Golden Sun (Sub 4 Hours????)

2011-09-02 03:49:49 pm

...How'd I miss this?

Tried the first door to the final room myself on the cartridge. My first time, I was running, and didn't reach it. Tried again and walked instead and it worked! I believe we can mark this door confirmed, as well as the resulting implication of skipping virtually all of Sol Sanctum. Great find, kirkq!

If anyone's still reading this, anyway... Well, I just started up another file to test this stuff on TLA and hopefully work towards a speedrun. I'll make notes of my progress and anything else I find.

Fionordequester

2011-11-04 04:19:50 am

Hey guys, just some guy who has an odd interest in this game despite being a game with very obvious, glaring flaws, I don't plan on doing a run of this game myself, but I've tested out several things, even going as far as to slow the game down to 6% to test various things, and I've made these discoveries...

1) Running from battles is almost always better than staying and fighting, unless it's one enemy you can defeat with physical attacks. Most battles take a Djinn Summon + An AoE Psynergy Attack to take out, costing around 700 frames, plus there's the victory message that plays after winning a battle. Running, by contrast, can take anywhere from 200 frames if you manage to run in the first round, to 600 frames if you only manage to run on the third turn (and if it takes more than that...dunno what to tell you, but I don't think getting that unlucky is common).

2) Saving and hard resetting in order to manipulate stuff like drops and enemy attacks also costs around 700 frames including the time it takes to save a file all the way until the time you load it up again. It's main use is to get stuff like Oil Drops and Crystal Powders, as well as to insure that you have a long chain of random encounters until whatever point in time the RNG gets rerolled again. Because running from random battles takes an average of 400 frames per battles, you won't want to use hard resetting as a way to ensure running from random encounters unless you can guarantee that you can run from four or more battles. This is usually only possible in dungeons, as the World Map in this game isn't exactly big.

3) I've found that hard resetting only works until you're forced to use Psynergy of any sort. Through testing, I've found that once you use stuff like "Move" and all that, the encounters you face become random, although I do notice that I get certain patterns of enemies from there. Perhaps there are different paths that the game randomly decides on after you use Psynergy?

4) Small detail here, whenever you push a pillar and can't push it anymore in the direction you were pushing it, but still have to push it in another direction from there, it's around 30 frames faster to walk around and push it instead of using "Move", so fortunately the RNG rolling I mentioned won't be an issue in early dungeons like Gohma's Cave.

5) Finally, although there are FAQ's on Gamefaqs that says how many RN's each move burns, there's no convenient documentation I can find that shows which specific action burns which amount of RN's, so I've decided to post a more complete list...

Player Physical Attack- 4 RN's
Defend- 0 RN's
Attack Items, Psynergy spells, and Djinn Summons- 2 RN's per target
Healing Items, Psynergy spells, and Restorative Djinn-2 RN's per target
Djinn and Psynergy Status Buffs and Debuffs- 1 RN per target
Monster Dies- 1 RN
Djinn Attacks- 2 RN's (3 RN's if the target is weak to the element of that Djinn)
Status Recovery Psynergy- 0 RN's if used on someone without the ailment, 1 RN if used on someone with it
Tonic Djinn, and Revival Djinn, Psynergy, and Items- 0 RN's

Hey guys, just some guy who has an odd interest in this game despite being a game with very obvious, glaring flaws, I don't plan on doing a run of this game myself, but I've tested out several things, even going as far as to slow the game down to 6% to test various things, and I've made these discoveries...

1) Running from battles is almost always better than staying and fighting, unless it's one enemy you can defeat with physical attacks.  Most battles take a Djinn Summon + An AoE Psynergy Attack to take out, costing around 700 frames, plus there's the victory message that plays after winning a battle.  Running, by contrast, can take anywhere from 200 frames if you manage to run in the first round, to 600 frames if you only manage to run on the third turn (and if it takes more than that...dunno what to tell you, but I don't think getting that unlucky is common).

2) Saving and hard resetting in order to manipulate stuff like drops and enemy attacks also costs around 700 frames including the time it takes to save a file all the way until the time you load it up again.  It's main use is to get stuff like Oil Drops and Crystal Powders, as well as to insure that you have a long chain of random encounters until whatever point in time the RNG gets rerolled again.  Because running from random battles takes an average of 400 frames per battles, you won't want to use hard resetting as a way to ensure running from random encounters unless you can guarantee that you can run from four or more battles.  This is usually only possible in dungeons, as the World Map in this game isn't exactly big.

3) I've found that hard resetting only works until you're forced to use Psynergy of any sort.  Through testing, I've found that once you use stuff like "Move" and all that, the encounters you face become random, although I do notice that I get certain patterns of enemies from there.  Perhaps there are different paths that the game randomly decides on after you use Psynergy?

4) Small detail here, whenever you push a pillar and can't push it anymore in the direction you were pushing it, but still have to push it in another direction from there, it's around 30 frames faster to walk around and push it instead of using "Move", so fortunately the RNG rolling I mentioned won't be an issue in early dungeons like Gohma's Cave.

5) Finally, although there are FAQ's on Gamefaqs that says how many RN's each move burns, there's no convenient documentation I can find that shows which specific action burns which amount of RN's, so I've decided to post a more complete list...

Player Physical Attack-                                              4 RN's
Defend-                                                                   0 RN's
Attack Items, Psynergy spells, and Djinn Summons-   2 RN's per target
Healing Items, Psynergy spells, and Restorative Djinn-2 RN's per target
Djinn and Psynergy Status Buffs and Debuffs-             1 RN per target
Monster Dies-                                                          1 RN
Djinn Attacks-                                                          2 RN's (3 RN's if the target is weak to the element of that Djinn)
Status Recovery Psynergy-                                        0 RN's if used on someone without the ailment, 1 RN if used on someone with it
Tonic Djinn, and Revival Djinn, Psynergy, and Items-  0 RN's

Fionordeguester

2011-11-04 04:31:14 am

Oh yeah, also, Gust burns 1 RN no matter what if it hits once, and burns 2 RN's if it hits twice (3 RN's if the second hit lands on a target weak to Gust).

6) Protip also, you can manipulate Oil Drops in Sol Sanctum by hard resetting in the Sol and Luna room, and getting into a fight with two Vermin, an Amaze, and a Wild Mushroom, all lined from left to right in that order. Attack the Wild Mushroom with Isaac, Flare ONLY the two Vermin with either Jenna or Garet, then defend with whoever doesn't use Flare. After that, have Isaac Defend, and have both Jenna and Garet use Flare, centering the big arrow on the Amaze. Viola, Oil Drop. Technically, you can manipulate a second Oil Drop in the battle after this if you don't activate the cutscene, but it isn't worth it. The first Oil Drop significantly shortens the 2x Thief and Bandit fight, but the second Oil Drop isn't worth the time it takes to get it.

7) The Avoid psynergy doesn't seem to work if your levels aren't high enough, so don't rely too much on it. The only time I've had it work effectively was enroute from Mercury Lighthouse to Tret. Speaking of Mercury Light House, I'm not sure how many Crystal Powders you can manipulate on the way to Saturos, but you'll want at least one probably.

8) Whatever you do, be sure to manipulate an Oil Drop before getting the Djinn in Mercury Lighthouse if you plan on getting him. That Oil Drop ensures that you'll beat the Djinn before it can run on a hard reset.

9) If a run is done, will the runner please do it glitchless? I'm not really fond of the idea of skipping large chunks of the game the way you guys are talking about....

Oh yeah, also, Gust burns 1 RN no matter what if it hits once, and burns 2 RN's if it hits twice (3 RN's if the second hit lands on a target weak to Gust).

6) Protip also, you can manipulate Oil Drops in Sol Sanctum by hard resetting in the Sol and Luna room, and getting into a fight with two Vermin, an Amaze, and a Wild Mushroom, all lined from left to right in that order.  Attack the Wild Mushroom with Isaac, Flare ONLY the two Vermin with either Jenna or Garet, then defend with whoever doesn't use Flare.  After that, have Isaac Defend, and have both Jenna and Garet use Flare, centering the big arrow on the Amaze.  Viola, Oil Drop.  Technically, you can manipulate a second Oil Drop in the battle after this if you don't activate the cutscene, but it isn't worth it.  The first Oil Drop significantly shortens the 2x Thief and Bandit fight, but the second Oil Drop isn't worth the time it takes to get it.

7) The Avoid psynergy doesn't seem to work if your levels aren't high enough, so don't rely too much on it.  The only time I've had it work effectively was enroute from Mercury Lighthouse to Tret.  Speaking of Mercury Light House, I'm not sure how many Crystal Powders you can manipulate on the way to Saturos, but you'll want at least one probably.

8) Whatever you do, be sure to manipulate an Oil Drop before getting the Djinn in Mercury Lighthouse if you plan on getting him.  That Oil Drop ensures that you'll beat the Djinn before it can run on a hard reset.

9) If a run is done, will the runner please do it glitchless?  I'm not really fond of the idea of skipping large chunks of the game the way you guys are talking about....

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-11-04 04:58:01 am

2011-11-04 04:57:05 am

Good finds, and I'm glad to see someone else still interested in this. (Although I still prefer to focus on TLA.)

We haven't found anything to skip large portions of either game, just pieces of dungeons. Early Gondowan skips part of Yampi Desert, but you still have to do the stuff with Briggs when you go to Alhafra later. I don't think anything like skipping directly to Venus Lighthouse will actually be found, and if it were, it would likely be classified as a large skip and excluded from normal runs. Any runs that get made likely will use any glitches that are available; I know I intend to in the TLA run I've been testing stuff in preparation for.

Steve50013

Edit history:

Steve50013: 2012-10-29 08:58:32 pm

Steve50013: 2012-10-29 08:13:27 pm

2012-10-29 08:12:37 pm

Hello I am currently working on getting a record for Golden Sun on the site. I believe that you can get the time down to under 6 hours. With lots of planning and continues practice I feel that I can do this. I am going to attempt setting WR's on stream in the next two weeks.

My Runs (using in game timer)

First Practice run -- 9 hours 6 min (Not terrible. First time playing the game in a few years couldn't remember what to do at certain points I feel that I wasted at least 2 1/2 hours due to bad memory).

My strat is to have 4 Djinn for each character taking the easier/faster ones to get. Granite and Flash to defeat the dragon at the end of the game easily. (Since you won't be as leveled if you didn't skip parts of the game).

Right now I'm in the planning phase:

These are my current times and notes.

-- The beginning takes me about 45min to get the flint. Which isn't terrible but I think I can knock of 5 min still. This is with skipping all fights.

-- From Flint until Ivan joins the party permanently I got at about 14 min. Also not bad it all depends on the fight with the thieves I've had good and bad fights. It depends on how much they feel like healing. I also get the water of life from the mayor to sell for good early money. Before departing I get the Jupiter Djinn that's in the town.

-- From here I rush through the cave to get to bilbin getting the Mars Djinn along the way. At Bilbin I buy as much armor as I can to help with Merc light house. I rush to Imil and get the cut scenes for Mia over as fast of possible. I also stay the the Inn to heal get the next fire Djinn.

-- In Merc light house I have to make sure I hit lvl 10 in order to beat Saturos easily. I usually beat him with little to no problem. I don't always go for the Merc Djinn though. Practice runs have ended when it downed Ivan.

-- Once defeated I get the water I run to Kolima Forest and rush through since I am over leveled. I pick up the Jupiter Djinn and defeat trent with minimal effort. I use the water and then retreat out of the forest.

-- Next I stop in at Kolima and get Granite who is a must for the end game. Next I run to Fuchin Temple and do the trial in less than a minuet as well as getting the Merc Djinn.

-- Next I rush through Mogall Wood the route goes as follows -> Down -> right -> down -> left -> down -> down -> right. Also picking up the Venus Djinn while there.

I will add the rest in a bit gotta get ready for work.

Hello I am currently working on getting a record for Golden Sun on the site. I believe that you can get the time down to under 6 hours. With lots of planning and continues practice I feel that I can do this. I am going to attempt setting WR's on stream in the next two weeks.

My Runs (using in game timer)

First Practice run -- 9 hours 6 min (Not terrible. First time playing the game in a few years couldn't remember what to do at certain points I feel that I wasted at least 2 1/2 hours due to bad memory).

My strat is to have 4 Djinn for each character taking the easier/faster ones to get. Granite and Flash to defeat the dragon at the end of the game easily. (Since you won't be as leveled if you didn't skip parts of the game).

Right now I'm in the planning phase:

These are my current times and notes.

--  The beginning takes me about 45min to get the flint. Which isn't terrible but I think I can knock of 5 min still. This is with skipping all fights.

--  From Flint until Ivan joins the party permanently I got at about 14 min. Also not bad it all depends on the fight with the thieves I've had good and bad fights. It depends on how much they feel like healing. I also get the water of life from the mayor to sell for good early money. Before departing I get the Jupiter Djinn that's in the town.

--  From here I rush through the cave to get to bilbin getting the Mars Djinn along the way. At Bilbin I buy as much armor as I can to help with Merc light house. I rush to Imil and get the cut scenes for Mia over as fast of possible. I also stay the the Inn to heal get the next fire Djinn.

--  In Merc light house I have to make sure I hit lvl 10 in order to beat Saturos easily. I usually beat him with little to no problem. I don't always go for the Merc Djinn though. Practice runs have ended when it downed Ivan.

--  Once defeated I get the water I run to Kolima Forest and rush through since I am over leveled. I pick up the Jupiter Djinn and defeat trent with minimal effort. I use the water and then retreat out of the forest.

--  Next I stop in at Kolima and get Granite who is a must for the end game. Next I run to Fuchin Temple and do the trial in less than a minuet as well as getting the Merc Djinn.

--  Next I rush through Mogall Wood the route goes as follows -> Down -> right -> down -> left -> down -> down -> right. Also picking up the Venus Djinn while there.

[b]I will add the rest in a bit gotta get ready for work.[/b]

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2012-10-30 12:13:44 am

VorpalEdge: 2012-10-30 12:13:12 am

2012-10-30 12:12:17 am

welcome to the machine

hi, and welcome to the forums.

We actually have fairly extensive discussion about golden sun already. In the future, you should search the forums and look for existing threads and info. There have been major glitches discovered that you want to look into, and I believe people were looking at a time of less than four hours for a segmented run. If you were wondering, the reason we don't already have a run is because the luck manipulation is rather... extensive, and the glitches aren't well understood yet.

but hey, there's always single-segment (which may or may not have less luck manipulation) without major skips.

I took the liberty of merging your thread into the latest one, but don't worry, it's not a big deal. good luck!

Tiberius

2012-10-30 08:20:40 am

Make it so.

Echoing Vorpal's welcome and offering any and all support I can, I'd love to see a GS run on the site. If you need any help testing out strats/glitches or whatever, feel free to hit me up.

pkGamerB

2012-10-30 12:24:18 pm

Agent PK

It's funny this thread should be bumped now of all times, when I've been lurking it for the past week or so. I haven't forgotten about my 100% run, I just kind of needed a break from it after the discovery of the save retreat glitch meant I'd have to nearly rework my route from scratch. Recently though, I've been trying to find out more about how the glitch works, and messing around with Kirkq's lua script to find new places I could make use of it. So far, I haven't had much luck. I did find doors in both Tret Tree and Gondowan Cave that could've been extremely useful, but the former causes me to get glitched in the Tret room where the ladder should be after the boss fight, and the latter prevents me from getting back to Gondowan after doing the Lunpa sidequest.

That leads me to a question. For those with experience with the glitch, or lua scripting in general, is there an easier way to find new OOB doors other than just running around randomly? Kirkq's script has been very helpful for recording the exact locations of doors when I find them, but it doesn't make the searching process any less teidous.

Other than that, I've just been casually running through the game, working on little nitpicky things like Sanctum Warping at appropriate times, and making sure all of my boss strats work consistently (Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon are the only ones I'm not happy with at this point). If I apply all of the stuff I've been working on recently, I'll definitely be able to cut several minutes off of my previous best 4:38 time (hopefully sub 4:30, but we'll see). Still, I'm not quite ready to record this run yet, since all possibilities with the save retreat glitch haven't been discovered yet.

It's funny this thread should be bumped now of all times, when I've been lurking it for the past week or so. I haven't forgotten about my 100% run, I just kind of needed a break from it after the discovery of the save retreat glitch meant I'd have to nearly rework my route from scratch. Recently though, I've been trying to find out more about how the glitch works, and messing around with Kirkq's lua script to find new places I could make use of it. So far, I haven't had much luck. I did find doors in both Tret Tree and Gondowan Cave that could've been extremely useful, but the former causes me to get glitched in the Tret room where the ladder should be after the boss fight, and the latter prevents me from getting back to Gondowan after doing the Lunpa sidequest.

That leads me to a question. For those with experience with the glitch, or lua scripting in general, is there an easier way to find new OOB doors other than just running around randomly? Kirkq's script has been very helpful for recording the exact locations of doors when I find them, but it doesn't make the searching process any less teidous.

Other than that, I've just been casually running through the game, working on little nitpicky things like Sanctum Warping at appropriate times, and making sure all of my boss strats work consistently (Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon are the only ones I'm not happy with at this point). If I apply all of the stuff I've been working on recently, I'll definitely be able to cut several minutes off of my previous best 4:38 time (hopefully sub 4:30, but we'll see). Still, I'm not quite ready to record this run yet, since all possibilities with the save retreat glitch haven't been discovered yet.

Steve50013

2012-10-30 03:45:54 pm

You are doing a segmented run correct? If you are going for a any % run it all depends on the route you take the only time I see the sanctum warp being useful is after Karagol Sea. Before then there is very little back tracking seeing as how you have to go into a sanctum to get Mia in Imil.

I can see doing the sanctum Warp at Tolbi but that is about it since it is the only place that you are required to back track to in order to move along in the story.

The retreat glitch is still new to me. Do you have a list of locations where it is currently known to be useful? I found an article that says it can be used to skip parts of: Sol Sanctum, Goma Cave, Merc Lighthouse and Vault Cave.

The article however only explains how to do the Mia skip glitch using the Retreat gltich

The run I am planning is SS.

wersterlobe

2012-10-30 04:06:22 pm

Oh um, i ran the lua script through all dungeons for Golden Sun 1 but all my results are on my other computer and the uploaded files got deleted lol. But yeah I have all the information needed for this run (though I only want to do 100% SS with reset) but I'm too busy running other shit.

I could def get 100% to under 5 hours, maybe under 4 and a half, so I assume any% SS should shoot for sub 4 too? Idk, all I know is Golden Sun is a game that you will naturally get better at by running it -a fucking hell of a lot- as you start to learn the RNG patterns off by heart.

Steve50013

2012-10-30 04:31:02 pm

thing about RNG is there can be too much chance for doing them in a SS run. On my latest run I just crossed the seas at just past 3 hours. This is without any skips.

pkGamerB

Edit history:

pkGamerB: 2012-11-02 12:32:38 pm

pkGamerB: 2012-11-01 03:48:00 pm

pkGamerB: 2012-10-30 05:16:11 pm

2012-10-30 05:12:09 pm

Agent PK

Yeah, my run is segmented. There are only three places where Sanctum warping really seemed worth it, those being:

- Before Altmiller Cave, run into Tolbi real quick (and get Ember if it's faster), then as soon as Babi leaves the cave, save and Sanctum warp. Not a huge time saver, but cuts out the short backtrack.

- When I go to Vault for Sap and Vale for Kite (?), for whatever reason, Sanctum warping after getting Kite takes me to Vault rather than Vale. This one is a significant time saver (like a minute+), since it means I don't have to backtrack through Vale, and my distance to Lunpa on the World Map is nearly cut in half.

- The last one is, before Crossbone Isle, run in and out of Suhalla before entering the Desert. After I pick up Bane in Crossbone Isle, Sanctum warping saves me the time of retreating from Crossbone Isle, and running back to the tornado to send me to the start of the desert.

In total, I those warps may save me somewhere around 3 minutes, maybe more. Two more that I haven't tried, but sound good in theory, are ~~in Imil (grab Fever, sanctum warp to trigger the cutscene with Mia at old couple's house)~~ (edit: tried it, can't warp from there), and after getting the Djinn in Lunpa Fortress (may or may not be faster than retreat warping to the entrance).

As for the Retreat warp spots, I don't have a list of the ones I use handy atm, but I'll post one either later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time.

Then there's the Save Retreat glitch, which is explained better than I can by kirkq in various posts over the last two or three pages of this thread.

Yeah, my run is segmented. There are only three places where Sanctum warping really seemed worth it, those being:

- Before Altmiller Cave, run into Tolbi real quick (and get Ember if it's faster), then as soon as Babi leaves the cave, save and Sanctum warp. Not a huge time saver, but cuts out the short backtrack.

- When I go to Vault for Sap and Vale for Kite (?), for whatever reason, Sanctum warping after getting Kite takes me to Vault rather than Vale. This one is a significant time saver (like a minute+), since it means I don't have to backtrack through Vale, and my distance to Lunpa on the World Map is nearly cut in half.

- The last one is, before Crossbone Isle, run in and out of Suhalla before entering the Desert. After I pick up Bane in Crossbone Isle, Sanctum warping saves me the time of retreating from Crossbone Isle, and running back to the tornado to send me to the start of the desert.

In total, I those warps may save me somewhere around 3 minutes, maybe more. Two more that I haven't tried, but sound good in theory, are [s]in Imil (grab Fever, sanctum warp to trigger the cutscene with Mia at old couple's house)[/s] (edit: tried it, can't warp from there), and after getting the Djinn in Lunpa Fortress (may or may not be faster than retreat warping to the entrance).

As for the Retreat warp spots, I don't have a list of the ones I use handy atm, but I'll post one either later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time.

Then there's the Save Retreat glitch, which is explained better than I can by kirkq in various posts over the last two or three pages of this thread.

wersterlobe

2012-10-30 11:40:25 pm

There is no "chance" about the RNG in this game, which is kinda what I was going at.

Steve50013

2012-10-31 10:36:30 pm

So what are we using as the end of he run? Defeating the dragon at the end or the cut scene at the boat or the credits?

Manocheese

2012-11-01 02:37:43 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

I think the in-game timer will be used.

pkGamerB

2012-11-01 11:45:28 am

Agent PK

Okay, I finally had a chance to make up a list of the Retreat warps that I use.

- After Mia joins your party in Mercury Lighthouse, go back down the steps and Retreat warp into the south door. Backtrack a few rooms (3, I think) to grab Sleet, and then Retreat warp again out of that room, which puts you outside the door of the last room of the Lighthouse.

- In Fuchin Falls Cave, make your way to the upper level of the dark room, memorize the path across the invisible bridge, and warp into the door it leads to. This puts you right in the room with Zephyr. Once you get the Djinn, Retreat for real if you have the PP, or Retreat warp into the north door to exit the cave.

- In Vault Cave, there's a room with a frost puzzle and a door covered with vines, use Whirlwind on the vines and warp into the door.

- In Lunpa Fortress, head through as usual until you reach the room where you fight 3 Brigands. Retreat warp out the same door you came through. Head up the stairs to get the cell key, then back down the stairs toward Hammet's cell.

- At Suhalla Gate, in the area where you find Dew, rather than climbing all the way up the vines, Retreat warp into the cave, which takes you straight to the world map on the Venus Lighthouse side.

- Road to Babi Lighthouse: Run north into and south out of the second area. Repeat this action, but warp this time (northm then south). Climb the ladder and head to the last Jupiter Djinn.

- In the second room of Venus Lighthouse, go up the stairs to the left of the sand fall normally, then warp back down them.

On an unrelated note, for a game like Golden Sun where a good run is reliant on the save retreat glitch and abusing the predictable RNG, would a SS run w/resets obsolete a segmented run (or vice versa)? Assuming hard resets are allowed, I'd think an optimal SS w/resets would look identical to a segmented run. Not unless I'm missing something about the SS w/resets rule.

Okay, I finally had a chance to make up a list of the Retreat warps that I use.

[hidden]- After Mia joins your party in Mercury Lighthouse, go back down the steps and Retreat warp into the south door. Backtrack a few rooms (3, I think) to grab Sleet, and then Retreat warp again out of that room, which puts you outside the door of the last room of the Lighthouse.

- In Fuchin Falls Cave, make your way to the upper level of the dark room, memorize the path across the invisible bridge, and warp into the door it leads to. This puts you right in the room with Zephyr. Once you get the Djinn, Retreat for real if you have the PP, or Retreat warp into the north door to exit the cave.

- In Vault Cave, there's a room with a frost puzzle and a door covered with vines, use Whirlwind on the vines and warp into the door.

- In Lunpa Fortress, head through as usual until you reach the room where you fight 3 Brigands. Retreat warp out the same door you came through. Head up the stairs to get the cell key, then back down the stairs toward Hammet's cell.

- At Suhalla Gate, in the area where you find Dew, rather than climbing all the way up the vines, Retreat warp into the cave, which takes you straight to the world map on the Venus Lighthouse side.

- Road to Babi Lighthouse: Run north into and south out of the second area. Repeat this action, but warp this time (northm then south). Climb the ladder and head to the last Jupiter Djinn.

- In the second room of Venus Lighthouse, go up the stairs to the left of the sand fall normally, then warp back down them.[/hidden]

On an unrelated note, for a game like Golden Sun where a good run is reliant on the save retreat glitch and abusing the predictable RNG, would a SS run w/resets obsolete a segmented run (or vice versa)? Assuming hard resets are allowed, I'd think an optimal SS w/resets would look identical to a segmented run. Not unless I'm missing something about the SS w/resets rule.

TheOthin

2012-11-01 11:47:56 am

The thing is, the ingame time is only shown when you save, which is after the boat cutscene.

Quote from pkGamerB:

On an unrelated note, for a game like Golden Sun where a good run is reliant on the save retreat glitch and abusing the predictable RNG, would a SS run w/resets obsolete a segmented run (or vice versa)? Assuming hard resets are allowed, I'd think an optimal SS w/resets would look identical to a segmented run. Not unless I'm missing something about the SS w/resets rule.

Well, single-segment runs usually obsolete segmented runs if they're better. Segmented runs can't obsolete single-segment runs, because even if they would be identical, they're so much easier to get right.

Manocheese

2012-11-01 01:48:02 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from TheOthin:

The thing is, the ingame time is only shown when you save, which is after the boat cutscene.

Why is that a problem?

TheOthin

2012-11-01 03:11:45 pm

Quote from Manocheese:

Quote from TheOthin:

The thing is, the ingame time is only shown when you save, which is after the boat cutscene.

Why is that a problem?

It isn't. It's just that that's the answer to the question.

Steve50013

2012-11-04 06:41:53 pm

Quote from wersterlobe:

There is no "chance" about the RNG in this game, which is kinda what I was going at.

I was referring to the chance of not getting the right monster encounter to RNG certain items.

If you get the right encounter go for it. If not move on don't grind it out wasting time.

Also what items would be worth it to RNG? I know the feathered robe is but what else?

Arkhanno

Edit history:

Arkhanno: 2012-11-05 10:35:08 am

2012-11-05 10:14:58 am

It's good to see this thread has life again.

I've been working on Golden Sun boss strategies as a spur-of-the-moment kind of thing. I don't plan to run a RPG game, but I found I love routing them. Especially creating strategies for boss fights. I have a really safe strat for Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon for a SS any% run. This would be a SS without resets btw. Video below. Ignore Torch in this video: I picked him up in my file to test if he would be useful in the fight, but he turned out to just be more trouble than he was worth. Either I wasn't able to put him on a character that I needed him on or if he was on another character for the stat boosts it would fuck up their psynergy. I've decided to drop Torch in a SS any% without resets because he wastes time for no benefit.

A little about the Saturos/Menardi strat before you watch it: I go into the fight at level 16 for everyone except Mia who is at level 17. The defensive items that I have equipped are obtained through Lucky Medals. The only things that are absolutely needed from Lucky Medals are the Spirit Armor (One is needed, two is helpful until you get Dragon Scales), and Assassin Blade/Burning Axe. Kimono helps, but isn't necessary to the strategy. Magical Cassock can be equipped to Mia if you don't get a Kimono.

And for those interested I've also got a 4 turn Kraken strategy. This Kraken strategy is very luck dependent. If you do not get the stun T1 then you will die unless he is VERY kind to you. Granite T2 is just a precaution in case you don't get the stun and he is kind.

If you guys have any suggestions for improvements I'd love to hear them. This game is really fun to route. I might actually pick it up to run when I am done with IWBTG:G and IWBTG.

EDIT: I plan on making a video of Mercury Lighthouse and Saturos sometime soon. Once I get a new save file there with everything a SS any% without resets would have and figure out how Saturos works.

It's good to see this thread has life again.

I've been working on Golden Sun boss strategies as a spur-of-the-moment kind of thing. I don't plan to run a RPG game, but I found I love routing them. Especially creating strategies for boss fights. I have a really safe strat for Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon for a SS any% run. This would be a SS without resets btw. Video below. Ignore Torch in this video: I picked him up in my file to test if he would be useful in the fight, but he turned out to just be more trouble than he was worth. Either I wasn't able to put him on a character that I needed him on or if he was on another character for the stat boosts it would fuck up their psynergy. I've decided to drop Torch in a SS any% without resets because he wastes time for no benefit.

A little about the Saturos/Menardi strat before you watch it: I go into the fight at level 16 for everyone except Mia who is at level 17. The defensive items that I have equipped are obtained through Lucky Medals. The only things that are absolutely needed from Lucky Medals are the Spirit Armor (One is needed, two is helpful until you get Dragon Scales), and Assassin Blade/Burning Axe. Kimono helps, but isn't necessary to the strategy. Magical Cassock can be equipped to Mia if you don't get a Kimono.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLF4gruF5h8

And for those interested I've also got a 4 turn Kraken strategy. This Kraken strategy is very luck dependent. If you do not get the stun T1 then you will die unless he is VERY kind to you. Granite T2 is just a precaution in case you don't get the stun and he is kind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6hsJl706U0

If you guys have any suggestions for improvements I'd love to hear them. This game is really fun to route. I might actually pick it up to run when I am done with IWBTG:G and IWBTG.

EDIT: I plan on making a video of Mercury Lighthouse and Saturos sometime soon. Once I get a new save file there with everything a SS any% without resets would have and figure out how Saturos works.

pkGamerB

2012-11-05 12:35:06 pm

Agent PK

I can't really comment on the Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon strats since I've not tried any% before, but the Kraken fight is solid. I believe my levels and Djinn are about the same as yours at that point, and it's actually possible to cut one more turn off of that fight. Note that this strategy comes after a hard reset, so it may or may not be too risky for a SS without resets run. It's basically the same premise of getting stun/sleep on it on turn 1, and then wailing on it from there:

Everyone with four Djinn of their element. All Djinn standby except Breeze, Granite, Scorch, and Mist.

Turn 1:
Isaac unleashes Granite
Kraken's turn (Poison Tail)
Ivan unleashes Breeze
Mia Unleashes Mist (11/11), Kraken falls asleep
Garet unleashes Scorch (87/98)
Kraken is asleep

Turn 2:
Ivan summons Thor (538/636)
Isaac summons Judgement (540/1176)
*Kraken is no longer asleep*
Mia summons Boreas (342/1518)
Garet summons Meteor (738/2256)

Turn 3:
Ivan uses Plasma (68/2324)
Kraken's turn (Dark Blessing?)
Isaac uses Spire (60/2384)
Mia casts Ice (40/2424)

END BATTLE

Something that may or may not be useful, but I haven't tried myself, is swapping Garet and Mia's Djinn to see if it makes Mia faster than Kraken. Just swap their turn 1 actions and have Mia use Drench or regular attack (whichever does more) rather than Ice on turn 3. Aside from that, everything else would be the same.

I can't really comment on the Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon strats since I've not tried any% before, but the Kraken fight is solid. I believe my levels and Djinn are about the same as yours at that point, and it's actually possible to cut one more turn off of that fight. Note that this strategy comes after a hard reset, so it may or may not be too risky for a SS without resets run. It's basically the same premise of getting stun/sleep on it on turn 1, and then wailing on it from there:

[hidden]Everyone with four Djinn of their element. All Djinn standby except Breeze, Granite, Scorch, and Mist.

Turn 1:
Isaac unleashes Granite
Kraken's turn (Poison Tail)
Ivan unleashes Breeze
Mia Unleashes Mist (11/11), Kraken falls asleep
Garet unleashes Scorch (87/98)
Kraken is asleep

Turn 2:
Ivan summons Thor (538/636)
Isaac summons Judgement (540/1176)
*Kraken is no longer asleep*
Mia summons Boreas (342/1518)
Garet summons Meteor (738/2256)

Turn 3:
Ivan uses Plasma (68/2324)
Kraken's turn (Dark Blessing?)
Isaac uses Spire (60/2384)
Mia casts Ice (40/2424)

END BATTLE[/hidden]

Something that may or may not be useful, but I haven't tried myself, is swapping Garet and Mia's Djinn to see if it makes Mia faster than Kraken. Just swap their turn 1 actions and have Mia use Drench or regular attack (whichever does more) rather than Ice on turn 3. Aside from that, everything else would be the same.

Arkhanno

Edit history:

Arkhanno: 2012-11-05 04:20:56 pm

2012-11-05 03:02:46 pm

The problem with that in a SS without resets is we don't know what the RNG will be like at that phase. Gambling on status effects is really all we have, but I like your strat better than the one I came up with. We don't have to move Djinn around and we have two chances for status instead of one. The best part about that is we also use Granite T1 so if we don't get a status then we can decide whether or not healing is necessary T2. After testing it out, and forgetting that Kraken has Ply, if Garet uses Volcano then Kraken should fall assuming Kraken uses Ply.

MrTeedus, Lelo, and myself have figured out how Saturos' battle works. He is a pattern based boss: he will start randomly in his attack pattern (Unless you reset. >_>) then continue on from there without fail.

The pattern is this: Attack, Heat Flash, Fireball, Attack, Fireball, Heat Flash, Attack, Eruption

After Eruption he will start the pattern over again with Attack then Heat Flash. This means we can safely predict his Fireball and defend/heal when needed. In a SS we would be be defending for everyone when he uses Eruption but attacking/healing when he uses Fireball. Since we don't have Crystal Powder we can't do the strat posted in this thread since we can't manipulate the RNG through resets. It makes the battle a lot longer and more difficult, but it's still possible. I'm going to keep routing SS with MrTeedus for now.

I hope you can try out that Fusion Dragon strat. The only thing that can fuck you over is the Haunt status. Since we're skipping Tonic because it's too far out of the way we have no way of curing it. If it hits you on a Granite turn then you're pretty much screwed and someone dies. Since you're doing 100% you'll have a way around that. Good luck!

EDIT: Mercury Lighthouse route with Saturos strat! This is after training but before obtaining Sleet.

The problem with that in a SS without resets is we don't know what the RNG will be like at that phase. Gambling on status effects is really all we have, but I like your strat better than the one I came up with. We don't have to move Djinn around and we have two chances for status instead of one. The best part about that is we also use Granite T1 so if we don't get a status then we can decide whether or not healing is necessary T2. After testing it out, and forgetting that Kraken has Ply, if Garet uses Volcano then Kraken should fall assuming Kraken uses Ply.

MrTeedus, Lelo, and myself have figured out how Saturos' battle works. He is a pattern based boss: he will start randomly in his attack pattern (Unless you reset. >_>) then continue on from there without fail.

The pattern is this: Attack, Heat Flash, Fireball, Attack, Fireball, Heat Flash, Attack, Eruption

After Eruption he will start the pattern over again with Attack then Heat Flash. This means we can safely predict his Fireball and defend/heal when needed. In a SS we would be be defending for everyone when he uses Eruption but attacking/healing when he uses Fireball. Since we don't have Crystal Powder we can't do the strat posted in this thread since we can't manipulate the RNG through resets. It makes the battle a lot longer and more difficult, but it's still possible. I'm going to keep routing SS with MrTeedus for now.

I hope you can try out that Fusion Dragon strat. The only thing that can fuck you over is the Haunt status. Since we're skipping Tonic because it's too far out of the way we have no way of curing it. If it hits you on a Granite turn then you're pretty much screwed and someone dies. Since you're doing 100% you'll have a way around that. Good luck!

EDIT: Mercury Lighthouse route with Saturos strat! This is after training but before obtaining Sleet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMCwbmaQxl4

TarHeelTalent

2012-12-25 11:41:52 pm

Hey everyone, so I am new to speedrunning, but seeing someone play Golden Sun recently and reading through this and a few older threads made me interested in trying to run it. I am interested in doing an any% and/or 100% SS no-reset run. Are these categories still relevant now with the allowance of resets for runs? In the thread discussing exemptions (prior to the broad allowance) Golden Sun hadn't been given one of the exemptions yet, so would a reset and no-reset run be considered different enough to warrant different categories, or is resetting just considered more optimized? Also, how realistic is a SS no-reset run, because there isn't the RNG manipulation that resets allow?

That being said, I think it would be interesting and fun to plan and execute a SS no-reset route. It seems like the most important thing will be to find the lowest levels with fewest/quickest items/Djinn to beat Saturos/Menardi and the Fusion Dragon consistently at the end of the game. If this is higher than the minimum needed to get to that point with required battles then which random encounters are most efficient to battle rather than run from will be important to optimize. I think the most important thing to look at is Boss strategies, particularly the final set of bosses, but the Manticore, Menardi and the Kraken (status ailments though?) to a lesser extent also. Then the encounter strategy to use the time most efficiently to gain any extra levels that would be required or would save time or to run away from time-wasting battles. Then a route strategy to acquire any items/djinn that contribute to those goals.

I have a few questions about Golden Sun speedrunning and a few other general questions. For Golden Sun, is there any knowledge now about the (psuedo-)RNG of Golden Sun that would be beneficial in a no-resets run? It seems to my understanding so far that hard-resets are the only RNG-resetting thing we really know about so far as far as battles and items are concerned. On one of the TASVideo threads on Golden Sun there was some talk about the encounter RNG, but I don't know how much we know about this and if anything can help a no-reset speedrun. Also, am I correct that the only glitch that can help a no-reset run would be retreat warps (and I assume this doesn't nullify a run in the categories I spoke of?). I think pk's list of retreat warps then is really helpful in planning a run. Next, what is considered 100% for this game? Are we defining it as all djinn + completion, or does it include the optional bosses like Deadbeard? Also, did anyone ever find out whether there was a speed difference between the US and Japanese versions of the game? Finally, a few questions about time. First, what should be my goal for a decent, submittable run in these categories? Second, where does timing stop for a Golden Sun run (I'm not sure i saw a conclusion on this question earlier).

More broadly, what are some tools I could use for recording video? I understand that for any submitted videos I'll have to use a console and everything, and I think most people use a Game Boy Player to play Game boy games on Gamecube? What then would be a good video capture that meets the quality standards, but wouldn't be too expensive? Prior to the actual submission, what would be a good way to record video on my computer (which is a mac) and possibly even stream some practice/testing (though I'm not sure about this).

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. I saw that Werster said he had a sizable SS route/document and that Arkhanno is interested in helping to route a run, plus everyone else's knowledge and tips from the segmented runs.

I apologize for all the questions, thanks everyone for the help.

Hey everyone, so I am new to speedrunning, but seeing someone play Golden Sun recently and reading through this and a few older threads made me interested in trying to run it. I am interested in doing an any% and/or 100% SS no-reset run. Are these categories still relevant now with the allowance of resets for runs? In the thread discussing exemptions (prior to the broad allowance) Golden Sun hadn't been given one of the exemptions yet, so would a reset and no-reset run be considered different enough to warrant different categories, or is resetting just considered more optimized? Also, how realistic is a SS no-reset run, because there isn't the RNG manipulation that resets allow?

That being said, I think it would be interesting and fun to plan and execute a SS no-reset route. It seems like the most important thing will be to find the lowest levels with fewest/quickest items/Djinn to beat Saturos/Menardi and the Fusion Dragon consistently at the end of the game. If this is higher than the minimum needed to get to that point with required battles then which random encounters are most efficient to battle rather than run from will be important to optimize. I think the most important thing to look at is Boss strategies, particularly the final set of bosses, but the Manticore, Menardi and the Kraken (status ailments though?) to a lesser extent also. Then the encounter strategy to use the time most efficiently to gain any extra levels that would be required or would save time or to run away from time-wasting battles. Then a route strategy to acquire any items/djinn that contribute to those goals.

I have a few questions about Golden Sun speedrunning and a few other general questions. For Golden Sun, is there any knowledge now about the (psuedo-)RNG of Golden Sun that would be beneficial in a no-resets run? It seems to my understanding so far that hard-resets are the only RNG-resetting thing we really know about so far as far as battles and items are concerned. On one of the TASVideo threads on Golden Sun there was some talk about the encounter RNG, but I don't know how much we know about this and if anything can help a no-reset speedrun. Also, am I correct that the only glitch that can help a no-reset run would be retreat warps (and I assume this doesn't nullify a run in the categories I spoke of?). I think pk's list of retreat warps then is really helpful in planning a run. Next, what is considered 100% for this game? Are we defining it as all djinn + completion, or does it include the optional bosses like Deadbeard? Also, did anyone ever find out whether there was a speed difference between the US and Japanese versions of the game? Finally, a few questions about time. First, what should be my goal for a decent, submittable run in these categories? Second, where does timing stop for a Golden Sun run (I'm not sure i saw a conclusion on this question earlier).

More broadly, what are some tools I could use for recording video? I understand that for any submitted videos I'll have to use a console and everything, and I think most people use a Game Boy Player to play Game boy games on Gamecube? What then would be a good video capture that meets the quality standards, but wouldn't be too expensive? Prior to the actual submission, what would be a good way to record video on my computer (which is a mac) and possibly even stream some practice/testing (though I'm not sure about this).

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. I saw that Werster said he had a sizable SS route/document and that Arkhanno is interested in helping to route a run, plus everyone else's knowledge and tips from the segmented runs.

I apologize for all the questions, thanks everyone for the help.

Arkhanno

2012-12-26 10:49:05 am

TarHeelTalent, I've been working on a route with MrTeedus for quite a while and we finally have one that works for SS. Before I go into it I'll answer a few questions you have.

RTA vs SS

RTA and SS (Otherwise known as SS with resets and SS without resets respectively) will always be separate categories. RTA usually allows for warping due to the reset but if not then it allows for RNG manipulation. Both allow for different types of optimizations and different thought processes in planning. One isn't necessarily better than the other. It just depends on what you feel like doing and if the game you're attempting to speed run will benefit from resets or not.

Is a SS run doable for Golden Sun?

SS is actually quite possible. While the game is mostly going to come down to luck, as with all RPGs, Golden Sun is a lot more brutal. In SS pretty much any set of mobs can kill your party if they decide to gang up on one person. Regardless, I've had runs where I've made it up to Venus Lightouse without a character dying. Getting through Venus Lighthouse without a character dying is an entirely different story. As I said before, I've been working on a route with MrTeedus for a while now. We have one that works, and we've mapped 98% of the retreat glitches used in SS. (I was too tired to see if all the leaves in Tret actually do anything useful so that's the other 2%. Feel free to see if they do anything if you want.)

To help you start off planning, because it actually is really fun to plan a game, I'll give you a few of the levels we fight bosses/forced battles for the SS run.

Forge: Levels 4/3/4
Sleet: Levels 7/7/8/10
Saturos: Levels 8/7/7/10 (This is when I move Ivan to the left most slot so that's why the levels seem a little odd. Also, Isaac and Garet may level up from the Sleet battle, depending on the encounters you get)

For Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon the levels will vary a little. I've decided that it's faster, and safer, to kill the mobs in Venus Lighthouse. After having several runs die there because my party gets wiped because I can't run for 3-6 turns I'd rather take 1-2 turns killing the mobs than 3-6 trying to run hoping no one dies. Originally the plan was to go in there at levels 16/16/16/17. As for Djinn, we get most of them. There are a few that are really out of the way so just skip them.

I'm pretty sure that the only way to manipulate the RNG is to reset. I haven't found any consistent way of doing it otherwise because we don't know where the RNG is at any point in time.

The only glitch we use in SS is the retreat glitch.

Goals and ending

For a SS a sub 5 hour run is what I'm looking at right now. I don't have a better estimate to give because I haven't been able to complete a run yet. (Venus Lighthouse wipes are terrible. T_T) After I complete a run then I can give a better estimate, but right now that is what I'm shooting for. It seems like it should be easily obtainable, assuming all the boss battles go your way. As for when to stop the timer, I was going to go with SDA's loss of control. That would mean when you enter the boat after Fusion Dragon.

Good luck with routing. If you don't feel like routing the game yourself then hop in my stream if you ever see me running Golden Sun and I'll be willing to answer any questions you have.

TarHeelTalent, I've been working on a route with MrTeedus for quite a while and we finally have one that works for SS. Before I go into it I'll answer a few questions you have.

[b][u]RTA vs SS[/u][/b]

RTA and SS (Otherwise known as SS with resets and SS without resets respectively) will always be separate categories. RTA usually allows for warping due to the reset but if not then it allows for RNG manipulation. Both allow for different types of optimizations and different thought processes in planning. One isn't necessarily better than the other. It just depends on what you feel like doing and if the game you're attempting to speed run will benefit from resets or not.

[b][u]Is a SS run doable for Golden Sun?[/u][/b]

SS is actually quite possible. While the game is mostly going to come down to luck, as with all RPGs, Golden Sun is a lot more brutal. In SS pretty much any set of mobs can kill your party if they decide to gang up on one person. Regardless, I've had runs where I've made it up to Venus Lightouse without a character dying. Getting through Venus Lighthouse without a character dying is an entirely different story. As I said before, I've been working on a route with MrTeedus for a while now. We have one that works, and we've mapped 98% of the retreat glitches used in SS. (I was too tired to see if all the leaves in Tret actually do anything useful so that's the other 2%. Feel free to see if they do anything if you want.)

To help you start off planning, because it actually is really fun to plan a game, I'll give you a few of the levels we fight bosses/forced battles for the SS run.

Forge: Levels 4/3/4
Sleet: Levels 7/7/8/10
Saturos: Levels 8/7/7/10 (This is when I move Ivan to the left most slot so that's why the levels seem a little odd. Also, Isaac and Garet may level up from the Sleet battle, depending on the encounters you get)

For Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon the levels will vary a little. I've decided that it's faster, and safer, to kill the mobs in Venus Lighthouse. After having several runs die there because my party gets wiped because I can't run for 3-6 turns I'd rather take 1-2 turns killing the mobs than 3-6 trying to run hoping no one dies. Originally the plan was to go in there at levels 16/16/16/17. As for Djinn, we get most of them. There are a few that are really out of the way so just skip them.

I'm pretty sure that the only way to manipulate the RNG is to reset. I haven't found any consistent way of doing it otherwise because we don't know where the RNG is at any point in time.

The only glitch we use in SS is the retreat glitch.

[b][u]Goals and ending[/u][/b]

For a SS a sub 5 hour run is what I'm looking at right now. I don't have a better estimate to give because I haven't been able to complete a run yet. (Venus Lighthouse wipes are terrible. T_T) After I complete a run then I can give a better estimate, but right now that is what I'm shooting for. It seems like it should be easily obtainable, assuming all the boss battles go your way. As for when to stop the timer, I was going to go with SDA's loss of control. That would mean when you enter the boat after Fusion Dragon.

Good luck with routing. If you don't feel like routing the game yourself then hop in my stream if you ever see me running Golden Sun and I'll be willing to answer any questions you have.