Single Segment with Resets Now Accepted [locked]

2011-10-08 12:07:54 am

Claimh Happy

I was going to ask whether Aria of Sorrow would be allowed for this, but before I do, are game suspensions even counted as a reset/segmentation? The latter I doubt, but I'm not sure for the former. It doesn't give you any extra attempts at that part of the run, and unlike a reset you aren't left with permanent information, but rather one-time data to resume a play session. On the other hand, the fact that you need to "resume the session" is evidence enough that you could consider it not an SS run.

Sir VG

2011-10-08 01:09:58 am

Fucking Weeaboo

I think the late Castlevania games that have the suspension (Harmony, Aria, Dawn, Portrait, etc) is a perfect example of SS+Resets, since they can save some major time. As long as it's not for glitches (Like in Portrait) for more for save warping (Harmony) then I say it's a perfect example.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-10-08 08:52:06 am

2011-10-08 08:51:09 am

Claimh Happy

Can you elaborate on that? I'm not sure why one of those would be preferable to the other, and I'm not really sure which one AoS would fall under, either.

Sir VG

2011-10-08 03:19:01 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Generally runs with major glitches is a whole different category then a run w/o them. Like if you did the suspend-zip glitch in Portrait, that would be a different category the a run that didn't.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-10-08 06:12:31 pm

Claimh Happy

AoS has two different uses for game suspension. One is to return to the point you entered the current screen. This in turn has two uses. One is to perform a zip on a wall that would ordinarily be too small to un-transform from the bat. The other is to escape from certain rooms that would otherwise leave you trapped or require you to travel a long distance to get out of (these are rooms that have an odd space in the top right corner that you can stand in, rather than being zipped upwards. if you enter the room in an atypical manner, you can often get to this space by suspending). These uses together allow you to get the Claimh Solais, arguably the best weapon in the game, which saves over a minute on the final boss fight (a "perfect" fight without it is just under four minutes long). The other use tricks the game into giving you 0 hp, which disables screen transitions, allowing you to move around outside the screen before using a healing item to effectively warp elsewhere on the map. This is frame perfect, and confusing as hell. I don't think this needs to be discussed in terms of considering a category for the run.

Basically, if AoS is allowed SS+Resets, I can take a ~20 second detour to get the Claimh, which saves ~1:20 on the final fight. The run is about 17:30 without it, and 16:30 with it. If not, all I can say is that I won't be the one submitting a run to the site. Not for a long time. I simply don't have the skill to take out Chaos with the Levaetain. I realize how petty this sounds, but I'm just not capable of it.

AoS has two different uses for game suspension. One is to return to the point you entered the current screen. This in turn has two uses. One is to perform a zip on a wall that would ordinarily be too small to un-transform from the bat. The other is to escape from certain rooms that would otherwise leave you trapped or require you to travel a long distance to get out of (these are rooms that have an odd space in the top right corner that you can stand in, rather than being zipped upwards. if you enter the room in an atypical manner, you can often get to this space by suspending). These uses together allow you to get the Claimh Solais, arguably the best weapon in the game, which saves over a minute on the final boss fight (a "perfect" fight without it is just under four minutes long). The other use tricks the game into giving you 0 hp, which disables screen transitions, allowing you to move around outside the screen before using a healing item to effectively warp elsewhere on the map. This is frame perfect, and confusing as hell. I don't think this needs to be discussed in terms of considering a category for the run.

Basically, if AoS is allowed SS+Resets, I can take a ~20 second detour to get the Claimh, which saves ~1:20 on the final fight. The run is about 17:30 without it, and 16:30 with it. If not, all I can say is that I won't be the one submitting a run to the site. Not for a long time. I simply don't have the skill to take out Chaos with the Levaetain. I realize how petty this sounds, but I'm just not capable of it.

Flip

2011-10-09 05:38:12 pm

1-Up!

Are you planning to submit a run if it is allowed?

Surreal

Edit history:

Surreal: 2011-10-10 02:33:28 am

Surreal: 2011-10-10 02:32:56 am

Surreal: 2011-10-10 02:32:34 am

Surreal: 2011-10-10 02:31:49 am

Surreal: 2011-10-10 02:31:09 am

Surreal: 2011-10-10 02:09:35 am

Surreal: 2011-10-10 02:01:15 am

2011-10-10 02:00:40 am

dabes

As Mike and Animeowzerz said, Sly Cooper would definitely apply for this. Loading saves lets you skip multiple cutscenes and shaves off a lot of time. Loading a save also warps you in some instances which saves time. The load warps together would save probably 1-2 minutes, while skipping all the cutscenes (that can be only done by loading) saves probably around 15-20 minutes (there are a lot of cutscenes, and most are usually 20 seconds to 2 minutes). Considering a run can probably be done in an hour and 21 minutes, that's about 20% of the game that you can skip with loading saves.

I have one question though. You mentioned that only a soft reset would be allowed to be eligible for this category. There are a few cutscene skips where if you fail them, you can actually do a hard reset (on a PS2), and then load up the save again to still skip the cutscene (it's longer than if you had just gotten the ingame skip, but still faster than watching the cutscene). However on a PS3 you can reset the game without turning off the system, which would technically count as a soft reset right? Does this mean you could only allow resetting the whole game if it was done on a PS3?

Also, I am currently running this game. I have competition with someone else, but I'm going to try and get a good enough any% time to submit.

As Mike and Animeowzerz said, Sly Cooper would definitely apply for this. Loading saves lets you skip multiple cutscenes and shaves off a lot of time. Loading a save also warps you in some instances which saves time. The load warps together would save probably 1-2 minutes, while skipping all the cutscenes (that can be only done by loading) saves probably around 15-20 minutes (there are a lot of cutscenes, and most are usually 20 seconds to 2 minutes). Considering a run can probably be done in an hour and 21 minutes, that's about 20% of the game that you can skip with loading saves.

I have one question though. You mentioned that only a soft reset would be allowed to be eligible for this category. There are a few cutscene skips where if you fail them, you can actually do a hard reset (on a PS2), and then load up the save again to still skip the cutscene (it's longer than if you had just gotten the ingame skip, but still faster than watching the cutscene). However on a PS3 you can reset the game without turning off the system, which would technically count as a soft reset right? Does this mean you could only allow resetting the whole game if it was done on a PS3?

Also, I am currently running this game. I have competition with someone else, but I'm going to try and get a good enough any% time to submit.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-10-10 09:44:20 am

Claimh Happy

I'm having some trouble with my recording equipment, but once I get that worked out, I do intend to submit a run. It may be worth waiting until then to allow it, though, if not for any reason other than not knowing how quickly i'll be able to alleviate said "trouble".

Satoryu

2011-10-10 12:02:29 pm

Visually Appealing

I don't think using suspends should count as a reset unless there's a way to copy them. Which as far as I know you can't in Aria or any of the recent Metroidvanias. Also the NG+ Dawn of Sorrow run suspends, and that's marked a single segment.

Flip

2011-10-10 04:24:36 pm

1-Up!

Surreal, hard resets are ok as well. I just listed a soft reset as an example. Sly Cooper Added.

Surreal

2011-10-10 05:13:45 pm

dabes

Oh alrighty then. Ideally hard resets won't be necessary, but given how precise some of the cutscene skips can be I felt it wise to make sure it was not out of the question to hard reset if needed.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-10-10 06:55:06 pm

Claimh Happy

Quote from Satoryu:

I don't think using suspends should count as a reset unless there's a way to copy them. Which as far as I know you can't in Aria or any of the recent Metroidvanias. Also the NG+ Dawn of Sorrow run suspends, and that's marked a single segment.

Oh, then it doesn't matter. Sorry for wasting time, then. Only issue there would be if it warrants Major Skips, but I wouldn't give it that until someone manages the Undead trick in real time.

Surreal

Edit history:

Surreal: 2011-10-15 11:40:52 pm

2011-10-15 11:37:55 pm

dabes

Alright, so I now have an interesting question regarding SS with resets.

As I found tonight, Sly Cooper can randomly freeze during cutscenes (this happened a few times to me before but it turns out other sly runners have this occurrence too, it's similar to Metroid Prime crashing in the furnace or the elevator to chozo ruins).

I actually had my game freeze earlier tonight in my new world record run. This run isn't submittable material yet, but if such a thing were to occur during a run that was of a submittable time (assuming you factor out the time the reset and get back to that cutscene), would that time be pardoned out, or would having to reset because of a random game freeze count towards the final time by SDA standards?

I know it would technically be "sloppy" to have a run with a freeze (despite it being out of control), and annoying to have people on SDA cut the video up (I assume you would desire proof of said freeze and have the video file of the whole real time run including it), but if it's proven to be a true SS run, I'm just wondering how this would play out.

This would never exist previously due to a reset being necessary (and thus not a SS), but since SS with resets are now an option, this becomes a possible issue.

Alright, so I now have an interesting question regarding SS with resets.

As I found tonight, Sly Cooper can randomly freeze during cutscenes (this happened a few times to me before but it turns out other sly runners have this occurrence too, it's similar to Metroid Prime crashing in the furnace or the elevator to chozo ruins).

I actually had my game freeze earlier tonight in my new world record run. This run isn't submittable material yet, but if such a thing were to occur during a run that was of a submittable time (assuming you factor out the time the reset and get back to that cutscene), would that time be pardoned out, or would having to reset because of a random game freeze count towards the final time by SDA standards?

I know it would technically be "sloppy" to have a run with a freeze (despite it being out of control), and annoying to have people on SDA cut the video up (I assume you would desire proof of said freeze and have the video file of the whole real time run including it), but if it's proven to be a true SS run, I'm just wondering how this would play out.

This would never exist previously due to a reset being necessary (and thus not a SS), but since SS with resets are now an option, this becomes a possible issue.

Flip

2011-10-16 03:56:32 pm

1-Up!

I guess it might be something we could potentially work with, but if you're running 50% of the game SS and then it freezes and you restart and play through the rest with resets, then you'll have half of the game unoptimized for resets. If you're doing a SS w/ Resets run anyway, then it would be a non-issue as you wouldn't have to worry about the cutscenes.

Surreal

2011-10-16 06:35:47 pm

dabes

Considering skipping cutscenes toys with the ingame timer, a SS run of Sly with resets would have to be timed in real time, so cutscenes would be considered into it I'm pretty sure.

Flip

2011-10-16 07:38:30 pm

1-Up!

Nearly all SS runs with Rests will be timed manually. That's why I said if you go from SS to SS with Rests halfway through a run it wouldn't be accept-worthy.

Surreal

Edit history:

Surreal: 2011-10-16 08:56:47 pm

Surreal: 2011-10-16 08:56:29 pm

Surreal: 2011-10-16 08:55:47 pm

2011-10-16 08:54:58 pm

dabes

I was introducing the situation assuming the run in question is a SS with resets from the start.

Flip

Edit history:

Flip: 2011-10-16 09:04:05 pm

2011-10-16 09:03:35 pm

1-Up!

If you're doing SS w/ Resets from the start and you still are victimized by freezing, it will probably count against you in your time. Mike can probably comment better on what we've done historically in situations with glitchy freezing-prone games.

Surreal

2011-10-17 01:08:01 am

dabes

Alright, thanks.

mikwuyma

2011-10-17 04:07:47 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Yes the freeze will count against your time.

ING-X

2011-10-20 05:29:35 am

umad

The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask can skip 2 cutscenes in the first 25 minutes of the game by resetting at a certain point, saving about 1 minute total. Is this enough to warrant a SS w/ resets category?

Flip

2011-10-20 06:11:17 pm

1-Up!

if resets will only save 1 minute out of a whole run then no, it's not enough.

ING-X

2011-11-13 07:50:35 am

umad

What about The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess? Using a reset at the right time near the beginning activates the Back in Time glitch which saves about 5 minutes and changes the route quite a bit, and savewarping should save another 5 minutes throughout the course of the run.

Flip

2011-11-13 04:54:42 pm

1-Up!

So SS w/ Resets saves 10 minutes? Against what time without? Also are you interested in running that category?

ING-X

2011-11-15 01:22:27 pm

umad

I am interested in running it, yes. The normal single segment time expected is about 3 hours 44 minutes at the least, and the back in time glitch changes the route significantly and also makes the run a lot easier IMO.