Zelda II: The Adventure of Link

Heidrage

2012-09-22 05:53:17 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

Quote from PJ:

After all, they just banned using the crouch stab in Ocarina of Time speed runs.

what

Quote from PJ:

Yup. Because you can abuse the way that it determines crouch stab power, they thought it was a glitch and banned it. GG.

That is stupid... I dont mean to derail this thread, but why take away elements from a game that makes the game what it truly is?

zallard1

2012-09-22 05:55:56 pm

B+Left, Left, Up+B, ★

Because Twin Galaxies.

DK28

2012-09-23 12:02:47 am

General Kong - Bullets and Bananas

^ LOL. Can't argue with science.

Heidrage

2012-09-23 12:14:34 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

With the new strats, has a full rout been developed yet?

Svenne

2012-09-23 04:05:45 am

Smörgåsbord

Quote from Heidrage:

With the new strats, has a full rout been developed yet?

Yeah, go to the previous page in this thread. Atleast that seems to work for that category!

Solairflaire

2012-09-23 05:57:27 am

Quote from Heidrage:

With the new strats, has a full rout been developed yet?

To answer this more directly, assuming you're talking about the major skips category:

Magic Container south of start (Up+A maybe?)
Trophy
Jump Spell
Bagu
Hammer
Magic Container by Hammer (Up+A) (Have at least 2-4-1)
Medicine Bottle (Up+A) (2-4-3)
Fairy / Downstab
Glove
(Maybe kill Helmethead) (if you don't kill Helmethead, fairy glitch in block room just before the glove)
Raft (Up+A) (2-5-3)
Magic Container on Maze Island
Go to Darunia in east Hyrule and activate the screen lock glitch
Follow Inzult's video for beating the game

Svenne

2012-09-23 07:26:37 am

Smörgåsbord

Quote from moooh:

You probably knew this already but just to make things clear SDA would not accept "glitchless" runs as separate categories.
By all means do keep planning for running it casually if you think you'll be having an audience for it. It should probably be in its own topic in the casual board in that case, as not to clutter the main threads with it.

I guess this applies for every game.

Arctic_Eagle

Edit history:

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-23 09:34:40 am

2012-09-23 09:31:44 am

It doesn't apply for all games Svenne. E.g. go to Wizards & Warriors in the game list: http://speeddemosarchive.com/WizardsAndWarriors.html

See Category note: "The level 1 warp glitch counts as a separate category".

The run is also labeled best time with glitches. Hope this makes things a little more clear.

presjpolk

2012-09-23 10:13:41 am

HELLO!

I said I'd bow out but I have to register a complaint. Skipping Bagu must be banned.

Smiley

UraniumAnchor

2012-09-23 01:55:16 pm

Not a walrus

He just meant "glitchless" in general. It has to be significant in some way other than simply limiting yourself arbitrarily. Skipping a large chunk of the game can count as significant.

Svenne

2012-09-24 05:34:49 am

Smörgåsbord

Quote from Arctic_Eagle:

It doesn't apply for all games Svenne.

That is good news! So we can keep the current categories and if someone decides to do a run with the the new glitches, it would become new categories.

Arctic_Eagle

2012-09-24 08:51:36 am

Well, there's a reason why there's uncertainty around the fairy glitch to do the Thunderbird skip. I would say it's a borderline case if it qualifies as a separate glitch category at sda or not. I'm leaning towards a separate glitch category for it of course. You jump "off screen" and cast fairy. Doing that will usually trigger crazier things than the Thunderbird skip, like getting stuck somewhere. I have to say Solairflaire has made a pretty good case for it, explaining how the technique works inside of palaces (what he knows yet).

It's obviously an awesome find, but it won't be difficult to obsolete my Zelda II runs at sda if you can skip thunder and thunderbird in those categories, that's for sure.

feasel

2012-09-24 01:06:33 pm

difficult and stupidly random

I think everyone pretty much agrees there needs to be a category that includes large skips and one that doesn't. It's really just a question of whether people think it's better to say that all instances of fairy-glitching/out-of-bounds/wrong-warps/whatever should be exclusive to the "large skips" category, or whether we want to pick and choose certain glitches in certain places (e.g. fairy-glitch at darunia, but not fairy glitch at thunderbird).

To me it seems easier to just lump all the glitches together, so as more glitches are found we won't have to keep coming back and updating the category rules to control which glitches can be used where. But that's just one guy's opinion.

scaryice

2012-09-24 03:10:34 pm

Quote from Arctic_Eagle:

Well, there's a reason why there's uncertainty around the fairy glitch to do the Thunderbird skip. I would say it's a borderline case if it qualifies as a separate glitch category at sda or not. I'm leaning towards a separate glitch category for it of course. You jump "off screen" and cast fairy. Doing that will usually trigger crazier things than the Thunderbird skip, like getting stuck somewhere. I have to say Solairflaire has made a pretty good case for it, explaining how the technique works inside of palaces (what he knows yet).

It's obviously an awesome find, but it won't be difficult to obsolete my Zelda II runs at sda if you can skip thunder and thunderbird in those categories, that's for sure.

A little history lesson:

Fairy glitch is not a new find, it's been known about since the game came out. It was even in Nintendo Power back in 1989, along with glitch town. Knowing exactly how many times to enter the door and where to go to break the game and skip straight to the end, that's a TAS find which dates to 2005. However, the glitched TASes were always able to skip Thunderbird just from the speed increase caused by pressing L+R. So because of that, it's easy to see why it appears no one discovered the non-L+R method until now. Also, I'd imagine being a couple screens away from the boss in a palace where it makes no sense to come in without everything you need had something to do with it as well.

[quote="Arctic_Eagle"]Well, there's a reason why there's uncertainty around the fairy glitch to do the Thunderbird skip. I would say it's a borderline case if it qualifies as a separate glitch category at sda or not. I'm leaning towards a separate glitch category for it of course. You jump "off screen" and cast fairy. Doing that will usually trigger crazier things than the Thunderbird skip, like getting stuck somewhere. I have to say Solairflaire has made a pretty good case for it, explaining how the technique works inside of palaces (what he knows yet).

It's obviously an awesome find, but it won't be difficult to obsolete my Zelda II runs at sda if you can skip thunder and thunderbird in those categories, that's for sure.[/quote]

A little history lesson:

Fairy glitch is not a new find, it's been known about since the game came out. It was even in Nintendo Power back in 1989, along with glitch town. Knowing exactly how many times to enter the door and where to go to break the game and skip straight to the end, that's a TAS find which dates to 2005. However, the glitched TASes were always able to skip Thunderbird just from the speed increase caused by pressing L+R. So because of that, it's easy to see why it appears no one discovered the non-L+R method until now. Also, I'd imagine being a couple screens away from the boss in a palace where it makes no sense to come in without everything you need had something to do with it as well.

Arctic_Eagle

2012-09-24 03:49:19 pm

I meant that the Thunderbird skip was an awesome find. But thanks for the history lesson, I didn't know all of that. I've tried to use the fairy glitch before the Thunderbird skip was found by Solairflaire, don't worry, but I've never found anything nearly as useful as that. I haven't seen all of inzult's Zelda II TAS'es, but I saw and enjoyed one he did with Rising Tempest, more or less glitchless, years ago. After seeing the Eastern Hyrule/Barrier skip in this thread that he presented most humourously, I totally accepted that I'm nowhere near as good as him on emulator experimenting, and decided I should rather concentrate on what I do best when it comes to Zelda II.

inzult

2012-09-24 04:36:08 pm

Don't sell yourself short! The more people who are trying stuff out, the more likely something cool will be found!

scaryice

2012-09-25 04:46:18 am

Just managed to do the healer glitch on console. This could get even more broken.

Arctic_Eagle

Edit history:

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-26 06:47:20 am

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-26 06:46:28 am

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-26 06:45:57 am

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-25 05:04:25 pm

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-25 05:03:17 pm

2012-09-25 07:53:28 am

Thanks inzult, love your attitude/philosophy!

I've just watched Solairflaire's Zelda II 100 % and I was very impressed. From my experience with Zelda II 100 % extreme rules (TG rules), I know that doing Death Mountain before 1st palace in that category costs minutes for me, so I'm not sure it would be faster to do Death Mountain first in the 100 % sda category. I'm leaning towards that it's faster doing the 1st palace first, but I'm not sure. Your 6th palace boss fight is so badass! Loved the levelling, and it immediately gave me ideas on how to survive Death Valley + Great Palace without the life spell in the no deaths/no warps variation, with slight alteration to your levelling, thanks. It was also cool to see the alternate great palace route being used in a console run (and honestly, if I should rate the difficulty of that boost compared to the immediate jump to get the upward stab, I would rate the great palace boost a lot, lot more difficult to perform, at least it is for me). And I see that using pausing on every overworld map shadow enemy encounter is now officially okay, and nobody can blame me, thanks Wink

Awesome run!

Thanks inzult, love your attitude/philosophy!

I've just watched Solairflaire's Zelda II 100 % and I was very impressed. From my experience with Zelda II 100 % extreme rules (TG rules), I know that doing Death Mountain before 1st palace in that category costs minutes for me, so I'm not sure it would be faster to do Death Mountain first in the 100 % sda category. I'm leaning towards that it's faster doing the 1st palace first, but I'm not sure. Your 6th palace boss fight is so badass! Loved the levelling, and it immediately gave me ideas on how to survive Death Valley + Great Palace without the life spell in the no deaths/no warps variation, with slight alteration to your levelling, thanks. It was also cool to see the alternate great palace route being used in a console run (and honestly, if I should rate the difficulty of that boost compared to the immediate jump to get the upward stab, I would rate the great palace boost a lot, lot more difficult to perform, at least it is for me). And I see that using pausing on every overworld map shadow enemy encounter is now officially okay, and nobody can blame me, thanks ;) Awesome run!

feasel

Edit history:

feasel: 2012-09-26 04:24:01 pm

2012-09-26 04:04:48 pm

difficult and stupidly random

I beat the game in 34:21 using the glitched route with up+A.
http://www.twitch.tv/feasel/b/333561979

My XP earning strategies need a lot of work - there are far better ways to earn XP, and of course some lucky drops would help. A couple things: you definitely don't want to beat the palace 2 boss (or any bosses for that matter). I'd recommend resetting if you don't manage to get at least one 200-bag drop in death mountain, because that should be all you need to get attack level 3 which makes a big difference later on (tho is not strictly necessary). Magic and Life will also be level 3, so i'd aim to be 3/3/3 by the time i up+A at the death mountain magic container. One might also consider skipping life 3 (finishing death mountain at life 2) and picking up Life 3 in the medicine cave, but given that you're skipping the Life spell it's probably better to take Life 3 in death mountain just for the health refill. It means you need to rely on a 200-bag drop, but there's a 75% chance of that, so odds are pretty good.

Making 700 XP in palace 2 is easy if you get a 200-bag drop. Otherwise you have to go out of your way a little bit to earn some XP, and most likely you'd want to reset if you didn't get the 200 drop.

Making 1200 XP in palace 3 is a pain in the ass, whether or not you get favorable drops. I farm statues at the entrance (either 5 of them or 7). If the first large drop is a 200-bag then i stop the statue farming after 5 (and skip one of the two red iron knuckles that is trapped inside blocks just before the 2nd elevator). I find farming the statues to be about the same amount of time as fighting the two blue club-throwing guys, but other people might feel differently. I also skip the blue iron knuckle in the raft room, however it would probably be better to kill him (and skip one of the red iron-knuckles earlier).

Anyway, just to re-iterate, the XP earning strats you see me use in this video are very improvable, so i'm definitely not trying to claim that this is The Way To Go.

Also, you can skip one of the magic containers. You simply set up a blue potion drop on one of the little spikey enemies along the bridge in the room where you do the thunderbird skip. It's tricky, but definitely doable with enough practice. I've been able to do it when practicing on emulator, but i did not attempt it in this run. Honestly, this category is so easy that i assume we'll soon be at the point where the magic-container-skip becomes standard practice. I believe that skipping the maze island magic container saves more time than skipping the death mountain magic container, but i could be wrong. It's really close.

Also: I have 3 questions that hopefully somebody can answer:

(1)

Quote from SolairFlaire:

if you don't kill Helmethead, fairy glitch in block room just before the glove

What does fairy-glitching here accomplish? If it takes you some place where you can farm some fast XP then I could see it being helpful.

(2)

Quote from scaryice:

I also should mention that I found an improvement from Inzult's East Hyrule video. The second forced encounter on the way back from Darunia, you can exit to the left and it takes you to the southern cave. So no need to walk there.

Perhaps i'm misreading this, but i can not get this to work. For both of the fixed encounters it seems that if you exit to the left you end up back where you started. Please elaborate.

(3)
How do you do the healer glitch on console?

I beat the game in 34:21 using the glitched route with up+A.
http://www.twitch.tv/feasel/b/333561979

My XP earning strategies need a lot of work - there are far better ways to earn XP, and of course some lucky drops would help.  A couple things:  you definitely don't want to beat the palace 2 boss (or any bosses for that matter).  I'd recommend resetting if you don't manage to get at least one 200-bag drop in death mountain, because that should be all you need to get attack level 3 which makes a big difference later on (tho is not strictly necessary).  Magic and Life will also be level 3, so i'd aim to be 3/3/3 by the time i up+A at the death mountain magic container.  One might also consider skipping life 3 (finishing death mountain at life 2) and picking up Life 3 in the medicine cave, but given that you're skipping the Life spell it's probably better to take Life 3 in death mountain just for the health refill.  It means you need to rely on a 200-bag drop, but there's a 75% chance of that, so odds are pretty good.

Making 700 XP in palace 2 is easy if you get a 200-bag drop.  Otherwise you have to go out of your way a little bit to earn some XP, and most likely you'd want to reset if you didn't get the 200 drop.

Making 1200 XP in palace 3 is a pain in the ass, whether or not you get favorable drops.  I farm statues at the entrance (either 5 of them or 7).  If the first large drop is a 200-bag then i stop the statue farming after 5 (and skip one of the two red iron knuckles that is trapped inside blocks just before the 2nd elevator).  I find farming the statues to be about the same amount of time as fighting the two blue club-throwing guys, but other people might feel differently.  I also skip the blue iron knuckle in the raft room, however it would probably be better to kill him (and skip one of the red iron-knuckles earlier).

Anyway, just to re-iterate, the XP earning strats you see me use in this video are very improvable, so i'm definitely not trying to claim that this is The Way To Go.

Also, you can skip one of the magic containers.  You simply set up a blue potion drop on one of the little spikey enemies along the bridge in the room where you do the thunderbird skip.  It's tricky, but definitely doable with enough practice.  I've been able to do it when practicing on emulator, but i did not attempt it in this run.  Honestly, this category is so easy that i assume we'll soon be at the point where the magic-container-skip becomes standard practice.   I believe that skipping the maze island magic container saves more time than skipping the death mountain magic container, but i could be wrong.  It's really close.

Also: I have 3 questions that hopefully somebody can answer:

(1)
[quote="SolairFlaire"]if you don't kill Helmethead, fairy glitch in block room just before the glove[/quote]
What does fairy-glitching here accomplish?  If it takes you some place where you can farm some fast XP then I could see it being helpful.

(2)
[quote="scaryice"]I also should mention that I found an improvement from Inzult's East Hyrule video. The second forced encounter on the way back from Darunia, you can exit to the left and it takes you to the southern cave. So no need to walk there.[/quote]
Perhaps i'm misreading this, but i can not get this to work.  For both of the fixed encounters it seems that if you exit to the left you end up back where you started.  Please elaborate.

(3)
How do you do the healer glitch on console?

scaryice

Edit history:

scaryice: 2012-09-26 05:40:31 pm

2012-09-26 05:39:37 pm

Quote from feasel:

I beat the game in 34:21 using the glitched route with up+A.
http://www.twitch.tv/feasel/b/333561979

Nice job. As I mentioned before, my leveling stategy is as follows:

2-4-2 after the hammer
2-4-3 after water
2-5-3 after helmethead

For palace 2, I got both p-bags (150) and only killed 3 enemies: doomraddle aka the red mace thrower (50) + red ironknuckle (100) + helmethead (200). It takes maybe 2.5 minutes to finish the palace after the glove. I tried just farming the palace 3 statue instead, but it seemed to take longer.

Quote from feasel:

Perhaps i'm misreading this, but i can not get this to work. For both of the fixed encounters it seems that if you exit to the left you end up back where you started. Please elaborate.

You have to scroll it a bit to the right first like you do in so many other places.

Quote from feasel:

How do you do the healer glitch on console?

Same way as the TAS. Stand by the door, wait for her to cross to the left, and then talk twice at the right times.

I wouldn't spend a lot of time thinking about the current route because the healer glitch will obsolete it. What I need to do now is figure out a healer glitch route. Basically, that would be the same as the glitched TAS, except you can't get the downstab or skip Thunderbird because those require L+R.

It would make getting the hammer and glove much faster, and you could skip the raft entirely. You could pretty much skip every enemy in the game, so leveling would be interesting.

[quote="feasel"]I beat the game in 34:21 using the glitched route with up+A.
http://www.twitch.tv/feasel/b/333561979[/quote]

Nice job. As I mentioned before, my leveling stategy is as follows:

2-4-2 after the hammer
2-4-3 after water
2-5-3 after helmethead

For palace 2, I got both p-bags (150) and only killed 3 enemies: doomraddle aka the red mace thrower (50) + red ironknuckle (100) + helmethead (200). It takes maybe 2.5 minutes to finish the palace after the glove. I tried just farming the palace 3 statue instead, but it seemed to take longer.

[quote="feasel"]Perhaps i'm misreading this, but i can not get this to work.  For both of the fixed encounters it seems that if you exit to the left you end up back where you started.  Please elaborate.[/quote]

You have to scroll it a bit to the right first like you do in so many other places.

[quote="feasel"]How do you do the healer glitch on console?[/quote]

Same way as the TAS. Stand by the door, wait for her to cross to the left, and then talk twice at the right times.

I wouldn't spend a lot of time thinking about the current route because the healer glitch will obsolete it. What I need to do now is figure out a healer glitch route. Basically, that would be the same as the glitched TAS, except you can't get the downstab or skip Thunderbird because those require L+R.

It would make getting the hammer and glove much faster, and you could skip the raft entirely. You could pretty much skip every enemy in the game, so leveling would be interesting.

Svenne

2012-09-26 06:08:43 pm

Smörgåsbord

[quote="scaryice"]

Quote from feasel:

It would make getting the hammer and glove much faster, and you could skip the raft entirely. You could pretty much skip every enemy in the game, so leveling would be interesting.

Looking forward to this! No raft you say. So people going after glitched "wr" are doing it in a obsolete way (Barrierskip + Thunderskip?)

Solairflaire

Edit history:

Solairflaire: 2012-09-26 07:33:27 pm

2012-09-26 07:32:26 pm

Quote from feasel:

What does fairy-glitching here accomplish? If it takes you some place where you can farm some fast XP then I could see it being helpful.

Doing the fairy glitch here technically takes you to the entrance of Palace 1. However, if you exit there, it takes you to the palace 2 location on the world map. This would allow you to keep any xp you have left over from Palace 2, assuming it's worthwhile to keep what you have left. To do it, you need to cast fairy over where the falling blocks come down. If you have 4 magic at this point and gotten both magic containers, you should be able to cast Jump and Fairy.

Quote from Svenne:

Looking forward to this! No raft you say. So people going after glitched "wr" are doing it in a obsolete way (Barrierskip + Thunderskip?)

I wouldn't say the "Barrier Skip" and Thunderbird Skip are obsolete. You still need to do those to finish the game. Doing the Healer Glitch allows you to achieve Scroll Lock earlier (which is used to skip the Barrier). Scroll Lock is also what allows the wrong warping on the world map.

[quote="feasel"]What does fairy-glitching here accomplish?  If it takes you some place where you can farm some fast XP then I could see it being helpful.[/quote]

Doing the fairy glitch here technically takes you to the entrance of Palace 1. However, if you exit there, it takes you to the palace 2 location on the world map. This would allow you to keep any xp you have left over from Palace 2, assuming it's worthwhile to keep what you have left. To do it, you need to cast fairy over where the falling blocks come down. If you have 4 magic at this point and gotten both magic containers, you should be able to cast Jump and Fairy.

[quote="Svenne"]Looking forward to this! No raft you say. So people going after glitched "wr" are doing it in a obsolete way (Barrierskip + Thunderskip?)[/quote]

I wouldn't say the "Barrier Skip" and Thunderbird Skip are obsolete. You still need to do those to finish the game. Doing the Healer Glitch allows you to achieve Scroll Lock earlier (which is used to skip the Barrier). Scroll Lock is also what allows the wrong warping on the world map.

feasel

Edit history:

feasel: 2012-09-26 08:11:14 pm

feasel: 2012-09-26 08:10:52 pm

2012-09-26 08:09:24 pm

difficult and stupidly random

I think it would be a stretch to say that "people are going for the glitched world record". I spent an afternoon on it and scaryice did a test run. That's about it. More people should try beating the game with the Darunia fairy glitch, though, it's pretty fun and not that hard to do.

Quote from scaryice:

Same way as the TAS. Stand by the door, wait for her to cross to the left, and then talk twice at the right times.

Ah ok. For some reason I thought you had found a new way of doing it that wasn't as hard. That's pretty cool though that you're working on it, I hope you can get this in a run. I'm interested to know what the completion time would be with the healer glitch.

DK28

2012-09-27 12:12:04 am

General Kong - Bullets and Bananas

Loved that run feasel. And bonus points for the Radioacive Man quote. thumbsup

Svenne

2012-09-27 05:35:39 am

Smörgåsbord

Quote from Solairflaire:

Quote from Heidrage:

With the new strats, has a full rout been developed yet?

To answer this more directly, assuming you're talking about the major skips category:

Magic Container south of start (Up+A maybe?)
Trophy
Jump Spell
Bagu
Hammer
Magic Container by Hammer (Up+A) (Have at least 2-4-1)
Medicine Bottle (Up+A) (2-4-3)
Fairy / Downstab
Glove
(Maybe kill Helmethead) (if you don't kill Helmethead, fairy glitch in block room just before the glove)
Raft (Up+A) (2-5-3)
Magic Container on Maze Island
Go to Darunia in east Hyrule and activate the screen lock glitch
Follow Inzult's video for beating the game

Hehe, now me, Arva and John have all done the barrierskip + thunderskip so it's not lacking people doing it, but better to wait for a while! Wink

I mean, this quote is 4 days ago, and now you can skip raft, it saves minutes! But ofc. if someone want to be on tssb for Zelda 2, this is your shot.