Single Segment with Resets Now Accepted [locked]

2011-11-15 07:40:36 pm

Twinkle-Twinkle Lil' Star, har har!

Quote from ING-X:

I am interested in running it, yes. The normal single segment time expected is about 3 hours 44 minutes at the least, and the back in time glitch changes the route significantly and also makes the run a lot easier IMO.

Just out of curiosity, if you used both the Reset Strategy and the BiT Route, how much faster would that be than if you didn't reset (other than the initial reset to trigger BiT) any other times and still used BiT?

ING-X

2011-11-15 07:56:55 pm

umad

I think BiT saves about 4 and a half minutes out of that ~10. Really I don't want to run TP unless I can do BiT since pushing bokoblins into Trill's shop is really awful.

TLoZSR

2011-11-17 10:11:35 pm

Quote from ING-X:

I think BiT saves about 4 and a half minutes out of that ~10. Really I don't want to run TP unless I can do BiT since pushing bokoblins into Trill's shop is really awful.

It's really not that bad, just spend some time on it, you'll figure it out in an hour or so.

ING-X

2011-11-21 04:26:17 pm

umad

Not to sound rude, but is there going to be a ruling on SS w/ resets for TP? It's been like a week and Flip hasn't responded at all =[

Caracarn

2011-11-21 04:54:49 pm

Flip is incredibly busy in real life at the moment; you will just need to be patient.

ING-X

2011-11-21 05:24:46 pm

umad

Oh ok, sorry Sad

Flip

2011-11-27 09:12:18 pm

1-Up!

Yes, I apologize. Twilight Princess will be allowed.

Youkai

2011-11-29 09:15:49 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

I have a question about if a run will be considered a SS with resets or not.

Brassmaster and I just completed our Gears of War SS co-op run and during it we exploit an out of bounds glitch to save a couple minutes. Unfortunately using the glitch has a tendency to freeze both our Xboxes a minute later. To avoid the lock-up right after exploiting the glitch we cross a checkpoint and do a "load last checkpoint". This causes the map to reload and fixes whatever the bug is. Loading last checkpoint affects nothing in this case since we hit the checkpoint a second before loading it and we start within a couple steps of our previous location.

I don't think this would qualify as a SS with Resets since it's not really a reset (we never hit the main screen or load a particular save) and it actually costs us time (a 10 second loading screen) but I want to get a ruling so I can make sure we our calling the run by the correct name.

brassmaster

2011-11-29 09:27:54 pm

Continuing off of Youkai's post. If you would like to see what he is talking about, my side of the run is up on my Youtube channel "brasstrekker".

watch?v=p6p0RsFbMTY

the OoB section starts at 58:43 and the "load last checkpoint" is at 1:00:00

Flip

2011-11-29 09:42:47 pm

1-Up!

This is fine by me and won't qualify as "with Resets."

Augora

2012-02-08 11:10:03 am

dat jerk

There is also the Legend of Zelda: Oracle games that use the Save & Quit feature that helps save a bunch of time when you need to get back to the beginning of a dungeon. I believe that follows the SS with Resets rules.

Itsu de Mo

2012-02-08 02:48:11 pm

Arrested for felony abuse of emotes

Quote from Augora:

There is also the Legend of Zelda: Oracle games that use the Save & Quit feature that helps save a bunch of time when you need to get back to the beginning of a dungeon. I believe that follows the SS with Resets rules.

Quote from Flip:

Quote from romscout:

I'm practicing Oracle of Seasons mainly for AGDQ but also plan to do a run for SDA eventually when I'm good at it (might be a while). I've been doing the run with save warps, and it saves countless minutes in dungeons and even allows for some sequence breaks (notably skipping a key in dungeon 6). I'd estimate like 7-8 minutes being saved (it's about 4 minutes saved halfway through the route so far and the dungeon 6 key skip saves a TON of time on its own later) and the run looks to be sub-2 hours. I'm running it like this for AGDQ anyway and I'll probably never bother doing a full SS run w/o resets since there's so many more rooms where you can get unlucky and it's infuriating, so hopefully save warping's acceptable here. :p

Should be ok. Give me estimates for total time w/o warps and time w/ warps when you have good data.

Quote from dballin:

That post ^ only replace Seasons with Ages. Except of course about the sub 2 hours part...

Same as my reply to romscout.

There's the reason's why it's not on there. ^^

[quote="Augora"]There is also the Legend of Zelda: Oracle games that use the Save & Quit feature that helps save a bunch of time when you need to get back to the beginning of a dungeon. I believe that follows the SS with Resets rules.[/quote]
[quote="Flip"][quote="romscout"]I'm practicing Oracle of Seasons mainly for AGDQ but also plan to do a run for SDA eventually when I'm good at it (might be a while). I've been doing the run with save warps, and it saves countless minutes in dungeons and even allows for some sequence breaks (notably skipping a key in dungeon 6). I'd estimate like 7-8 minutes being saved (it's about 4 minutes saved halfway through the route so far and the dungeon 6 key skip saves a TON of time on its own later) and the run looks to be sub-2 hours. I'm running it like this for AGDQ anyway and I'll probably never bother doing a full SS run w/o resets since there's so many more rooms where you can get unlucky and it's infuriating, so hopefully save warping's acceptable here. :p[/quote]
Should be ok. Give me estimates for total time w/o warps and time w/ warps when you have good data.

[quote="dballin"]That post ^ only replace Seasons with Ages. Except of course about the sub 2 hours part...[/quote]
Same as my reply to romscout.[/quote]
There's the reason's why it's not on there. ^^

mikwuyma

2012-02-09 11:06:23 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I think Tompa's run at AGDQ 2012 shows how much time all of the saving and quitting shaves. I'd have to look at the run, but I'm 99% sure it's justified for the category in this case.

playe

Edit history:

playe: 2012-02-10 12:24:01 am

2012-02-10 12:23:36 am

I think ALTTP could qualify for this category, save-warping saves some time in dungeons and in the glitched category (If it'll be allowed) you can go straight to the Triforce room. (Saving over an hour effectively but again only if it can be allowed here on SDA.)

Surreal

2012-03-03 07:31:29 pm

dabes

So another game I'm in the process of learning and intending to submit an updated run to is Jak and Daxter 1. I was talking to Zenic earlier today, and apparently save/load warping would save about 15-20 minutes, most of that due to a horrible oversight the makers of the game made where you can actually skip most of the final area with this (Zenic did this in his JRDQ run). Considering a run is less than 2 hours long, 15-20 minutes is a massive amount of time saved lol.

I also have a question: Say hypothetically I submitted a faster run of JaD SS and got it accepted. Would I be allowed to give an ok to have a SS w/ resets run, that was submitted later (assuming it got accepted), replace the SS run? I figured SS w/ reset runs are mostly separate categories since it would be unfair to older runs that weren't allowed this pleasure back then, but if the current run up was recent and such options were available, I was wondering if maybe things would be different.

mikwuyma

2012-03-03 07:38:59 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Surreal, I don't know the details of how much time it skips, but yeah 15-20 minutes in a game that is less than 2 hours is a massive amount of time and should be allowed for SS with resets.

About obsoleting Zenic's run, I think Zenic should have the final say on that. Zenic is a reasonable guy, so if your run was a lot better, he'd probably let your run obsolete his.

Surreal

Edit history:

Surreal: 2012-03-03 07:58:59 pm

2012-03-03 07:58:16 pm

dabes

I was planning on doing a run of both categories anyways just in case (as in, a SS run that will obsoletes his, and an SS w/ resets run as well), but I will have a word with him on that as well and if he is ok with it then have him post here for clarification.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2012-03-03 10:22:52 pm

2012-03-03 10:20:59 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Yeah, definitely I'd say if you improve anything over my run you can have the page to yourself Wink

(even if that run abused death or save/loads, as long as it's single segment... although even if it's segmented maybe. Ah well, get there first and we'll discuss it. Smiley

)

Paraxade

Edit history:

Paraxade: 2012-03-06 01:11:33 pm

2012-03-06 01:10:26 pm

I'm like 99% sure this will get a yes, but just to make it official: Skyward Sword. Basically the category is just needed here for BiT - reset right after dying to play on the title screen, then save to a slot and load it at the same time, and you'll spawn on the map you were saved at before at the XYZ coordinates of the statue you saved at. Makes for some pretty wildly different routes since you can completely break the beginning of the game, skip just about all of Skyview Temple and half of Fire Sanctuary, tons of other smaller things.

To be completely honest I'm not sure how much time it saves; 20 minutes, maybe...? So not THAT much for a 6-hour run... but it's used quite frequently and alters the route pretty significantly, so it's still very different from a non-BiT'd run.

I'm kinda working on a run, so yeah.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-03-06 07:20:29 pm

2012-03-06 07:19:38 pm

The Golden Sun games were mentioned briefly before, but without an explanation. Understandably, it looks like that wasn't enough, so I'll go into more detail:

In the first two Golden Sun games (Golden Sun and Golden Sun: The Lost Age), a speedrun has three important uses for resets on a single-segment run that would almost certainly be applied in a run with this category. The simplest is sanctum warping. You load a file while holding a certain button combination to get warped to the sanctum in the last town you visited. This has a number of applications throughout a run, most obviously removing a number of instances of backtracking, but also making it possible to jump forward in certain locations, such as the first Kibombo visit: Entering the town and warping to the sanctum skips a bit of a roundabout route you'd otherwise have to take through the town in order to reach it, and you can progress from there.

The second application is the Retreat glitch, which involves partially activating a warping spell. The glitch has no apparent immediate results, but it causes exits from the room to lead to different locations. More pertinently, if you save and reset while the glitch is in effect, it puts you in the room you'd warp to, but with your original coordinates, often in an out-of-bounds state. There are a few big shortcuts this allows for, including a substantial sequence break.

The third application is RNG manipulation. After a hard reset, certain random aspects of the game are (at least briefly) predictable. Probably the most important one to a speedrun is that if you get in a random battle immediately following a hard reset, you automatically surprise the enemy, getting a free first turn, and you can use that free turn to flee the battle with 100% success rate. So even on a single-segment run, this RNG manipulation is highly useful.

I don't know about the third game, Dark Dawn. Sanctum warping and the Retreat glitch don't seem to work in it, and I don't think the RNG works the same way, although I haven't confirmed this. There is a glitch in Dark Dawn that can only be triggered through a save+reset to freely move around the world map, getting to just about any location, including areas that don't exist. However, there is only one known location to trigger the glitch, and it's right in front of the final dungeon. There aren't a whole lot of important places to go at that point, and I don't think a speedrun would have any use for any of them.

The speedrun I'm currently working on is for the second game and is segmented - and there are damn good uses for segments in this game as well. However, this seems worth noting for the future.

The Golden Sun games were mentioned briefly before, but without an explanation. Understandably, it looks like that wasn't enough, so I'll go into more detail:

In the first two Golden Sun games (Golden Sun and Golden Sun: The Lost Age), a speedrun has three important uses for resets on a single-segment run that would almost certainly be applied in a run with this category. The simplest is sanctum warping. You load a file while holding a certain button combination to get warped to the sanctum in the last town you visited. This has a number of applications throughout a run, most obviously removing a number of instances of backtracking, but also making it possible to jump forward in certain locations, such as the first Kibombo visit: Entering the town and warping to the sanctum skips a bit of a roundabout route you'd otherwise have to take through the town in order to reach it, and you can progress from there.

The second application is the Retreat glitch, which involves partially activating a warping spell. The glitch has no apparent immediate results, but it causes exits from the room to lead to different locations. More pertinently, if you save and reset while the glitch is in effect, it puts you in the room you'd warp to, but with your original coordinates, often in an out-of-bounds state. There are a few big shortcuts this allows for, including a substantial sequence break.

The third application is RNG manipulation. After a hard reset, certain random aspects of the game are (at least briefly) predictable. Probably the most important one to a speedrun is that if you get in a random battle immediately following a hard reset, you automatically surprise the enemy, getting a free first turn, and you can use that free turn to flee the battle with 100% success rate. So even on a single-segment run, this RNG manipulation is highly useful.

I don't know about the third game, Dark Dawn. Sanctum warping and the Retreat glitch don't seem to work in it, and I don't think the RNG works the same way, although I haven't confirmed this. There is a glitch in Dark Dawn that can only be triggered through a save+reset to freely move around the world map, getting to just about any location, including areas that don't exist. However, there is only one known location to trigger the glitch, and it's right in front of the final dungeon. There aren't a whole lot of important places to go at that point, and I don't think a speedrun would have any use for any of them.

The speedrun I'm currently working on is for the second game and is segmented - and there are damn good uses for segments in this game as well. However, this seems worth noting for the future.

mikwuyma

2012-03-06 08:45:11 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Paraxade: Yeah that sounds pretty significant, and it does change the route. Even if it's only 20 minutes now, probably a new use for BiT will be discovered.

TheOthin: I'll look at that some other time or have Vorpaledge look at it, since he's more familiar with Golden Sun.

Flip

2012-03-07 07:22:50 am

1-Up!

Jak & Daxter and Skyward Sword are allowed.

Golden Sun 1&2 seem like good candidates, but I'd need a more solid time estimate and of course somebody who's interested in running them.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-03-07 08:57:24 pm

2012-03-07 08:55:45 pm

I haven't timed stuff, but I'm guessing in the 10-20 minute range, probably, out of 6+ hour runs. It depends a lot on how much you use it to skip random battles, which isn't such a great idea on a single-segment run.

But yeah, any actual runs of this sort are likely to be sometime in the future. I'm the only one running the game right now, and I don't plan on doing one, but maybe it'll help if I can actually submit something at last.

Xem

2012-03-19 12:35:48 pm

We're made of star-stuff

I'm wondering if it'll be allowed in Ratchet and Clank 3 for the Crash Site Level. Quitting and reloading the game only saves about a minute or two, and considering my path is about 2 hours, it's not that significant, but I'd figure I'd ask anyway.

I have no name

Edit history:

I have no name: 2012-03-22 10:49:23 am

2012-03-22 10:46:48 am

Obscure games ftw

Quote from Xem:

I'm wondering if it'll be allowed in Ratchet and Clank 3 for the Crash Site Level. Quitting and reloading the game only saves about a minute or two, and considering my path is about 2 hours, it's not that significant, but I'd figure I'd ask anyway.

It's what, around 1% savings? I'd say it probably doesn't warrant the category. Just run through the magnetic tower without dying, not that hard, right?

Also, Minecraft has an...interesting item duplication glitch. This allows the run to be completed in (high estimate) 20 minutes as opposed to >1 hour (low estimate) due to having to farm arrows, ender pearls, etc. The thing is, the way to do it is kind of convoluted.
1. Throw the items you want to duplicate on the ground.
2. Hit Escape (autosaves the game).
3. Pick up the items.
4. Press Alt-F4/press the close button (quit without autosave)
5. Re-open the game, re-load the save.
6. Pick up the items (again). You now have twice as many of them. Since ~12 Ender Pearls are required (and they're random enemy drops), this saves time both looks for and killing Endermen (instead 1 from a chest will be used and duplicated)

The time savings are enough to warrant the category, but would the glitch be allowed for an SDA run (as it requires closing and reopening the game, not just going to the main menu and re-loading the save)
Of course, this also brings up the question of how would you time it?

Amoirealinge is working on a run, and if the glitch is allowed I'd go for it too.

[quote="Xem"]I'm wondering if it'll be allowed in Ratchet and Clank 3 for the Crash Site Level. Quitting and reloading the game only saves about a minute or two, and considering my path is about 2 hours, it's not that significant, but I'd figure I'd ask anyway.[/quote]
It's what, around 1% savings?  I'd say it probably doesn't warrant the category.  Just run through the magnetic tower without dying, not that hard, right?

Also, Minecraft has an...interesting item duplication glitch.  This allows the run to be completed in (high estimate) 20 minutes as opposed to >1 hour (low estimate) due to having to farm arrows, ender pearls, etc.  The thing is, the way to do it is kind of convoluted.
1. Throw the items you want to duplicate on the ground.
2. Hit Escape (autosaves the game).
3. Pick up the items.
4. Press Alt-F4/press the close button (quit without autosave)
5. Re-open the game, re-load the save.
6. Pick up the items (again).  You now have twice as many of them.  Since ~12 Ender Pearls are required (and they're random enemy drops), this saves time both looks for and killing Endermen (instead 1 from a chest will be used and duplicated)

The time savings are enough to warrant the category, but would the glitch be allowed for an SDA run (as it requires closing and reopening the game, not just going to the main menu and re-loading the save)
Of course, this also brings up the question of how would you time it?

Amoirealinge is working on a run, and if the glitch is allowed I'd go for it too.