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pkGamerB
pkGamerB
Edit history:
pkGamerB: 2013-03-19 01:57:28 pm
2013-03-19 01:43:32 pm
Agent PK
I've got a few small updates on my progress.

I just finished a practice run (100% segmented) that came in at a time of 4:20 based on the in game timer (my previous best was 4:38)! This was my first attempt in which I used the Save Retreat glitch, and it cut massive chunks out of my final time. I also messed around with RNG manipulation where applicable. I don't fully understand the RNG mechanics yet, but I was able to recognize patterns when running the same segment over and over, and I'd do stuff like fumble around in the battle menus or use shortcut Psynergy to alter any unfavorable random encounters. I ran from all random encounters but the few Sirens I RNG'd Crystal Powders from, and my levels going into the final battle were 17/17/17/18.

Unfortunately, my route notes are just a bunch of incoherent mess that only makes sense to me right now, but if you guys are interested, I can at least post a list of some key checkpoints, and their times. Or if you have any other questions, I'd be glad to answer them.

Sub 4:20 segmented is definitely possible, especially if I make use of the Reveal + Retreat glitch in the Lamakan Desert than Plexa found the other day at his stream. I've been working on this practice run since like November, so I haven't tried to apply anything from the past two pages of this thread yet, which may or may not save me even more time. 4:15 would be pretty sexy, but we'll see if there's that much room for improvement left.
TheOthin
2013-03-19 05:50:36 pm
Reveal + Retreat? Intriguing. What exactly does it do?
Plexa
Plexa
Edit history:
Plexa: 2013-03-19 08:49:41 pm
2013-03-19 08:48:23 pm
Reveal+Retreat messes up Lamakan desert something terrible Tongue http://www.twitch.tv/tl_plexa/b/378333879 the important thing is that you can cut 20-30 seconds off a lamakan desert split by glitching to 0,0 (manticore actually lives at 0,0 on every lamakan desert map oddly enough).

4:20 segmented for 100% is pretty good, my best in game as an RTA is 4:26 Smiley that still has some big mistakes which I will eventually get around to fixing when werster makes attempts on my WR. I'm interested in your fusion dragon strat though, anything which can make the 20min battle shorter would be interesting.

I also broke the four hour barrier (in game timer) for any% today - it came in at 3:46 and 4:09ish real time. Only one major screw up at fusion dragon (which cost 5 mins or so) but all in all it was a solid run. Sub 4 real time is possible, but that would require one hell of a run. You can check that run out here: http://www.twitch.tv/tl_plexa/b/379769883
It uses two glitches that I haven't seen anyone use in a run before - my take on the hydros skip and the reveal+retreat lamakan desert glitch which pkGamer was talking about!
pkGamerB
2013-03-20 11:15:55 am
Agent PK
My Sat/Men and Fusion Dragon strats are pretty safe, but they're consistent. I'm not completely satisfied with them yet, but I can save you almost 10 turns from the fights in your 4:26 run. These fights suck because you have to go right into the second one without stopping, and the long cutscenes in between don't help.

Before I start, note that all of this comes after a hard reset on top of the lighthouse. All my Djinn and equipment are set before my last save (just in case doing it after resetting would otherwise affect the RNG).

Djinn, Equipment, etc:

* Numbers next to Djinn mean put them into standby in that order before last save. All others should be set.

Ivan Lv 17
- Fever (3), Corona, Scorch (4), Ember (1), Flash, Torch (2)
- Swift Sword, Circlet, Leather Armlet, Travel Robe

Isaac Lv 17
- Flint (1), Granite, Quartz (3), Vine (2), Sap (4), Bane (5), Forge
- Gaia Blade, Padded Gloves, Steel Armor

Garet Lv 17
- Fizz, Sleet (2), Mist (3), Spritz (1), Hail (4), Tonic (5), Dew (6)
- Righteous Mace, Padded Gloves, Steel Armor

Mia Lv 18
- Ground, Gust (1), Breeze, Zephyr (2), Smog (3), Squall (4), Luff
- Crystal Rod, Wooden Cap, Leather Gloves, Travel Robe

Strats:

---Saturos and Menardi---
Turn 1:
Mia unleashes Ground - Saturos
Menardi casts Fiery Blast - Isaac, Garet, Mia
Saturos is unable to move
Ivan summons Thor - Saturos (638 Saturos; 461 Menardi)
Isaac summons Judgement - Saturos (687; 391)
Garet summons Boreas - Menardi (442; 577)

Turn 2:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Menardi casts Flare Storm - Garet, Mia
Saturos uses Heat Flash - Garet
Mia summons Meteor - Saturos (305; 196)
Isaac unleashes Forge
Garet unleashes Fizz - Mia
(Djinn Reset: Gust - Mia, Spritz - Garet, Flint - Isaac)

Turn 3:
Flash is set to Ivan
Isaac unleashes Granite
Menardi casts Impact - Saturos
Saturos casts Inferno
Mia casts Prism - Menardi (36; 49)
Garet unleashes Spritz
(Reset: Ember - Ivan; Zephyr - Mia; Sleet - Garet; Vine - Isaac)

Turn 4:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Menardi uses Death Size - Mia
Saturos uses Heat Flash - Garet
Mia casts Prism - Menardi (36; 49)
Isaac unleashes Vine
Garet casts Cutting Edge - Menardi (119)
(Reset: Torch - Ivan; Smog - Mia; Mist - Garet; Quartz - Isaac)

Turn 5:
Flash is set to Ivan
Mia summons Boreas - Menardi (486; 640)
Menardi casts Flare Storm - Garet, Mia
Isaac summons Judgement - Menardi (631; 752)
END BATTLE


---Fusion Dragon---
Turn 1:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Mia casts Wish
Isaac unleashes Sap (113)
Fusion Dragon uses Dragon Driver
Garet unleashes Mist (62)
(Reset: Tonic - Garet; Bane - Isaac; Scorch - Ivan; Ground - Mia)

Turn 2:
Flash is set to Ivan
Mia casts Wish
Fusion Dragon uses Drain Fang (no effect)
Isaac unleashes Bane (124)
Fusion Dragon attacks - Ivan
Garet unleashes Hail (88)
(Reset: Dew - Garet; Granite - Isaac)

Turn 3:
Isaac unleashes Granite
Ivan unleashes Kite (Mia)
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Mia casts Wish
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Garet unleashes Sleet (74)
(Reset: Fizz - Garet; Vine - Isaac)

Turn 4: (Note: Ground has priority over Wish, so make sure to select Wish, THEN Ground for Mia)
Ivan unleashes Flash
Mia unleashes Ground
Fusion Dragon is unable to move
Mia casts Wish
Isaac summons Judgement (889)
Fusion Dragon uses Drain Fang - Ivan
Garet unleashes Fizz - Whomever needs it most
(Reset: Spritz - Garet)

Turn 5:
Flash is set to Ivan
Fusion Dragon casts Break
Mia casts Wish
Isaac unleashes Flint (91)
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Garet unleashes Spritz
(Reset: Sap - Isaac; Ground - Mia)

Turn 6:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Mia summons Boreas (972)
Isaac unleashes Sap (110)
Fusion Dragon uses Dragon Driver
Garet unleashes Tonic
(Reset: Bane - Isaac)

Turn 7:
Mia unleashes Ground
Flash is set to Ivan
Fusion Dragon is unable to move
Isaac unleashes Bane (123)
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Garet casts Cutting Edge (64)
(Reset: Mist - Garet; Granite - Isaac)

Turn 8:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Fusion Dragon uses Severe Blow - Ivan
Mia casts Wish
Isaac unleashes Vine
Fusion Dragon attacks - Isaac
Garet unleashes Mist (58)
(Reset: Hail - Garet)

Turn 9:
Mia summons Neptune (934)
Ivan summons Atalanta (373)
Isaac summons Judgement (867)
Fusion Dragon uses Dragon Driver
Garet summons Kirin (233)
END BATTLE

*Turn 10 (if FD used Break during or after turn 6 and Mia and Ivan's HP is high enough to take an Outer Space in turn 9):
Ivan casts Wind Slash (47)
Mia casts Prism (47)
Others defend, FD dies before attacking
END BATTLE


One note about the Fusion Dragon fight, if it uses Break at any time after Mia used Boreas in turn 6, it will not die on turn 9. If Mia and Ivan's HP is too low to take a possible Outer Space, see alt. turn 9 and 10:


Alt. turn 9:

Flash is set to Ivan
Isaac unleashes Granite
Mia casts Wish
Fusion Dragon uses Drain Fang
Garet unleashes Hail (86)
Fusion Dragon uses Severe Blow
(Sleet resets)

Alt Turn 10:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Mia summons Boreas (1377)
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Isaac summons Judgement (847)
END BATTLE


So 14 turns total, 15 if you're unlucky. I'm not really sure what affects the RNG for these two fights, but sometimes the enemy actions will vary slightly. As long as Fusion Dragon can't kill Isaac or Garet through Flash's protection on turn 1 (i.e. they have under 15 HP left from the previous fight), it works.

Side note, I redid the final fight on my 4:20 run because it was a minute slower than any of my other runs and knocked a minute off it, so my best time is now 4:19.
Plexa
Plexa
Edit history:
Plexa: 2013-03-20 12:11:01 pm
Plexa: 2013-03-20 12:06:49 pm
Plexa: 2013-03-20 11:42:20 am
Plexa: 2013-03-20 11:27:17 am
2013-03-20 11:25:38 am
Okay so thats the same strat you posted earlier. I don't think the fusion dragon attacks are consistent unless your stats are consistent, so in a SS/RTA we don't have the same level of predictability. For 100% my strats are very similar, I spend a few extra turns on Saturos because its slightly quicker to set up on Saturos than FD. That way I can use Boreas/Thor quicker - normally it will take me somewhere around 16-20 turns depending on how badly I get trolled during the fight but I guess that's the price you pay for doing RTA Smiley it's interesting that you skip the dragon scales though.

I think I'll give your strat a try on a test file and see if its reliable enough for RTA

EDIT: strat seems solid :), I guess the hard reset before S&M is worth it.
TheOthin
TheOthin
Edit history:
TheOthin: 2013-03-20 01:59:53 pm
2013-03-20 01:59:25 pm
Now that is sexy. And while it looks like Lamakan Desert has reason to be particularly messy, the effects don't look like they have any reason to be limited to there. I'll have to do some poking around with it in both games.
Plexa
2013-03-20 02:09:35 pm
Actually the only other place in GS1 where you can kind of get the same effect is in Suhalla desert - and the effect is that Flash's footprints remain visible after you leave reveal. The glitch is useful in lamakan desert for two reasons that make lamakan unique:
- Manticore lives at 0,0: no other dungeon in GS1 has this property as far as I'm aware
- There is a particular sinkhole which overlaps the edge of the cliff when glitched, and transports you to 0,0

Before discovering the sinkhole I found another way glitch to the end of Lamakan - which I was illustrating right at the start of the lamakan glitch video. I think the sinkhole method is quicker but then again I should time it properly
TheOthin
2013-03-20 02:13:13 pm
Are you sure that's all there is? I notice you manage to make a hole in one of the tunnel walls at one point and walk right out of bounds; it's not useful there, but that's the sort of thing I'm trying to figure out for other areas.
pkGamerB
pkGamerB
Edit history:
pkGamerB: 2013-03-20 03:08:02 pm
pkGamerB: 2013-03-20 02:51:14 pm
2013-03-20 02:23:14 pm
Agent PK
Have you tried using it in other places that have Reveal-able objects, like Vale Cave, Crossbone Isle, and others like them? I've got a file near the first two areas if you haven't. (Edit: didn't find anything useful in Vale Cave, Vault Cave, Crossbone, or Lunpa Fortress)

Speaking of Crossbone Isle, I'm curious as to how you tackle that section (haven't had a chance to sit and watch your whole run yet). I usually just muscle through the whole thing in one take since there are no randoms, but I wonder if there's a better way, or any useful glitches you've come across.

Edit: Something else I just thought of, I wonder if the Retreat glitch affects any other Psynergy spells like Cloak or Avoid.
Plexa
Plexa
Edit history:
Plexa: 2013-03-20 06:01:27 pm
Plexa: 2013-03-20 05:59:43 pm
Plexa: 2013-03-20 05:59:40 pm
Plexa: 2013-03-20 05:59:39 pm
Plexa: 2013-03-20 04:53:40 pm
2013-03-20 04:48:21 pm
You guys have had the same thought process as Arkhanno upon learning the glitch. Alas, the only psynergy that interacts with retreat is reveal. Reveal is special, other psynergies interact with objects but reveal interacts with the map itself. By retreating in reveal mode you can confuse the game into loading the objects from the room you are in into the first map, but then still be in the same room. idk. its weird and difficult to explain Cheesy one implication of how reveal is works is that in Venus 1 the devs forgot to include encounters in the 'revealed' map so you can walk through the dungeon in reveal mode and not get a fight.

It's the same principle behind this glitch from TLA: http://www.twitch.tv/tl_plexa/b/367349941?t=51m40s

But yeah, I've tested anywhere after lamakan for possible uses and yielded nothing. I haven't tested it in GS2 - but I strongly suspect that it will be usable in Gaia Rock. This is because I've been able to replicate this behavior there previously, just never to the extent at lamakan. i.e. you can use reveal+retreat at the gaia rock summit and the dancing idol will remain visible after leaving the reveal radius. Unfortunately you cannot pick up the idol (the game instead accesses a garbage conversation if I recall correctly). I tried this in a few places near the various altars before writing this off as a strange glitch but not speedrun useful. Lamakan desert has since made me rethink that. So yeah, Gaia rock needs to be tested for sure and there are perhaps other places as well in GS2.

Cloak is a special psynergy though, it is one of the few psynergies used by an 'NPC' and thus contributes no random number when used in a town.

Crossbone isle is glitchless as far as I know. It's just a matter of optimising each of the fights and completing puzzles as quicker as possible.

It's probably worth pointing out that there is still some unexplained questions that are important to be understood in GS1.

- There are at least two doors across GS1/TLA which disappear if you use a soft reset instead of a hard reset. One of these is in sol sanctum and the other is this one:
- How the ARN actually works in picking attacks. This is important for S&M because I have a 70% consistent 13 turn kill that I devised (inspired by your setup pk) but I need to be able to control their attacks. I have a feeling its got to do with the number of menus you enter/exit on each turn.
pkGamerB
2013-03-21 10:50:55 am
Agent PK
Darn, too bad there aren't any other uses for that glitch. Oh well. I didn't know that about Venus 1 though, so that's kind of helpful.

That's what I thought about Crossbone Isle, but it's good to get confirmation. I guess that's for the best, since it's my favorite section of the game to run. Encounter free, and purely skill based. Tongue

My knowledge on the ARN is pretty limited. I know why it works, but I'm not entirely sure of the exact effects it has. In my recent run, I mainly managed to make use of it through trial and error selecting and deselecting various numbers of attacks until I was able to run on the first or second try. Do you know whether doing the same with multi target spells has a different effect than single target attacks here like it does with the BRN? I haven't tested it yet myself.

13 turn S/M strat that's 70% consistent (that's both fights, correct)? Nice! What do you do differently?
Plexa
Plexa
Edit history:
Plexa: 2013-03-26 01:43:19 am
2013-03-26 01:40:01 am
Oh damn I had two T2's in my notes Cheesy I guess it's 14 turns total haha. I'll post it here anyway.

Djinn setup is pretty easy. Isaac all Venus except for Kite and Zephyr, Garet all Mercury, Ivan all Mars and Mia all Jupiter except Ground/Granite.

S&M: (isaac/garet/ivan/mia)
T1: Judgement (S)/Boreas (M)/Thor (S)/Ground (S)
T2: Cybele (S)/Fizz (mia)/Meteor (M)/Granite
T3: Vine/Spritz/Flash/Prism (M)
T4: Venus (M)/Boreas (S)/Flash (Set)/DEFEND

T1: Zephyr/Sleet/Flash/Wish
T2: Flint/Mist/Flash (set)/Wish
T3: Kite (mia)/Hail/Flash/Wish
T4: Bane/Tonic/Flash/Wish+Granite
T5: Judgement/Boreas/Forge/Ground
T6: Sap/Spritz/Flash/Luff
T7: Flint/Sleet/Flash (set)/Granite
T8: Vine/Mist/Flash/Breeze
T9: Judgement/Fizz (mia)/Flash (set)/Ground
T10: Thor/Boreas/Flash/Anything

I think its plausible to get this down to 13-12 turns once the ARN behavior is understood.

EDIT: I also did some tests in GS2 with Retreat+Reveal. I was mistaken about Gaia rock, Gaia rock has interesting Chest-Retreat behavior and nothing to do with reveal. I tried retreat+reveal in a few places before giving up as I didn't see any effect in locations that would be considered prime candidates for something to happen. Rather disappointed about this. I did however find a useless glitch in Magma Rock. Since this is a GS1 thread I'll just sketch the details - you can use burst on the pillars from below the heads, this is well known. However if you use burst in such a way that the explosion hitbox doesn't touch the head the game freezes for about 10seconds, the camera moves to a random location and sometimes lava with rise. No use for that though Smiley
pkGamerB
2013-03-26 03:02:32 pm
Agent PK
I was messing around the other day and managed to beat them in 13 turns (4 for S/M, 9 for FD), but since I got interrupted, I saved state mid FD battle rather than taking precise notes all the way through like I usually do, and then forgot what turn I saved state on when I came back the next day, haha. Haven't had a chance to try and recreate it yet. That strat had the Mercury Djinn split up between Isaac and Garet for faster Boreas summons, Ivan's job was to use Flash as much as possible, and Mia was the healer, using Ground whenever possible. I'll try and see if I can figure out exactly what I did on the last few turns sometime over the next couple of days. I'll give your strat a try as well.

12 turns on these fights would be great, since it'd probably shave off a good minute or more.
Plexa
Plexa
Edit history:
Plexa: 2013-03-27 03:56:54 am
2013-03-27 02:54:04 am
Ultimately I think either we'll have to have greater control over the ARN or just yolo it. I would hate for us to not get consistent ARN prediction and have 5~ hour RTA/SS runs need to use a stupidly risky quick kill strat to be WR competitive heh. Oh well, after I'm done optimising DD Any% and GS2 Any% or someone starts running the game again I'll take another look into the ARN.
BaalNocturno
2013-04-23 02:09:31 pm
There is no light to save you
So i watched Plexas run yesterday and got e few things explained (since i'm new to running GS). I'm still practicing and it is really hard since i dont do the RNG stuff but i use S&Q for retreat warping. Now I'm right before the Djinn in Mercury Lighthouse and have a ingame time of 1:21. So my questions is: Is this time good for non RNG using?

Attachment:
gs try.jpg
Plexa
Plexa
Edit history:
Plexa: 2013-04-25 11:14:05 pm
Plexa: 2013-04-23 06:15:19 pm
2013-04-23 06:13:41 pm
Haha PkGamer my 100% RTA WR attempt yesterday died, but I finished it up this morning. The in game timer was 4:20 Tongue I guess the segmented record is now jointly held by us?
http://www.twitch.tv/tl_plexa/b/394864131

EDIT: 4:19 on stream today. I think with a good RTA run I could get 4:15, I'd be happy with anything sub 4:20 realistically though.
pkGamerB
2013-04-26 12:56:35 pm
Agent PK
Nice! 4:19 is my current best as well, as I mentioned in an earlier post, so we share the record as far as I know. Cheesy Was your 4:19 run a new RTA attempt, or did you redo the final boss from your 4:20 file?

I haven't had a chance to mess around with my 13 turn FD strat recently, but I'll try to get to it soon. Assuming it works out, between that and the Lamakan glitch, my next practice attempt will shoot for no higher than 4:17, and like you, I think 4:15 would be a great number to hit eventually.
Plexa
2013-04-30 10:45:31 pm
The 4:19 was from a save file which eventually died at fusion dragon, but I had saved in the wrong slot in altin in purpose (I thought I mucked up or something and didn't want to not be able continue the run).

In anycase, today I hit 4:17 in game time (4:37:49 + 45 hard resets real time): http://www.twitch.tv/tl_plexa/c/2227610
4:15 looks very very achievable.
Plexa
2013-05-15 10:15:11 pm
Finally got a (major) error free run. Most of the time lost is due to RNG [and a small amount to bad execution]. Time was 4:30:51 with in game timer as 4:12 Smiley (yay sub 4:15 hype). Run here: http://www.twitch.tv/tl_plexa/b/403982675?t=23m35s
Plexa
2013-05-27 06:13:52 pm
Werster crushed my record during his 24h marathon Smiley or well, should have crushed it but died to FD. His in game timer was 3:56 (real time was 4:25ish due to the death) -- thats absolutely insane.
Plexa
2013-05-28 09:11:49 pm
So I'm hard at work optimising my run now (damn werster set the bar high!). Worked out some new stuff; thought I'd tease a small bit;

The rest will have to wait until I'm done rerouting ^^
Manocheese
2013-05-29 01:03:39 pm
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
That Tret is always hrooming about something. He's all bark and no bite.
Plexa
Plexa
Edit history:
Plexa: 2013-07-10 01:17:05 pm
2013-07-10 01:15:50 pm
Got 4:10:12 yesterday, with 3:54 in game timer. Khyron reckons there's about 2 minutes worth of mistakes that can be fixed. Thus, it's fairly safe to say that, without discovering more glitches, GS 100% cannot be done in under 4 hours real time! (But can be in terms of game time Smiley )
kirbymastah
2013-07-11 07:10:49 am
<(^_^)>
Nice job! I only caught the very end of your run Sad
wfp
2013-07-13 12:39:18 am
nice run.  definitely can't see that route equating to sub-4.  had no idea you could rng manipulate the number of steps between encounters, i only knew you could manipulate battle sequences, encounter parties, and level ups/drops (and yes it's definitely based on agility, thought that had been known for years).

i'd be super curious what tas would be capable of.  can probably get a sub 4 with that considering you could use a more aggressive route.