Official 2009 Rules Reworking Discussion [locked]

2009-07-04 06:38:46 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

If I remember correctly, you get a message in THPS4 that a cheat is unlocked after meeting a certain condition. After that you can turn it on via the pause menu without exiting the game.

InstinctSage

2009-07-05 07:19:45 pm

Ur-Quan. You're for dinner.

Not knowing the game, it sounds like if they weren't called "cheats" obtained from "cheato" but "Upgrades" obtained from "Upgrado" there wouldn't be so much of a fuss about that game. Tongue

InsipidMuckyWater

2009-07-05 10:18:03 pm

Visit my profile to see my runs!

^ Agreed.

That's why I was saying one of the reasons they were allowed was probably because they weren't spectacularly powerful. Whether they're really cheats or not is a good question. They wouldn't seem like cheats at all if you didn't have to enter a 'password'. Btw, DJGrenola, yeah, I was just joking. The 'rules' were just observations which, as I mentioned, were probably completely unrelated to why the category was created.

Dex or anybody else: So according to Mike we ARE allowing scripts for Half-Life games, among a couple others, but for no other games (grandfather rule)? Sorry, the reason I'm confused about this is just that the scripting debate has been going on for five pages past that announcement, so it never struck me like anything was settled about Half-Life (in particular) scripts. I'm pretty sure that's what Mike was saying; I guess it was just overlooked.

ninetigerr

Edit history:

ninetigerr: 2009-07-05 11:25:41 pm

2009-07-05 11:09:12 pm

Quote:

that's how i think a banjo-tooie run with cheats can be justified, though the current run uses cheats that you don't get in-game from cheato, such as "jiggywiggyspecial". they're extra cheats put in by rareware, much like those in tony hawk or goldeneye, that i would equate with scripts. i'm against accepting more runs using such cheats.

Yes, Rare intentionally programmed "jiggywiggyspecial" for players to exploit. We should not discourage players from playing the game in the manner it was intended.

"Cheats" which are activated by a specific button sequence, or a specific string of words, are deliberately programmed into the game by game's developers. In other words, the developers are encouraging players to take advantage of these "cheats."

There is no reason to disallow runs for using this kind of cheat. However, since they can significantly boost the player's ability with _zero_ effort, they should be reinforced as a separate category. This system seems to already be in effect -- Banjo-Tooie, for instance.

[quote]that's how i think a banjo-tooie run with cheats can be justified, though the current run uses cheats that you don't get in-game from cheato, such as "jiggywiggyspecial". they're extra cheats put in by rareware, much like those in tony hawk or goldeneye, that i would equate with scripts. i'm against accepting more runs using such cheats.[/quote]

Yes, Rare intentionally programmed "jiggywiggyspecial" for players to exploit. We should not discourage players from playing the game in the manner it was intended.

"Cheats" which are activated by a specific button sequence, or a specific string of words, are deliberately programmed into the game by game's developers. In other words, the developers are encouraging players to take advantage of these "cheats."

There is no reason to disallow runs for using this kind of cheat. However, since they can significantly boost the player's ability with _zero_ effort, they should be reinforced as a separate category. This system seems to already be in effect -- Banjo-Tooie, for instance.

Zealie

2009-07-05 11:43:17 pm

Quote from InstinctSage:

Not knowing the game, it sounds like if they weren't called "cheats" obtained from "cheato" but "Upgrades" obtained from "Upgrado" there wouldn't be so much of a fuss about that game. Tongue

You could also call the tony hawk 'cheats' 'upgrades'. Furthermore in the run there are cheats (or upgrages as you will) used that you cannot collect by any means but are already put there by rare. (I do not know this for sure personally, but other people are claiming it and I'm assuming they know what they are talking about)
Same goes for Goldeneye, although those are a bit more obvious 'cheating codes' and you have to enter/activate them before beginning the actual game.
The fact that you have to do a certain sequance of specific button clicking kinda gives away it are cheats imho.
In this case, enter a password, sometimes it's press a certain sequance of certain buttons.

And the thing is...

Quote from ninetigerr:

Yes, Rare intentionally programmed "jiggywiggyspecial" for players to exploit. We should not discourage players from playing the game in the manner it was intended.

"Cheats" which are activated by a specific button sequence, or a specific string of words, are deliberately programmed into the game by game's developers. In other words, the developers are encouraging players to take advantage of these "cheats."

There is no reason to disallow runs for using this kind of cheat. However, since they can significantly boost the player's ability with _zero_ effort, they should be reinforced as a separate category. This system seems to already be in effect -- Banjo-Tooie, for instance.

As far as I remember cheat codes are NOT allowed. That's why this gets me confused.
Now, honestly, I don't mind/care if they do it as a separate category, although I'm pretty sure some games would become totally lame when watching if used certain cheat codes.

So the main reason is (I'll just keep calling them cheats for the sake of consistency and not upgrades):

if you consider those cheatio's to be upgrades, why aren't other 'cheats' in games that are unlockable seen as upgrades, or are they?

If that's the case are only unlockable cheats allowed? And if so the current banjo-tooie run should just be 'grandfathered' or w/e you call it.

Or are only cheats allowed that can be entered ingame and if you can collect them?

As far as I know this all is a big black hole in the current SDA ruling, but I might be wrong and it all isn't allowed and for some reason (which I still don't find consistent imho) banjo-tooie is an exception.

The problem also is, is that if you say 'only cheats that don't make you all powerful are allowed' you'll basicly get seperate ruling for every game and from what I thought this is trying to be avoided.

P.S. I am merely posting all this for what it seems like a lack of consistency within certain ruling. Just thought it should be clarified.

[quote="InstinctSage"]
Not knowing the game, it sounds like if they weren't called "cheats" obtained from "cheato" but "Upgrades" obtained from "Upgrado" there wouldn't be so much of a fuss about that game.  :P
[/quote]

You could also call the tony hawk 'cheats' 'upgrades'. Furthermore in the run there are cheats (or upgrages as you will) used that you cannot collect by any means but are already put there by rare. (I do not know this for sure personally, but other people are claiming it and I'm assuming they know what they are talking about)
Same goes for Goldeneye, although those are a bit more obvious 'cheating codes' and you have to enter/activate them before beginning the actual game.
The fact that you have to do a certain sequance of specific button clicking kinda gives away it are cheats imho.
In this case, enter a password, sometimes it's press a certain sequance of certain buttons.

And the thing is...

[quote="ninetigerr"]

Yes, Rare intentionally programmed "jiggywiggyspecial" for players to exploit. We should not discourage players from playing the game in the manner it was intended.

"Cheats" which are activated by a specific button sequence, or a specific string of words, are deliberately programmed into the game by game's developers. In other words, the developers are encouraging players to take advantage of these "cheats." 
[b]
There is no reason to disallow runs for using this kind of cheat. However, since they can significantly boost the player's ability with _zero_ effort, they should be reinforced as a separate category. This system seems to already be in effect [/b]-- Banjo-Tooie, for instance.

[/quote]

As far as I remember cheat codes are NOT allowed. That's why this gets me confused.
Now, honestly, I don't mind/care if they do it as a separate category, although I'm pretty sure some games would become totally lame when watching if used certain cheat codes.

So the main reason is (I'll just keep calling them cheats for the sake of consistency and not upgrades):

if you consider those cheatio's to be upgrades, why aren't other 'cheats' in games that are unlockable seen as upgrades, or are they?

If that's the case are only unlockable cheats allowed? And if so the current banjo-tooie run should just be 'grandfathered' or w/e you call it.

Or are only cheats allowed that can be entered ingame and if you can collect them?

As far as I know this all is a big black hole in the current SDA ruling, but I might be wrong and it all isn't allowed and for some reason (which I still don't find consistent imho) banjo-tooie is an exception.

The problem also is, is that if you say 'only cheats that don't make you all powerful are allowed' you'll basicly get seperate ruling for every game and from what I thought this is trying to be avoided.

P.S. I am merely posting all this for what it seems like a lack of consistency within certain ruling. Just thought it should be clarified.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2009-07-06 12:31:34 am

2009-07-05 11:58:52 pm

Visit my profile to see my runs!

^ Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. The above discussion was really just developing what rationale someone might have used when creating the category, but in the end I personally don't see a clear distinction between this and other potential cheats. I imagine that proposing rules, such as only allowing cheats which are unlocked-and-activated in-game, will only lead to problematic exceptions, and that regulating them on a case-by-case basis would be pretty impractical to say the least.

In short, either the Cheato category is a grandfathered inconsistency or there's one heck of an elusive criteria in there somewhere. I'm going with the former, as well.

LLCoolDave

2009-07-06 12:14:02 am

Short answer: It's there because somebody ran it, that's all there is to it, pretty much. The only cheats used are those that open up all levels, and I think those were the only ones allowed for the run, the idea is to plow through the game without having to collect all those jiggies. Why it was accepted? Possibly because it is significantly different from a normal run, but quite frankly I would be for getting rid of the category as well, despite having found a major timesaver for it that nobody has used in a run yet.

I'm still all for displaying the added penalty time of any kind seperately to the actual run time. It would take some time to relabel all existing runs that are affected, but I think we singlehandedly agreed that it is a better solution than hiding the penalty in the run time.

Scepheo

2009-07-06 04:57:31 am

I'm all for separately listing time and time+penalty as well.

And about the Banjo-Tooie Cheato stuff, how is the ruling about the eggs in the Jak and Daxter games? The only real difference is that they're activated trough a menu, because they do show up in your "status" and therefor should be required for a 100% run. Just like the Cheato Pages. And the cheats aren't all that ridiculous in Jak either, stuff like extra ammo capacity, damage bonuses, speeding up the cutscenes (skipable, so no timesaver). But also things like unlimited ammo and invulnerability. Just wondering.

And about scripts; if they're activated trough the console, they almost have to be banned. If you consider everything activated trough the console as "intended" and therefor "legit", then all hell breaks loose. Impulse 101. Or just activate god mode. Because, hey, the developers intended them to be used.

ExplodingCabbage

2009-07-06 06:56:51 am

I don't think you can ever justify blanket allowing of cheat codes as a seperate category. I mean, for starters, almost every PC game has level-skip codes.

Some codes entered on the main menu probably should be allowed (and currently are, I think) on the grounds that they're closer to being different game modes than cheats. I'm not sure how to objectively draw the line but I trust Mike's judgement on this.

I've never played Banjo-Tooie, but it sounds as though you have to unlock the codes before they're used, and they're not very powerful? I don't have a problem with that being a different category then (as has already been pointed out, they could just as easily have been called 'upgrades') since it seems as though the developers intended them to be used in normal play, by a typical player progressing through the game for the first time. Of course, again drawing the line and deciding when to allow categories like this is hard.

Also, obvious point but just to spell it out: if you get told cheat codes as a reward for accomplishing certain tasks, but you can enter them and they work without you ever 'unlocking' them in this way, then that's no different to codes you don't get told in-game and shouldn't be allowed as a seperate category. The only situation in which allowing any and all cheats should be allowed, as far as I can see, is when you actually need to unlock them in-game before it's possible to use them.

I don't think you can ever justify blanket allowing of cheat codes as a seperate category. I mean, for starters, almost every PC game has level-skip codes.

Some codes entered on the main menu probably should be allowed (and currently are, I think) on the grounds that they're closer to being different game modes than cheats. I'm not sure how to objectively draw the line but I trust Mike's judgement on this.

I've never played Banjo-Tooie, but it sounds as though you have to unlock the codes before they're used, and they're not very powerful? I don't have a problem with that being a different category then (as has already been pointed out, they could just as easily have been called 'upgrades') since it seems as though the developers intended them to be used [i]in normal play, by a typical player progressing through the game for the first time[/i]. Of course, again drawing the line and deciding when to allow categories like this is hard.

Also, obvious point but just to spell it out: if you get told cheat codes as a reward for accomplishing certain tasks, but you can enter them and they work without you ever 'unlocking' them in this way, then that's no different to codes you don't get told in-game and shouldn't be allowed as a seperate category. The only situation in which allowing any and all cheats should be allowed, as far as I can see, is when you actually need to unlock them in-game before it's possible to use them.

dex

2009-07-06 07:57:08 am

Invisible avatar

Quote from InsipidMuckyWater:

Dex or anybody else: So according to Mike we ARE allowing scripts for Half-Life games, among a couple others, but for no other games (grandfather rule)? Sorry, the reason I'm confused about this is just that the scripting debate has been going on for five pages past that announcement, so it never struck me like anything was settled about Half-Life (in particular) scripts. I'm pretty sure that's what Mike was saying; I guess it was just overlooked.

I think that's what Mike was saying, yeah. The script discussion currently is mainly 'what if someone wanted to submit a scripted run on another game', I believe.

And I'd prefer the penalty to be added to the actual time (the same way it is now).

ZenicReverie

2009-07-06 09:55:31 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Scepheo:

And about the Banjo-Tooie Cheato stuff, how is the ruling about the eggs in the Jak and Daxter games? The only real difference is that they're activated trough a menu, because they do show up in your "status" and therefor should be required for a 100% run. Just like the Cheato Pages. And the cheats aren't all that ridiculous in Jak either, stuff like extra ammo capacity, damage bonuses, speeding up the cutscenes (skipable, so no timesaver). But also things like unlimited ammo and invulnerability. Just wondering.

Which Jak and Daxter's have those cheats? I don't remember any of them being in the first one. I don't think anything has been decided on what 100% is, but usually if there's an in-game definition we go with that, so that means all orbs most likely.

leftysheroes

2009-07-06 10:34:53 am

In my opinion I don't think the Banjo-Tooie Cheato run has any place on SDA. In fact when I first found SDA over a year ago it was one of the first runs that I watched and my thinking was essentially why the hell would a site dedicated to legitamate speedruns allow a run that uses a cheatcode to open all of the levels and as a result I didn't come back to SDA to watch another run for at least 8 months.

As far as scripts go I"m certainly no expert on this matter but for the sake of argument lets imagine a dedicated Half-Life player who is familiar with scripts and how they work hears from a friend that he should go to SDA because there is an awesome Half-Life run posted there. How would he feel when he found out that the awesome legitamate Half-Life game uses programs that play part of the game for the runner. In most cases I imagine that he would be quite dissapointed by it.

That being said I agree that it would not be fair to remove scripted runs that already have been posted. It would also be in my opinion hypocritical to disallow scripted runs in the future when there is already scripted runs on the site so I think the best solution would be to allow scripted runs for all games that have them with a condition that SDA will not accept scripted runs for a game until that game already has a run that does not use them.

In my opinion I don't think the Banjo-Tooie Cheato run has any place on SDA. In fact when I first found SDA over a year ago it was one of the first runs that I watched and my thinking was essentially why the hell would a site dedicated to legitamate speedruns allow a run that uses a cheatcode to open all of the levels and as a result I didn't come back to SDA to watch another run for at least 8 months.

As far as scripts go I"m certainly no expert on this matter but for the sake of argument lets imagine a dedicated Half-Life player who is familiar with scripts and how they work hears from a friend that he should go to SDA because there is an awesome Half-Life run posted there. How would he feel when he found out that the awesome legitamate Half-Life game uses programs that play part of the game for the runner. In most cases I imagine that he would be quite dissapointed by it.

That being said I agree that it would not be fair to remove scripted runs that already have been posted. It would also be in my opinion hypocritical to disallow scripted runs in the future when there is already scripted runs on the site so I think the best solution would be to allow scripted runs for all games that have them with a condition that SDA will not accept scripted runs for a game until that game  already has a run that does not use them.

mikwuyma

2009-07-06 11:55:22 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from dex:

Quote from InsipidMuckyWater:

Dex or anybody else: So according to Mike we ARE allowing scripts for Half-Life games, among a couple others, but for no other games (grandfather rule)? Sorry, the reason I'm confused about this is just that the scripting debate has been going on for five pages past that announcement, so it never struck me like anything was settled about Half-Life (in particular) scripts. I'm pretty sure that's what Mike was saying; I guess it was just overlooked.

I think that's what Mike was saying, yeah. The script discussion currently is mainly 'what if someone wanted to submit a scripted run on another game', I believe.

Yes, that's what I was saying.

Quote:

And I'd prefer the penalty to be added to the actual time (the same way it is now).

This is probably best. I think having two times listed is a bad idea because it would invite a lot of confusion over which time is the real time.

Banjo-Tooie: I have no idea why the cheato run was posted. The first run was posted before I started working on SDA. I should probably just "freeze" (let the run stand, but don't let any other runs in) the category since I don't think cheato runs are a big deal (sorry mike89).

[quote="dex"]
[quote="InsipidMuckyWater"]Dex or anybody else: So according to Mike we [i]ARE[/i] allowing scripts for Half-Life games, among a couple others, but for no other games (grandfather rule)?  Sorry, the reason I'm confused about this is just that the scripting debate has been going on for five pages past that announcement, so it never struck me like anything was settled about Half-Life (in particular) scripts.  I'm pretty sure that's what Mike was saying; I guess it was just overlooked.[/quote]
I think that's what Mike was saying, yeah. The script discussion currently is mainly 'what if someone wanted to submit a scripted run on another game', I believe.
[/quote]

Yes, that's what I was saying.

[quote]
And I'd prefer the penalty to be added to the actual time (the same way it is now).
[/quote]

This is probably best. I think having two times listed is a bad idea because it would invite a lot of confusion over which time is the real time.

Banjo-Tooie: I have no idea why the cheato run was posted. The [url=http://www.archive.org/details/BanjoTooie_SS_Cheato_5625]first run[/url] was posted before I started working on SDA. I should probably just "freeze" (let the run stand, but don't let any other runs in) the category since I don't think cheato runs are a big deal (sorry mike89).

arkarian

2009-07-06 12:58:00 pm

gamelogs.org

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

I've never played Banjo-Tooie, but it sounds as though you have to unlock the codes before they're used, and they're not very powerful? I don't have a problem with that being a different category then (as has already been pointed out, they could just as easily have been called 'upgrades') since it seems as though the developers intended them to be used in normal play, by a typical player progressing through the game for the first time.

yeah, the codes that you earn in-game in banjo-tooie are mostly just stuff like double ammo, no fall damage, and regenerating health. since you have to collect the cheato pages to earn 100%, runners should theoretically be allowed to enter the codes they give to reap the benefits. of course, no one does that because if you're anywhere close to a decent player you won't need them. if the cheats you earn in-game actually made a run faster, i don't think sda could forbid the use of them in a vanilla 100% run. they're a part of the game and are really just upgrades.

the problem is that the current bt cheats run uses some cheats that you don't earn in-game (like 'jiggywiggyspecial'). the only way to know about that cheat is to look it up on gamefaqs or whatever. so that's why it's a separate category. however, i don't think this should even be allowed at all. same thing as scripts, really.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Also, obvious point but just to spell it out: if you get told cheat codes as a reward for accomplishing certain tasks, but you can enter them and they work without you ever 'unlocking' them in this way, then that's no different to codes you don't get told in-game and shouldn't be allowed as a seperate category.

dunno, nothing wrong with using prior knowledge, right? in my myst run i don't visit all the ages to learn the fireplace code; i just enter it. i think only cheats that you don't get told in-game shouldn't be allowed.

Quote from leftysheroes:

In my opinion I don't think the Banjo-Tooie Cheato run has any place on SDA. In fact when I first found SDA over a year ago it was one of the first runs that I watched and my thinking was essentially why the hell would a site dedicated to legitamate speedruns allow a run that uses a cheatcode to open all of the levels

i completely agree. see my reasoning above. it's not a big deal, yeah, but the run that's up certainly shouldn't be taken down. what mike said sounds best.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]I've never played Banjo-Tooie, but it sounds as though you have to unlock the codes before they're used, and they're not very powerful? I don't have a problem with that being a different category then (as has already been pointed out, they could just as easily have been called 'upgrades') since it seems as though the developers intended them to be used [i]in normal play, by a typical player progressing through the game for the first time[/i].[/quote]

yeah, the codes that you earn in-game in banjo-tooie are mostly just stuff like double ammo, no fall damage, and regenerating health. since you have to collect the cheato pages to earn 100%, runners should theoretically be allowed to enter the codes they give to reap the benefits. of course, no one does that because if you're anywhere close to a decent player you won't need them. if the cheats you earn in-game actually made a run faster, i don't think sda could forbid the use of them in a vanilla 100% run. they're a part of the game and are really just upgrades.

the problem is that the current bt cheats run uses some cheats that you [i]don't[/i] earn in-game (like 'jiggywiggyspecial'). the only way to know about that cheat is to look it up on gamefaqs or whatever. so that's why it's a separate category. however, i don't think this should even be allowed at all. same thing as scripts, really.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]Also, obvious point but just to spell it out: if you get told cheat codes as a reward for accomplishing certain tasks, but you can enter them and they work without you ever 'unlocking' them in this way, then that's no different to codes you don't get told in-game and shouldn't be allowed as a seperate category.[/quote]

dunno, nothing wrong with using prior knowledge, right? in my myst run i don't visit all the ages to learn the fireplace code; i just enter it. i think only cheats that you don't get told in-game shouldn't be allowed.

[quote="leftysheroes"]In my opinion I don't think the Banjo-Tooie Cheato run has any place on SDA. In fact when I first found SDA over a year ago it was one of the first runs that I watched and my thinking was essentially why the hell would a site dedicated to legitamate speedruns allow a run that uses a cheatcode to open all of the levels[/quote]

i completely agree. see my reasoning above. it's not a big deal, yeah, but the run that's up certainly shouldn't be taken down. what mike said sounds best.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2009-07-06 03:06:07 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

I'd just first like to point at that all the games I care about using scripts in already have them grandfathered in as separate categories and this is staying for forever it seems. So when I'm arguing for SDA allowing scripted runs it's not really out of my own interest as this is already satisfied, I am really arguing for the best interest of SDA. The way I see it, the current runs SDA has hosted with scripts are among its most popular. If SDA had decided it didn't want to host these runs in separate categories along with non-scripted runs in another category SDA would clearly be a significantly less popular site. I really don't think it's in SDA's best interest to only host PC runs which don't use scripting as scripted runs seem to be widely accepted and acknowledged that they use scripts and people still flock to DL them from SDA and make their own fan videos about them saying they are "commonly known as the greatest achievement in all man-kind for the history and future of the world." while directing people to DL them at SDA.

Quote:

You know why everyone's getting confused? None of these analogies seem to hold up. See, I read this, and to me, scripting a run is like building a car. If you can build a script that automates many tasks in the game that are otherwise very difficult to perform, and especially difficult to perform while you're concentrating on other things, then you're building a better vehicle than someone who hasn't put all that effort into scripts, or is using inferior ones.
If the league is supplying everyone with their own car, that's the game out of the box.

I used this analogy to support the use of AHK turbo scripts in a separate category. That is one script, the same script, and made easily available to all, so runners don't have to deal with the mess of multiple mouse wheels, ipod wheels, turbo joysticks ect. ect. ect.; the possibilities of turbo functions with hardware are infinite are their effectiveness to the runner vary GREATLY.

As cabbage has pointed PC hardware rules are very hard to make and there currently aren't any. This why whenever I bring up things like turbo joysticks for PC people say they're banned by SDA, this is the fallacious premise everyone keeps using to try to counter my argument.

Yes as cabbage was able to realize I was referring to key conditions I explicitly made. For example, I say scripts are in-game feature which doesn't change the GAME MECHANICS, this really seems like a key difference which is hardly pointless, then people use cheats and server variables as counter examples which drastically change the game mechanics and aren't merely input as I had explicitly pointed out was the case with scripts.

Since some people still think they can distinguish scripts from custom configs through the difference in a menu and a console as if this difference is significant or important, I will try to point out all the things you can’t customize in a HL config through the menu.
1. Changing your fov
2. Binding specific keys to bring up specific weapons in one press
3. Changing your cl_pitchdown and cl_pitchup values so you can look more or less down or up than default
4. Adjusting your sensitivity to values lower than 0.1 and higher than 20.0
5. Adjusting your gamma to values lower than 1.8 and higher than 3.0
6. Adjusting your brightness to values higher than 1.0
7. The speed at which your aim moves when using +left, +right, +lookup, and +lookdown
8. The maximum number of decals
9. The color, length and speed of tracers
10. Making your mouse your aim at a different ratio for the horizontal and vertical axis
11. Changing your cl_forwardspeed to values less than 400
These are the most common ones people adjust. You also can’t use or adjust any of the commands found in the link below other than the few which are available through the menu. I don’t even know if this is a comprehensive list.
http://gamegate2k.com/half-life/basic-console-commands-halflife/

Even though it seems cabbage may be able to read and understand my posts better than anyone else, he still isn’t perfect. I guess I just must be really hard to read to or something considering no one can do it 100%.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Even the scripts you want to ALLOW are banned with Quake! And you keep saying you want to allow only certain scripts and ban others, but you're yet to suggest any objective rule to decide which scripts are allowed and which aren't (no, just saying 'those which require skilled human input' are allowed is not good enough, that's far too subjective). For someone who doesn't even know what he wants, you're remarkably determined to get it.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

I think the restrictions should be as specific and as objective as possible while doing their intended job which is to allow scripts which can enhance speedrunning as a display of human skill and only boycott scripts which are strictly or unnecessarily detracting from speedrunning as a display of human skill. I think for starters there needs to be some sort of restriction on the amount of time a script takes to execute. You might also want a restriction on scripting as a replacement for aiming. It also might be necessary to have a committee which decides if a script has crossed the line in terms of strictly detracting from the speedrun as a display of human skill. And if a runner isn’t sure whether or not his script would be allowed he could run it by the committee first. It would probably also be helpful to include example scripts of as many different types as possible saying which are accepted and which aren't so runners can compare their scripts to the example scripts to see if they're accepted or not.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

scripts which play significant sections of games entirely for you should be banned by SDA rules

If you want me to be more specific than that I could suggest rules like:
1. No 2 second interval can exist in a run for which the majority of the time had scripted input other than repeated spamming of commands.
2. No scripts can be used which specifically adjust your aim to as to aide in triggering a game event such as shooting a hitbox, destroying an entity or using an entity.

While I can emphasize with people who don’t like scripts, as I too used to have this viewpoint and I refused to use scripts up through the zenith of my tfc livelihood, I still think despite their downsides, which I’m not trying to deny, that they should have a place at SDA and that SDA will be more popular if they do.

I'd just first like to point at that all the games I care about using scripts in already have them grandfathered in as separate categories and this is staying for forever it seems.  So when I'm arguing for SDA allowing scripted runs it's not really out of my own interest as this is already satisfied, I am really arguing for the best interest of SDA.  The way I see it, the current runs SDA has hosted with scripts are among its most popular.  If SDA had decided it didn't want to host these runs in separate categories along with non-scripted runs in another category SDA would clearly be a significantly less popular site.  I really don't think it's in SDA's best interest to only host PC runs which don't use scripting as scripted runs seem to be widely accepted and acknowledged that they use scripts and people still flock to DL them from SDA and make their own fan videos about them saying they are "commonly known as the greatest achievement in all man-kind for the history and future of the world." while directing people to DL them at SDA.

[quote]You know why everyone's getting confused? None of these analogies seem to hold up. See, I read this, and to me, scripting a run is like building a car. If you can build a script that automates many tasks in the game that are otherwise very difficult to perform, and especially difficult to perform while you're concentrating on other things, then you're building a better vehicle than someone who hasn't put all that effort into scripts, or is using inferior ones.
If the league is supplying everyone with their own car, that's the game out of the box. [/quote]

I used this analogy to support the use of AHK turbo scripts in a separate category.  That is one script, the same script, and made easily available to all, so runners don't have to deal with the mess of multiple mouse wheels, ipod wheels, turbo joysticks ect. ect. ect.; the possibilities of turbo functions with hardware are infinite are their effectiveness to the runner vary GREATLY.

As cabbage has pointed PC hardware rules are very hard to make and there currently aren't any.  This why whenever I bring up things like turbo joysticks for PC people say they're banned by SDA, this is the fallacious premise everyone keeps using to try to counter my argument.

Yes as cabbage was able to realize I was referring to key conditions I explicitly made.  For example, I say scripts are in-game feature which doesn't change the GAME MECHANICS, this really seems like a key difference which is hardly pointless, then people use cheats and server variables as counter examples which drastically change the game mechanics and aren't merely input as I had explicitly pointed out was the case with scripts.

Since some people still think they can distinguish scripts from custom configs through the difference in a menu and a console as if this difference is significant or important, I will try to point out all the things you can’t customize in a HL config through the menu.
1.	Changing your fov
2.	Binding specific keys to bring up specific weapons in one press
3.	Changing your cl_pitchdown and cl_pitchup values so you can look more or less down or up than default
4.	Adjusting your sensitivity to values lower than 0.1 and higher than 20.0
5.	Adjusting your gamma to values lower than 1.8 and higher than 3.0
6.	Adjusting your brightness to values higher than 1.0
7.	The speed at which your aim moves when using +left, +right, +lookup, and +lookdown
8.	The maximum number of decals
9.	The color, length and speed of tracers
10.	Making your mouse your aim at a different ratio for the horizontal and vertical axis
11.	Changing your cl_forwardspeed to values less than 400
These are the most common ones people adjust.  You also can’t use or adjust any of the commands found in the link below other than the few which are available through the menu.  I don’t even know if this is a comprehensive list.
http://gamegate2k.com/half-life/basic-console-commands-halflife/

Even though it seems cabbage may be able to read and understand my posts better than anyone else, he still isn’t perfect.  I guess I just must be really hard to read to or something considering no one can do it 100%.
[quote="ExplodingCabbage"] Even the scripts you want to ALLOW are banned with Quake! And you keep saying you want to allow only certain scripts and ban others, but you're yet to suggest any objective rule to decide which scripts are allowed and which aren't (no, just saying 'those which require skilled human input' are allowed is not good enough, that's far too subjective). For someone who doesn't even know what he wants, you're remarkably determined to get it. [/quote]
[quote="Spider-Waffle"]I think the restrictions should be as specific and as objective as possible while doing their intended job which is to allow scripts which can enhance speedrunning as a display of human skill and only boycott scripts which are strictly or unnecessarily detracting from speedrunning as a display of human skill.  I think for starters there needs to be some sort of restriction on the amount of time a script takes to execute.  You might also want a restriction on scripting as a replacement for aiming.  It also might be necessary to have a committee which decides if a script has crossed the line in terms of strictly detracting from the speedrun as a display of human skill.  And if a runner isn’t sure whether or not his script would be allowed he could run it by the committee first.  It would probably also be helpful to include example scripts of as many different types as possible saying which are accepted and which aren't so runners can compare their scripts to the example scripts to see if they're accepted or not. [/quote]
[quote="Spider-Waffle"]scripts which play significant sections of games entirely for you should be banned by SDA rules [/quote]
If you want me to be more specific than that I could suggest rules like:
1.	No 2 second interval can exist in a run for which the majority of the time had scripted input other than repeated spamming of commands.
2.	No scripts can be used which specifically adjust your aim to as to aide in triggering a game event such as shooting a hitbox, destroying an entity or using an entity.

While I can emphasize with people who don’t like scripts, as I too used to have this viewpoint and I refused to use scripts up through the zenith of my tfc livelihood, I still think despite their downsides, which I’m not trying to deny, that they should have a place at SDA and that SDA will be more popular if they do.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2009-07-06 03:18:56 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

About the issue of save penalty time, it seemed to me that most everyone thought the actual time the run took was the most important time for viewers to see. I argue that viewers should most readily see the actual time of the run, including adjustment for save gaps, and the number of segments it uses. Then if they dig further they can find out the COMPETITION BASED QUOTIENT, which would be the actual run time in seconds (including adjustment for save gaps) plus .5 for every non-forced save, this could be in units not seconds so as not to confuse people of the actual time of the run (not that calling it the COMPETITION BASED QUOTIENT isn't clear enough)

What do people think of my proposed solution?

Scepheo

2009-07-06 03:26:01 pm

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

About the issue of save penalty time, it seemed to me that most everyone thought the actual time the run took was the most important time for viewers to see. I argue that viewers should most readily see the actual time of the run, including adjustment for save gaps, and the number of segments it uses. Then if they dig further they can find out the COMPETITION BASED QUOTIENT, which would be the actual run time in seconds (including adjustment for save gaps) plus .5 for every non-forced save, this could be in units not seconds so as not to confuse people of the actual time of the run (not that calling it the COMPETITION BASED QUOTIENT isn't clear enough)

What do people think of my proposed solution?

Maybe reconsider the name, but the general idea seems perfectly fine. It wouldn't be confusing for newcomers, and people who actually care enough about why run A obsoleted run B, they can find out.

ExplodingCabbage

2009-07-06 03:57:45 pm

Quote:

the use of AHK turbo scripts in a separate category

I think this is a really bad idea. Having seperate categories just for the use of turbo scripts is ridiculous - they wouldn't make anywhere near enough difference. Either ban them (my preferred solution, despite the fact that this requires some very careful rulemaking about what hardware is allowed and the result is likely to be imperfect) or allow them, don't make different categories for something that makes so little difference to the resulting run video.

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

As cabbage has pointed PC hardware rules are very hard to make and there currently aren't any. This why whenever I bring up things like turbo joysticks for PC people say they're banned by SDA, this is the fallacious premise everyone keeps using to try to counter my argument.

Equally, Spider-Waffle, you've been arguing that turbo scripts should be allowed because otherwise people will use hardware solutions instead, implicitly assuming the fallacious premise that turbo joysticks are allowed when in fact the matter just hasn't been considered yet. First remove the plank from your own eye, and all that.

In reply to the three quotes, yes I did want you to be more specific (and what I meant when I said that even the scripts you want to allow are banned on /quake is that bunnyhopping scripts are banned there, which I believe you want to allow?) What exactly do you think I haven't understood?

Quote:

1. No 2 second interval can exist in a run for which the majority of the time had scripted input other than repeated spamming of commands.
2. No scripts can be used which specifically adjust your aim to as to aide in triggering a game event such as shooting a hitbox, destroying an entity or using an entity.

These proposed rules, are, in my opinion, too arbitrary and too intricate, not to mention they are ambiguous and would create inconsistency throughout the run in what kind of scripts would be allowed. I think when the situation and context in which a script is used is a factor in whether the script is legal or not, the rules are far too complicated, and for both of these proposed rules that concern applies. For instance, suppose a player normally used a script to pull off some trick, and it has been performed via this script throughout the run, but at one point when he would normally use it he has already used a second of scripts beforehand. Then he would have to perform the trick manually to avoid violating rule 1, which would look bizarre after it has been scripted throughout the run. Similarly, consider your 180-degree-turn-and-shoot script from HL, which if I'm understanding rule 2 correctly would be allowed. Suppose further that at one point when you would normally use it to propel yourself, and enemy you need to destroy to progress is coincidentally positioned exactly behind you and is hit and killed by the shot. Have you violated rule 2 or not?

Edit - and of course, rule 1 is awful for another reason - you could easily break it by mistake.

No, as far as I'm concerned even these first two rules create a situation so confusing it will not do, and you haven't even created a whole ruleset yet.

Finally, I'm pretty confused about why you seem to be advocating having one category with no scripts, and a second category which has scripts but where so many scripts are disallowed that it ends up being almost the same as the first. This seems to defeat the point of even having two categories. Either allow ALL scripts in the scripted category (which I'm in favour of - these are still legitimate runs made without game modification or external tools, and while there is probably much truth in labelling them TASes, I don't see why this should exclude them from SDA), or else have no scripted category at all.

[quote]the use of AHK turbo scripts in a separate category[/quote]

I think this is a really bad idea. Having seperate categories just for the use of turbo scripts is ridiculous - they wouldn't make anywhere near enough difference. Either ban them (my preferred solution, despite the fact that this requires some very careful rulemaking about what hardware is allowed and the result is likely to be imperfect) or allow them, don't make different categories for something that makes so little difference to the resulting run video.

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]As cabbage has pointed PC hardware rules are very hard to make and there currently aren't any.  This why whenever I bring up things like turbo joysticks for PC people say they're banned by SDA, this is the fallacious premise everyone keeps using to try to counter my argument.[/quote]

Equally, Spider-Waffle, you've been arguing that turbo scripts should be allowed because otherwise people will use hardware solutions instead, implicitly assuming the fallacious premise that turbo joysticks [i]are[/i] allowed when in fact the matter just hasn't been considered yet. First remove the plank from your own eye, and all that.

In reply to the three quotes, yes I did want you to be more specific (and what I meant when I said that even the scripts you want to allow are banned on /quake is that bunnyhopping scripts are banned there, which I believe you want to allow?) What exactly do you think I haven't understood?

[quote]1.   No 2 second interval can exist in a run for which the majority of the time had scripted input other than repeated spamming of commands.
2.   No scripts can be used which specifically adjust your aim to as to aide in triggering a game event such as shooting a hitbox, destroying an entity or using an entity.[/quote]

These proposed rules, are, in my opinion, too arbitrary and too intricate, not to mention they are ambiguous and would create inconsistency throughout the run in what kind of scripts would be allowed. I think when the situation and context in which a script is used is a factor in whether the script is legal or not, the rules are far too complicated, and for both of these proposed rules that concern applies. For instance, suppose a player normally used a script to pull off some trick, and it has been performed via this script throughout the run, but at one point when he would normally use it he has already used a second of scripts beforehand. Then he would have to perform the trick manually to avoid violating rule 1, which would look bizarre after it has been scripted throughout the run. Similarly, consider your 180-degree-turn-and-shoot script from HL, which if I'm understanding rule 2 correctly would be allowed. Suppose further that at one point when you would normally use it to propel yourself, and enemy you need to destroy to progress is coincidentally positioned exactly behind you and is hit and killed by the shot. Have you violated rule 2 or not?

Edit - and of course, rule 1 is awful for another reason - you could easily break it by mistake.

No, as far as I'm concerned even these first two rules create a situation so confusing it will not do, and you haven't even created a whole ruleset yet.

Finally, I'm pretty confused about why you seem to be advocating having one category with no scripts, and a second category which has scripts but where so many scripts are disallowed that it ends up being almost the same as the first. This seems to defeat the point of even having two categories. Either allow ALL scripts in the scripted category (which I'm in favour of - these are still legitimate runs made without game modification or external tools, and while there is probably much truth in labelling them TASes, I don't see why this should exclude them from SDA), or else have no scripted category at all.

Lag.Com

2009-07-06 04:02:21 pm

sda loyalist

Quote:

2. No scripts can be used which specifically adjust your aim to as to aide in triggering a game event such as shooting a hitbox, destroying an entity or using an entity.

Crazy, crazy Spider.

I think the natural progression to make this rule less arbitrary is:
2. No scripts can be used which adjust your aim
2. No scripts can be used

DJGrenola

2009-07-06 04:14:42 pm

guffaw

2. No PC games can be run

Emptyeye

2009-07-06 04:21:28 pm

Talk to the Hand

Quote from DJGrenola:

2. No PC games can be run

*Checks his current SDA-listed output*

I'm okay with this. Wink

Sir VG

2009-07-06 05:38:59 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from DJGrenola:

2. No PC games can be run

Well, there goes my hope of seeing The Typing of the Dead run then. ^^;;

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

Spider-Waffle

Edit history:

Spider-Waffle: 2009-07-07 10:05:52 am

2009-07-06 06:05:08 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

I'm assuming turbo joysticks for PC aren't banned, as there is no rule on this, is this not a fair assumption. I had always assumed for something to be banned there had to be rule which banned it. Maybe these aren't fair assumption and I could have made a mistake in my reasoning. This is why I think it's fallacious to say they are banned.

In the example you gave for rule 1, the runner wouldn't use the second long script before hand. The point of this rule is to make it so that no scripts can take as long as 1 second to execute and not to allow rapid succession of scripts of almost a second long. This keeps it such that all scripts used take a very short amount of time to run and you can't have any 2 seconds which were heavily automated. This keeps it such that for any 2 second interval, the majority will be skilled human input.

Rule 2 I thought might be good because most people have a hard time with things that do precise aiming for you. I even avoiding using such scripts to blindly shoot crystals in my HL run as I asked what the community would think about it and most didn't like that idea. This was the only type of script I know of that seems to do more harm to a speedrun than good while not taking extended amounts of time to execute.

Your example for rule 2 would pass as the 180 aiming he used wasn't SPECIFICALLY to aid in triggering a game event. Rather it was specifically a 180 and in order for this to aide in triggering the game event he would have had to have aimed manually exactly 180 away from the enemy, so in this case the aiming done specifically to trigger the game event was done manually.

These rules might seem arbitrary but they both are intended to ban ONLY scripts which could strictly be detracting from the display of human skill while not banning any scripts that could aide in the display of human skill. I could see why rule 2 may be too arbitrary but rule 1 I think serves a very specific purpose which is easy to understand.

Any scripts not violating these two rules would be allowed, and ultimately think a committee of some sort would help a lot in decided if a script is okay or not and runners could run scripts by the committee before they even use them. I don't expect many runners would need to do this very often though.

No I don't think bunny hopping scripts such as the one dex made for bunny hopping down a straight, flat, unobstructed path, with no interferance should be allowed. Scripts which do XY-plane movement for the runner I could see why people would think don't have a place at SDA, I've always thought these scripts should be banned unless they're in a new TAS-type category which may or may not help SDA be more popular, it probably would make it more popular though. Scripts which spam jump don't do XY-plane movement for you, I would argue these are spamming scripts not movement scripts. Quake has no reason for such scripts because the game's jump mechanic already does this perfectly for them every time they're holding down jump and haven't jumped yet, if it didn't I guarantee you /quake would allow jump spamming scripts, not that it's trying to ban these anyway.

I'm assuming turbo joysticks for PC aren't banned, as there is no rule on this, is this not a fair assumption.  I had always assumed for something to be banned there had to be rule which banned it.  Maybe these aren't fair assumption and I could have made a mistake in my reasoning.  This is why I think it's fallacious to say they are banned.

In the example you gave for rule 1, the runner wouldn't use the second long script before hand.  The point of this rule is to make it so that no scripts can take as long as 1 second to execute and not to allow rapid succession of scripts of almost a second long.  This keeps it such that all scripts used take a very short amount of time to run and you can't have any 2 seconds which were heavily automated.  This keeps it such that for any 2 second interval, the majority will be skilled human input.

Rule 2 I thought might be good because most people have a hard time with things that do precise aiming for you.  I even avoiding using such scripts to blindly shoot crystals in my HL run as I asked what the community would think about it and most didn't like that idea.  This was the only type of script I know of that seems to do more harm to a speedrun than good while not taking extended amounts of time to execute.

Your example for rule 2 would pass as the 180 aiming he used wasn't SPECIFICALLY to aid in triggering a game event.  Rather it was specifically a 180 and in order for this to aide in triggering the game event he would have had to have aimed manually exactly 180 away from the enemy, so in this case the aiming done specifically to trigger the game event was done manually.

These rules might seem arbitrary but they both are intended to ban ONLY scripts which could strictly be detracting from the display of human skill while not banning any scripts that could aide in the display of human skill.  I could see why rule 2 may be too arbitrary but rule 1 I think serves a very specific purpose which is easy to understand.

Any scripts not violating these two rules would be allowed, and ultimately think a committee of some sort would help a lot in decided if a script is okay or not and runners could run scripts by the committee before they even use them.  I don't expect many runners would need to do this very often though.

No I don't think bunny hopping scripts such as the one dex made for bunny hopping down a straight, flat, unobstructed path, with no interferance should be allowed.  Scripts which do XY-plane movement for the runner I could see why people would think don't have a place at SDA, I've always thought these scripts should be banned unless they're in a new TAS-type category which may or may not help SDA be more popular, it probably would make it more popular though.  Scripts which spam jump don't do XY-plane movement for you, I would argue these are spamming scripts not movement scripts.  Quake has no reason for such scripts because the game's jump mechanic already does this perfectly for them every time they're holding down jump and haven't jumped yet, if it didn't I guarantee you /quake would allow jump spamming scripts, not that it's trying to ban these anyway.

LLCoolDave

2009-07-06 11:22:39 pm

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

The way I see it, the current runs SDA has hosted with scripts are among its most popular.

Have you ever considered that maybe the runs are popular because they are on some of the most popular PC Games of all time? Half-Life got over 50 GOTY Awards and over 9 million copies sold, Half-Life 2 has over 35 GOTY Awards and over 6.5 million copies sold, Portal got several GOTY Awards and was an internet pop-culture phenomenon. These are probably the three most played PC Games that have runs hosted on SDA, of COURSE they are going to be popular. It has absolutely nothing to do with the scripts or the play quality.

I also have to say that I really dislike the wording and intention of your rules. They feel arbitrary, forced, and worst yet, nobody really knows what they do and what they don't allow. As ExplodingCabbage pointed out, they also depend on situational circumstances. Not to mention that they are a total nightmare to enforce or check for. No matter the intention, in this form they should not be added to any rule list at all solely for the way they are worded/what they imply, without even regarding the content.

Quake Bunnyhopping also isn't a miracle half a second timeframe super easy mode as you imply it is. While the JUMP mechanics are loose enough to press jump before touching the ground, proper bunnyhopping (which you probably need to do to beat any of the non-obscure records) involves tapping forward while you touch the ground, but letting go of it in the air. Sure, if you mess up the timing the effect may not be as outstanding as in the Half-Life Series, but saying that anybody can properly bunnyhop in quake just by mashing the jump button is a bit... off, to say the least. Not to mention that most of the bunnyhopping occurs as part of the mouse movement in the air. It's also not always in your best interest to immediately jump again, depending on the layout of the level you have to adjust your jumping patterns, for instance to push a button on a wall or something. I personally feel the hazzle of triggering and untriggering a bunnyhopping script while playing would ultimately be pretty confusing and unintuitive. Why go through all that trouble if you can just, you know, do it yourself?

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]
The way I see it, the current runs SDA has hosted with scripts are among its most popular. 
[/quote]

Have you ever considered that maybe the runs are popular because they are on some of the most popular PC Games of all time? Half-Life got over 50 GOTY Awards and over 9 million copies sold, Half-Life 2 has over 35 GOTY Awards and over 6.5 million copies sold, Portal got several GOTY Awards and was an internet pop-culture phenomenon. These are probably the three most played PC Games that have runs hosted on SDA, of COURSE they are going to be popular. It has absolutely nothing to do with the scripts or the play quality.

I also have to say that I really dislike the wording and intention of your rules. They feel arbitrary, forced, and worst yet, nobody really knows what they do and what they don't allow. As ExplodingCabbage pointed out, they also depend on situational circumstances. Not to mention that they are a total nightmare to enforce or check for. No matter the intention, in this form they should not be added to any rule list at all solely for the way they are worded/what they imply, without even regarding the content.

Quake Bunnyhopping also isn't a miracle half a second timeframe super easy mode as you imply it is. While the JUMP mechanics are loose enough to press jump before touching the ground, proper bunnyhopping (which you probably need to do to beat any of the non-obscure records) involves tapping forward while you touch the ground, but letting go of it in the air. Sure, if you mess up the timing the effect may not be as outstanding as in the Half-Life Series, but saying that anybody can properly bunnyhop in quake just by mashing the jump button is a bit... off, to say the least. Not to mention that most of the bunnyhopping occurs as part of the mouse movement in the air. It's also not always in your best interest to immediately jump again, depending on the layout of the level you have to adjust your jumping patterns, for instance to push a button on a wall or something. I personally feel the hazzle of triggering and untriggering a bunnyhopping script while playing would ultimately be pretty confusing and unintuitive. Why go through all that trouble if you can just, you know, do it yourself?

Zealie

2009-07-07 01:18:42 am

Quote from DJGrenola:

2. No PC games can be run

Halfway through I realised that all these 'problematic' rules almost all existed because of PC runs.
So just shovel them to the quake corner or something. Tongue

Anyway, when looking at the games list, and going to half-life game, it says PC/PS2. (also Half-Life 2 and the PC/Xbox)

Now I was wondering, how much of that scripting that's happening in the PC run can be done on the PS2 version?
I really have no idea how the PS2 version works when it comes to console script making and such and if you then need to save it to your memory card or something?
Or is it just impossible all together?