaging attacks. This rule is the same for random encounters and boss fights.
-It does not matter how severe the attacks are or if the attacks are magical, physical, or some combination of the 2. It also has nothing to do with Ari's current HP.
-The very moment 7 hits are taken, Crushing Devil is qued up and will be used as soon as every unit on the field that chose to use moves beforehand uses their moves. In other words, Stan's attacks work the same way as the time bars for every other character/enemy does and receive no type of priority. This rule also applies to attribute neutral attacks such as Friendly Thunder, Blizzard, and Inferno.
-If more hits are taken then are needed for a Crushing Devil, they do not carry over to the next Crushing Devil hit counter. The hit counter on Ari does not reset until AFTER Crushing Devil is used.
-Status ailments or stat dropping effects on Ari do not raise the counter. Self inflicted damage to Ari such as through using abilities that cost HP like Overdrive do not raise the counter. Other forms of self inflicted damage such as using bottles and using a move while Ari is under the "Saint" effect also do not raise the counter.
-Multistage attacks count as a series of individual attacks meaning they fill the counter up very quickly. For instance Electric spells such as Storm, Mega Storm, and Maximum Voltage count as 4 separate attacks each. Rosalyn and Kisling posses 2 stage melee attacks and numerous enemies have them as well. They typically happen with a small 1 point of damage followed by a larger attack.

Truth be told I never noticed that but with memory alone that sounds right. Good observation there. I could see that trick being used in a few places but I have to wonder what happens if the camera is looking down at Ari from above and not aimed at him running into the screen, does it still work? It could definitely be used in places where random encounters are "unavoidable," but if you can reset until you don't get any random encounters through normal running I would think it would be faster due to better steering.

[b]I put this together regarding Stan's [i]Crushing Devil[/i] move and how it works:[/b]
-Activates in any battle every time Ari has taken 7 direct damaging attacks. This rule is the same for random encounters and boss fights.
-It does not matter how severe the attacks are or if the attacks are magical, physical, or some combination of the 2. It also has nothing to do with Ari's current HP.
-The very moment 7 hits are taken, Crushing Devil is qued up and will be used as soon as every unit on the field that chose to use moves beforehand uses their moves. In other words, Stan's attacks work the same way as the time bars for every other character/enemy does and receive no type of priority. This rule also applies to attribute neutral attacks such as Friendly Thunder, Blizzard, and Inferno.
-If more hits are taken then are needed for a Crushing Devil, they do not carry over to the next Crushing Devil hit counter. The hit counter on Ari does not reset until AFTER Crushing Devil is used. 
-Status ailments or stat dropping effects on Ari do not raise the counter. Self inflicted damage to Ari such as through using abilities that cost HP like Overdrive do not raise the counter. Other forms of self inflicted damage such as using bottles and using a move while Ari is under the "Saint" effect also do not raise the counter.
-Multistage attacks count as a series of individual attacks meaning they fill the counter up very quickly. For instance Electric spells such as Storm, Mega Storm, and Maximum Voltage count as 4 separate attacks each. Rosalyn and Kisling posses 2 stage melee attacks and numerous enemies have them as well. They typically happen with a small 1 point of damage followed by a larger attack.

Dabbit

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Dabbit: 2014-01-18 04:25:45 pm

2014-01-18 04:25:20 pm

Very cool. I've been wondering about Crush Devil for a while, so thanks! Very interesting read. Do you know if it's damage is physical/magical and if it's based on ari's physical/magic stat? I'd assume physical/strength, but everything with this game is just weird Smiley

Equinox

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2014-01-18 04:29:36 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Definitely a physical move, Phantom Evil King is immune to it and that is a fight you don't want him to use it on as it wastes time. I don't know how it is actually calculated though. Here are the descriptions of the 3 moves he uses in the game files:

Quote:

Burning Devil All Enemies Fiendish Fire Assault (medium).
Crushing Devil 1 Enemy Crushing Fire Assault.
Raging Devil All Enemies Rain of Flames on Enemies.

Also I am pretty sure he will use Crushing Devil on the enemy that triggered the 7th hit. I am not sure about Burning Devil, but Raging Devil is something Stan only uses after you pass a quiz he gives to you before a battle.

Dabbit

2014-01-18 04:37:35 pm

Awesome, thank you for your hard work. Burning Devil is the attack that Stan uses when Ari is dropped to less than or equal to 25% of maximum life. I think it's only triggered a direct damage physical attack, but I'm not 100% sure. If I can segway very quickly, do you know if there's an SDA resources that explains how to set up recording from a PS2? I did a quick google search, but didn't see anything immediately.

Equinox

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2014-01-18 04:41:33 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/creating_sda_acceptable_videos_ezcap_guide_.html This is probably your best bet. It's not the setup I am using but I have used it before.

Quote:

Awesome, thank you for your hard work.

Kind of strange how you say that! Tongue

Eh most of this is just stuff I have had for a long time in my notes. I started talking about it in an earlier post but I wasn't sure about Burning Devil. I never investigated it because I wasn't sure there was a strong amount of abuse for it. I know that it does not activate in boss fights.

Dabbit

2014-01-18 04:46:01 pm

That's exactly what I was looking for! Thanks again!

Equinox

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2014-01-18 04:55:44 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Beilloune has decided to be a dick to record and the problem with him is that he can't be killed at lvl 42, the bare minimum level. You have to a little bit of grinding at that part and that means figuring out which of the 7 possible packs of enemies grants the most experience for the risk/difficulty. The fight itself is going to have Ari constantly dropping into single digits. The level you agree upon is going to depend how much risk you are willing to take because standing through a 5 minute cutscene for every attempt sucks balls, especially if he decides to spam channel at the start causing a reset. The group composition does not truly matter as multiple combinations are capable of killing him but there is one group that is the only consistent and fastest group. The only problem is that other groups may make up for that during Vampire Evil King and the grinding. I feel I need to run through the game again because of all the stuff I have learned over the past 4 months. When I go back to him I am definitely going to have to shoot for close to 6:00, I'll worry about in a little while I am burnt out from this guy. Much of the last 4 months have been spent experimenting with various group compositions after Triste and I am glad I learned a lot.

Things I have learned this time around: Where to save, What groups to use, What gear/items I need
Things I want to learn this time around: Better fight strats all around, Definite Time Estimate

Beilloune has decided to be a dick to record and the problem with him is that he can't be killed at lvl 42, the bare minimum level. You have to a little bit of grinding at that part and that means figuring out which of the 7 possible packs of enemies grants the most experience for the risk/difficulty. The fight itself is going to have Ari constantly dropping into single digits. The level you agree upon is going to depend how much risk you are willing to take because standing through a 5 minute cutscene for every attempt sucks balls, especially if he decides to spam channel at the start causing a reset. The group composition does not truly matter as multiple combinations are capable of killing him but there is one group that is the only consistent and fastest group. The only problem is that other groups may make up for that during Vampire Evil King and the grinding. I feel I need to run through the game again because of all the stuff I have learned over the past 4 months. When I go back to him I am definitely going to have to shoot for close to 6:00, I'll worry about in a little while I am burnt out from this guy. Much of the last 4 months have been spent experimenting with various group compositions after Triste and I am glad I learned a lot.

[b]Things I have learned this time around:[/b] Where to save, What groups to use, What gear/items I need
[b]Things I want to learn this time around:[/b] Better fight strats all around, Definite Time Estimate

Equinox

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2014-01-18 08:10:50 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

More speed run notes I had: LP/HP costing abilities, you probably already knew this. A double edged sword with the mechanics of this game involves the fact that the cost of using an ability is taken when you que/issue the command, not when it is actually used. For instance when Ari uses Overdrive, it subtracts 15% HP when you tell him to use the ability, but he may not use the move for a little while. You can actually die from telling Ari to use an ability like this right before or while he is being attacked. It can be abused if you time healing correctly, such as using an ability like Overdrive right as Ari is receiving a heal. "Friendly" moves can be abused this way later, and of course, fleeing subtracts 10% total LP and LP works the same way as mentioned above with HP.

I have been doing the runs on a backwards compatible PS3. One cool thing about a PS3 is unlimited* PS2 memory cards. You can name them whatever you want and even assign colors to the memory card icons. I have been making lots of these and naming them after test group combinations, segments and boss fights.

More speed run notes I had: LP/HP costing abilities, you probably already knew this. A double edged sword with the mechanics of this game involves the fact that the cost of using an ability is taken when you que/issue the command, not when it is actually used. For instance when Ari uses Overdrive, it subtracts 15% HP when you tell him to use the ability, but he may not use the move for a little while. You can actually die from telling Ari to use an ability like this right before or while he is being attacked. It can be abused if you time healing correctly, such as using an ability like Overdrive right as Ari is receiving a heal. "Friendly" moves can be abused this way later, and of course, fleeing subtracts 10% total LP and LP works the same way as mentioned above with HP.

I have been doing the runs on a backwards compatible PS3. One cool thing about a PS3 is unlimited* PS2 memory cards. You can name them whatever you want and even assign colors to the memory card icons. I have been making lots of these and naming them after test group combinations, segments and boss fights.

Equinox

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2014-01-20 06:45:06 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Re-confirmed my strat for the first boss, and it took me ~30 resets this time around. The best encounter took 01:21:89 and the attempts revolve around the boss splitting damage correctly to avoid having to heal at all. The boss has 420 HP.

As for the second boss, my strat has changed slightly and is a bit more consistent than the last one. This guy has 666 HP and bulky adds that like to use Mend which kills attempts sometimes. My best time on him is 1:49 currently and I know there must be a slightly better way but this guy takes the damage splitting technique to the next level. I know 1:43-1:44 is possible but will require no healing.

Regarding Aquatic Ruins, I was testing the urn strats and I am having some conflicting times with the numbers given above. The times throughout the dungeon tend to be very consistent regarding what method I am using. The times are usually never more than 2 seconds off for a given method, and 1 method never even deviated a second off from 10 or so fights. I found 4 methods total that I ended up using with/without the Nameless Sword. Note: Chill urns have approximately 142 HP and drop either 298 Sukel(Common), or a Frozen Bottle(uncommon).

Quote:

I figured it took about 30 seconds to purchase and equip the sword

On a PS3 it took exactly 22 seconds for me. A Standard PS2 may not be as fast as a PS2 Slim and/or PS3 with the load times though. The sword saves more than 10 seconds according to my timing. Keep in mind there are strategies you didn't seem to list that are far more available with the Nameless Sword like using Overdrive to kill an urn in one wave. This method saves around 5-6 seconds compared to 1x 3 Person combined attack and a normal attack.

Re-confirmed my strat for the first boss, and it took me ~30 resets this time around. The best encounter took 01:21:89 and the attempts revolve around the boss splitting damage correctly to avoid having to heal at all. The boss has 420 HP.

As for the second boss, my strat has changed slightly and is a bit more consistent than the last one. This guy has 666 HP and bulky adds that like to use Mend which kills attempts sometimes. My best time on him is 1:49 currently and I know there must be a slightly better way but this guy takes the damage splitting technique to the next level. I know 1:43-1:44 is possible but will require no healing.

Regarding Aquatic Ruins, I was testing the urn strats and I am having some conflicting times with the numbers given above. The times throughout the dungeon tend to be very consistent regarding what method I am using. The times are usually never more than 2 seconds off for a given method, and 1 method never even deviated a second off from 10 or so fights. I found 4 methods total that I ended up using with/without the Nameless Sword. [b]Note:[/b] Chill urns have approximately 142 HP and drop either 298 Sukel(Common), or a Frozen Bottle(uncommon).[quote] I figured it took about 30 seconds to purchase and equip the sword[/quote]On a PS3 it took exactly 22 seconds for me.  A Standard PS2 may not be as fast as a PS2 Slim and/or PS3 with the load times though. The sword saves more than 10 seconds according to my timing. Keep in mind there are strategies you didn't seem to list that are far more available with the Nameless Sword like using Overdrive to kill an urn in one wave. This method saves around 5-6 seconds compared to 1x 3 Person combined attack and a normal attack.

Equinox

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2014-01-23 04:57:42 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

Here are the 5 methods for clearing Urns in Aquatic Ruins. These methods yield the same times with or without the Nameless Sword but where you use them will matter on Ari's weapon. Method 5 is luck based and happens by attempting methods 1-3 but relies on 2 or more party members critting. Here are the 5 strats with the fairly consistent times using them:
Method 1: 2x (3 Person combo attack) ~41-42 seconds
Method 2: 1x (3 Person combo attack), 1x (2 Person combo attack) ~40-41.5 seconds
Method 3: 1x (3 Person combo attack), 1x (Rosalyn Single Attack) ~39-40.5 seconds
Method 4: 1x (Ari Overdrive Self + 3 Person combo attack) ~33-33.8 seconds
Method 5: 1x (3 Person combo attack) ~27-28.5 seconds
The minor fluctuation in time is caused by the random time bar positions for characters at the beginning of battle and what moves the urn uses for methods 1-3.

As for the boss I have continued experimenting with him and the strat I used to get the time above seems to do just enough damage to kill him indicating a move wasn't wasted somewhere. A trend I have noticed with this game many times is that the 2nd fastest method seems to always be the most consistent one, and the method I was using seems to be the only consistent method. Everything else seems too radical, even for a segmented run. I think I found my strat.

The next bit up until the third boss hasn't changed at all from the last run except for the forced encounter in the wirepuller building. The route for the 3rd dungeon doesn't appear to have changed either. I have the urns here figured out.

Here are the 5 methods for clearing Urns in Aquatic Ruins. These methods yield the same times with or without the Nameless Sword but where you use them will matter on Ari's weapon. Method 5 is luck based and happens by attempting methods 1-3 but relies on 2 or more party members critting. Here are the 5 strats with the fairly consistent times using them:
[b]Method 1:[/b] 2x (3 Person combo attack)                                                                   [i]~41-42 seconds[/i]
[b]Method 2:[/b] 1x (3 Person combo attack), 1x (2 Person combo attack)                     [i]~40-41.5 seconds[/i]
[b]Method 3:[/b] 1x (3 Person combo attack), 1x (Rosalyn Single Attack)                       [i]~39-40.5 seconds[/i]
[b]Method 4:[/b] 1x (Ari Overdrive Self + 3 Person combo attack)                                   [i]~33-33.8 seconds[/i]
[b]Method 5:[/b] 1x (3 Person combo attack)                                                                 [i]~27-28.5 seconds[/i]
The minor fluctuation in time is caused by the random time bar positions for characters at the beginning of battle and what moves the urn uses for methods 1-3.

As for the boss I have continued experimenting with him and the strat I used to get the time above seems to do just enough damage to kill him indicating a move wasn't wasted somewhere. A trend I have noticed with this game many times is that the 2nd fastest method seems to always be the most consistent one, and the method I was using seems to be the only consistent method. Everything else seems too radical, even for a segmented run. I think I found my strat.

The next bit up until the third boss hasn't changed at all from the last run except for the forced encounter in the wirepuller building. The route for the 3rd dungeon doesn't appear to have changed either. I have the urns here figured out.

Equinox

2014-01-23 04:57:29 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Spammin' up this thread. Finalized strat with 3rd boss using a simpler(not sure if it's consistent or not) version of the old strat though I must say his adds are always going to be risky and there's never going to be a way around that if you want the fastest time(Kisling dies a lot). I think I got lucky with the attempt I just got. Since this is the most non-linear dungeon in the game, and the dungeon routing, item/money management, and boss strats for Sealed Cave onward are very solid I may be ready to start recording the real run soon. I don't feel like it's possible to shave off any more time with the first 6-7 segments I have planned and since they don't influence what is going on right now I might as well start.

Dabbit

2014-01-24 04:41:57 pm

Yeah, it's definitely looks like to me that the loading time on the ps3 is faster than the ps2. I've been trying my best to beat the time on the beta run video you made a while back, but on my best runs i'm ending chapter 1 right around the 20 minute mark. I'm sure that there's stuff I could be doing better, but i don't think there's so much i'm doing wrong that i could be saving that much time. The only thing I can think of is that the loading times are slower on my unit. Or I could just suck, I have no idea yet Smiley

I'm really surprised by the results you got with the urns. The strats I had, especially the ones using the overdrive, were almost 20 seconds slower than just doing 3 person combo + normal attack. I don't know what I did wrong, but I should go and double check. Not that I don't trust your numbers, but I want to see what I was doing wrong.

For the Bubble Evil King fight, the strategy i've been using to good effect is overdriving Rosalyn and then having her attack the compassion crabs. With overdrive, she kills them in 1 hit (assuming she doesn't miss). I haven't sat down and gotten average times though. I'll do that this weekend. On my practice runs, I've never needed to heal more than 5 times, I think. I also played around with using Ari's Night spell on the compassion crabs, it seems to have about a 50% hit rate (not an accurate number). I couldn't tell that that was saving any more time than not using it. Again, I just need to get some more numbers.

Yeah, it's definitely looks like to me that the loading time on the ps3 is faster than the ps2.  I've been trying my best to beat the time on the beta run video you made a while back, but on my best runs i'm ending chapter 1 right around the 20 minute mark.  I'm sure that there's stuff I could be doing better, but i don't think there's so much i'm doing wrong that  i could be saving that much time.  The only thing I can think of is that the loading times are slower on my unit.  Or I could just suck, I have no idea yet :)

I'm really surprised by the results you got with the urns.  The strats I had, especially the ones using the overdrive, were almost 20 seconds slower than just doing 3 person combo + normal attack.  I don't know what I did wrong, but I should go and double check.  Not that I don't trust your numbers, but I want to see what I was doing wrong.

For the Bubble Evil King fight, the strategy i've been using to good effect is overdriving Rosalyn and then having her attack the compassion crabs.  With overdrive, she kills them in 1 hit (assuming she doesn't miss).  I haven't sat down and gotten average times though.  I'll do that this weekend.  On my practice runs, I've never needed to heal more than 5 times, I think.  I also played around with using Ari's Night spell on the compassion crabs, it seems to have about a 50% hit rate (not an accurate number).  I couldn't tell that that was saving any more time than not using it.  Again, I just need to get some more numbers.

Equinox

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2014-01-26 12:11:40 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

Quote:

I've been trying my best to beat the time on the beta run video you made a while back, but on my best runs i'm ending chapter 1 right around the 20 minute mark. I'm sure that there's stuff I could be doing better, but i don't think there's so much i'm doing wrong that i could be saving that much time.

Ending Chapter 1? You mean after you leave Ari's house for Madril? The in game timer in the beta run was around ~20:55 at the first save in Madril. The in game timer has no seconds so you have to check it with footage. The in game timer in that says 20 minutes flat but that is incorrect. Remember that faster load times does not mean faster gameplay, only a shorter transition from one area to another/field to battle. I don't know if this helps or not. I honestly can't remember how much the difference was when I tested it but I do remember it was ~significant.

Was up for quite a while yesterday experimenting with Chairmen Evil King a bit more. I thought it might get better but it won't. Undecided

The time on him is always going to vary a bit due to drain so it's not really worth mentioning an exact time( ~1:58 would be the better end of it I think). Onto Big Tree Hole, not looking forward to retesting this place.

[quote]I've been trying my best to beat the time on the beta run video you made a while back, but on my best runs i'm ending chapter 1 right around the 20 minute mark.  I'm sure that there's stuff I could be doing better, but i don't think there's so much i'm doing wrong that  i could be saving that much time.[/quote]Ending Chapter 1? You mean after you leave Ari's house for Madril? The in game timer in the beta run was around ~20:55 at the first save in Madril. The in game timer has no seconds so you have to check it with footage. The in game timer in that says 20 minutes flat but that is incorrect. Remember that faster load times does not mean faster gameplay, only a shorter transition from one area to another/field to battle. I don't know if this helps or not. I honestly can't remember how much the difference was when I tested it but I do remember it was ~significant.

Was up for quite a while yesterday experimenting with Chairmen Evil King a bit more. I thought it might get better but it won't. :-\ The time on him is always going to vary a bit due to drain so it's not really worth mentioning an exact time( ~1:58 would be the better end of it I think). Onto Big Tree Hole, not looking forward to retesting this place.

Equinox

2014-01-26 02:37:56 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Noticed something I should have seen a long time ago: Ordinary melee attacks carry element. Every melee attack a unit(Character/Enemy) uses has the element of whatever element they are. For example if Rosalyn uses her melee attack, it is actually a physical Ice attack. If she is attacking an electric type foe it will do around half damage. But if a fire enemy attacks Rosalyn with a physical attack it will do around half damage to her. Most enemies have 2 types of melee attacks, a strong and a weak one and they both carry the element. Ari is Neutral so he does unhindered average damage to everything and takes no super effective hits. The only Neutral enemy in the game is Beiloune. This doesn't change the run at all, at least not for me but it's still interesting and a step to understanding the damage calculation. I managed to obtain some gear that allowed Ari and Rosalyn to match Attack and they were doing the same damage so the system is there and is consistent.

Equinox

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2014-01-27 11:36:22 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Had to break an obsession with Chairman Evil King, but the new attempt was 1:38!!!! No healing involved either(That is unimaginably lucky). There was only about 3 seconds of menuing error too, mostly because I wasn't sure if I did something wrong with the strange results I was getting. I think it's impossible to get sub 1:30 on him, even that kind of luck isn't realistic for a segmented run, that would be a 1/1000+ attempt. For some reason I think I panicked a little bit and it doesn't feel like a perfect attempt though. Moving on now, for real.

As far as the Ablaze Urns go, they each have 412 HP. They take more attacks to kill so more options are needed to be tested. So far I have these times:
Method 1: 3x (3 Person Combo Attack) ~52-55 Seconds
Method 2: 2x (3 Person Combo Attack), 1x (2 Person Combo Attack) ~51-55 Seconds
Method 3: 2x (3 Person Combo Attack), 1x (Rosalyn Attack) ~50.5-55 Seconds
Method 4: 2x (Ari Overdrive Self + 3 Person Combo Attack) ~46-48 Seconds
Method 5: 1x (Ari Overdrive Self + 3 Person Combo Attack), 1x (2 Person Combo Attack) ~45-47 Seconds
Method 6: 1x (Ari Overdrive Self + 3 Person Combo Attack), 1x (Rosalyn Attack) ~44.5-46 Seconds
Method 7: 2x (3 Person combo attack) ~41-42 Seconds (Same as Aquatic Ruins)
As for Big Bull I seem to be getting around ~2:48 attempts with the current strategy and the time is dropping with practice. I was kind of excited to try the current strat when I discovered it and it didn't disappoint. He has 2745 HP and is a physical threat to everybody except Rosalyn because of the typing thing. This boss is giving me a migraine so I will try more tomorrow.

Input would be appreciated.

Had to break an obsession with Chairman Evil King, but the new attempt was 1:38!!!! No healing involved either(That is unimaginably lucky). There was only about 3 seconds of menuing error too, mostly because I wasn't sure if I did something wrong with the strange results I was getting. I think it's impossible to get sub 1:30 on him, even that kind of luck isn't realistic for a segmented run, that would be a 1/1000+ attempt. For some reason I think I panicked a little bit and it doesn't feel like a perfect attempt though. Moving on now, for real.

As far as the Ablaze Urns go, they each have 412 HP. They take more attacks to kill so more options are needed to be tested. So far I have these times:
[b]Method 1:[/b] 3x (3 Person Combo Attack)                                                                                   [i]~52-55 Seconds[/i]
[b]Method 2:[/b] 2x (3 Person Combo Attack), 1x (2 Person Combo Attack)                                     [i]~51-55 Seconds[/i]
[b]Method 3:[/b] 2x (3 Person Combo Attack), 1x (Rosalyn Attack)                                                   [i]~50.5-55 Seconds[/i]
[b]Method 4:[/b] 2x (Ari Overdrive Self + 3 Person Combo Attack)                                                    [i]~46-48 Seconds[/i]
[b]Method 5:[/b] 1x (Ari Overdrive Self + 3 Person Combo Attack), 1x (2 Person Combo Attack)      [i]~45-47 Seconds[/i]
[b]Method 6:[/b] 1x (Ari Overdrive Self + 3 Person Combo Attack), 1x (Rosalyn Attack)                    [i]~44.5-46 Seconds[/i]
[b]Method 7:[/b] 2x (3 Person combo attack)                                                                                    [i]~41-42 Seconds[/i] (Same as Aquatic Ruins)
As for Big Bull I seem to be getting around ~2:48 attempts with the current strategy and the time is dropping with practice. I was kind of excited to try the current strat when I discovered it and it didn't disappoint. He has 2745 HP and is a physical threat to everybody except Rosalyn because of the typing thing. This boss is giving me a migraine so I will try more tomorrow.

Input would be appreciated.

Dabbit

2014-01-28 02:09:19 pm

Wow, nice! Sorry I haven't been helping lately, haven't had any free time to myself to sit down and figure anything out. I didd complete a SS run from start --> BEK dead, clocked in a 1:02:56 RT. I think I can do much better. I also found out that if you hug the left hand path just before the bridge where you meet Rosalyn, you can skip picking up the tiny gear.
Not sure if this has any repercussions later on. We shall see.

Maybe I'm missing something, you've referred to various strats for the different bosses, but I don't see them listed anywhere. Or are you keeping them close to your chest until you get them uploaded? If the latter, I don't know how to help with the input.

Equinox

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2014-01-28 03:39:04 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

I am kind of holding on to them until I upload them as many of them are too difficult to explain. For now the times can be very telling and there are some rough outlines of some of the extremities involved. I figured out the tiny gear thing there but never said anything, sorry. My main focus with the notes was to completely optimize urn and boss strats this time around so I haven't really mentioned any of the discoveries outdoors. Regarding Tiny Gears, no chance you would obtain the Sword of Gear in a speed run so that doesn't matter. There are 32 tiny gears, 8 in each outdoor area. Once you obtain 30 of them you can trade them for Ari's ultimate in Pospos Snowfields outside Triste but it would be at least a 30 minute detour.

Looks as if Big Bull is pretty much figured out and if I needed to compromise something in the future to make it easier I know how to do that. Tomorrow night I am going to start recording the real run. When I get burned out from that I will go to Sealed Cave. I don't know much luck you were able to push if you did the first 2 bosses and a dungeon in one go. Usually it takes me 30+ resets the get the fastest/best times on those 2 fights let alone guarantee I never have any accidental movement errors. I assume you were using decent recovery, no? I had considered putting up a bounty on a SS run at one point.

I am kind of holding on to them until I upload them as many of them are too difficult to explain. For now the times can be very telling and there are some rough outlines of some of the extremities involved. I figured out the tiny gear thing there but never said anything, sorry. My main focus with the notes was to completely optimize urn and boss strats this time around so I haven't really mentioned any of the discoveries outdoors. Regarding Tiny Gears, no chance you would obtain the Sword of Gear in a speed run so that doesn't matter. There are 32 tiny gears, 8 in each outdoor area. Once you obtain 30 of them you can trade them for Ari's ultimate in Pospos Snowfields outside Triste but it would be at least a 30 minute detour.

Looks as if Big Bull is pretty much figured out and if I needed to compromise something in the future to make it easier I know how to do that. Tomorrow night I am going to start recording the real run. When I get burned out from that I will go to Sealed Cave. I don't know much luck you were able to push if you did the first 2 bosses and a dungeon in one go. Usually it takes me 30+ resets the get the fastest/best times on those 2 fights let alone guarantee I never have any accidental movement errors. I assume you were using decent recovery, no? I had considered putting up a bounty on a SS run at one point.

Dabbit

2014-01-28 04:14:14 pm

Please keep in mind that I've never speed run a game before, just about everything I know is from watching agdq/sgdq videos, and some SRL streams. So, everything I'm doing I'm just making up as I go along. The concept of resetting never even crossed my mind, as all I was interested in was a SS run. I'm just trying to figure out consistent ways to beat the bosses and whatever other time saving techniques I can figure out.

I guess that's why I'm stuck trying to figure out small time savers right now, like skipping the tiny gear, or which path to Rashelo is fastest. I understand that information isn't going to be very helpful to you right now, as you're focusing on the actual important parts of the run Smiley

I'll definitely put in some time with the bosses soon.

As far as the recovery goes, I am using nuts on an as needed basis, but I can do the first two bosses only using about 11 nuts in total. You can easily buy 50 nuts while still in Tenel, so it's not a problem or major time sink at all.

On a completely different note, I assume you're already familiar with the "double accessory" bug? Are you using it? If so, what item?

Please keep in mind that I've never speed run a game before, just about everything I know is from watching agdq/sgdq videos, and some SRL streams.  So, everything I'm doing I'm just making up as I go along.  The concept of resetting never even crossed my mind, as all I was interested in was a SS run.  I'm just trying to figure out consistent ways to beat the bosses and whatever other time saving techniques I can figure out.

I guess that's why I'm stuck trying to figure out small time savers right now, like skipping the tiny gear, or which path to Rashelo is fastest.  I understand that information isn't going to be very helpful to you right now, as you're focusing on the actual important parts of the run :)

I'll definitely put in some time with the bosses soon.

As far as the recovery goes, I am using nuts on an as needed basis, but I can do the first two bosses only using about 11 nuts in total.  You can easily buy 50 nuts while still in Tenel, so it's not a problem or major time sink at all.

On a completely different note, I assume you're already familiar with the "double accessory" bug?  Are you using it? If so, what item?

Equinox

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2014-01-28 04:18:12 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or anything! Yes I know about the dupe bug. It occurs in chapter 5 while the party is absent. You equip an accessory on Ari that was placed in the bag that was equipped to an ally at the end of chapter 4 and...temporary dupe. What you want to duplicate depends on what you have grabbed. There is a Mirage Ring in Sealed Cave as well as a Panther's Fang(+5 Attack) in the final part of the Madril sewer. Depending on your play style those would be the 2 items to go for. Keep in mind that if you unequip it from Ari the glitch ends. That Mirage ring does cause the opponents to miss more often.

Dabbit

2014-01-28 04:21:05 pm

You weren't rude at all, I was just trying to be as clear as possible Smiley

Dabbit

2014-01-28 04:22:56 pm

Sorry, I'm a QA Lead at a games company, so I'm constantly stuck in manager/business speak.

Equinox

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2014-01-28 04:23:54 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Also don't mind me if you ever see me writing a lot then gradually getting rid of it. I am an unhealthy obsessive. Typically the shorter message I have to review before bed the better. Most of the time i just bring it up again a few days later. I have lots of notes so most of it is just too much to talk about in a day. It's not that i am trying to hide stuff. Sometimes I will write something and be like "Hmm now that I have reflected on that, it may not be correct, better check that."

What company? Tongue