Official 2009 Rules Reworking Discussion [locked]

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

Spider-Waffle

Edit history:

Spider-Waffle: 2009-07-02 11:00:59 pm

2009-07-02 09:22:34 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

A qualified verifier for checking for legitimacy I would say is someone who's played the game considerably and knows a lot of about it and SDA's rules, and is thus apt at spotting forgery or rule breaking. For quality checking I'd say it's someone who's speed ran the game a considerable amount and knows the fastest strategies and roughly how fast the game can be beating and how difficult or consistent all the parts in the speedrun are to do.

It sounds to me like for the TM2 run there wasn't enough of a positive response to outweigh the two negative responses if I understand the how the rejection through quality works.

Really I don't see much problem with hosting a run that isn't all that it can be, or even that impressively fast. Viewers can decide for themselves which runs they want to see. SDA makes no claims that all the speedruns hosted here are of great quality.

With that in mind, let's look at all the positives that comes from hosting a run of sub par quality. This greatly motivates people who can improve the run to do so. It brings attention to the game as a speedrunable game, catching people's interest. Ultimately this results in more quality runs on the site.

I know for me, finding the first HL run posted on this is what brought me here. I was interested in speedrunning HL at the time. Seeing this run greatly motivated me to work harder on the HL speedrunning project I had been envisioning. I'd later create a run that was about TWICE as fast as this run, the word "twice" should be of some indication of the quality of the first HL run. Had this run been rejected because of quality who knows if there would even be a HL run on this site, not to mention all the other speedruns and support that came from me other people brought to the site by virtue of it having a HL speedrun.

You see lesser quality runs getting beaten all the time, the first run had to start some place. What percent of new runs are for new games and what percent are runs for games which already have speed runs? I would guess something around 50/50. with such a small fraction of the games out there having speedruns already, it's clear that runners like to run games which already have speedruns.

You know the saying, once you start something you're halfway done? Well by hosting the first run for a game you're helping a lot of things get started.
I really think hosting a speedrun of lower quality ultimate helps SDA a lot. It just brings in so much more interest and so many more man hours of people speedrunning games for SDA.

A qualified verifier for checking for legitimacy I would say is someone who's played the game considerably and knows a lot of about it and SDA's rules, and is thus apt at spotting forgery or rule breaking.  For quality checking I'd say it's someone who's speed ran the game a considerable amount and knows the fastest strategies and roughly how fast the game can be beating and how difficult or consistent all the parts in the speedrun are to do.

It sounds to me like for the TM2 run there wasn't enough of a positive response to outweigh the two negative responses if I understand the how the rejection through quality works.

Really I don't see much problem with hosting a run that isn't all that it can be, or even that impressively fast.  Viewers can decide for themselves which runs they want to see.  SDA makes no claims that all the speedruns hosted here are of great quality.

With that in mind, let's look at all the positives that comes from hosting a run of sub par quality.  This greatly motivates people who can improve the run to do so.  It brings attention to the game as a speedrunable game, catching people's interest.   Ultimately this results in more quality runs on the site.

I know for me, finding the first HL run posted on this is what brought me here.  I was interested in speedrunning HL at the time.  Seeing this run greatly motivated me to work harder on the HL speedrunning project I had been envisioning.  I'd later create a run that was about TWICE as fast as this run, the word "twice" should be of some indication of the quality of the first HL run.  Had this run been rejected because of quality who knows if there would even be a HL run on this site, not to mention all the other speedruns and support that came from me other people brought to the site by virtue of it having a HL speedrun.

You see lesser quality runs getting beaten all the time, the first run had to start some place.  What percent of new runs are for new games and what percent are runs for games which already have speed runs?  I would guess something around 50/50.  with such a small fraction of the games out there having speedruns already, it's clear that runners like to run games which already have speedruns.

You know the saying, once you start something you're halfway done?  Well by hosting the first run for a game you're helping a lot of things get started.
I really think hosting a speedrun of lower quality ultimate helps SDA a lot.  It just brings in so much more interest and so many more man hours of people speedrunning games for SDA.

ShadowWraith

2009-07-02 10:31:34 pm

.

You're saying we should host bad speedruns? :|

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2009-07-02 11:06:42 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

Well not "bad", but just sub-par. As long as it's a decent effort it really should help out SDA a lot. For most of these runs accepted, particularly on well-liked games, I would expect a better run to come along obsolete it soon enough. In the time it takes for a better run to come along, the sub-par run isn't really doing that much damage to SDA.

Even if a first time visitor finds SDA by virtue of a sub-par run being hosted, he'll still be likely to be a fan of SDA than had he never found the site. It's like even bad publicity is still better than no publicity.

ShadowWraith

2009-07-02 11:20:00 pm

.

It also gives the impression that SDA will take in anything you throw at us, giving people less incentive to actually make an effort because they know "Hey, let's just do a crappy run instead, it'll get accepted!".

Not a good path for SDA to go down.

arkarian

2009-07-02 11:35:47 pm

gamelogs.org

Quote from InstinctSage:

Disallowing scripts in games which allow them is, to me, functionally blanket banning software tool assistance, both internal and external. I don't see it as marking any specific games or game engines, but I see it applying to specific games or game engines in different ways, in the same manner that hardware tool assistance rules apply to different devices in different ways.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

It's a legitimate in-game feature which doesn't change the game mechanics much like customizing your config which the game makers intended to be used when playing the game in a regular manner.

i hear some (all?) of the games in sonic's ultimate genesis collection allow you to use save states. these are official versions of the game, and the people handling the ports clearly intended for you to be able to use save states. does this mean sda should automatically accept runs using them? just because it's included in the game doesn't mean it has a place on sda (although that is often the case with e.g. glitches). i don't see how scripts are any different; while they may be included in the game, they're not what sda is about.

Quote from ShadowWraith:

You're saying we should host bad speedruns? :|

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

Well not "bad", but just sub-par.

rotflmao.

[quote="InstinctSage"]Disallowing scripts in games which allow them is, to me, functionally blanket banning software tool assistance, both internal and external. I don't see it as marking any specific games or game engines, but I see it applying to specific games or game engines in different ways, in the same manner that hardware tool assistance rules apply to different devices in different ways.[/quote]

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]It's a legitimate in-game feature which doesn't change the game mechanics much like customizing your config which the game makers intended to be used when playing the game in a regular manner.[/quote]

i hear some (all?) of the games in sonic's ultimate genesis collection allow you to use save states. these are official versions of the game, and the people handling the ports clearly intended for you to be able to use save states. does this mean sda should automatically accept runs using them? just because it's included in the game doesn't mean it has a place on sda (although that is often the case with e.g. glitches). i don't see how scripts are any different; while they may be included in the game, they're not what sda is about.

[quote="ShadowWraith"]You're saying we should host bad speedruns? :|[/quote]
[quote="Spider-Waffle"]Well not "bad", but just sub-par.[/quote]

rotflmao.

ZenicReverie

2009-07-02 11:43:17 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from ShadowWraith:

It also gives the impression that SDA will take in anything you throw at us, giving people less incentive to actually make an effort because they know "Hey, let's just do a crappy run instead, it'll get accepted!".

Not a good path for SDA to go down.

TG went this route, and some of their high scores are pretty laughable. I'm not sure how damaging this has been to them, but I'm sure it hasn't helped them any.

I think what Spider-Waffle is saying is that sda should be more lenient towards new games? About another runner coming along and be willing to beat a record, it takes a long time for even some well known games. I'm pretty sure we don't want sda to be flooded with substandard runs that are more like playthroughs than runs.

InstinctSage

2009-07-03 12:17:31 am

Ur-Quan. You're for dinner.

I'm happy for the save penalty to remain as is. It's a relatively elegant solution, despite being a little arbitrary. But if it gets the message across, then it's all good.

As for run quality, lowering the bar won't achieve anything, I feel. I think the quality control rules are firm but fair. You do a good job, you get in. If it seems clear there could be more time saved and there is no adequate reason not to have saved that time, accepting the run would be a poor decision. It's a subjective judgment call, which is all verification is ever going to be, no matter how you try to arrange it.

chucknob

2009-07-03 12:23:06 am

Quote from Arkarian:

i hear some (all?) of the games in sonic's ultimate genesis collection allow you to use save states. these are official versions of the game, and the people handling the ports clearly intended for you to be able to use save states. does this mean sda should automatically accept runs using them? just because it's included in the game doesn't mean it has a place on sda (although that is often the case with e.g. glitches). i don't see how scripts are any different; while they may be included in the game, they're not what sda is about.

Just for the record, if someone saved during a Sonic run, it would just become a segmented run... it would not be against the rules at all. Though, I doubt there would be anywhere near as much interest in it.

And anyway, scripts are not 'in the game' quite like the ability to save in Sonic's Sega Collection is. There's a difference. I'm on the same side as you, but if we pretend like a script for jumping is the same thing as just jumping, we could get lost. Just clarifying.

[quote="Arkarian"]
i hear some (all?) of the games in sonic's ultimate genesis collection allow you to use save states. these are official versions of the game, and the people handling the ports clearly intended for you to be able to use save states. does this mean sda should automatically accept runs using them? just because it's included in the game doesn't mean it has a place on sda (although that is often the case with e.g. glitches). i don't see how scripts are any different; while they may be included in the game, they're not what sda is about. [/quote]

Just for the record, if someone saved during a Sonic run, it would just become a [i]segmented[/i] run... it would not be against the rules at all.  Though, I doubt there would be anywhere near as much interest in it.

And anyway, scripts are not 'in the game' quite like the ability to save in Sonic's Sega Collection is.  There's a difference.  I'm on the same side as you, but if we pretend like a script for jumping is the same thing as [i]just jumping[/i], we could get lost.  Just clarifying.

Zealie

2009-07-03 12:52:12 am

Haven't posted here yet (have read the whole thread).
And thought it was about time to speak up.

Seeing as some people laugh at Spider-Waffle's idea.

I'm referring to this:

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

Really I don't see much problem with hosting a run that isn't all that it can be, or even that impressively fast. Viewers can decide for themselves which runs they want to see. SDA makes no claims that all the speedruns hosted here are of great quality.

...

I know for me, finding the first HL run posted on this is what brought me here. I was interested in speedrunning HL at the time. Seeing this run greatly motivated me to work harder on the HL speedrunning project I had been envisioning. I'd later create a run that was about TWICE as fast as this run, the word "twice" should be of some indication of the quality of the first HL run. Had this run been rejected because of quality who knows if there would even be a HL run on this site, not to mention all the other speedruns and support that came from me other people brought to the site by virtue of it having a HL speedrun.

While my general idea is that SDA should have a high standard and only good runs I cannot help but say that the reason I got into speedrunning was because I knew of SDA for some time (not that well though) and was just checking some random video's of old games.
I must add that at the moment the idea I had of SDA was that there were only devine runs on there (I only knew like contra and SMB and stuff like those). At that time I sort of had the idea all runs were like that :).

Anyway, when I stumbled across the DuckTales speedrun and saw how it's done (with all due respect) I thought...
Hell I can do that better. So I went off*, bought me a working NES (yay for cheap stuff) and got to it.
Noticed I enjoyed doing it (and knowing that in general I seem to be good at gaming), that in combination with the responds one can get I started thinking about speedrunning more games.

Now the only question is... If the speedrun wasn't there would I think "huh what? why? that game owns! 'sad face'" and just walked further or would I investigate and try to do one myself... It's really hard to answer that tbh. (so I won't).

What I do know is that if the DuckTales speedrun was 100% perfect I would probably never got into speedrunning Smiley

(although that has nothing to do with Spider-Waffle's argument I just thought I'd mention it.)

I'm blabbering too much.

Recapping: Thinking about it now while I'm typing it I think the main reason I tried to speedrun was because I first thought of it as some divine thing that only uber robot people could do, but upon seeing that DuckTales run I realised it's not always as divine as I thought. And figured I could even try and give it a shot.
With that being the conclusion I probably wouldn't have started speedrunning if the run wasn't online.

So bottom line:
I'm not saying it's a good idea, but I'm am saying it shouldn't be dismissed 'laughable' without really thinking about it.

*I actually first did it on emulator, noticed I COULD do better, found out emulators weren't allowed on SDA (yes I really didn't know too much about it), was very sad. Posted my emulator runs on youtube. Thought about it a few weeks/months and eventually bought the NES and went to speedrun it.

Haven't posted here yet (have read the whole thread). 
And thought it was about time to speak up.

Seeing as some people laugh at Spider-Waffle's idea.

I'm referring to this:

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]
Really I don't see much problem with hosting a run that isn't all that it can be, or even that impressively fast.  Viewers can decide for themselves which runs they want to see.  SDA makes no claims that all the speedruns hosted here are of great quality.

...

I know for me, finding the first HL run posted on this is what brought me here.  I was interested in speedrunning HL at the time.  Seeing this run greatly motivated me to work harder on the HL speedrunning project I had been envisioning.  I'd later create a run that was about TWICE as fast as this run, the word "twice" should be of some indication of the quality of the first HL run.  Had this run been rejected because of quality who knows if there would even be a HL run on this site, not to mention all the other speedruns and support that came from me other people brought to the site by virtue of it having a HL speedrun.[/quote]

While my general idea is that SDA should have a high standard and only good runs I cannot help but say that the reason I got into speedrunning was because I knew of SDA for some time (not that well though) and was just checking some random video's of old games.
I must add that at the moment the idea I had of SDA was that there were only devine runs on there (I only knew like contra and SMB and stuff like those). At that time I sort of had the idea all runs were like that :).

Anyway, when I stumbled across the DuckTales speedrun and saw how it's done (with all due respect) I thought...
Hell I can do that better. So I went off*, bought me a working NES (yay for cheap stuff) and got to it.
Noticed I enjoyed doing it (and knowing that in general I seem to be good at gaming), that in combination with the responds one can get I started thinking about speedrunning more games.

Now the only question is... If the speedrun wasn't there would I think "huh what? why? that game owns! 'sad face'" and just walked further or would I investigate and try to do one myself... It's really hard to answer that tbh. (so I won't).

What I do know is that if the DuckTales speedrun was 100% perfect I would probably never got into speedrunning :) (although that has nothing to do with Spider-Waffle's argument I just thought I'd mention it.)

I'm blabbering too much.

Recapping: Thinking about it now while I'm typing it I think the main reason I tried to speedrun was because I first thought of it as some divine thing that only uber robot people could do, but upon seeing that DuckTales run I realised it's not always as divine as I thought. And figured I could even try and give it a shot.
With that being the conclusion I probably wouldn't have started speedrunning if the run wasn't online.

So bottom line:
I'm not saying it's a good idea, but I'm am saying it shouldn't be dismissed 'laughable' without really thinking about it.

*I actually first did it on emulator, noticed I COULD do better, found out emulators weren't allowed on SDA (yes I really didn't know too much about it), was very sad. Posted my emulator runs on youtube. Thought about it a few weeks/months and eventually bought the NES and went to speedrun it.

InstinctSage

2009-07-03 01:51:11 am

Ur-Quan. You're for dinner.

Well, from my end, I've been watching SDA on and off for years, but recently noticed there was no speedrun of Castlevania Dracula X, and said "What? No way, that game pwns!" (Screw the RoB lovers out there) and have got to work on it.

Earlier I felt the same way about for Metroid Prime 3, but the game just never sat so well with me. I doubt I'd have the patience to do it justice. And in truth it's just too complicated for my level right now.

I do understand that when the run is divine you look at it and go "Wow" and aren't going to feel inclined to spend months/years of effort to get into a position where you could shave a few seconds off. A bad run, on the other hand, is asking to be beaten. On the one hand, I feel like "Yeah, if there's no run there, we can be a little lenient, can't we?"

But on the other hand, I think... Runs really only get rejected if you know you can do better, and just didn't. It's gotta be somewhat crushing, but at the same time, if you've taken the effort to be so close to making a really good run, why sell yourself short just to get it over with?

Well, from my end, I've been watching SDA on and off for years, but recently noticed there was no speedrun of Castlevania Dracula X, and said "What? No way, that game pwns!" (Screw the RoB lovers out there) and have got to work on it.

Earlier I felt the same way about for Metroid Prime 3, but the game just never sat so well with me. I doubt I'd have the patience to do it justice. And in truth it's just too complicated for my level right now.

I do understand that when the run is divine you look at it and go "Wow" and aren't going to feel inclined to spend months/years of effort to get into a position where you could shave a few seconds off. A bad run, on the other hand, is asking to be beaten. On the one hand, I feel like "Yeah, if there's no run there, we can be a little lenient, can't we?"

But on the other hand, I think... Runs really only get rejected if you know you can do better, and just didn't. It's gotta be somewhat crushing, but at the same time, if you've taken the effort to be so close to making a really good run, why sell yourself short just to get it over with?

Lag.Com

2009-07-03 02:23:14 am

sda loyalist

Spider's freaking crazy.

1. You can also edit server variables like gravity and friction in Quake from the console (or using a script, ho ho ho) but that makes your runs invalid. It's an in-game feature, but it isn't a legitimate one for our purposes.

2. "They make you look like you can do something you otherwise could not"

3. There are more casual gamers than non-casual, and SDA's current focus is to appeal to the masses. A lot of casual gamers (or non-gamers) think stuff like sequence breaking is cheating already. We probably shouldn't try to include more things that are 'cheating'.

4. If your PC can't run the game, you can (almost) always lower settings. If a script forces equality across platforms, you are not playing the original game, you are playing game-with-script.

5. This is true. SDA has always been like this. Unless we go the route of having 'official SDA representatives' standing by you and watching for legitimacy (or preparing the PC you will use themselves), it always will be. We are creating entertainment. It's about personal satisfaction. And fun. And a host of other things I'm forgetting.

In short, you are very loud. It's a shame you're so coherent.

Spider's freaking crazy.

1.  You can also edit server variables like gravity and friction in Quake from the console (or using a script, ho ho ho) but that makes your runs invalid. It's an in-game feature, but it isn't a legitimate one for our purposes.

2.  "They make you look like you can do something you otherwise could not"

3.  There are more casual gamers than non-casual, and SDA's current focus is to appeal to the masses. A lot of casual gamers (or non-gamers) think stuff like sequence breaking is cheating already. We probably shouldn't try to include more things that are 'cheating'.

4.  If your PC can't run the game, you can (almost) always lower settings. If a script forces equality across platforms, you are not playing the original game, you are playing game-with-script.

5.  This is true. SDA has always been like this. Unless we go the route of having 'official SDA representatives' standing by you and watching for legitimacy (or preparing the PC you will use themselves), it always will be. We are creating entertainment. It's about personal satisfaction. And fun. And a host of other things I'm forgetting.

In short, you are very loud. It's a shame you're so coherent.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

Spider-Waffle

Edit history:

Spider-Waffle: 2009-07-03 01:43:44 pm

2009-07-03 06:08:34 am

Don't think! feeeeeal

Quote from lag:

Spider's freaking crazy.

1. You can also edit server variables like gravity and friction in Quake from the console (or using a script, ho ho ho) but that makes your runs invalid. It's an in-game feature, but it isn't a legitimate one for our purposes.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

1. It's a legitimate in-game feature which doesn't change the game mechanics much like customizing your config which the game makers intended to be used when playing the game in a regular manner.

I specifically made the point that scripts don't change game mechanics because I know people like bring up cheat cheat codes, game sharks and server variables thinking there aren't any critical differences for some reason. This counter example fails. Still yet to see a counter to this.

Quote from lag:

2. "They make you look like you can do something you otherwise could not"

To some this outweighs the way they enhance the display of human skill, to others it doesn't.

Quote from lag:

3. There are more casual gamers than non-casual, and SDA's current focus is to appeal to the masses. A lot of casual gamers (or non-gamers) think stuff like sequence breaking is cheating already. We probably shouldn't try to include more things that are 'cheating'.

It depends on the game, for older PC games like HL, quake, or q3 the majority that still play these games aren't casual gamers. And lets not forget casual gamers have been known to use scripts too.

Satisfying the majority opinion at all costs I don't think is always the best solution. If 49% of the people want to keep a separate category and 51% want to abolish it, I think you need to look at how much abolishing it hurts the people that want vs. how much keeping it hurts the people that don't want. In the case of scripts, I really don't see how the separate category is hurting anyone that much. Does SDA want to cater to the majority, or does it want to maximize the total utility? There's a difference.

Quote from lag:

4. If your PC can't run the game, you can (almost) always lower settings. If a script forces equality across platforms, you are not playing the original game, you are playing game-with-script.

Well, if it's an in-game script you ARE playing the original game. If it isn't, ok, so your playing the game plus an out of game script, but if this script is merely a replacement for what common hardware could do, thus shifting the focus away from what kind of hardware you have and onto what kind of human skills you have, what part of the end result do you have a problem with? I don't see how you counter this. You seem to be confused, the hardware I'm referring to is input hardware. If you still insist there is something inherently wrong with this, look at it as replacing one evil with a lesser evil.

Quote from lag:

5. This is true. SDA has always been like this. Unless we go the route of having 'official SDA representatives' standing by you and watching for legitimacy (or preparing the PC you will use themselves), it always will be. We are creating entertainment. It's about personal satisfaction. And fun. And a host of other things I'm forgetting.

It isn't though. There ARE ways SDA can enforce it's current rules. There IS a chance of getting caught violating the rules by a keen verifier. Dishonesty ISN'T strictly rewarded. If you ban things which you have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of enforcing, which is the case for certain scripts, your rule is doing a great disservice to the honest people in the community. You did not counter this, you just gave a fallacious premise that SDA is already in this terrible state of not being able to enforce it's rules, then concluded it's okay it continue with this terrible state.

[quote="lag"]
Spider's freaking crazy.

1.  You can also edit server variables like gravity and friction in Quake from the console (or using a script, ho ho ho) but that makes your runs invalid. It's an in-game feature, but it isn't a legitimate one for our purposes.[/quote]

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]1.  It's a legitimate in-game feature [i][b]which doesn't change the game mechanics[/b][/i] much like customizing your config which the game makers intended to be used when playing the game in a regular manner.[/quote]

I specifically made the point that scripts don't change game mechanics because I know people like bring up cheat cheat codes, game sharks and server variables thinking there aren't any critical differences for some reason.  This counter example fails.  Still yet to see a counter to this.

[quote="lag"]
2.  "They make you look like you can do something you otherwise could not"[/quote]
To some this outweighs the way they enhance the display of human skill, to others it doesn't.

[quote="lag"]
3.  There are more casual gamers than non-casual, and SDA's current focus is to appeal to the masses. A lot of casual gamers (or non-gamers) think stuff like sequence breaking is cheating already. We probably shouldn't try to include more things that are 'cheating'.[/quote]

It depends on the game, for older PC games like HL, quake, or q3 the majority that still play these games aren't casual gamers.  And lets not forget casual gamers have been known to use scripts too.

Satisfying the majority opinion at all costs I don't think is always the best solution.  If 49% of the people want to keep a separate category and 51% want to abolish it, I think you need to look at how much abolishing it hurts the people that want vs. how much keeping it hurts the people that don't want.  In the case of scripts, I really don't see how the separate category is hurting anyone that much.  Does SDA want to cater to the majority, or does it want to maximize the total utility?  There's a difference.

[quote="lag"]
4.  If your PC can't run the game, you can (almost) always lower settings. If a script forces equality across platforms, you are not playing the original game, you are playing game-with-script.[/quote]

Well, if it's an in-game script you ARE playing the original game.  If it isn't, ok, so your playing the game plus an out of game script, but if this script is merely a replacement for what common hardware could do, thus shifting the focus away from what kind of hardware you have and onto what kind of human skills you have, what part of the end result do you have a problem with?  I don't see how you counter this.  You seem to be confused, the hardware I'm referring to is input hardware.  If you still insist there is something inherently wrong with this, look at it as replacing one evil with a lesser evil.

[quote="lag"]
5.  This is true. SDA has always been like this. Unless we go the route of having 'official SDA representatives' standing by you and watching for legitimacy (or preparing the PC you will use themselves), it always will be. We are creating entertainment. It's about personal satisfaction. And fun. And a host of other things I'm forgetting.[/quote]

It isn't though.  There ARE ways SDA can enforce it's current rules.  There IS a chance of getting caught violating the rules by a keen verifier.  Dishonesty ISN'T strictly rewarded.  If you ban things which you have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of enforcing, which is the case for certain scripts, your rule is doing a great disservice to the honest people in the community.  You did not counter this, you just gave a fallacious premise that SDA is already in this terrible state of not being able to enforce it's rules, then concluded it's okay it continue with this terrible state.

zoonel

2009-07-03 07:00:50 am

Go play spacechem !

Quote:

If you ban things which you have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of enforcing, which is the case for certain scripts,

wich is the case of cheats too, still SDA doesnt allow cheaters

Quote:

1. It's a legitimate in-game feature which doesn't change the game mechanics much like customizing your config which the game makers intended to be used when playing the game in a regular manner.

180° auto turn, no recoil scripts, fast pistol shoots, etc... doesnt change game mechanics still you can get banned from server to do this.
Buny hop can be illegal in matches, or allowed but not with scripts or encouraged + script allowed. It just depends on the game and ligue you are playing.

Quote:

for older PC games like HL, quake, or q3 the majority that still play these gays aren't casual gamers

Maybe because of the scripts?
I tried quake once, i got disgusted by all those rocketjump / sniper kill , i tried to see what i could do to imporve my skill but when i saw those scripts i stopped playing.
But i still played cs where if you dont have a buy script you are not competitive at all (depends also on the buy time, but if there isnt!).

Scripts for rapid pistol change, AK/M4 in one key and such are there to gain some time and palliate the with unergonomic controls not to allow to pull off an hard trick 100% of the time.

[quote]If you ban things which you have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of enforcing, which is the case for certain scripts, [/quote]
wich is the case of cheats too, still SDA doesnt allow cheaters

[quote]1.  It's a legitimate in-game feature which doesn't change the game mechanics much like customizing your config which the game makers intended to be used when playing the game in a regular manner.[/quote]
180° auto turn, no recoil scripts, fast pistol shoots, etc... doesnt change game mechanics still you can get banned from server to do this.
Buny hop can be illegal in matches, or allowed but not with scripts or encouraged + script allowed. It just depends on the game and ligue you are playing.

[quote]for older PC games like HL, quake, or q3 the majority that still play these gays aren't casual gamers[/quote]
Maybe because of the scripts?
I tried  quake once, i got disgusted by all those rocketjump / sniper kill , i tried to see what i could do to imporve my skill but when i saw those scripts i stopped playing.
But i still played cs where if you dont have a buy script you are not competitive at all (depends also on the buy time, but if there isnt!).

Scripts for rapid pistol change, AK/M4 in one key and such are there to gain some time and palliate the with unergonomic controls not to allow to pull off an hard trick 100% of the time.

dex

2009-07-03 07:05:11 am

Invisible avatar

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

It depends on the game, for older PC games like HL, quake, or q3 the majority that still play these gays aren't casual gamers.

I am simply not letting you edit this one out ;).

for 1. Certain scripts can push the mechanics of the game very far (example: my 100m script), which is arguably the same thing server variables do. Also, what's with this 'the game makers intended to be used'? Who is to say what designers intended and what they did not? Perhaps the script system in the Quake engine is just a relict of how the game is programmed, not an intended feature? You can't be sure of that.

for 2., what Lag says is very correct. And what you say seems not very correct, since I haven't seen anyone besides you ever say 'oooh he uses a script, he must be great'. It simply doesn't work that way.

3. "Satisfying the majority opinion at all costs I don't think is always the best solution." It is if you want to appeal to masses. And just because people who PLAY the games like Half-Life or Quake are mostly non-casual gamers, doesn't mean the people that WATCH the runs are all non-casual. Maybe they just remember 'oooh, I played this a few years ago, this is a cool game, I want to watch'. Most casual gamers indeed consider sequence breaks cheating, let alone scripts. Heck, I had my Deus Ex run criticised for sequence breaking by gamers from a Deus Ex site.

4. Honestly, input hardware on PC is pretty standard. Keyboard, mouse with mousewheel. Just because someone might have a slightly better hardware for running a certain game is no basis for allowing something *completely replacing* the input hardware. That's like if a Formula 1 driver had a slightly worse car - should therefore everyone be allowed to purposefully hit his competitors to 'level the playing field'?

5. Pretty much every movement script is easy to catch. It's relatively simple to know if someone uses a mousewheel to bunny (he would choke on certain terrain), and if someone is using a script (perfect bunnyhop all the time). And that's the hardest-to-notice movement script that is actually beneficial to the runner I can think of.

That we trust the runners and hence might let some things slip is no basis for allowing something, either. Sure, someone might slip by. Doesn't mean we should allow everything.

Someone might slip by with cheating, should we therefore allow cheats? Someone might slip by making an emulator run with savestates, should we therefore allow emulators and savestates?

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]It depends on the game, for older PC games like HL, quake, or q3 the majority that still play these gays aren't casual gamers.[/quote]
I am simply not letting you edit this one out ;).

for 1. Certain scripts can push the mechanics of the game very far (example: my 100m script), which is arguably the same thing server variables do. Also, what's with this 'the game makers intended to be used'? Who is to say what designers intended and what they did not? Perhaps the script system in the Quake engine is just a relict of how the game is programmed, not an intended feature? You can't be sure of that.

for 2., what Lag says is very correct. And what you say seems not very correct, since I haven't seen anyone besides you ever say 'oooh he uses a script, he must be great'. It simply doesn't work that way.

3. "Satisfying the majority opinion at all costs I don't think is always the best solution." It is if you want to appeal to masses. And just because people who PLAY the games like Half-Life or Quake are mostly non-casual gamers, doesn't mean the people that WATCH the runs are all non-casual. Maybe they just remember 'oooh, I played this a few years ago, this is a cool game, I want to watch'. Most casual gamers indeed consider sequence breaks cheating, let alone scripts. Heck, I had my Deus Ex run criticised for sequence breaking by gamers from a Deus Ex site.

4. Honestly, input hardware on PC is pretty standard. Keyboard, mouse with mousewheel. Just because someone might have a slightly better hardware for running a certain game is no basis for allowing something *completely replacing* the input hardware. That's like if a Formula 1 driver had a slightly worse car - should therefore everyone be allowed to purposefully hit his competitors to 'level the playing field'?

5. Pretty much every movement script is easy to catch. It's relatively simple to know if someone uses a mousewheel to bunny (he would choke on certain terrain), and if someone is using a script (perfect bunnyhop all the time). And that's the hardest-to-notice movement script that is actually beneficial to the runner I can think of.

That we trust the runners and hence might let some things slip is no basis for allowing something, either. Sure, someone might slip by. Doesn't mean we should allow everything.

Someone might slip by with cheating, should we therefore allow cheats? Someone might slip by making an emulator run with savestates, should we therefore allow emulators and savestates?

Lag.Com

2009-07-03 07:25:45 am

sda loyalist

Spider is freaking crazy.

1. Scripts don't change the game mechanics? True! However, this viewpoint is uselessly narrow. We care about what changes the speedrunner's capabilities.

3. I'm hardly a proponent of trying to satisfy the majority, but then again I don't run this site. That's the view 'the management' have pushed down, so I'm arguing for it. I have nothing against scripting being a separate category called 'cheating'. And being a different site.

4. No, you didn't understand. I didn't mean stuff like AHK. I meant that if everybody plays, say, HL2 using a script that makes it easier to bunnyhop, everyone is now playing HL2-but-easier-to-bunnyhop. It's a different game.

5. There are many things in the rules that are banned that we have no way of enforcing already. Trust is not an issue for us. We just trust. Rarely is this trust broken, and we like it that way. There's nothing terrible about it. Without trust there would be no records on this site.

VorpalEdge

2009-07-03 09:58:16 am

welcome to the machine

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

funny you use "making tricks easier". Did you see my arguments for scripts?

...

2. They can enhance speedrunning as a display of human skill by shifting the focus onto human skills which are more readily noticed and appreciated.

I think he did, Spider.

ShadowWraith

2009-07-03 10:12:45 am

.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

Satisfying the majority opinion at all costs I don't think is always the best solution. If 49% of the people want to keep a separate category and 51% want to abolish it, I think you need to look at how much abolishing it hurts the people that want vs. how much keeping it hurts the people that don't want. In the case of scripts, I really don't see how the separate category is hurting anyone that much. Does SDA want to cater to the majority, or does it want to maximize the total utility? There's a difference.

Quote from mikwuyma:

Groobo's argument about letting in more runs doesn't hold much water because scripted runs make up less than 1% of the total runs on the site, and maybe 2-3% of the pc runs on the site.

I'd say there wasn't much support for scripts given that you're the only person in this entire thread arguing for them (that I've seen) and as mike has already said, we don't exactly have a huge base of scripted runs anyway. Certainly nothing like a 51/49 split.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

Well, if it's an in-game script you ARE playing the original game. If it isn't, ok, so your playing the game plus an out of game script, but if this script is merely a replacement for what common hardware could do, thus shifting the focus away from what kind of hardware you have and onto what kind of human skills you have, what part of the end result do you have a problem with? I don't see how you counter this. You seem to be confused, the hardware I'm referring to is input hardware. If you still insist there is something inherently wrong with this, look at it as replacing one evil with a lesser evil.

What, the 'common' hardware which is... y'know... banned? Seriously, I can't see how someone could allow turbo scripts without allowing turbo controllers for consoles, and that opens up a can of worms we really don't want to be opening.

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]

Satisfying the majority opinion at all costs I don't think is always the best solution.  If 49% of the people want to keep a separate category and 51% want to abolish it, I think you need to look at how much abolishing it hurts the people that want vs. how much keeping it hurts the people that don't want.  In the case of scripts, I really don't see how the separate category is hurting anyone that much.  Does SDA want to cater to the majority, or does it want to maximize the total utility?  There's a difference.[/quote]

[quote="mikwuyma"]
Groobo's argument about letting in more runs doesn't hold much water because scripted runs make up less than 1% of the total runs on the site, and maybe 2-3% of the pc runs on the site.
[/quote]

I'd say there wasn't much support for scripts given that you're the only person in this entire thread arguing for them (that I've seen) and as mike has already said, we don't exactly have a huge base of scripted runs anyway. Certainly nothing like a 51/49 split.

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]
Well, if it's an in-game script you ARE playing the original game.  If it isn't, ok, so your playing the game plus an out of game script, but if this script is merely a replacement for what common hardware could do, thus shifting the focus away from what kind of hardware you have and onto what kind of human skills you have, what part of the end result do you have a problem with?  I don't see how you counter this.  You seem to be confused, the hardware I'm referring to is input hardware.  If you still insist there is something inherently wrong with this, look at it as replacing one evil with a lesser evil.[/quote]

What, the 'common' hardware which is... y'know... [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/lang/rules_en.html]banned[/url]? Seriously, I can't see how someone could allow turbo scripts without allowing turbo controllers for consoles, and that opens up a can of worms we really don't want to be opening.

TheRandomPie_IV

2009-07-03 01:15:18 pm

Quote from ShadowWraith:

What, the 'common' hardware which is... y'know... banned? Seriously, I can't see how someone could allow turbo scripts without allowing turbo controllers for consoles, and that opens up a can of worms we really don't want to be opening.

Turbo controllers are already allowed for games/consoles that are officially distributed with them (TG-16) I don't see why turbo scripts should be treated differently.

arkarian

2009-07-03 02:08:57 pm

gamelogs.org

because scripts allow you to do pretty much anything you want with no effort?

Lag.Com

2009-07-03 02:57:50 pm

sda loyalist

Quote from Arkarian:

because scripts allow you to do pretty much anything you want with no effort?

this, so hard

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2009-07-03 03:02:36 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

1. Dex, you'll have to make that argument that input is the same as changing the game mechanics. I'll contact valve and ID and try to find out if they intended scripts to be used for their games. If they say they did, what will your counter be?

You say scripts may be legitimate in-game features, but they change what you can do in the game. I see this the same as changing your config from something that's non-default. With a default config there are many things you can't do, like fast weapon switch in HL, or binding keys to bring up a weapon right away, or pressing two actions on the key board at the same time which are defaulted really far apart. Should changing your config have no place at SDA as well because it allows you to do things which you otherwise couldn't do? I know there are people on SDA which think this. If there were ten of them lobbing for this in this thread, what do you think would happen?

2. Most people either are having a hard time understanding my argument here and/or they're being very closed minded.

3. SDA has to realize that if they don't appease the people which play these games and will make good speedruns for them, there won't be good speedruns for viewers to see. You can't just make rules to which only allow runs the majority of casual viewers will want to see and expect these runs to get made by non-casual skilled gamers.

4. dex, it's more like if all the drivers had to make their own car and there weren't any restriction on what they could make. Now the racing is less a product driving skill and more of how good of a car can you make. Rather than having it be this way, I'm saying it's better that the league supply every driver with their own car which is exactly the same as all the other cars.

5. There's scripts like weapon changing, wav playing, and many others which I'd love to know how you plan to catch. Also jump spaming scripts like "jump;wait;jump" you can't distinguish between that and a mouse wheel. In fact there was a HL run hosted on SDA which used one and no one knew it did until the runner said he used it later after scripts were made an issue.

What rules does SDA currently have which it has ABSOLUTELY NO way of enforcing? Either the rules or the enforcement should be changed if this is the case. You also have to look at how easily a runner could cheat the rules. In case of things like weapon change scripts it's already in their config so it's ZERO effort on their part, in fact they would have to be burdened to redo their config in order to follow this rule.

1.  Dex, you'll have to make that argument that input is the same as changing the game mechanics.  I'll contact valve and ID and try to find out if they intended scripts to be used for their games.  If they say they did, what will your counter be?

You say scripts may be legitimate in-game features, but they change what you can do in the game.  I see this the same as changing your config from something that's non-default.  With a default config there are many things you can't do, like fast weapon switch in HL, or binding keys to bring up a weapon right away, or pressing two actions on the key board at the same time which are defaulted really far apart.  Should changing your config have no place at SDA as well because it allows you to do things which you otherwise couldn't do?  I know there are people on SDA which think this.  If there were ten of them lobbing for this in this thread, what do you think would happen?

2.  Most people either are having a hard time understanding my argument here and/or they're being very closed minded.

3.  SDA has to realize that if they don't appease the people which play these games and will make good speedruns for them, there won't be good speedruns for viewers to see.  You can't just make rules to which only allow runs the majority of casual viewers will want to see and expect these runs to get made by non-casual skilled gamers.

4. dex, it's more like if all the drivers had to make their own car and there weren't any restriction on what they could make.  Now the racing is less a product driving skill and more of how good of a car can you make.  Rather than having it be this way, I'm saying it's better that the league supply every driver with their own car which is exactly the same as all the other cars.

5.  There's scripts like weapon changing, wav playing, and many others which I'd love to know how you plan to catch.  Also jump spaming scripts like "jump;wait;jump" you can't distinguish between that and a mouse wheel.  In fact there was a HL run hosted on SDA which used one and no one knew it did until the runner said he used it later after scripts were made an issue.

What rules does SDA currently have which it has ABSOLUTELY NO way of enforcing?  Either the rules or the enforcement should be changed if this is the case.  You also have to look at how easily a runner could cheat the rules.  In case of things like weapon change scripts it's already in their config so it's ZERO effort on their part, in fact they would have to be burdened to redo their config in order to follow this rule.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2009-07-03 03:03:29 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

Quote from Arkarian:

because scripts allow you to do pretty much anything you want with no effort?

And this is why there needs to be regulations on scripts.

Lag.Com

2009-07-03 04:02:44 pm

sda loyalist

At least you've stopped outright insulting people. However, you're just repeating yourself. Dissent is a good thing. You've said your part. Thankfully your views are in the minority, so they can be safely dissected and then ignored.

ZenicReverie

2009-07-03 06:01:35 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I forget who, but someone mentioned about dying or restarting in a game that didn't count it against the in-game timer, and I came across the Shinobi page that stated it just wasn't allowed to die or restart because of this. Should this be added to rules as a constant?

VorpalEdge

2009-07-03 09:29:22 pm

welcome to the machine

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

What rules does SDA currently have which it has ABSOLUTELY NO way of enforcing?

Uh, 99% of the single-segment runs on the site could actually be segmented runs spliced together with relatively simple video editing, so the answer to your question is... uh, most of them?