Golden Sun (Sub 4 Hours????)

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-22 10:29:31 am

TheOthin: 2011-05-22 10:28:07 am

2011-05-22 10:26:23 am

Quote from FlamingMage:

The next few are quite easy, expect them pretty soon.

EDIT: Kirq...you realize those retreat glitch applications you found totally void huge chunks of my route Sad

Yeah... you're going to want to slow down a bit.

This is what kirq was talking about. He has a few other videos about it, too. I've been trying to replicate it, but it's not easy.

Great first segment, though. I don't think there are or ever will be any good glitches to mess with it.

FlamingMage

2011-05-22 10:49:34 am

Quote from Angelmark:

Awesome, I have a very good feeling about this run. You really seem to know what you're doing and the commentary was informative and pleasant to listen to.

Keep it up. Smiley

Thanks

Although until I work out the retreat glitch stuff I won't be moving onwards.

I've seen the videos Othin, but it good to link his youtube in this thread. I'll admit I don't fully understand how I'm suppose to find these doors in the void without having any clue where I'm running Tongue

kirkq

Edit history:

kirkq: 2011-05-22 03:25:05 pm

kirkq: 2011-05-22 03:24:00 pm

2011-05-22 03:23:28 pm

Die Hard 2013.

Quote from FlamingMage:

Is VBA user friendly and mac compatible without a bootcamp equivalent?

It is one of the most user friendly emulators in my opinion. Most emulators lack in mac compatibility, I think this one is no exception.

Quote from FlamingMage:

EDIT: Kirq...you realize those retreat glitch applications you found totally void huge chunks of my route Sad

Until the save retreat glitch is fully investigated, it will continually void the route. This is why I'm trying to encourage people to investigate it themselves. You're welcome to do a run without retreat glitching.

Here is a rough map of Sol Sanctum: http://www.mediafire.com/?jgo3nx4l4cz45sg

The save retreat glitch translates your coordinates from the floor you are on to the bottom floor. The save retreat glitch can be performed in any room that the normal retreat glitch can be performed. Save retreat glitch can drop you into another room or out of bounds depending on your coordinates. You'll notice that certain objects don't load correctly in Goma Cave, so I refresh the room by leaving it.

You'll notice I found a door in Goma Cave that led to the cave in Vale. A few speculations were made about this. 1: This is possibly the default room in the game, "Door 0" or something. 2: This cave was possibly connected to Goma Cave at one point in the game's development. 3: It may be possible the off map doors can lead to other dungeons, but no other place has had this property yet.

I have looked a fair amount through Sol Sanctum, Goma Cave, Tret Tree, and Mercury Lighthouse. A small skip may exist in the tree portion of Tret Tree. It may be possible to get out of bounds in the section before the tree, but it is difficult. I also tried getting into Lunpa, but failed. I have recorded the location of many of the doors I've found in the TASVideos thread.

I was under the impression that it was not possible to skip Kolima Bridge. That's as far as I got. I think large skips will exist after this point due to the way the areas are constructed.

Quote from FlamingMage:

I'll admit I don't fully understand how I'm suppose to find these doors in the void without having any clue where I'm running Tongue

Get the version of VBA from TASVideos here: http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources.html (For mac it is probably painful to get this going)
You need to run the lua script I posted here: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3409&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=91
Copy that script into a text file and save as "GoldenSun.lua", then open it with the lua script menu option in VBA while the game is running.

Quote from TheOthin:

However, in that topic, you don't give a detailed explanation of how to find the secret doors you seem to know how to find

This lua script will tell you your coordinates at all times. You want to walk off the top or the left of the coordinate map, so your coordinates underflow. All doors are off map. They are likely garbage in memory, which is why it is difficult to understand exactly how it is working. If you're doing this without coordinates, you can't even tell if you're moving or if you're stuck against a wall. Looking for doors on console is probably not a good use of time. Even if you do randomly find one, you won't be able to say where it is at or reproduce it, most likely.

[quote="FlamingMage"]Is VBA user friendly and mac compatible without a bootcamp equivalent? [/quote]

It is one of the most user friendly emulators in my opinion.  Most emulators lack in mac compatibility, I think this one is no exception.

[quote="FlamingMage"]EDIT: Kirq...you realize those retreat glitch applications you found totally void huge chunks of my route :( [/quote]

Until the save retreat glitch is fully investigated, it will continually void the route.  This is why I'm trying to encourage people to investigate it themselves.  You're welcome to do a run without retreat glitching.

Here is a rough map of Sol Sanctum: http://www.mediafire.com/?jgo3nx4l4cz45sg

The save retreat glitch translates your coordinates from the floor you are on to the bottom floor.  The save retreat glitch can be performed in any room that the normal retreat glitch can be performed.  Save retreat glitch can drop you into another room or out of bounds depending on your coordinates.  You'll notice that certain objects don't load correctly in Goma Cave, so I refresh the room by leaving it.

You'll notice I found a door in Goma Cave that led to the cave in Vale.  A few speculations were made about this.  1: This is possibly the default room in the game, "Door 0" or something.  2: This cave was possibly connected to Goma Cave at one point in the game's development. 3: It may be possible the off map doors can lead to other dungeons, but no other place has had this property yet.

I have looked a fair amount through Sol Sanctum, Goma Cave, Tret Tree, and Mercury Lighthouse.  A small skip may exist in the tree portion of Tret Tree.  It may be possible to get out of bounds in the section before the tree, but it is difficult.  I also tried getting into Lunpa, but failed.  I have recorded the location of many of the doors I've found in the TASVideos thread.

I was under the impression that it was not possible to skip Kolima Bridge.  That's as far as I got.  I think large skips will exist after this point due to the way the areas are constructed.

[quote="FlamingMage"]I'll admit I don't fully understand how I'm suppose to find these doors in the void without having any clue where I'm running :P[/quote]

Get the version of VBA from TASVideos here: http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources.html  (For mac it is probably painful to get this going)
You need to run the lua script I posted here: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3409&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=91
Copy that script into a text file and save as "GoldenSun.lua", then open it with the lua script menu option in VBA while the game is running.

[quote="TheOthin"]However, in that topic, you don't give a detailed explanation of how to find the secret doors you seem to know how to find[/quote]

This lua script will tell you your coordinates at all times.  You want to walk off the top or the left of the coordinate map, so your coordinates underflow.  All doors are off map.  They are likely garbage in memory, which is why it is difficult to understand exactly how it is working.  If you're doing this without coordinates, you can't even tell if you're moving or if you're stuck against a wall.  Looking for doors on console is probably not a good use of time.  Even if you do randomly find one, you won't be able to say where it is at or reproduce it, most likely.

Itsu de Mo

2011-05-22 04:28:43 pm

Arrested for felony abuse of emotes

There is a Mac version of VBA. The only problem I've had with it was that it couldn't save the Japanese version of GS. No problems with the U rom though.

Really looking forward to this. :3 I love this game, but I could never imagine myself speedrunning it. ^^

FlamingMage

2011-05-22 04:39:56 pm

The caves in vale are actually part of Goma Cave, technically, so that explains that link there.

So here's a question; how possible is it to memorize the required routes to reach these out-of-map doors? Is it likely that I could drill myself to the point of being able to hit them with some precision on the Gamecube, or are those doors just things that will have to be left for the TAS?

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-22 04:45:55 pm

2011-05-22 04:44:29 pm

Quote from kirkq:

Quote from TheOthin:

However, in that topic, you don't give a detailed explanation of how to find the secret doors you seem to know how to find

This lua script will tell you your coordinates at all times. You want to walk off the top or the left of the coordinate map, so your coordinates underflow. All doors are off map. They are likely garbage in memory, which is why it is difficult to understand exactly how it is working. If you're doing this without coordinates, you can't even tell if you're moving or if you're stuck against a wall. Looking for doors on console is probably not a good use of time. Even if you do randomly find one, you won't be able to say where it is at or reproduce it, most likely.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I realize that new doors cannot effectively be found on console. However, once a useful door is found, as with the ones you have found, it would be incredibly helpful for someone who has found it to post a brief explanation of what movements to make to avoid obstacles so that they can underflow the coordinates, and what to do once the coordinates have been underflowed to reach the door. This would make it so that others can do the same thing on console, without needing to first do it on an emulator.

Of course, it will take continued work on emulators to unlock the rest of the secrets in these games. But it's completely possible for some if not all of these doors, once located, to be reached on console, and we should seek a way for people to learn how to do so without needing to use emulators first for practice.

[quote="kirkq"][quote="TheOthin"]However, in that topic, you don't give a detailed explanation of how to find the secret doors you seem to know how to find[/quote]

This lua script will tell you your coordinates at all times.  You want to walk off the top or the left of the coordinate map, so your coordinates underflow.  All doors are off map.  They are likely garbage in memory, which is why it is difficult to understand exactly how it is working.  If you're doing this without coordinates, you can't even tell if you're moving or if you're stuck against a wall.  Looking for doors on console is probably not a good use of time.  Even if you do randomly find one, you won't be able to say where it is at or reproduce it, most likely.[/quote]
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I realize that new doors cannot effectively be found on console. However, once a useful door is found, as with the ones you have found, it would be incredibly helpful for someone who has found it to post a brief explanation of what movements to make to avoid obstacles so that they can underflow the coordinates, and what to do once the coordinates have been underflowed to reach the door. This would make it so that others can do the same thing on console, without needing to first do it on an emulator.

Of course, it will take continued work on emulators to unlock the rest of the secrets in these games. But it's completely possible for some if not all of these doors, once located, to be reached on console, and we should seek a way for people to learn how to do so without needing to use emulators first for practice.

kirkq

2011-05-22 05:14:52 pm

Die Hard 2013.

Quote from Itsu de Mo:

There is a Mac version of VBA.

I don't know if it's compatible with lua scripting, you could probably open up memory watch and look at the addresses in the script, though.

Quote from FlamingMage:

The caves in vale are actually part of Goma Cave, technically, so that explains that link there.

What do you base that on?

Quote from FlamingMage:

So here's a question; how possible is it to memorize the required routes to reach these out-of-map doors? Is it likely that I could drill myself to the point of being able to hit them with some precision on the Gamecube, or are those doors just things that will have to be left for the TAS?

I think it can reasonably be done on console with some practice. You just have to understand where the off map obstacles are.

Quote from TheOthin:

However, once a useful door is found, as with the ones you have found, it would be incredibly helpful for someone who has found it to post a brief explanation of what movements to make to avoid obstacles so that they can underflow the coordinates, and what to do once the coordinates have been underflowed to reach the door. This would make it so that others can do the same thing on console, without needing to first do it on an emulator.

Once you know what coordinates to get to, it is not terribly hard to find your way there when you can see your coordinates on the screen. It is unreasonable to expect me to post which way to walk for how long for every door I find. This is why I made the script for the coordinates, and it is why I'm asking you to open up the emulator and find a reliable path to the coordinates yourself. Opening the emulator and figuring out how to do this would take maybe an hour, and then you have the knowledge to find and document your own doors. If I go door by door and step by step, I'm just wasting my time describing something you could learn to do and then also contribute to.

[quote="Itsu de Mo"]There is a Mac version of VBA.[/quote]

I don't know if it's compatible with lua scripting, you could probably open up memory watch and look at the addresses in the script, though.

[quote="FlamingMage"]The caves in vale are actually part of Goma Cave, technically, so that explains that link there.  [/quote]

What do you base that on?

[quote="FlamingMage"]So here's a question; how possible is it to memorize the required routes to reach these out-of-map doors? Is it likely that I could drill myself to the point of being able to hit them with some precision on the Gamecube, or are those doors just things that will have to be left for the TAS? [/quote]

I think it can reasonably be done on console with some practice.  You just have to understand where the off map obstacles are.

[quote="TheOthin"]However, once a useful door is found, as with the ones you have found, it would be incredibly helpful for someone who has found it to post a brief explanation of what movements to make to avoid obstacles so that they can underflow the coordinates, and what to do once the coordinates have been underflowed to reach the door. This would make it so that others can do the same thing on console, without needing to first do it on an emulator.[/quote]

Once you know what coordinates to get to, it is not terribly hard to find your way there when you can see your coordinates on the screen.  It is unreasonable to expect me to post which way to walk for how long for every door I find.  This is why I made the script for the coordinates, and it is why I'm asking you to open up the emulator and find a reliable path to the coordinates yourself.  Opening the emulator and figuring out how to do this would take maybe an hour, and then you have the knowledge to find and document your own doors.  If I go door by door and step by step, I'm just wasting my time describing something you could learn to do and then also contribute to.

TheOthin

2011-05-22 05:53:41 pm

Quote from kirkq:

Once you know what coordinates to get to, it is not terribly hard to find your way there when you can see your coordinates on the screen. It is unreasonable to expect me to post which way to walk for how long for every door I find. This is why I made the script for the coordinates, and it is why I'm asking you to open up the emulator and find a reliable path to the coordinates yourself. Opening the emulator and figuring out how to do this would take maybe an hour, and then you have the knowledge to find and document your own doors. If I go door by door and step by step, I'm just wasting my time describing something you could learn to do and then also contribute to.

And what about when you can't see your coordinates on the screen? TAS runs and emulators are not the only ways to play a game. The only runs that matter here are ones that are done on console, so any explanations need to be enough for someone to use on console, not just on an emulator.

I didn't say you should post how to get to every door you find; I specifically said just important ones, such as the one that lets you go directly to the end of Sol Sanctum. The amount of time and effort it would take for you to explain what you were doing for the 11 seconds you were off-screen the second time in your Sol Sanctum video, an explanation that would become known to countless GS players, is surely far less than the time and effort you've spent explaining to me why you feel that would be too much work.

What would be unreasonable would be to expect every person interested in trying out these glitches for themselves to spend that hour messing around with an illegal, modified copy of the game before being able to do a thing on their actual cartridges. I'm not sure whether you're implying that you think that should happen or not, but in order for it to not happen, someone will need to write and make public an explanation for how to make use of the most important of these doors, an explanation that can be put to use by anyone, without using an emulator for even a second. I'm confident that that is entirely feasible, and if necessary, I'll put in that hour to make it possible. I certainly think that hour might turn out to be a worthwhile use of my time for the purpose of finding other doors, but repeating your experiments from the ground up is not a worthwhile use of my time.

Now, that map you posted earlier is another story. It could potentially help anyone figure out what you're doing. Problem is, unless I missed something, you never gave a way to read it, so it's difficult to tell what any of it means.

[quote="kirkq"]Once you know what coordinates to get to, it is not terribly hard to find your way there when you can see your coordinates on the screen.  It is unreasonable to expect me to post which way to walk for how long for every door I find.  This is why I made the script for the coordinates, and it is why I'm asking you to open up the emulator and find a reliable path to the coordinates yourself.  Opening the emulator and figuring out how to do this would take maybe an hour, and then you have the knowledge to find and document your own doors.  If I go door by door and step by step, I'm just wasting my time describing something you could learn to do and then also contribute to.[/quote]
And what about when you can't see your coordinates on the screen? TAS runs and emulators are not the only ways to play a game. The only runs that matter here are ones that are done on console, so any explanations need to be enough for someone to use on console, not just on an emulator.

I didn't say you should post how to get to every door you find; I specifically said just important ones, such as the one that lets you go directly to the end of Sol Sanctum. The amount of time and effort it would take for you to explain what you were doing for the 11 seconds you were off-screen the second time in your Sol Sanctum video, an explanation that would become known to countless GS players, is surely far less than the time and effort you've spent explaining to me why you feel that would be too much work.

What would be unreasonable would be to expect every person interested in trying out these glitches for themselves to spend that hour messing around with an illegal, modified copy of the game before being able to do a thing on their actual cartridges. I'm not sure whether you're implying that you think that should happen or not, but in order for it to not happen, someone will need to write and make public an explanation for how to make use of the most important of these doors, an explanation that can be put to use by anyone, without using an emulator for even a second. I'm confident that that is entirely feasible, and if necessary, I'll put in that hour to make it possible. I certainly think that hour might turn out to be a worthwhile use of my time for the purpose of finding other doors, but repeating your experiments from the ground up is not a worthwhile use of my time.

Now, that map you posted earlier is another story. It could potentially help anyone figure out what you're doing. Problem is, unless I missed something, you never gave a way to read it, so it's difficult to tell what any of it means.

VorpalEdge

2011-05-22 06:40:13 pm

welcome to the machine

Quote:

What would be unreasonable would be to expect every person interested in trying out these glitches for themselves to spend that hour messing around with an illegal, modified copy of the game before being able to do a thing on their actual cartridges.

give a man a fish, he eats for a day. teach a man to fish, he might find his own door out in the middle of nowhere and find out how to get back to it.

TheOthin

2011-05-22 06:56:39 pm

Quote from VorpalEdge:

Quote:

What would be unreasonable would be to expect every person interested in trying out these glitches for themselves to spend that hour messing around with an illegal, modified copy of the game before being able to do a thing on their actual cartridges.

give a man a fish, he eats for a day. teach a man to fish, he might find his own door out in the middle of nowhere and find out how to get back to it.

Teaching is a constant between both possibilities. The only question is, having taught a man to fish, do you show him some good places to fish and suggest that he might find even better fish by finding other places to fish, or do you tell him that if he wants to fish, he'll have to find those places himself?

FlamingMage

2011-05-22 07:01:37 pm

Quote from kirkq:

What do you base that on?

I don't recall, actually. Aren't the textures the same though? And doesn't the music match? For some, probably semi-valid at least, reason I thought that I knew that Tongue

Can you encounter battles in those little rooms?

kirkq

2011-05-22 07:06:34 pm

Die Hard 2013.

TheOthin, You haven't read the TASVideos thread starting at post 40 like I linked on the previous page and you haven't run the lua script in the emulator or you wouldn't be asking me where the doors are and you wouldn't be so confused about how the excel spreadsheet works. I'm not going to give you the step by step way of walking to the door because I gave you the coordinates of the door in the link to the TASVideos thread, and a way to observe the game's coordinates in the lua script. I also mentioned that you could also just open memory watch and look at the relevant coordinates at the addresses given in the lua script, though it is not as preferable. You haven't tried what I've told you and you're already saying I'm not giving you enough information.

Flaming Mage: Aren't most dungeons the same music? I don't think there are any battles in there.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-22 07:21:56 pm

TheOthin: 2011-05-22 07:20:56 pm

TheOthin: 2011-05-22 07:19:49 pm

2011-05-22 07:19:36 pm

I read the thread you linked to in its entirety when you first sent me the link on YouTube. That's actually what led me to ending up here. It's not enough to make the spreadsheet make sense. More of a written explanation for how to read that spreadsheet is, perhaps, all that would be needed for your explanation to be complete, so I'm not sure why you're so adamantly opposed to doing so.

What I didn't do is go through the hassle of using an emulator, that's correct. That is, as I explained, unreasonable to expect just any player wishing to try out a glitched playthrough to do. I am willing to do so, but that is not the matter at hand here, because this is not about me.

kirkq

Edit history:

kirkq: 2011-05-22 07:26:10 pm

2011-05-22 07:24:57 pm

Die Hard 2013.

The number on the far left is the Y coordinate. The number in the box is the X coordinate. The colors denote different rooms in Sol Sanctum. I think light pink is the bottom floor if I recall. I labeled some of the rooms R1, R2, etc. The dark red area is where you can actually land in another room. I'm not sure how you intend to do anything productive without viewing your coordinates off map in the emulator, but we've already decided that my expectations are unrealistic.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-22 08:15:00 pm

2011-05-22 08:14:08 pm

See how much more we can accomplish when we take a bit of time to explain things?

That said, there are a few things that still aren't clear. Specifically, where you're actually trying to get to in order to reach the door. I remember you kept talking about underflowing the coordinates by going up or left, but from the looks of that map, it should be possible to do that just by going up far enough or up a bit and left far enough. Neither one seemed to work when I tried them, so I'm assuming there's something more to it or something more you have to do once you do so, or both. If you could clear those things up, it seems like that should be enough information to replicate it on a cartridge without too much difficulty, and that's all I was ever saying was needed.

kirkq

Edit history:

kirkq: 2011-05-22 08:41:20 pm

2011-05-22 08:40:57 pm

Die Hard 2013.

The door locations are in the TASVideos thread in the same post as the script. You're just wasting your time if you're going to try doing it without the coordinates, and you're wasting my time if you expect me to describe how to do it without the coordinates. (Not that I seem to have anything better to do than argue on a forum.)

PJ

2011-05-22 09:51:24 pm

Is PJ

Quote from kirkq:

(Not that I seem to have anything better to do than argue on a forum.)

If you're looking for something to do other than argue on a forum, I can give you a few suggestions.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-23 04:01:49 am

TheOthin: 2011-05-23 03:33:00 am

TheOthin: 2011-05-23 03:28:29 am

2011-05-23 03:24:48 am

Quote from kirkq:

The door locations are in the TASVideos thread in the same post as the script. You're just wasting your time if you're going to try doing it without the coordinates, and you're wasting my time if you expect me to describe how to do it without the coordinates. (Not that I seem to have anything better to do than argue on a forum.)

I remember seeing those coordinates. I thought they seemed much higher than the ones on the spreadsheet, so I had assumed the numbers meant something different, but I realize now that you just stopped at 129 for convenience. So what you were saying is that going below 0 just puts you back at 4294, I assume. In that case, I just have to ask: which door is it?

Once that's clear, this should be enough information. As it seems all the obstacles can easily be avoided that way, getting to those coordinates with that information shouldn't be at all difficult, even on cartridge, for me and probably most other dedicated players, and it should also be enough for me to explain how to do it for less dedicated players. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

[quote="kirkq"]The door locations are in the TASVideos thread in the same post as the script.  You're just wasting your time if you're going to try doing it without the coordinates, and you're wasting my time if you expect me to describe how to do it without the coordinates. (Not that I seem to have anything better to do than argue on a forum.)[/quote]
I remember seeing those coordinates. I thought they seemed much higher than the ones on the spreadsheet, so I had assumed the numbers meant something different, but I realize now that you just stopped at 129 for convenience. So what you were saying is that going below 0 just puts you back at 4294, I assume. In that case, I just have to ask: which door is it?

Once that's clear, this should be enough information. As it seems all the obstacles can easily be avoided that way, getting to those coordinates with that information shouldn't be at all difficult, even on cartridge, for me and probably most other dedicated players, and it should also be enough for me to explain how to do it for less dedicated players. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

FlamingMage

Edit history:

FlamingMage: 2011-05-24 03:36:37 pm

2011-05-23 04:36:16 am

PJ always contributes valuably Tongue

I'll look into mac VBA tonight and see if that script will work or if I'll have to learn how to use the damn thing then read the memory for coordinates....or whatever it's called Sad

Edit: Also, I assume that everyone one else agrees that no variation of the retreat glitch (yet discovered) would push a run into the "large skips" category? Unless we find a way to skip several areas at once, I don't think this run should be classed as large-skips, but it certainly could be.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-24 04:52:59 pm

2011-05-24 04:51:52 pm

So far, there doesn't seem to be anything questionable. Unless someone finds a way to drastically expand the implications of one of the forms of the glitch to use them in ways not currently foreseeable, it doesn't seem like there will ever be anything questionable in Golden Sun.

In The Lost Age, on the other hand, there's some potential for big skips. Particularly involving Gondowan Cliffs. If a way is found to save Retreat glitch out the west exit, it would make it possible to skip much of Yampi Desert and to put off parts of Alhafra until later, possibly skipping certain events such as the Briggs battle. Don't think anyone would take issue with that, though. But if a way is found to get out of the south exit... that would change everything. If the effect of walking on water is anything like what it is in that other glitch, it could be possible to reach Atteka before even setting foot onto Osenia, which could possibly give you the ship and a free pass into the Western Sea within the first half-hour of playing the game. I'm not sure exactly how large skips are defined (if there even is a consistent definition), but that would really raise questions.

But regarding current stuff, yeah, there doesn't seem to be anything any more game-breaking than what's already possible and accepted in, say, most Metroid games.

On another note, I was looking into that timer thing that was brought up earlier, about the half-second penalty for each save. Based on the way the rule is worded, it seems like that might be meant only for runs that have to be timed manually. Do you know whether or not that's the case? Certainly, it doesn't make any sense for the penalty to be applied to Golden Sun, since even though it's possible to save anywhere, it isn't free. Based on my testing in The Lost age, loading a file, then immediately saving and resetting with virtually no menu delay, when repeated 16 times when the ingame timer is at the start of a minute, advances it to the next minute. This indicates that each save already costs ~3 seconds minimum in time spent loading, possibly in saving, and in unavoidable menu time. Golden Sun might be a bit different, but I don't think it's different enough that saves cost less than half a second - might be worth testing, but only if this is an issue for games with ingame timers in the first place, since as noted earlier, it doesn't make sense to modify the time shown by the ingame timer unless it's unreliable, which Golden Sun's isn't. So any number of additional segments shouldn't be an issue as long as they don't negatively impact the final ingame time. Which probably wouldn't be an issue for Golden Sun, but it most likely is for The Lost Age; staying below 120 segments seems much less reasonable in the latter unless some bigger skips are found, just looking at the number of segments used for Golden Sun and the relative length between the two games.

So far, there doesn't seem to be anything questionable. Unless someone finds a way to drastically expand the implications of one of the forms of the glitch to use them in ways not currently foreseeable, it doesn't seem like there will ever be anything questionable in Golden Sun.

In The Lost Age, on the other hand, there's some potential for big skips. Particularly involving Gondowan Cliffs. If a way is found to save Retreat glitch out the west exit, it would make it possible to skip much of Yampi Desert and to put off parts of Alhafra until later, possibly skipping certain events such as the Briggs battle. Don't think anyone would take issue with that, though. But if a way is found to get out of the south exit... that would change everything. If the effect of walking on water is anything like what it is in that other glitch, it could be possible to reach Atteka before even setting foot onto Osenia, which could possibly give you the ship and a free pass into the Western Sea within the first half-hour of playing the game. I'm not sure exactly how large skips are defined (if there even is a consistent definition), but that would really raise questions.

But regarding current stuff, yeah, there doesn't seem to be anything any more game-breaking than what's already possible and accepted in, say, most Metroid games.

On another note, I was looking into that timer thing that was brought up earlier, about the half-second penalty for each save. Based on the way the rule is worded, it seems like that might be meant only for runs that have to be timed manually. Do you know whether or not that's the case?  Certainly, it doesn't make any sense for the penalty to be applied to Golden Sun, since even though it's possible to save anywhere, it isn't free. Based on my testing in The Lost age, loading a file, then immediately saving and resetting with virtually no menu delay, when repeated 16 times when the ingame timer is at the start of a minute, advances it to the next minute. This indicates that each save already costs ~3 seconds minimum in time spent loading, possibly in saving, and in unavoidable menu time. Golden Sun might be a bit different, but I don't think it's different enough that saves cost less than half a second - might be worth testing, but only if this is an issue for games with ingame timers in the first place, since as noted earlier, it doesn't make sense to modify the time shown by the ingame timer unless it's unreliable, which Golden Sun's isn't. So any number of additional segments shouldn't be an issue as long as they don't negatively impact the final ingame time. Which probably wouldn't be an issue for Golden Sun, but it most likely is for The Lost Age; staying below 120 segments seems much less reasonable in the latter unless some bigger skips are found, just looking at the number of segments used for Golden Sun and the relative length between the two games.

FlamingMage

2011-05-24 05:06:59 pm

I can see myself having 120 segments on the very outside range, depending on how often I have to save for the retreat glitch. I recall my practice having... actually, I'll go check.

Turns out I had 81. So 120 is conceivable, but unlikely.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-25 01:11:46 pm

2011-05-24 05:37:47 pm

I'd imagine that any time you'd find yourself using the save retreat glitch, you'd skip enough to at least make up for the extra save, if not remove another needed segment. At least, if you're planning ahead to make your saves based on when you'd need them to perform the glitch. There'll be a few things like that brief extra segment needed since you saved at the beginning of Sol Sanctum, but I can't see it possibly adding up to enough to add 40 segments, let alone make up for the segments that wouldn't be needed.

Then there's the matter of the door retreat glitch, which can skip segments without needing any extra saves. So I think below 120 segments for Golden Sun is certain, although I haven't tried speedrunning it to really know.

On the other hand, The Lost Age is almost twice as long. It has skips of its own, but that may not be enough to make make up for it. There's also the matter of content. I've been doing some practice runs of The Lost Age to get a feel for it, and I've been finding myself having an incredibly difficult time both getting away from monster battles and beating bosses even without an entirely minimalist run. I'm not sure how that compares to Golden Sun when played using near-minimalist methods, and things will probably change when Isaac's LV28 team joins with all their extra weapons and Djinn (I haven't gotten quite that far yet), but in the meantime, it could further increase the segments needed. As for whether or not that will outweigh the skips from the save retreat glitch once we find out what it can do in The Lost Age, we can only guess, though. So right now, The Lost Age needing over 120 segments seems highly plausible, but that might change.

Which begs the question of why I'm saying so much about this when my point was that it doesn't matter anyway.

Edit: Is there a way to reliably control a boss's actions throughout the battle? I've been fighting the King Scorpion in The Lost Age, and when I use a specific pattern of actions, the Scorpion's actions stay the same on the first three turns, but after that, it seems to start acting randomly regardless of what I do. Is there a way to prevent this? Some method of wasting or not wasting RNs later in the battle not involving actions?

I guess I'll need to bump a The Lost Age thread at some point, since I'm focusing on it, but I assume this is constant between the two games, so it doesn't really matter where.

I'd imagine that any time you'd find yourself using the save retreat glitch, you'd skip enough to at least make up for the extra save, if not remove another needed segment. At least, if you're planning ahead to make your saves based on when you'd need them to perform the glitch. There'll be a few things like that brief extra segment needed since you saved at the beginning of Sol Sanctum, but I can't see it possibly adding up to enough to add 40 segments, let alone make up for the segments that wouldn't be needed.

Then there's the matter of the door retreat glitch, which can skip segments without needing any extra saves. So I think below 120 segments for Golden Sun is certain, although I haven't tried speedrunning it to really know.

On the other hand, The Lost Age is almost twice as long. It has skips of its own, but that may not be enough to make make up for it. There's also the matter of content. I've been doing some practice runs of The Lost Age to get a feel for it, and I've been finding myself having an incredibly difficult time both getting away from monster battles and beating bosses even without an entirely minimalist run. I'm not sure how that compares to Golden Sun when played using near-minimalist methods, and things will probably change when Isaac's LV28 team joins with all their extra weapons and Djinn (I haven't gotten quite that far yet), but in the meantime, it could further increase the segments needed. As for whether or not that will outweigh the skips from the save retreat glitch once we find out what it can do in The Lost Age, we can only guess, though. So right now, The Lost Age needing over 120 segments seems highly plausible, but that might change.

Which begs the question of why I'm saying so much about this when my point was that it doesn't matter anyway.

Edit: Is there a way to reliably control a boss's actions throughout the battle? I've been fighting the King Scorpion in The Lost Age, and when I use a specific pattern of actions, the Scorpion's actions stay the same on the first three turns, but after that, it seems to start acting randomly regardless of what I do. Is there a way to prevent this? Some method of wasting or not wasting RNs later in the battle not involving actions?

I guess I'll need to bump a The Lost Age thread at some point, since I'm focusing on it, but I assume this is constant between the two games, so it doesn't really matter where.

FlamingMage

2011-05-25 01:37:07 pm

In golden sun, after a hard reset, battles should be totally predictable. There is some minor variance in who is targeted by single hit attacks (spinning beat comes to mind) but the move itself is utterly predictable in my experience.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-25 03:34:21 pm

2011-05-25 02:58:35 pm

I knew about the variation in targets. I'm curious how that happens while other randomness remains constant, but that wasn't really a concern.

So I decided to try the first six or so turns of the battle a few times to get some definite logs of variations between battles. The first time, even though my actions remained the same for the first four turns, the King Scorpion's actions began to diverge from what I was expecting based on some past battles with that strategy on turn 4, as with other times. I ended the battle at turn 6 and tried again. On the second attempt, however, all of its actions through turn 6 were the same as the previous attempt I had been taking notes on. I played another couple of turns before being screwed by its powerful physical moves. On the third attempt, its actions were again the same through turn 6 with my actions remaining the same, and only began to change when Sheba was downed (she was targeted by Twin Shear, rather than Felix like on previous attempts), forcing different actions.

So... I'm not sure what was going on before, but now, it seems to be working as expected. This is good news for my goal of manipulating the King Scorpion out of using its powerful boosted physical attacks, although doing so tends to cost speed. But I figure optimizing the battle can come later; this is just a test run, after all.

Edit: Wait, that can't be right. The number of RNs expended by an attack depends on how many characters are targeted. That's generally constant for the player characters when fighting a single boss, but if the boss has any moves that hit 3 or 5 targets, then whether they target a character on the edge or in the middle of the team would change the number of RNs. And if the targets of bosses' attacks are random, that means that randomness could sometimes cause changes later in the battle, unless the change in RNs is canceled by a corresponding change in strategy. At least, this it what it seems like should be true, and it would explain the differences with some of my attempts; on the three attempts that happened about the same way, the boss always used its multi-target attacks on characters on the edges, and my previous attempts tended to differ shortly after a multi-target attack was used. Do you have any observations that would support or contradict this?

What it wouldn't explain, though, is why the King Scorpion had been starting to get different attacks on the fourth turn even with my most recent strategy, which caused it to defend for the first three turns, meaning its targets couldn't have affected anything because it wasn't targeting anything. It also wouldn't explain why those problems suddenly disappeared. None of this seems relevant anymore, though, at least for now, so I'm not sure how important it would be to consider it.

I knew about the variation in targets. I'm curious how that happens while other randomness remains constant, but that wasn't really a concern.

So I decided to try the first six or so turns of the battle a few times to get some definite logs of variations between battles. The first time, even though my actions remained the same for the first four turns, the King Scorpion's actions began to diverge from what I was expecting based on some past battles with that strategy on turn 4, as with other times. I ended the battle at turn 6 and tried again. On the second attempt, however, all of its actions through turn 6 were the same as the previous attempt I had been taking notes on. I played another couple of turns before being screwed by its powerful physical moves. On the third attempt, its actions were again the same through turn 6 with my actions remaining the same, and only began to change when Sheba was downed (she was targeted by Twin Shear, rather than Felix like on previous attempts), forcing different actions.

So... I'm not sure what was going on before, but now, it seems to be working as expected. This is good news for my goal of manipulating the King Scorpion out of using its powerful boosted physical attacks, although doing so tends to cost speed. But I figure optimizing the battle can come later; this is just a test run, after all.

Edit: Wait, that can't be right. The number of RNs expended by an attack depends on how many characters are targeted. That's generally constant for the player characters when fighting a single boss, but if the boss has any moves that hit 3 or 5 targets, then whether they target a character on the edge or in the middle of the team would change the number of RNs. And if the targets of bosses' attacks are random, that means that randomness could sometimes cause changes later in the battle, unless the change in RNs is canceled by a corresponding change in strategy. At least, this it what it seems like should be true, and it would explain the differences with some of my attempts; on the three attempts that happened about the same way, the boss always used its multi-target attacks on characters on the edges, and my previous attempts tended to differ shortly after a multi-target attack was used. Do you have any observations that would support or contradict this?

What it wouldn't explain, though, is why the King Scorpion had been starting to get different attacks on the fourth turn even with my most recent strategy, which caused it to defend for the first three turns, meaning its targets couldn't have affected anything because it wasn't targeting anything. It also wouldn't explain why those problems suddenly disappeared. None of this seems relevant anymore, though, at least for now, so I'm not sure how important it would be to consider it.

LinkTheValiant

2011-05-25 07:24:44 pm

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce

First of all, TLA modifies its RNG based on how long it takes to press a button at the start and file select screens. Not sure whether that would affect anything, but it's something to be aware of.

I don't know what the precise RN values are for the King Scorpion's attacks, but I do know how it works for Psynergy. Essentially, any Psynergy that does damage or heals consumes two RN per target. Any Psynergy that buffs or debuffs consumes one RN per target. Any Psynergy that inflicts status ailments without dealing damage consumes one RN per target.

Djinn add another layer of complexity. Any Djinni that does straight damage with no extra effects consumes two RN. Healing Djinn consume two RN per target.

Basically, if you're seeing divergence after turn three without multi-target attacks being used, there's something going on we don't know about and you should consider doing some hacking to figure out just what. If the divergence happens after a multi-target attack that doesn't target all characters, then that's probably what's going on. One thing to remember is that the RNG that determines enemy attacks may be modified by time spent pressing buttons. (I don't know this, I'm just pulling out of thin air.) In this case it may be near-impossible for non-TASers to replicate battles consistently.

First of all, TLA modifies its RNG based on how long it takes to press a button at the start and file select screens. Not sure whether that would affect anything, but it's something to be aware of.

I don't know what the precise RN values are for the King Scorpion's attacks, but I do know how it works for Psynergy. Essentially, any Psynergy that does damage or heals consumes two RN per target. Any Psynergy that buffs or debuffs consumes one RN per target. Any Psynergy that inflicts status ailments without dealing damage consumes one RN per target.

Djinn add another layer of complexity. Any Djinni that does straight damage with no extra effects consumes two RN. Healing Djinn consume two RN per target.

Basically, if you're seeing divergence after turn three without multi-target attacks being used, there's something going on we don't know about and you should consider doing some hacking to figure out just what. If the divergence happens after a multi-target attack that doesn't target all characters, then that's probably what's going on. One thing to remember is that the RNG that determines enemy attacks may be modified by time spent pressing buttons. (I don't know this, I'm just pulling out of thin air.) In this case it may be near-impossible for non-TASers to replicate battles consistently.