Single Segment with Resets Now Accepted [locked]

Zastbat

2012-08-24 07:16:58 pm

thanks flip now i can start working on Soul Reaver again Cheesy

Aftermath

Edit history:

Aftermath: 2012-09-07 06:39:30 pm

2012-08-25 02:37:21 am

Quits halfway

Darksiders 2 looks like it'll have some quit/reload and die/reload sections for one of the categories. It saves a pretty huge amount of time in quite a number of places. Basically, we reach an autosave in a way not normally accessible (either out of bounds or with clever platforming) and then reload the game at the autosave place (either by death or quitting to the menu). It's looking like it'd save 20% or more.

There's also a glitch with applying a buff and then saving and exiting, this saves a crazy amount of time as well.

mike89

2012-09-13 08:08:19 am

SEGA Junkie

Working on Wario Land 4 now - soft resets skip over 11 minutes of cutscene in a (so far) 65 minute run.

ridd3r.

Edit history:

ridd3r.: 2012-09-23 10:51:16 am

2012-09-19 02:05:53 pm

we have lift off

Quote from Flip:

I appreciate you checking both ways and giving me good estimates. By my calculations, we're looking at ~4.3% time saved due to resets. I'm still formulating what I think is an acceptable threshold but I'm pretty sure it should be at least 5%, if not more. If you do decide you want to run this category check back with me and I'll probably have made up my mind by then.

An update to the Max Payne RTA estimate; I now calculate 3:16 saved due to more time savers discovered - this is 3:16 saved over the current SS record of 56:41. Therefore a saving of ~5.76%, is that enough?

Edit: Now over 4 minutes saved. - managed to find a way to make the p1c6 save glitch skip work Tongue

Flip

2012-09-19 07:43:12 pm

1-Up!

Quote from Aftermath:

Darksiders 2 looks like it'll have some quit/reload and die/reload sections for one of the categories. It saves a pretty huge amount of time in quite a number of places. Basically, we reach an autosave in a way not normally accessible (either out of bounds or with clever platforming) and then reload the game at the autosave place (either by death or quitting to the menu). It's looking like it'd save 20% or more.

There's also a glitch with applying a buff and then saving and exiting, this saves a crazy amount of time as well.

Quote from mike89:

Working on Wario Land 4 now - soft resets skip over 11 minutes of cutscene in a (so far) 65 minute run.

Quote from ridd3r.:

Quote from Flip:

I appreciate you checking both ways and giving me good estimates. By my calculations, we're looking at ~4.3% time saved due to resets. I'm still formulating what I think is an acceptable threshold but I'm pretty sure it should be at least 5%, if not more. If you do decide you want to run this category check back with me and I'll probably have made up my mind by then.

An update to the Max Payne RTA estimate; I now calculate 3:16 saved due to more time savers discovered - this is 3:16 saved over the current SS record of 56:41. Therefore a saving of ~5.76%, is that enough?

Yes Yes Yes

[quote="Aftermath"]Darksiders 2 looks like it'll have some quit/reload and die/reload sections for one of the categories. It saves a pretty huge amount of time in quite a number of places. Basically, we reach an autosave in a way not normally accessible (either out of bounds or with clever platforming) and then reload the game at the autosave place (either by death or quitting to the menu). It's looking like it'd save 20% or more.

There's also a glitch with applying a buff and then saving and exiting, this saves a crazy amount of time as well.[/quote]
[quote="mike89"]Working on Wario Land 4 now - soft resets skip over 11 minutes of cutscene in a (so far) 65 minute run.[/quote]
[quote="ridd3r."][quote="Flip"]I appreciate you checking both ways and giving me good estimates. By my calculations, we're looking at ~4.3% time saved due to resets. I'm still formulating what I think is an acceptable threshold but I'm pretty sure it should be [i]at least[/i] 5%, if not more. If you do decide you want to run this category check back with me and I'll probably have made up my mind by then.[/quote]

An update to the Max Payne RTA estimate; I now calculate 3:16 saved due to more time savers discovered - this is 3:16 saved over the current SS record of 56:41. Therefore a saving of ~5.76%, is that enough?[/quote]
Yes Yes Yes

ZFG

2012-09-19 07:48:11 pm

MrGrunz is a guay

Has a decision been made about Majora's Mask SS with resets yet? I'm running it now and I would like to submit it when I'm finished.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2012-09-25 10:46:09 am

presjpolk: 2012-09-25 10:43:59 am

2012-09-25 10:41:57 am

HELLO!

Would Single Segment with Resets be accepted for Ultima Exodus NES?

It has the feature where if you save and reset you can change out party members.

The idea I have is that instead of grinding combat, getting an average of 50 gold per combat, I can generate party members and rob them of their gold, giving me 300 gold a pop. Generating new prerolled characters is quick, so this could be a substantial time savings. I *might* be able to test tonight to be sure, though.

Edit: but because it's kinda cheap I'm wondering if it would be disallowed for that reason.

UraniumAnchor

2012-09-25 11:18:14 am

Not a walrus

"Cheap" has never been a consideration when it comes to speedrun tricks. If that doesn't get accepted I'll be surprised.

Flip

2012-09-25 04:38:32 pm

1-Up!

Quote from presjpolk:

Would Single Segment with Resets be accepted for Ultima Exodus NES?

It has the feature where if you save and reset you can change out party members.

The idea I have is that instead of grinding combat, getting an average of 50 gold per combat, I can generate party members and rob them of their gold, giving me 300 gold a pop. Generating new prerolled characters is quick, so this could be a substantial time savings. I *might* be able to test tonight to be sure, though.

Edit: but because it's kinda cheap I'm wondering if it would be disallowed for that reason.

Need time estimates. Like UA said, cheapness is irrelevant.

presjpolk

2012-09-25 04:45:59 pm

HELLO!

Alright, will run those up ASAP.

Thanatos

2012-09-26 03:19:00 pm

My run for Dark souls would count as Single Segment with Resets for sure.

Kotti

2012-09-26 04:12:49 pm

Quote from mapler90210:

Eventually SSw/Resets will be the norm, and it will be up to the verifiers to ensure that when a run with resets is put up against one without them, the new run must be a legitimate improvement in order to be accepted..

This. I don't see a reason to ever ban using resets no matter how little time they save if a run is overall, without taking the resets into account, better than a run without resets.

Another thing I think is worth taking into consideration is some games having their active communities that have established their own rules. In cases like Majora's Mask I think it would be reasonable to at least consider using the community's rules over SDA's rules. Maybe it wouldn't be consistent compared to most runs on the site, but is having a disclaimer explaining the timing/banned things on the game page such a bad thing?

ING-X

2012-09-27 05:16:33 am

umad

I agree with Kotti. It would be cool if SDA and ZSR used the same timings in order to avoid confusion. Since ZSR isn't going to change any time soon, it'd be cool if SDA was willing to in order to keep things consistent.

Alko

2012-09-27 10:00:01 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from ING-X:

I agree with Kotti. It would be cool if SDA and ZSR used the same timings in order to avoid confusion. Since ZSR isn't going to change any time soon, it'd be cool if SDA was willing to in order to keep things consistent.

If they don't change, why should we change? Is it just a case of who's the bigger boss around? I don't agree with changing rules that have worked for all of our site to fit another site in a single game (series).

Paraxade

2012-09-27 10:28:20 am

I think we should be the ones to change because not allowing something on the arbitrary basis that it doesn't save enough time is dumb.

They aren't bound to our rules, so of course they're going to do everything that can save time. That's the same philosophy we have, except for when it comes to this one thing.

Really, this should be how it is for all games. :s

zastbat

2012-09-27 10:46:23 am

Lord Of The Beards

Quote from Paraxade:

I think we should be the ones to change because not allowing something on the arbitrary basis that it doesn't save enough time is dumb.

They aren't bound to our rules, so of course they're going to do everything that can save time. That's the same philosophy we have, except for when it comes to this one thing.

Really, this should be how it is for all games. :s

yea really if you are running a game you are using every time saver you can and usually resetting is one of them.

presjpolk

2012-09-27 12:59:09 pm

HELLO!

Here's one big reason SDA doesn't have to do diddly:

If SDA were a smaller site struggling for relevance, that'd be a good reason to bow to what some other site does in terms of rules.

But it's not. SDA is doing fine. So SDA can make decisions according to what the SDA community wants. If that means SS+R everywhere, so be it. If not, then... so be it. There's room for ZSR, SDA, and plenty of other sites on the Intertubes.

SDA did fine when some Half Life runners continued to use macros in spite of SDA rules. SDA will do fine if it does things some ZSR runners want to do.

Again, not to say things should be kept he same for the sake of being different, but what some other site does isn't reason in itself for SDA to change.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2012-09-27 01:08:20 pm

Claimh Happy

SDA will not accept runs that show overall worse performance than an existing run even if it achieves a faster time. Why, then, do we allow horribly outdated runs to remain on the site when we know they would soon be improved dramatically if only we allowed a game-specific rule change?

Alko

2012-09-27 01:30:44 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Thanks, PresJPolk for providing the statistics that I would have needed to make my point ,) And thanks for rewriting it in a much more understandable way ^^'

Kotti

2012-09-27 02:50:59 pm

Just because SDA is big doesn't mean the system is good. The goal of a speedrun is to achieve the fastest time possible. Resetting can save time and is not a cheat. Resetting is not allowed. To me it sounds like a pretty dumb contradiction in any case.

Miles

Edit history:

Miles: 2012-09-27 04:09:32 pm

2012-09-27 04:09:14 pm

Quote from Kotti:

Just because SDA is big doesn't mean the system is good. The goal of a speedrun is to achieve the fastest time possible. Resetting can save time and is not a cheat. Resetting is not allowed.

That's the problem: Resetting is allowed... As long as it doesn't save "too little" time. Which really makes no sense at all.

Kotti

2012-09-27 04:15:15 pm

^Exactly. In my opinion resetting should be the standard and SS without resets should be considered as a separate category in cases where resetting changes the route massively, not the other way round.

zastbat

2012-09-27 04:16:22 pm

Lord Of The Beards

Quote from Kotti:

^Exactly. In my opinion resetting should be the standard and SS without resets should be considered as a separate category in cases where resetting changes the route massively, not the other way round.

My god if resetting was the standard i would have made alot more progress on soul reaver.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2012-09-27 06:14:50 pm

2012-09-27 06:13:08 pm

HELLO!

Quote from Kotti:

Just because SDA is big doesn't mean the system is good. The goal of a speedrun is to achieve the fastest time possible. Resetting can save time and is not a cheat. Resetting is not allowed. To me it sounds like a pretty dumb contradiction in any case.

Yeah well just because some other site does something a different way, it doesn't mean SDA's way is bad.

I think you've got to argue the merits of SS+Resets on their own, without an appeal to authority.

Which I think probably can be done. My personal feeling is that SS+Resets represents a realistic practice people actually use on consoles, even outside the context of speedrunning, in order to accomplish things faster and easier. And so it should be allowed for that reason. It's not really a glitch or a hardware hack.

Alko

2012-09-27 06:23:53 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from presjpolk:

Yeah well just because some other site does something a different way, it doesn't mean SDA's way is bad.

I think you've got to argue the merits of SS+Resets on their own, without an appeal to authority.

Exactly this.