lego bionicle (gba)

2015-10-18 01:02:21 pm

I wrote a big long thing on my feelings on the game, and then my browser closed. I'm to lazy to write it again, so here is a summarresy.
I think it does have a lot of inteting stuff in it (that doesn't make it a good game though, just an interesting one). It does a horrible job at hinting how to use things, and how to solve puzzles. I don't know anyone who figured out how to beat the scorpion boss on there first go without just getting lucky.
Yes they could have based an entire game around the launcher. And they SHOULD HAVE. They had way to large a scope when designing this game. They tried to create lots of interesting puzzles, but only succeed in making frustrating ones because they never teach the player how to do anything in enough granularity. I really wanted this game to be good as a kid, and still do now. Thats why I speedrun it. It's a terrible casual game, but for speedrunning it's flaws create some interesting speed tech.

As for the moving the staff though, time and money shouldn't have been a concern. That shouldn't be more then deleting two lines of code and placing them somewhere else.

I  wrote a big long thing on my feelings on the game, and then my browser closed. I'm to lazy to write it again, so here is a summarresy.
I think it does have a lot of inteting stuff in it (that doesn't make it a good game though, just an interesting one). It does a horrible job at hinting how to use things, and how to solve puzzles. I don't know anyone who figured out how to beat the scorpion boss on there first go without just getting lucky. 
Yes they could have based an entire game around the launcher. And they SHOULD HAVE. They had way to large a scope when designing this game. They tried to create lots of interesting puzzles, but only succeed in making frustrating ones because they never teach the player how to do anything in enough granularity. I really wanted this game to be good as a kid, and still do now. Thats why I speedrun it. It's a terrible casual game, but for speedrunning it's flaws create some interesting speed tech.

As for the moving the staff though, time and money shouldn't have been a concern. That shouldn't be more then deleting two lines of code and placing them somewhere else.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-18 01:33:33 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-18 01:08:05 pm

2015-10-18 01:07:12 pm

It isn't, but my point is at that point in development, are you really going to care? I think that towards the end of development, they gave up on their ideas and got sloppy.

EDIT: If you're writing a paper that's due tomorrow, are you really going to notice the period that's out of place? Not really.

EDIT2: I'm not debating that it's a bad game, but of all things, does an item being given long after it's useful make that little sense?

Vibex

2015-10-19 12:10:39 pm

Yeah, your right.

I may have come of a bit agressive, and I didn't mean too. I just like debating games with people (I'm a game dev student).

Vibex

2015-10-19 12:12:19 pm

Also I just realized I never specified the timeing for the game. It starts as soon as you click a on the customize your bionicle stage, and ends as soon as the final cutscene starts. I can also upload my splits if you would like. My sum of best is about 50 seconds faster then the current record, and thats without any of the launcher tricks you found (still haven't mastered those).

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-19 04:57:30 pm

2015-10-19 03:37:39 pm

I have no need for them at the moment.

Have you not had the time to look into them? If you need help I can make videos with input display and stuff.

EDIT: Uploaded a new part of the tas, the river crossing strat in Onu-Koro might be faster for real time.

idk how hard it would be

Vibex

2015-10-19 07:29:15 pm

No, I just haven't done any full runs in a bit. Lots of practice, but no completed runs that i've tried the launcher stuff in yet.
Nice work on the TAS. And your much better at routing then me. Think I'll have to go with that route in my attempts. Also really wish I could do a run without picking up the staff. To much RNG though.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-19 07:47:58 pm

2015-10-19 07:35:46 pm

I haven't really encountered any RNG in Onu-Koro. The enemies seem to only move when you get close enough to them. If the enemies were random, I wouldn't have been able to do what I did without the staff. I had actually done the inputs with the staff obtained, and copy pasted them into the movie without the staff. If there was RNG involved, it wouldn't have worked. However manipulation of enemies might not be as viable for humans.

EDIT: A bunch of the vertical/horizontal jumps I did were curve jumps so really the diagonal ones are probably the ones that you need to pay attention to.

Vibex

Edit history:

Vibex: 2015-10-19 08:57:25 pm

2015-10-19 08:57:12 pm

Yeah I guess RNG wasn't the right term, but for a human runner it might as well be. Though if there is no RNG, you might be able to learn some ways to manipulate them.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-20 05:52:55 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-20 05:47:00 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-20 04:41:50 pm

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TheMG2: 2015-10-20 04:12:44 pm

2015-10-20 03:02:10 pm

Uploaded a new part of the tas, after I finish this, I might make a human theory tas to see if I can come up with more things that are applicable for real time.

EDIT: I don't think skipping the staff saves much time at all, probably just frames.

Also the rock boss is really laggy, if you ever end up skipping him, after you let go of the last rock to open whenua's cage, I'd recommend trying to get it offscreen as soon as possible.

EDIT 2: I did some very rough timings (I judged from video lengths and certain timestamps, and the tas is currently about 35 seconds ahead of your fastest run. Of course, your run is missing some strats in the beginning, but a lot of the time saved is from better movement and avoiding more enemies. Movement really matters.

Though of course tas can do stuff like curve jumps all the time. Tongue

EDIT 3: Just came to an important realization.

Runs done on emulator should never be directly compared to runs on console. Keyboard makes curve jumps significantly easier compared to console. Of course if you are using a controller, you would not have this problem, but there is no way to verify a controller is being used.

Yes using a gamecube controller you might be able to get a similar effect, but I think that would be way more awkward to do than simply using a keyboard.

EDIT 4: Another thing I realized is that curve jumps should be significantly easier with lag. If you are holding nothing or a diagonal input during a lag frame, it will not count against your curve jump, I will see about trying to exploit this.

Uploaded a new part of the tas, after I finish this, I might make a human theory tas to see if I can come up with more things that are applicable for real time.

EDIT: I don't think skipping the staff saves much time at all, probably just frames.

Also the rock boss is really laggy, if you ever end up skipping him, after you let go of the last rock to open whenua's cage, I'd recommend trying to get it offscreen as soon as possible.

EDIT 2: I did some very rough timings (I judged from video lengths and certain timestamps, and the tas is currently about 35 seconds ahead of your fastest run. Of course, your run is missing some strats in the beginning, but a lot of the time saved is from better movement and avoiding more enemies. Movement really matters.

Though of course tas can do stuff like curve jumps all the time. :P

EDIT 3: Just came to an important realization.

Runs done on emulator should never be directly compared to runs on console. Keyboard makes curve jumps significantly easier compared to console. Of course if you are using a controller, you would not have this problem, but there is no way to verify a controller is being used.

Yes using a gamecube controller you might be able to get a similar effect, but I think that would be way more awkward to do than simply using a keyboard.

EDIT 4: Another thing I realized is that curve jumps should be significantly easier with lag. If you are holding nothing or a diagonal input during a lag frame, it will not count against your curve jump, I will see about trying to exploit this.

Vibex

2015-10-20 06:03:50 pm

At this point I don't think skipping the rockmonster is a good idea in RTA, because he gives you a health up, and the run is already really low on health since we skip so many levels. I already pick up the healthup in Po-Koro by breaking the rocks if I don't already have full health. Otherwise it's almost impossible to do the bug fight.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-20 08:04:08 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-20 07:47:21 pm

2015-10-20 07:43:02 pm

I don't know if you know this, but this game is CHEAP

Also this strategy might be pretty fast:

EDIT: Setup:

EDIT2: from my testing it seems a little inconsistent as to whether you get the plant warp. idk why

TheMG2

Edit history:

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2015-10-21 01:46:02 pm

And I just found a new glitch, Interrupted launches:

You can interrupt launches with the pause button.

By pausing at a certain point, weird things happen. The video doesn't do a good job of showing it, but if you are over land, you will continue heading in that direction until you hit something you cannot walk through. Note that if you are moving in a diagonal direction, that x and y are treated separately, you can still head in x direction even if you can no longer head in y. If you are not over land, you will just stop. You will be unable to turn or do anything outside of using the launcher again, in which your previous momentum before the pause will be reapplied.

I'm not sure if this will be useful. More experimentation is needed.

EDIT: If you pause early you can have something completely different happen.

EDIT 2: Late pause flings:

For late pauses your speed prior to the pause is maintained. This could be very useful, but it's very hard to control. If something is designed to change your direction, it will send you flying in that direction. In order to get out you need to fire and use the launcher again.

This is very hard to control. Setups will be needed.

Now I will make a video about what happens when you pause early.

EDIT 3: Early pause:

Relatively simple, when you pause early, you simply stop. However, if you pull out your launcher again while moving, you will continue moving in that direction. It might take your speed prior to pulling out the launcher again, not sure.

You don't seem able to move as fast.

EDIT 4: Drill seems to be able to cancel out of the late pause state as does the ice pick.

EDIT 5: Grabbing and using items seem to also work in addition to pulling out the launcher again for short pause.

EDIT 6: If you want to cancel a late pause state without the above mentioned drill or ice pick and without actually drawing towards something else, you can do the same kind of input that you would teleport an enemy with: launcher -> let go of launcher -> hold launcher until it is fired.

EDIT 7: I don't think "early pause" is caused by how soon you press it, I think it is caused by your speed at the time.

EDIT 8: getting hit by enemies while in the slow pause state can cause you to get stuck in the fast pause state.

And I just found a new glitch, Interrupted launches:

https://youtu.be/4mE-WBXl3Kw

You can interrupt launches with the pause button.

By pausing at a certain point, weird things happen. The video doesn't do a good job of showing it, but if you are over land, you will continue heading in that direction until you hit something you cannot walk through. Note that if you are moving in a diagonal direction, that x and y are treated separately, you can still head in x direction even if you can no longer head in y. If you are not over land, you will just stop. You will be unable to turn or do anything outside of using the launcher again, in which your previous momentum before the pause will be reapplied.

I'm not sure if this will be useful. More experimentation is needed.

EDIT: If you pause early you can have something completely different happen.

EDIT 2: Late pause flings:
[hidden]https://youtu.be/yOMPkWwXVtQ[/hidden]

For late pauses your speed prior to the pause is maintained. This could be very useful, but it's very hard to control. If something is designed to change your direction, it will send you flying in that direction. In order to get out you need to fire and use the launcher again.

This is very hard to control. Setups will be needed.

Now I will make a video about what happens when you pause early.

EDIT 3: Early pause:
[hidden]https://youtu.be/qRWhIZi5C1Q[/hidden]

Relatively simple, when you pause early, you simply stop. However, if you pull out your launcher again while moving, you will continue moving in that direction. It might take your speed prior to pulling out the launcher again, not sure.

You don't seem able to move as fast.

EDIT 4: Drill seems to be able to cancel out of the late pause state as does the ice pick.

EDIT 5: Grabbing and using items seem to also work in addition to pulling out the launcher again for short pause.

EDIT 6: If you want to cancel a late pause state without the above mentioned drill or ice pick and without actually drawing towards something else, you can do the same kind of input that you would teleport an enemy with: launcher -> let go of launcher -> hold launcher until it is fired.

EDIT 7: I don't think "early pause" is caused by how soon you press it, I think it is caused by your speed at the time.

EDIT 8: getting hit by enemies while in the slow pause state can cause you to get stuck in the fast pause state.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-21 05:59:19 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-21 05:34:59 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-21 05:14:39 pm

2015-10-21 04:28:01 pm

CAN I PLEASE GO TWO MINUTES WITHOUT FINDING A NEW GLITCH I DON'T UNDERSTAND:

In case you didn't notice there, I ended up out of bounds at the end. The pauses are probably unrelated, they just let me let go of the button.

Another vid:

EDIT: ????

EDIT 2: this tile isn't supposed to be like this (caused by lavaboard launcher):

EDIT 3: Too bad I don't know how to speed this up:

Vibex

2015-10-21 06:14:29 pm

Okay so I'm super confused by everything in that last post.

TheMG2

2015-10-21 06:21:21 pm

Quote from Vibex:

Okay so I'm super confused by everything in that last post.

Same.

How I trigger this glitch is very simple: shoot the launcher (doesn't matter if you're on the lavaboard yet), when you're on the lavaboard activate the launcher and hold the button down for a while. If you don't feel like doing that, pausing, letting go of the launcher button, and unpausing will allow you to not have to hold the launcher button.

Now what I think is happening is that you are going through walls in the direction that you would be headed in. If you appear in a spot, and deactivate the launcher, you seem to be there "for real". You can still hit things though (berries and enemies). There seems to be a lot more to it and I am extremely confused myself.

I'd need to study the game's memory in order to figure out what is going on.

If you have any questions about the post before the lavaboard launcher glitch about the interrupted launcher state, I can maybe answer those.

Vibex

2015-10-21 06:31:04 pm

Naw, understand the previous stuff. I'm gonna play around with that lavaboard glitch and see if i can figure anything out myself.

TheMG2

2015-10-21 06:31:46 pm

Every time I think I'm going to understand this game, it decides to prove me wrong.

Vibex

2015-10-21 06:32:43 pm

Haha, so true.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-21 06:57:30 pm

2015-10-21 06:51:38 pm

Whatever this is, it doesn't seem really fast I can tell you that much. Though the fact that the tile changed is really curious. I've had it change other tiles as well, but didn't really screenshot them. I wonder if it causes some problems with memory.

EDIT: that second video I posted seemed somewhat fast though.

Vibex

2015-10-21 07:13:58 pm

Yeah, I/m really unsure what determines the time. I've tried it in a bunch of spots, and there are some where nothing ever seems to happen. Have been sitting at one for 5 minutes now, and nothing at all has happened.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 12:17:29 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 11:56:38 am

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TheMG2: 2015-10-22 11:24:22 am

TheMG2: 2015-10-21 11:30:11 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-21 09:29:29 pm

2015-10-21 08:39:33 pm

I'm guessing that means that there is nowhere to go to. I noticed when I end up out of bounds I end up in a pool of lava oob. It could also mean that you're moving or something while at the spot. I noticed I'm not able to do it usually unless the lavaboard is relatively still.

EDIT: The future of movement (TAS):

EDIT 2: I propose calling this a launcher slide. I did a slide like this on console a couple times, you can probably do it relatively consistently with enough practice.

EDIT 3: Ga-Koro Entrance 1 Launcher Slides (TAS):

I'm looking ahead to see what teleports I should set up while I'm in Onu-Koro. With this route in the first part of the entrance, I doubt I would need to teleport anything in this screen. I don't know how viable this particular strat would be for RTA.

EDIT 4: This use of the lavaboard launcher glitch might save time?

Maybe?

EDIT 5: It seems that the ostrich enemy thing can block you therefore there might be an RNG element in this.

I'm guessing that means that there is nowhere to go to. I noticed when I end up out of bounds I end up in a pool of lava oob. It could also mean that you're moving or something while at the spot. I noticed I'm not able to do it usually unless the lavaboard is relatively still.

EDIT: The future of movement (TAS):
[hidden]https://youtu.be/D2zECvlGH6I[/hidden]

EDIT 2: I propose calling this a launcher slide. I did a slide like this on console a couple times, you can probably do it relatively consistently with enough practice.

EDIT 3: Ga-Koro Entrance 1 Launcher Slides (TAS):
[hidden]https://youtu.be/ytL03fBHMeI[/hidden]

I'm looking ahead to see what teleports I should set up while I'm in Onu-Koro. With this route in the first part of the entrance, I doubt I would need to teleport anything in this screen. I don't know how viable this particular strat would be for RTA.

EDIT 4: This use of the lavaboard launcher glitch might save time?
[hidden]https://youtu.be/IoZEGaoL9RI[/hidden]

Maybe?

EDIT 5: It seems that the ostrich enemy thing can block you therefore there might be an RNG element in this.

Vibex

2015-10-22 02:19:13 pm

Yeah, after 40 ish seconds I assumed nothing would happen, but stranger things have happened in this game, so I decided to wait anyway.
How were you able to go that fast with the slide? When I tried it I was going super slow no matter what I did.
Where is that spot for the last glitch? I haven't spent much time exploring ta-koro, so i don't know it like the back of my hand yet.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 07:57:59 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 07:44:26 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 04:25:09 pm

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2015-10-22 02:25:28 pm

Were you getting speeds similar to this vid? Or were they even slower? I got the speeds I did by pausing while moving at a high speed while using the launcher. I can show inputs if you want them. I'm guessing speed and direction at the time when you pause is what determines it.

Lavaboard glitch location is here:

Instead of heading down right, you head up right.

EDIT: Dang it, the video isn't going to the right point, it should be 13:07 in the video.

EDIT2: Also the lavaboard glitch does take over a minute sometimes. I think it depends on the distance between you and the destination, but there could be more to it.
EDIT3: ~~For the Ga-Koro slide, it seems pretty important to have the projectile on the lower end of the bush. You can do this by running into the bush.~~ I might be wrong on this.

EDIT4: The window for you to hit pause in that 1st ga-koro slide I did seems to be one frame. The lesser the distance from the object, the smaller the window. Unless you're doing an orbit.

EDIT 5: Relatively easy launcher slide:

EDIT 6: Po-Koro Entrance Slide 1 (no tools)

You could probably find tons of places in Po-Koro to slide.

EDIT 7: That other usage of Launcher Interrupting:

[size="14"][/size]Were you getting speeds similar to this [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRWhIZi5C1Ql]vid[/url]? Or were they even slower? I got the speeds I did by pausing while moving at a high speed while using the launcher. I can show inputs if you want them. I'm guessing speed and direction at the time when you pause is what determines it.

Lavaboard glitch location is here:
[hidden]https://youtu.be/-zwRmH4EGQM?t=13m7s[/hidden]

Instead of heading down right, you head up right.

EDIT: Dang it, the video isn't going to the right point, it should be 13:07 in the video.

EDIT2: Also the lavaboard glitch does take over a minute sometimes. I think it depends on the distance between you and the destination, but there could be more to it.
EDIT3: [s]For the Ga-Koro slide, it seems pretty important to have the projectile on the lower end of the bush. You can do this by running into the bush.[/s] I might be wrong on this.

EDIT4: The window for you to hit pause in that 1st ga-koro slide I did seems to be one frame. The lesser the distance from the object, the smaller the window. Unless you're doing an orbit.

EDIT 5: Relatively easy launcher slide:
[hidden]https://youtu.be/XV9AnmntmlQ[/hidden]

EDIT 6: Po-Koro Entrance Slide 1 (no tools)
[hidden]https://youtu.be/mGOA7KaiUCA[/hidden]

You could probably find tons of places in Po-Koro to slide.

EDIT 7: That other usage of Launcher Interrupting:
[hidden]https://youtu.be/pazaqZZYSFk[/hidden]

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-10-23 09:45:33 am

TheMG2: 2015-10-23 12:07:41 am

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 10:07:34 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 09:20:02 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 09:14:46 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 08:59:25 pm

TheMG2: 2015-10-22 08:52:42 pm

2015-10-22 08:51:33 pm

Theory on how speed works in this game: When you are running up against an object or sliding into a wall, your speed doesn't actually get set to zero. I'm not sure why, but I believe that the game has some other way of preventing your position from changing that doesn't involve setting your speed to zero.

This explains a couple things:

Curve jumps against the edge of the water: because your speed is still treated as though you're walking.

Launcher sliding: Your speed actually gets locked (unless something else changes it) and it explains why you just start flying again once you're past a wall.

Lavaboard glitch: I believe that when getting pulled into the wall your speed is actually increasing despite being unable to change position. Eventually it becomes so much that the game sends you through the wall into the first area that it sees fit. I think that when you get sent backwards or whatever is actually the game changing directions, just like a normal launch. Why do tiles sometimes change? I have no idea. Why do you not always seem to go in a straight line? I have no idea.

EDIT: This also explains why you bonk off of things: It's more than just a cute effect it's how the game keeps you from going through solid objects.

EDIT2: Another launcher slide:

EDIT3: I would not recommend launcher sliding in the room with Onewa. It makes you bouncy and that's not good when trying to one cycle.

EDIT 4: You should obviously stop sooner then I did:

EDIT 5: Apparently you can slide into health upgrades with the launcher (not launcher slide, just regular momentum). That makes the launcher jumping kinda pointless unless you're trying to quickly kill yourself by jumping in lava or something.

EDIT 6: You can skip both the ice pick and the lavaboard in a low% run. You can get a temporary lavaboard if you fall into the lava out of an interrupted launch over lava. There are a bunch of other things of use as well. Once you make it to the end section, you will have lavaboard on your r slot, however, if you go to inventory, you will see it is not there and then when you go back, your r button will be on fruits.

Theory on how speed works in this game: When you are running up against an object or sliding into a wall, your speed doesn't actually get set to zero. I'm not sure why, but I believe that the game has some other way of preventing your position from changing that doesn't involve setting your speed to zero.

This explains a couple things:

Curve jumps against the edge of the water: because your speed is still treated as though you're walking.

Launcher sliding: Your speed actually gets locked (unless something else changes it) and it explains why you just start flying again once you're past a wall.

Lavaboard glitch: I believe that when getting pulled into the wall your speed is actually increasing despite being unable to change position. Eventually it becomes so much that the game sends you through the wall into the first area that it sees fit. I think that when you get sent backwards or whatever is actually the game changing directions, just like a normal launch. Why do tiles sometimes change? I have no idea. Why do you not always seem to go in a straight line? I have no idea.

EDIT: This also explains why you bonk off of things: It's more than just a cute effect it's how the game keeps you from going through solid objects.

EDIT2: Another launcher slide:
[hidden]https://youtu.be/X-0z__v7IAA[/hidden]

EDIT3: I would not recommend launcher sliding in the room with Onewa. It makes you bouncy and that's not good when trying to one cycle.

EDIT 4: You should obviously stop sooner then I did: 
[hidden]https://youtu.be/iPa-wH0cqTY[/hidden]

EDIT 5: Apparently you can slide into health upgrades with the launcher (not launcher slide, just regular momentum). That makes the launcher jumping kinda pointless unless you're trying to quickly kill yourself by jumping in lava or something.

EDIT 6: You can skip both the ice pick and the lavaboard in a low% run. You can get a temporary lavaboard if you fall into the lava out of an interrupted launch over lava. There are a bunch of other things of use as well. Once you make it to the end section, you will have lavaboard on your r slot, however, if you go to inventory, you will see it is not there and then when you go back, your r button will be on fruits.

Vibex

2015-10-23 10:53:50 am

I like those po-koro slides. Once I'm done with midterms I'll get back to actually contributing, but man you are making some good finds. I'm still pooring a lot of my time into finding a way to clip into/through walls, because it would allow for such massive time saves. No real breakthroughs yet though.
A low percent run would be interesting, though I don't think I'll ever run it. I think once I get the any% to around 14:30 (I think that is the best time with perfect play and all the new tech you found), I think I'll start running 100%.