Golden Sun (Sub 4 Hours????)

2013-07-13 01:16:40 am

Quote from wfp:

i'd be super curious what tas would be capable of. can probably get a sub 4 with that considering you could use a more aggressive route.

TAS would be incomparably faster due to being able to manipulate RNG / know what the RNG state is without needing to do a reset.

Plexa

Edit history:

Plexa: 2013-07-19 07:48:20 am

2013-07-19 07:43:29 am

I'm not sure a TAS would be *that* much faster. Often the resets are based around retreat warps/sanctum warps anyway which would still be in the TAS. You would also have to do some pretty extensive work on the RNG to work out the optimal patterns, like getting the triple siren fight/x3 golbin fights in such a way that you can kill those guys easily, get the exp+crystal powder, without having the luxury of attacks first.

Could it get sub 4? Yeah, I could see that happening (I'm expecting to get a 4:05 after Werster's 4:07 today) but it wouldn't be much lower than that. Assuming you worked out all of the resets you'd be looked at around 8 minutes saved. At lot of the fights we're doing are essentially optimal because of the existing RNG manipulation. As such, if it was lower than 3:55 I'd be surprised.

Plexa

2013-08-02 08:47:46 am

With my new Assassin blade strats allowing me to OHKO toadonpa, storm lizard and flash I was able to save a further 3 minutes over my 405 estimate (with my new time and WR being 4 02 29). While I expect there to be 60+ seconds of optimisation possible, it seems very unlikely that the remaining 60-90 seconds can be saved. Of course, I'm not going to give up but I'm at a loss for any theoretical improvements (without discovering new skips). The assassin blade was really the last theoretical improvement I could think of for the run Sad

oh well.

kirbymastah

2013-08-02 09:11:33 am

<(^_^)>

#Kreygasm I MISSED TEH URN ;_;

26pt2

2013-08-02 05:40:33 pm

Zelda

Congratulations Plexa! Can't wait for the sub-4 incoming.

Plexa

2013-08-02 06:38:09 pm

I dno. I'm trying to think of how you can save extra time and I'm coming up short. I'm thinking Kraken can be better optimised, the sleep strat I used looked slow so I think I can look into a scorch/stun strat which may lead to kraken using 0 attacks (the water blessing at the end takes forever zzz). Killer ape might be able to be better optimised as well but I don't think so, I guess planning for the creeper/bonefighter 5ac -> 3ac strat so I don't need to get an encounter in the elven shirt room would be wise. It's plausible we can OHKO squall, but OHKO'ing Hail is asking too much as we get attacks first vs the only mob before hail and that means there's no OHKO RN lying around. OHKO'ing the Lizard King, as I said in the run, would also be a nice timesaver if I could work out a pattern for that.

Otherwise I'm pretty much at a loss. I'm convinced FD strat is optimal, I guess I could look into a 9 turn kill but that would be getting just a little bit risky. Cutting a turn would save around 30 seconds, possibly up to a minute depending on the number of actions saved.

I'm open to ideas if anyone has any.

I dno. I'm trying to think of how you can save extra time and I'm coming up short. I'm thinking Kraken can be better optimised, the sleep strat I used looked slow so I think I can look into a scorch/stun strat which may lead to kraken using 0 attacks (the water blessing at the end takes forever zzz). Killer ape might be able to be better optimised as well but I don't think so, I guess planning for the creeper/bonefighter 5ac -> 3ac strat so I don't need to get an encounter in the elven shirt room would be wise. It's plausible we can OHKO squall, but OHKO'ing Hail is asking too much as we get attacks first vs the only mob before hail and that means there's no OHKO RN lying around. OHKO'ing the Lizard King, as I said in the run, would also be a nice timesaver if I could work out a pattern for that.

Otherwise I'm pretty much at a loss. I'm convinced FD strat is optimal, I guess I could look into a 9 turn kill but that would be getting just a little bit risky. Cutting a turn would save around 30 seconds, possibly up to a minute depending on the number of actions saved.

I'm open to ideas if anyone has any.

Michel

Edit history:

Michel: 2013-08-02 11:08:53 pm

2013-08-02 11:08:42 pm

I missed the run aswell!

Grats Plexa, can't wait for the sub-4 vod :D! (or stream if I can catch it)

Pavocado

Edit history:

Pavocado: 2013-08-18 10:56:56 pm

Pavocado: 2013-08-18 10:55:49 pm

Pavocado: 2013-08-18 10:54:23 pm

Pavocado: 2013-08-18 10:53:55 pm

2013-08-18 10:53:20 pm

I just watched your run, Plexa. Fantastic! There are two Retreat Glitch locations I know of that you did not use in your video, which these two I thought maybe would be slightly faster. Maybe not, and maybe you know of them already and have a reason to not use them. Still, if these locations may be useful to you, I thought that I would share them:

Video:

Content of the video:

First section shows skipping the first log room in Mogall Forest via the Retreat Glitch.
Second section shows skipping the Hydros Statue boss fight while still getting the Lift Gem via the Retreat Glitch.

Hope it helps!

Plexa

2013-08-19 08:39:52 am

Holy shit dude.

That Hydros Skip, I think, makes sub 4 viable.

I love you.

Pavocado

2013-08-19 03:48:51 pm

I am absolutely glad to help out. I hope the skip works in getting you sub-4.

theoblivinator

Edit history:

theoblivinator: 2014-06-22 03:52:09 pm

2014-06-22 03:48:58 pm

I believe this is the most current thread to bump. If not please redirect me to the current thread.

So since this game is now available on the Wii U Virtual Console for a great price, I've gotten back into this game a bit. I never finished learning the current 100% route, but I can go ahead and get that knocked out sometime and maybe do a few runs to get a good handle on the RNG manipulation as well as just general practice. The Wii U version I believe is the fastest console version to run on right now. I believe it is faster than playing on the GB Player with a GCN. It also has a handy restore point feature for those who practice on official hardware instead emulators (not that there is anything wrong with emulators).

In addition, Plexa came up with a new category, Any% No intro, which is basically just Any% but starts as soon as you leave Vale skipping the long intro.

So with all this is anyone here still interested in this game? Any hype for new strats or runs? Whats up everyone?

I believe this is the most current thread to bump. If not please redirect me to the current thread.

So since this game is now available on the Wii U Virtual Console for a great price, I've gotten back into this game a bit. I never finished learning the current 100% route, but I can go ahead and get that knocked out sometime and maybe do a few runs to get a good handle on the RNG manipulation as well as just general practice. The Wii U version I believe is the fastest console version to run on right now. I believe it is faster than playing on the GB Player with a GCN. It also has a handy restore point feature for those who practice on official hardware instead emulators (not that there is anything wrong with emulators).

In addition, Plexa came up with a new category, Any% No intro, which is basically just Any% but starts as soon as you leave Vale skipping the long intro.

So with all this is anyone here still interested in this game? Any hype for new strats or runs? Whats up everyone?

Plexa

2014-06-24 03:41:12 am

No Intro Any% isn't really a category, (if anything, its Race% lol) but since I'm not taking Any% seriously I'd rather run that that the actual category. If someone wants to take Any% seriously then thats fine, and No Into Any% gives them a good benchmark to beat (whereas the old Any% time was garbage)

There's no real new innovations since Pavocado found those skips. Bloodduster is running GS1 100% at ESA and he has some pretty sexy strats in it (which are marginally slower than the optimal route). There's some new strats in my No Intro Any% PB like not needing to reset after a chest and some greater control over the RNs that Move produces, as well as skipping 2-3 saves in tunnel ruins/venus 2. I'm currently working on GS2 which has some pretty neat new stuff. Can't wait to show that off!

Plexa

Edit history:

Plexa: 2014-08-11 07:34:18 pm

Plexa: 2014-08-11 07:33:47 pm

2014-08-11 07:32:50 pm

Just wanted to add Vallkyr's discovery of animation queuing to glitch Isaac's z-coordinate to the thread. This is largely copied from my pastebin, but I figure more eyes will see it here.

Infinite Ladder Glitch

What is the infinite ladder glitch?

Vallkyr discovered that when you jump onto a ladder/climbable surface activating a hotkeyd psynergy on the right frame will cause you to use the psynergy on the ladder. He quickly realised that this was the result of the game queuing up commands as the animation to jump onto the ladder was playing. He then was able to open a save menu after jumping onto a ladder, save the game, and weird things started happening. His initial findings can be found here: pastebin.com/5eb0bWkk

How does it work?

On the 13th frame holding up to jump onto a ladder you need to press Start (or psyneryg/menu etc) while holding up. This will queue the command to happen once you latch onto the ladder. If you Save/Reset on a ladder you can repeat this as many times as you like.

You can also do this climbing down a ladder, but it only works once and has no known use.

What does it do?

Let's assume that before you jump onto the ladder your Z coordinate is 0. After doing the glitch your Z coordinate will be something like 0.7. The game loads the collision map for Z=0 at this new height, meaning you can run around the Z=0 plane but with Z=0.7. Repeated application of the glitch increases your height, but the Z=0 collision map is the only collision map which loads. The collision maps for other heights load normally, so you're unable to go up/down stairs or interact with anything that changes your height.

Things in the collision map basically are walls and static background items which cannot be interacted with (such as rocks). Loading zones are also included in the collision map.

On each of these collision maps a bunch of objects get loaded; such as NPCs, djinn and objects which can be manipulated by psynergy in some way. Interestingly, upon doing the infinite ladder glitch objects are loaded at their ORIGINAL height. What this means is that if you are sufficiently high you can simply walk over objects that would normally be blocking your way on the original collision map.

As a hypothetical example, if there were a ladder in the main area of Lalivero (so that the available z plane could reach the boat room) you would be able to infinite ladder glitch over the guard that blocks the door, go through the door (as the loading zone is preserved on the collision map) and access the lemurian ship early.

You can also elevate yourself and access objects that are normally inaccessible. For instance, using the infinite ladder glitch in Spritz's room can allow you to elevate yourself to Z=2 from the Z=0 collision map. Since Spritz is an object at height Z=2, you can simply walk over and talk to Spritz without needing to ride the cart.

This sounds really exciting! Where is it useful.

Nowhere Sad

at present we have no idea about where we can make this useful. GS1 needs more ladders Sad

Notable things we've tried include:
- Ship skip; use ILG on the ladder going up the mast to get off the ship early. Fails because you repeatedly load the Z=0 collision map which means you'll never get OOB to access a door to skip kraken. Plus there's a limit to how high you go before you trigger the loading zone upon save/reset.
- Early Sap: use ILG near sap to get close to him and talk to him! Problem is that you can't talk to sap because he's on the Z=0 plane and the ladder is on the Z=2 plane, and you can only get higher. Second problem is that if you ring the bell, Sap goes to the Z=4 plane and using ILG to get to that height doesn't get close enough for you to interact with Sap.
- Tret skips: there's just no way to use this glitch in a useful manner for a myriad of reasons.
- Early Mercury: the ply door is part of the collision map until Mia is loaded into the room (it could be that it's still part of the collision map here as well)
- Alpine crossing skip: ILG on the vine to get over the rocks blocking your path, problem is that the rocks are part of the collision map

Okay, but maybe it's useful in Golden Sun 2! Lot's of ladders there!!

The glitch got patched in GS2. Basically, the 13th frame no longer accepts psynergy/menu commands to queue up after the animation has completed. There's still psynergy/menu queuing to some extent for other animations (such as being knocked off the edge by a flamethrower) but the ladder animation got patched Sad

camelot pls

Feel free to tweet me/vallkyr or post in this thread if you have any questions about the glitch!

Just wanted to add Vallkyr's discovery of animation queuing to glitch Isaac's z-coordinate to the thread. This is largely copied from my pastebin, but I figure more eyes will see it here.

[u][b]Infinite Ladder Glitch[/b][/u]

[b]What is the infinite ladder glitch?[/b]

Vallkyr discovered that when you jump onto a ladder/climbable surface activating a hotkeyd psynergy on the right frame will cause you to use the psynergy on the ladder. He quickly realised that this was the result of the game queuing up commands as the animation to jump onto the ladder was playing. He then was able to open a save menu after jumping onto a ladder, save the game, and weird things started happening. His initial findings can be found here: pastebin.com/5eb0bWkk

[b]How does it work?[/b]

On the 13th frame holding up to jump onto a ladder you need to press Start (or psyneryg/menu etc) while holding up. This will queue the command to happen once you latch onto the ladder. If you Save/Reset on a ladder you can repeat this as many times as you like.

You can also do this climbing down a ladder, but it only works once and has no known use.

[b]What does it do?[/b]

Let's assume that before you jump onto the ladder your Z coordinate is 0. After doing the glitch your Z coordinate will be something like 0.7. The game loads the collision map for Z=0 at this new height, meaning you can run around the Z=0 plane but with Z=0.7. Repeated application of the glitch increases your height, but the Z=0 collision map is the only collision map which loads. The collision maps for other heights load normally, so you're unable to go up/down stairs or interact with anything that changes your height.

Things in the collision map basically are walls and static background items which cannot be interacted with (such as rocks). Loading zones are also included in the collision map.

On each of these collision maps a bunch of objects get loaded; such as NPCs, djinn and objects which can be manipulated by psynergy in some way. Interestingly, upon doing the infinite ladder glitch objects are loaded at their ORIGINAL height. What this means is that if you are sufficiently high you can simply walk over objects that would normally be blocking your way on the original collision map.

As a hypothetical example, if there were a ladder in the main area of Lalivero (so that the available z plane could reach the boat room) you would be able to infinite ladder glitch over the guard that blocks the door, go through the door (as the loading zone is preserved on the collision map) and access the lemurian ship early.

You can also elevate yourself and access objects that are normally inaccessible. For instance, using the infinite ladder glitch in Spritz's room can allow you to elevate yourself to Z=2 from the Z=0 collision map. Since Spritz is an object at height Z=2, you can simply walk over and talk to Spritz without needing to ride the cart.

[b]This sounds really exciting! Where is it useful. [/b]

Nowhere :( at present we have no idea about where we can make this useful. GS1 needs more ladders :( Notable things we've tried include:
- Ship skip; use ILG on the ladder going up the mast to get off the ship early. Fails because you repeatedly load the Z=0 collision map which means you'll never get OOB to access a door to skip kraken. Plus there's a limit to how high you go before you trigger the loading zone upon save/reset. 
- Early Sap: use ILG near sap to get close to him and talk to him! Problem is that you can't talk to sap because he's on the Z=0 plane and the ladder is on the Z=2 plane, and you can only get higher. Second problem is that if you ring the bell, Sap goes to the Z=4 plane and using ILG to get to that height doesn't get close enough for you to interact with Sap.
- Tret skips: there's just no way to use this glitch in a useful manner for a myriad of reasons. 
- Early Mercury: the ply door is part of the collision map until Mia is loaded into the room (it could be that it's still part of the collision map here as well)
- Alpine crossing skip: ILG on the vine to get over the rocks blocking your path, problem is that the rocks are part of the collision map

[b]Okay, but maybe it's useful in Golden Sun 2! Lot's of ladders there!![/b]

The glitch got patched in GS2. Basically, the 13th frame no longer accepts psynergy/menu commands to queue up after the animation has completed. There's still psynergy/menu queuing to some extent for other animations (such as being knocked off the edge by a flamethrower) but the ladder animation got patched :( camelot pls

Feel free to tweet me/vallkyr or post in this thread if you have any questions about the glitch!

Plexa

2014-08-22 12:39:36 pm

By any chance, does anyone know whether the Wii U VC version runs at 60fps?