Okage: Shadow King

Dabbit

2014-01-28 04:43:14 pm

It's called GREE. It's only mobile games, sadly. Nothing people actually want to play Smiley

Equinox

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2014-01-28 04:51:57 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

I thought that was a growing market(I could be wrong)? I am sure there is something in it. I am very close to my associates in software development. The ends of semesters have forced me to halt this run several times including last November to Christmas. I am still [slowly] pursuing my education. Cheesy

Dabbit

2014-01-28 05:09:31 pm

Yeah, the mobile market is huge, I was just joking that nobody plays the games I work on.

Equinox

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2014-01-28 05:20:37 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

I find it hard to know when you are joking sometimes lol(That smiley). On a different note, you were talking long segments, maybe a SS(I don't know if you were serious about this or not). Nevertheless I guess I should share my thoughts on a SS of this game:

-First and foremost IT IS possible to do a SS of this game but I am not sure of the difficulty. Risky stuff would have to be cut, so keep picking consistent stuff.
-The last half of the game will be designed completely different from a segmented run. People seem to think a SS of this game is impossible but I strongly disagree. There are only 3 things that would have to be addressed differently in a SS, lack of money, different boss strats, and a need more recovery/defensive abilities such as Powerless.
-You are allowed resets in a SS nowadays. This would be useful later on in a SS run. You can have "Safety saves" to fall back on but obviously this should only be done where there is a save immediately before a boss fight. Luckily there are saves before the last 3 and they are the hardest, arguably.
-I honestly estimated a fairly segmented to run to go close to 4 hours. A SS might go towards 5 but there are people doing crazy stuff like FF7 SS nowadays(~7:45:00:00).
-Character selection may change towards the end from a segmented run. You may prefer the group with the strongest survivability over damage output.
-The Urns and general pathing wouldn't change but money WILL be handled differently. Some dungeons like Deep Grave Pit have a decent chance to drop crap items over ~5k Sukel. Luckily in my segmented runs there tends to be some excess money at the end as well as throughout the run so this shouldn't be that rough.
-The only bosses that I don't think could ever be eliminated as a heavy risk are Vampire Evil King and Big Bull Evil King. The rest are very predictable and can offer some cushioning with error(provided you have practiced them and understand their "rhythm"). The boss fights would still have fairly consistent strats and leveling up a little more would definitely help but remember that it could make you come out at a lower level by the time you reach the next boss because of the weird EXP system.

I find it hard to know when you are joking sometimes lol(That smiley). On a different note, you were talking long segments, maybe a SS(I don't know if you were serious about this or not). Nevertheless I guess I should share my thoughts on a SS of this game:

-First and foremost IT IS possible to do a SS of this game but I am not sure of the difficulty. Risky stuff would have to be cut, so keep picking consistent stuff.
-The last half of the game will be designed completely different from a segmented run. People seem to think a SS of this game is impossible but I strongly disagree. There are only 3 things that would have to be addressed differently in a SS, lack of money, different boss strats, and a need more recovery/defensive abilities such as Powerless.
-You are allowed resets in a SS nowadays. This would be useful later on in a SS run. You can have "Safety saves" to fall back on but obviously this should only be done where there is a save immediately before a boss fight. Luckily there are saves before the last 3 and they are the hardest, arguably.
-I honestly estimated a fairly segmented to run to go close to 4 hours. A SS might go towards 5 but there are people doing crazy stuff like FF7 SS nowadays(~7:45:00:00).
-Character selection may change towards the end from a segmented run. You may prefer the group with the strongest survivability over damage output.
-The Urns and general pathing wouldn't change but money WILL be handled differently. Some dungeons like Deep Grave Pit have a decent chance to drop crap items over ~5k Sukel. Luckily in my segmented runs there tends to be some excess money at the end as well as throughout the run so this shouldn't be that rough.
-The only bosses that I don't think could ever be eliminated as a heavy risk are Vampire Evil King and Big Bull Evil King. The rest are very predictable and can offer some cushioning with error(provided you have practiced them and understand their "rhythm"). The boss fights would still have fairly consistent strats and leveling up a little more would definitely help but remember that it could make you come out at a lower level by the time you reach the next boss because of the weird EXP system.

Equinox

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2014-01-30 01:50:07 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I'd like to mention a mechanic that pertains to longer fights, primarily Beiloune and Big Bull. The mechanic involves time bar abuse, aka making sure a character's time bar fills up such that you never have to tell them to wait for anything other than a combine. You will notice that characters fill their time bars at set intervals throughout the fight, this is a type of rhythm that remains consistent after the first few moves. You may want to set a character's time bar to fill up after another character's, but more than likely you want it to fill up before or after a boss/enemy.

The best example would be with someone designated as a healer. If their time bar always fills up before the boss deals damage, then you need to tell them to wait since no damage has been done and there is nothing for them to heal yet. If it fills up after the boss deals damage, the time lost menuing telling them to wait is removed. The big reason it's necessary to calibrate a time bar like this though is that you can't combine attack while the healer is waiting. If you do then they participate in the attack and then when the boss does damage, there is no healer ready in time and somebody may die. I find it is easiest to calibrate a time bar within the first 3 waves of attacks. For some reason, slower characters like Kisling and Big Bull are easier to calibrate. A lot of it also has to do with who moves first in a fight. Even if this takes several seconds to fix, it is generally worth it in the 2 fights listed above. Even in a single segment I think paying attention to who moves first on the first wave of attacks would be wise. I just got Big Bull down to around 2:28 and the boss isn't really acceptable without this manipulation as this is the first fight where repeated healing is a requirement regardless of luck.

I'd like to mention a mechanic that pertains to longer fights, primarily Beiloune and Big Bull. The mechanic involves time bar abuse, aka making sure a character's time bar fills up such that you never have to tell them to wait for anything other than a combine. You will notice that characters fill their time bars at set intervals throughout the fight, this is a type of rhythm that remains consistent after the first few moves. You may want to set a character's time bar to fill up after another character's, but more than likely you want it to fill up before or after a boss/enemy.

The best example would be with someone designated as a healer. If their time bar always fills up before the boss deals damage, then you need to tell them to wait since no damage has been done and there is nothing for them to heal yet. If it fills up after the boss deals damage, the time lost menuing telling them to wait is removed. The big reason it's necessary to calibrate a time bar like this though is that you can't combine attack while the healer is waiting. If you do then they participate in the attack and then when the boss does damage, there is no healer ready in time and somebody may die. I find it is easiest to calibrate a time bar within the first 3 waves of attacks. For some reason, slower characters like Kisling and Big Bull are easier to calibrate. A lot of it also has to do with who moves first in a fight. Even if this takes several seconds to fix, it is generally worth it in the 2 fights listed above. Even in a single segment I think paying attention to who moves first on the first wave of attacks would be wise. I just got Big Bull down to around 2:28 and the boss isn't really acceptable without this manipulation as this is the first fight where repeated healing is a requirement regardless of luck.

Equinox

Edit history:

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2014-01-30 03:58:26 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I feel like I have belittled your efforts too much so far. I am very sorry about this, even if you aren't offended. I look back at my text constantly and feel like I say things I shouldn't. Undecided

Everything I write during the day tends to be after staying up all night when I am strung out. You have found some good stuff. What I said about my priorities with the bosses/urns was that they were my main focus, not that finding time savers in other areas wasn't important. Anything that saves time(especially if it is a consistent time saver) is important so don't worry.

I have been trying to upload some incredibly detailed maps of the first 2 dungeons(I spent a long time on them, they are fully color coded now so you can see all the door/switch combinations), but imgur keeps failing to process the pictures for some reason. I doubt pictures drawn in paint with so much white space could be too large. I have seen some of the stuff uploaded there.

Dabbit

2014-01-31 09:47:39 am

For the record, I never felt like you were belittling my efforts. In fact, I'm grateful for the input you've provided to me so far, as I now understand I've been focusing on the wrong things. My goal is an SS run, but if I don't know how to even beat the bosses, it's going to take me significantly longer to get to the point that I need to be at to complete it. My goal has been to get an earlier part of the run down as best I could, then move on. But without knowing what's needed to later in the game, i'm going to need to revisit the areas I thought I had already "completed" previously. So, thank you.

I apologize for not being able to help out the last few weeks or so. This is something that is important to me, and it bothers me that I've been too busy to do what I want. And unfortunately, that's not going to change this week either. I haven't given up, and will make try my best to sit down and work out some numbers, hopefully by next weekend. Smiley

Equinox

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2014-02-01 09:43:32 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

That's good....I strive to be on good terms with any community I am in. On another note, speaking of what's ahead, below are the statistics for money throughout Chapter 4 at key areas(All of these assume you did not do any side grinding as well as not selling anything you didn't buy such as an item from a chest):

Beginning of Chapter 4: MAX Sukel = 4,514 (1000 Start, 17 Two Forced encounters, 104 Sewer Evil King, 2384(298 x 8)Chill Urns, 1009 Bubble Evil King)
After Escapeless Abyss: MAX Sukel = 10,614 (162 Wirepuller Encounter, 4378(398 x 11)Sparky Urns, 1560 Chairman Evil King)
After Big Tree Hole: MAX Sukel = 34,415 (21780(1980 x 11)Ablaze Urns, 2021 Big Bull Evil King)
After Sealed Cave: MAX Sukel = 59,351 (20860(2980 x7)Gloomy Urns, 4076 Teen Idol Evil King)
End of Chapter 4: MAX Sukel = 64,127 (4776(398 x 12)Sparky Urns)

That's good....I strive to be on good terms with any community I am in. On another note, speaking of what's ahead, below are the statistics for money throughout Chapter 4 at key areas(All of these assume you did not do any side grinding as well as not selling anything you didn't buy such as an item from a chest):

[b]Beginning of Chapter 4:  [/b] MAX Sukel = [b]4,514[/b]   ([i][u]1000[/u][/i] Start, [i][u]17[/u][/i] Two Forced encounters, [i][u]104[/u][/i] Sewer Evil King, [i][u]2384[/u](298 x 8)[/i]Chill Urns, [i][u]1009[/u][/i] Bubble Evil King)
[b]After Escapeless Abyss:  [/b]MAX Sukel = [b]10,614[/b] ([i][u]162[/u][/i] Wirepuller Encounter, [i][u]4378[/u](398 x 11)[/i]Sparky Urns, [i][u]1560[/u][/i] Chairman Evil King)
[b]After Big Tree Hole:        [/b]MAX Sukel = [b]34,415[/b] ([i][u]21780[/u](1980 x 11)[/i]Ablaze Urns, [i][u]2021[/u][/i] Big Bull Evil King)
[b]After Sealed Cave:           [/b] MAX Sukel = [b]59,351[/b] (20860(2980 x7)Gloomy Urns, [i][u]4076[/u][/i] Teen Idol Evil King)
[b]End of Chapter 4:            [/b] MAX Sukel = [b]64,127[/b] ([u][i]4776[/i][/u](398 x 12)Sparky Urns)

Equinox

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2014-02-03 08:28:34 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

Sealed Cave has arguably the highest enemy encounter rate in the game, which makes skipping all random encounters a challenge. In a SS you may want to inspect an open door here and there as it makes ghosts disappear temporarily. Another obstacle is the common drop rate for a Miracle Nut rather than 2980 Sukel off the urns. This place is heavily luck reliant before AND during the boss, which makes it different than the dungeons thus far imo. Linda holds the crown as the most annoying boss in the game because of her Midnight/Heavy Load spamming. My best attempts with her using the first group are right under 2 minutes. At least she doesn't hit hard. The dungeon itself has not changed at all since the first run, this is the first dungeon like this for the 2nd run.

Observations and Theories:
-Overdrive increases a character's attack power by 100%.
-Characters gain an additional 25% attack power when participating in a combine attack.
-Critical strikes increase an attack's power by 50%.
-ALL elemental attacks that do super-effective damage cause 50% more damage(x1.5) and resisted attacks do 50% less damage(x0.5).
-I am trying to understand the damage calculation and I believe it to be overly simple. It involves taking the unit's raw attack stat to deal damage with any decrease in potential damage caused by target defense, which means:
Potential Power = (Unit Attack + Buff Bonuses + Possible Crit(+75%) + Possible Combine Bonus(+25%))
Damage Done = (Potential Power * Type modifier - Target Defense)

Sealed Cave has arguably the highest enemy encounter rate in the game, which makes skipping all random encounters a challenge. In a SS you may want to inspect an open door here and there as it makes ghosts disappear temporarily. Another obstacle is the common drop rate for a Miracle Nut rather than 2980 Sukel off the urns. This place is heavily luck reliant before AND during the boss, which makes it different than the dungeons thus far imo. Linda holds the crown as the most annoying boss in the game because of her Midnight/Heavy Load spamming. My best attempts with her using the first group are right under 2 minutes. At least she doesn't hit hard. The dungeon itself has not changed at all since the first run, this is the first dungeon like this for the 2nd run.

[b]Observations and Theories:[/b]
-Overdrive increases a character's attack power by 100%.
-Characters gain an additional 25% attack power when participating in a combine attack.
-Critical strikes increase an attack's power by 50%.
-[u]ALL[/u] elemental attacks that do super-effective damage cause 50% more damage(x1.5) and resisted attacks do 50% less damage(x0.5).
-I am trying to understand the damage calculation and I believe it to be overly simple. It involves taking the unit's raw attack stat to deal damage with any decrease in potential damage caused by target defense, which means: 
[b]Potential Power[/b] = (Unit Attack + Buff Bonuses + Possible Crit(+75%) + Possible Combine Bonus(+25%)) 
[b]Damage Done[/b] = (Potential Power * Type modifier - Target Defense)

Equinox

2014-02-07 04:37:07 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Minor update. Got back to Deep Grave Pit and discovered some new possible routing methods in here. I also grabbed too many items last time so it will be easier in the real run. Linda got down to around ~1:30, however, I feel like this fight is glitched as it appears she only has around 1000 HP. I'll be arriving at PEK again soon and there really isn't anything new to try. Drawing Deep Grave Pit and Madril Sewers is difficult because they seem to have a custom grid layout compared to the other dungeons. I would share them but imgur is still derping on processing the pictures.

Equinox

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2014-02-10 08:13:39 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

Finished routing Deep Grave Pit for good and I was continuously surprised how hidden the best paths were. Even drawn out to scale its hard to find the fastest methods so I had to use recordings to find the routes. Still on the fence whether to do most of it in a single sitting. I suppose my sanity will have to determine that later if I want to be perfect.

Phantom Evil King is a 100+ resetter for sure, and also a tremendous dick. Previous boss fights were all about resetting to not let the adds attack strictly because of their attack animation time and status effects, not because they posed a major offensive threat(except for Chairmen Evil King's adds). Doing this fight underleveled and undergeared is insane. One bit of bad luck and all characters are KOd within 30 seconds of the fight starting. It takes luck for them to get a second move off regardless of party composition. You have to bet that the adds die fast, AND, that the boss' first move is never Lightning, Mega Storm, or Maximum Voltage or else a party member WILL die without taking time to top people off beforehand. If this were a SS, I would make sure I had a party of level 40s and used a lot more recovery. In fact, in a SS the methodology for killing the adds wouldn't change, you would just do it slower. Unfortunately, he can't be silenced because like pretty much all bosses he is immune to stat drops/ailments, bummer.

Finished routing Deep Grave Pit for good and I was continuously surprised how hidden the best paths were. Even drawn out to scale its hard to find the fastest methods so I had to use recordings to find the routes. Still on the fence whether to do most of it in a single sitting. I suppose my sanity will have to determine that later if I want to be perfect.

Phantom Evil King is a 100+ resetter for sure, and also a tremendous dick. Previous boss fights were all about resetting to not let the adds attack strictly because of their attack animation time and status effects, not because they posed a major offensive threat(except for Chairmen Evil King's adds). Doing this fight underleveled and undergeared is insane. One bit of bad luck and all characters are KOd within 30 seconds of the fight starting. It takes luck for them to get a second move off regardless of party composition. You have to bet that the adds die fast, AND, that the boss' first move is never Lightning, Mega Storm, or Maximum Voltage or else a party member WILL die without taking time to top people off beforehand. If this were a SS, I would make sure I had a party of level 40s and used a lot more recovery. In fact, in a SS the methodology for killing the adds wouldn't change, you would just do it slower. Unfortunately, he can't be silenced because like pretty much all bosses he is immune to stat drops/ailments, bummer.

Equinox

2014-02-14 12:21:52 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Stayed up all night practicing Vampire Evil King, and I still haven't found a clear strategy. In fact, I have not found even so much as a single consistent method. This is truly the most difficult fight in the entire run as it matters not what party you bring or what utility moves you use because the same problem persists: too many attacks on you preventing you from mounting a constant offensive. At least in this fight characters aren't quite getting 1 shot like the last boss. Still though, there is a constant need for recovery and there is no easy way around it. The main issue when attempting to kill the adds is that they have 365 HP each and are Electric/Yellow, meaning Rosalyn does reduced damage to them. No matter what you do, you can't weasel your way past them by quickly nuking them down. This means they are guaranteed to all get multiple attacks off which is very, very, frustrating. They have the absolute worst move pool of all boss adds including access to Scatterbrain, which ruins attempts if it lands. They also like to combine with the boss which can insta-kill occasionally.

I am certain everything in the run up until this boss is absolutely the way I want it for the run. I tried doing things differently, thinking it could make this fight easier without sacrificing too much time in earlier fights but there wasn't. It's faster to struggle here than to alter an earlier fight, which sucks.

Stayed up all night practicing Vampire Evil King, and I still haven't found a clear strategy. In fact, I have not found even so much as a single consistent method. This is truly the most difficult fight in the entire run as it matters not what party you bring or what utility moves you use because the same problem persists: too many attacks on you preventing you from mounting a constant offensive. At least in this fight characters aren't quite getting 1 shot like the last boss. Still though, there is a constant need for recovery and there is no easy way around it. The main issue when attempting to kill the adds is that they have 365 HP each and are Electric/Yellow, meaning Rosalyn does reduced damage to them. No matter what you do, you can't weasel your way past them by quickly nuking them down. This means they are guaranteed to all get multiple attacks off which is very, very, frustrating. They have the absolute worst move pool of all boss adds including access to Scatterbrain, which ruins attempts if it lands. They also like to combine with the boss which can insta-kill occasionally.

I am certain everything in the run up until this boss is absolutely the way I want it for the run. I tried doing things differently, thinking it could make this fight easier without sacrificing too much time in earlier fights but there wasn't. It's faster to struggle here than to alter an earlier fight, which sucks.

Equinox

2014-02-17 11:02:52 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I was too bored/worn out after work last night to practice VEK(which is actually more of a skill and observational fight than I first thought), so I started looking back at my notes and I heavily reformatted them to a more universal layout. I discovered some of my segments could be combined into larger segments as they had next to no luck involved in some of them.

I have decided to push 25 segments in this run, no more no less. I spent most of the night justifying every save down to the last second making sure they were worth it. You would be surprised how much faster it is to struggle through something than to save halfway through. I am also about to map out the world library as it is the only one I haven't attempted to draw in paint yet.

Equinox

2014-02-25 11:43:59 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I drew/routed The World Library and there's only a small handful of things left to do before I start recording the real deal. Mainly its setting aside time to get a lot of attempts on Vampire Evil King but if I can figure him out then everything after him should be simple. The routing for everything else hasn't changed in over a week even after re-examination every night so that's a good sign.

I won't be doing much this week as I have to study for a midterm but I will definitely be brainstorming during the day. Roll Eyes

Equinox

2014-03-15 04:43:19 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

It's been almost 3 weeks since an update so I figured I would say something. All of my teachers decided to give me the hardest work of the semester over Spring Break(which I get right now). On a side note, coming back to this thread and looking at Dabbit's profile leads me to believe he isn't working on this anymore.

I could start recording the actual run itself any time I want even though the last 2 bosses aren't completely routed yet. My recording settings passed a quality test with flying colors and I have backed up the footage I already had for demonstration/archival purposes. Truth be told I have not gotten a good block of time over the past 2 weeks to practice VEK, however, I did confirm viable strategies with most possible party combinations for Beiloune. I will have time this week though.

Equinox

2014-03-27 08:59:55 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

There were some pretty significant breakthroughs last night. First off, the possible groups for Vampire Evil King and Beiloune have been narrowed down to 2, from 3. Secondly, I was practicing the World Library and I learned how to get through it all in a single segment without getting any random encounters! Lastly, I can safely say that every possible bit of shopping in the run is sound, even the Highlands Village stuff which was somewhat of a thorn in my side for the past 2 months.

Equinox

2014-03-29 07:30:46 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I just beat Beiloune and Vampire Evil King with this new group that I had never used before, and it's a keeper! This group is fine tuned to make Vampire Evil King much easier, though there is a lot more luck pushing on Beiloune. With this group, Vampire Evil King will be sub 4:00, and Beiloune should be close to 6:00. I can finally start recording the real run now, and due to my estimates this should be close to a 4 hour run with a lot of long segments, especially if they involve running around outdoors.

Equinox

2014-04-21 02:28:38 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I keep saying to myself "Go back and shave every last second off of the last few fights!" So that is what I have been up to: Making sure I have PEK and VEK down to the very last move, or should I say ability now that the characters are figured out. I guess it's because I'm waiting until I have time to record the run all in one go without juggling multiple parts of the game. The last thing I would want would be to mix up footage or save files. Just the fear of that fills me with dread, besides I have found a few things out about PEK that were kind of interesting, in fact I managed to improve my old time on him by about 15 seconds.

Kefka14

Edit history:

Kefka14: 2014-04-21 03:37:36 am

2014-04-21 03:20:41 am

I am so excited to see this game be ran. It is literally one of my top favorite games. I have played it through multiple times and I have even went 100% a few of those times.

I wouldn't mind picking up running this game to be honest. Have you been keeping notes? Also, how long till you have a full run down? Just curious. Best of luck! So hype for this.

Equinox

Edit history:

Equinox: 2014-04-21 04:00:24 am

2014-04-21 03:58:31 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

The run is down really, it's just some nitpicking towards the end and to be honest there isn't much left to do in terms of planning. I have incredibly detailed notes and the recording specs have been approved already via quality test. The run is coming soon and it should be very entertaining to watch if you have played it. I'd give it a few months, college is getting out very soon.

Kefka14

2014-04-21 04:00:43 am

Awesome! Looking forward to it! Would you mind to share your notes at some point? Also, are you doing SS?

Equinox

Edit history:

Equinox: 2014-04-21 04:02:12 am

2014-04-21 04:01:11 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I am doing a segmented run and I will be more than happy to share the notes when I submit.

Edit: Oh wait...SS? I have some notes on that I could give you.

Kefka14

2014-04-21 04:01:59 am

Great! I'll be watching for it. I'd like to tackle a SS of this game at some point. I've been itching to learn an RPG and this seems like a good one given my love for it!

Equinox

Edit history:

Equinox: 2014-04-21 04:09:07 am

Equinox: 2014-04-21 04:08:26 am

Equinox: 2014-04-21 04:07:24 am

2014-04-21 04:06:00 am

Obsessicus Parrotus

I have some SS notes I could give you now, in fact Dabbit had a few things on that I think before he dropped it (Look up). Due the linear fashion of the game the essential routing part does not change, however the probable loss of some money might lead to a little grinding. The character's abilities can usually compensate for some gear/level shortage but lead to some slightly longer fights. Rosalyn abuse will be absolute key in a SS, but I haven't had to do that due to the resetting factor of my segmented run. You will no doubt have to drop burst for focus fire on boss adds too. I think he recommended buying nuts in Tenel at the start of the game as well. The first 2 bosses are easy as hell with nuts in a SS (Again I actually push no healing in mine).

Kefka14

2014-04-21 04:09:46 am

Alright. If you like you can share them via PM. Obviously SS will have to play it safe in some parts of the game. I imagine the whole run would be a bit more generous with the healing items/spells. How long would you estimate that SS would come out to?