Username:
B
I
U
S
"
url
img
#
code
sup
sub
font
size
color
smiley
embarassed
thumbsup
happy
Huh?
Angry
Roll Eyes
Undecided
Lips Sealed
Kiss
Cry
Grin
Wink
Tongue
Shocked
Cheesy
Smiley
Sad
page  <- 1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,  8,  9,  10,  11 -> <- 1 .. 5 .. 11 ->
--
--
List results:
Search options:
Use \ before commas in usernames
Flip
2010-11-02 02:25:06 pm
1-Up!
I guess I'm misunderstanding.  Why is wasting PP a factor in using Retreat?
pkGamerB
2010-11-02 02:34:51 pm
Agent PK
There's a glitch in the game where if you have Retreat shortcutted and try to use it with less than 6 PP, the next time you leave the area it'll sometimes take you to a completely different place (i.e. using it on most of the doors in Crossbone Isle takes you all the way back to Vale). Using the glitch on the same door will take you to the same place every time (with a few other little factors added in such as random encounters and saving). So basically, I'm looking for the fastest way to get under 6 PP.
FlamingMage
2010-11-02 02:44:35 pm
Frost is way faster than move, and not too bad to keep shortcutted. Douse is almost identical in casting time to frost, I never found which one is actually faster. 
Flip
2010-11-02 05:35:30 pm
1-Up!
Quote from pkGamerB:
There's a glitch in the game where if you have Retreat shortcutted and try to use it with less than 6 PP, the next time you leave the area it'll sometimes take you to a completely different place (i.e. using it on most of the doors in Crossbone Isle takes you all the way back to Vale). Using the glitch on the same door will take you to the same place every time (with a few other little factors added in such as random encounters and saving). So basically, I'm looking for the fastest way to get under 6 PP.

That's awesome.  I'm not sure how the existence of that glitch passed me by.
pkGamerB
pkGamerB
Edit history:
pkGamerB: 2011-05-14 02:38:17 pm
2011-05-14 02:37:17 pm
Agent PK
Well, after another long hiatus, I'm getting really close to finishing my best practice 100% run so far (again, pardon the bump). I'm sitting at 4:12 at the very end of the Lighthouse Ruins. The one thing I'm not really satisfied with is my Saturos/Menardi and Fusion Dragon strategies (I beat them in 5 and 9 rounds, respectively), so I was wondering if anyone could give me any helpful input on them. I basically used slight variations of the ones mike89 posted earlier in the thread, tweaked a bit since I'll have all 28 Djinn. But without further ado:

Saturos and Menardi
Djinn Setup
Ivan:  Fever, Corona, Scorch, Ember, Flash, Torch, Kite; All standby except Corona, Flash, and Kite
Isaac: Flint, Granite, Quartz, Vine, Sap, Bane, Forge; All standby except Granite and Forge (make sure Vine resets second)
Garet: Fizz, Sleet, Mist, Spritz, Hail, Tonic, Dew;  All standby except Fizz (make sure Spritz resets first)
Mia: Ground, Gust, Breeze, Zephyr, Smog, Squall, Luff; All standby except Ground and Breeze

Turn 1:
Mia unleashes Ground - Saturos
Menardi casts Fiery Blast - Isaac, Garet, Mia
Saturos is unable to move
Ivan summons Thor - Saturos (638/638; 461/461)
Isaac summons Judgement - Saturos (687/1325; 391/852)
Garet summons Boreas - Menardi (442/1767; 577/1429)

Turn 2:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Menardi casts Flare Storm - Garet, Mia
Saturos uses Heat Flash - Garet
Mia summons Meteor - Saturos (305/2072; 196/1625)
Isaac unleashes Forge
Garet unleashes Fizz - Mia
(Djinn Reset: Gust - Mia; Spritz - Garet;  Flint - Isaac)

Turn 3:
Flash is set to Ivan
Isaac unleashes Granite
Menardi casts Impact - Saturos
Saturos casts Inferno
Mia casts Prism - Menardi (36/2108; 49/1674)
Garet unleashes Spritz
(Reset: Ember - Ivan; Zephyr - Mia; Sleet - Garet; Vine - Isaac)

Turn 4:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Menardi uses Death Size - Mia
Saturos uses Heat Flash - Garet
Mia casts Prism - Menardi (36/2144; 49/1723)
Isaac unleashes Vine
Garet casts Cutting Edge - Menardi (119/1842)
(Reset: Torch - Ivan; Smog - Mia; Mist - Garet; Quartz - Isaac)

Turn 5:
Flash is set to Ivan
Mia summons Boreas - Menardi (486/2630; 640/2482)
Menardi casts Flare Storm - Garet, Mia
Isaac summons Judgement - Menardi (631/3261; 752/3234)
END BATTLE


Fusion Dragon
Djinn Status
Ivan - Scorch in recovery
Isaac - Bane, Granite, Vine in recovery, Forge on standby
Garet - Tonic, Dew, Fizz, Spritz in recovery
Mia - Ground in recovery, Luff on standby

Turn 1:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Mia casts Wish
Isaac unleashes Sap (113/113)
Fusion Dragon uses Dragon Driver
Garet unleashes Mist (62/175)
(Reset: Tonic - Garet; Bane - Isaac; Scorch - Ivan; Ground - Mia)

Turn 2:
Flash is set to Ivan
Mia casts Wish
Fusion Dragon uses Drain Fang (no effect)
Isaac unleashes Bane (124/299)
Fusion Dragon attacks - Ivan
Garet unleashes Hail (88/387)
(Reset: Dew - Garet; Granite - Isaac)

Turn 3:
Isaac unleashes Granite
Ivan unleashes Kite (Mia)
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Mia casts Wish
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Garet unleashes Sleet (74/461)
(Reset: Fizz - Garet; Vine - Isaac)

Turn 4: (Note: Ground has priority over Wish, so make sure to select Wish, THEN Ground for Mia. Also allows Isaac to summon Judgement in the same turn)
Ivan unleashes Flash
Mia unleashes Ground
Fusion Dragon is unable to move
Mia casts Wish
Isaac summons Judgement (889/1350)
Fusion Dragon uses Drain Fang - Ivan
Garet unleashes Fizz - Whomever needs it most
(Reset: Spritz - Garet)

Turn 5:
Flash is set to Ivan
Fusion Dragon casts Break
Mia casts Wish
Isaac unleashes Flint (91/1441)
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Garet unleashes Spritz
(Reset: Sap - Isaac; Ground - Mia)

Turn 6:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Mia summons Boreas (972/2413)
Isaac unleashes Sap (110/2523)
Fusion Dragon uses Dragon Driver
Garet unleashes Tonic
(Reset: Bane - Isaac)

Turn 7:
Mia unleashes Ground
Flash is set to Ivan
Fusion Dragon is unable to move
Isaac unleashes Bane (123/2646)
Fusion Dragon uses Outer Space
Garet casts Cutting Edge (64/2710)
(Reset: Mist - Garet; Granite - Isaac)

Turn 8:
Ivan unleashes Flash
Fusion Dragon uses Severe Blow - Ivan
Mia casts Wish
Isaac unleashes Vine
Fusion Dragon attacks - Isaac
Garet unleashes Mist (58/2768)
(Reset: Hail - Garet)

Turn 9:
Mia summons Neptune (934/3702)
Ivan summons Atalanta (373/4075)
Isaac summons Judgement (867/4942)
***Sometimes I get lucky and FD doesn't use Break on turn 5, and the fight ends here
Fusion Dragon uses Dragon Driver
Garet summons Kirin (233/5175)
END BATTLE


And that's it. It's a pretty reliable strategy, as long as Fusion Dragon doesn't use Break after Turn 6 (it weakens Mia's second Boreas and I fall a few hundred damage short of killing it) or kill anyone with Outer Space. I just wonder if it's possible to shave a turn or two off of that fight.

Other than that though, my projected time for this current run is about 4:39 - 4:41. Sub 4:30 would be nice, but I'm not sure how much more I'll be able to improve my route, aside from slightly better execution. I've been considering skipping the two Feathered Robes to save myself about two more minutes, but I'm not sure how the loss of 30 Agility for both Ivan and Mia would affect my strategy (not to mention losing about 40 Defense for my two most frail party members as well). Level wise, I'd probably be fine though, since I'm at 18/17/17/18 going into it, and Isaac's the only one who'd lose a level without the EXP from the Sirens. At the very least, I'll shoot for about 4:35, give or take a minute or two. Any feedback is appreciated.
FlamingMage
FlamingMage
Edit history:
FlamingMage: 2012-12-18 06:53:18 pm
FlamingMage: 2012-12-18 06:53:17 pm
2011-05-14 02:53:09 pm
Yours is segmented, right? We could totally try to synch up our segments so we can keep each other in pace and share all the route stuff Tongue So long as you're okay with that, I don't mind beginning to record soon (tonight?) We're not really competing for anything imo, since we're in different categories.

I've heard its possible to successfully run from all three tutorial battles, but never accomplished it myself. Can anyone confirm it is possible? I would love to get a 3runs + 1shot against the mysterious duo segment. I want to push 3:45 with my run :O
pkGamerB
pkGamerB
Edit history:
pkGamerB: 2011-05-14 03:12:08 pm
2011-05-14 03:11:34 pm
Agent PK
Yep, I'm going segmented as well. I definitely wouldn't mind synching up our segments, we could probably both learn some things from each other. Aside from me making minor detours for Djinn, our runs are actually fairly similar up until leaving Tolbi, since I have to backtrack to Vale.

I never even thought about running from the tutorial battles, but apparently it is possible! I just tried it. I saved and hard-reset right after each one like I would for any other battle. I did end up getting into a 4th battle, but I ran from that too. It requires four extremely short segments, but it does work. Can't believe I never thought of that.
FlamingMage
2011-05-14 03:25:43 pm
I think you can run from all three in one segment, that's what I'm trying for Tongue
pkGamerB
pkGamerB
Edit history:
pkGamerB: 2011-05-14 03:42:40 pm
pkGamerB: 2011-05-14 03:42:01 pm
pkGamerB: 2011-05-14 03:41:34 pm
pkGamerB: 2011-05-14 03:39:37 pm
2011-05-14 03:38:59 pm
Agent PK
Ah, my mistake. xD

Well, apparently that's possible as well. It only worked once out of like six tries, but I was able to run from all of the battles on the first try just now (was there always a fourth battle or am I unlucky/forgetful?)

That brings me to another question though. Would it be frowned upon if I used a lot of really short segments (like a minute or less for some of them) to avoid random battles? I haven't been doing it so far, but it would certainly save time compared to trying to run and failing or having everyone defend for a turn to get a successful escape.
FlamingMage
2011-05-14 04:07:37 pm
There's a half second save penalty for every segment, but other then that no. Some of the PC runs are ludicrously segmented. Obviously some people prefer SS or very long segments, but its a personal preference thing, not a rule.
mike89
2011-05-14 04:20:12 pm
SEGA Junkie
For a game like this that only times to the minute, the half second penalty wouldn't even come into play until you used something like 120 segments. And even then, saying your run is, let's say, 4:35 when the game timer shows 4:34? That'd be a bit strange.
pkGamerB
pkGamerB
Edit history:
pkGamerB: 2011-05-14 04:54:13 pm
2011-05-14 04:53:54 pm
Agent PK
That clears things up a lot, thanks. I'll incorporate that into my (hopefully final) practice run and see if I can't save myself another two or three minutes that way. After that, all that's left is for me to get my recording stuff together and record my real run. I've been reading through the Knowledge Base for what all I'll need, but it feels like I'm reading a different language. Tongue
FlamingMage
2011-05-14 06:25:55 pm
The penalty's description in the rules is sort of ambiguous, and it claims that the penalty only applies to games where you can save "anywhere" (As far as I remember at least) 

This is obviously not the most clear wording because very few games allow you to save actually anywhere, but honestly, half a second isn't enough to make a new segment a bad idea except in bizarre special cases. I think that GS does get the penalty, even though you can't save in battles, but I'm honestly unconcerned with it, and the in-game timer rule might override it.
Manocheese
2011-05-14 07:02:45 pm
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
Unfortunately, the rule has always been worded poorly. What it actually means is that the penalty will be applied if a game lets you save anywhere and load at the same place. So, the penalty would be applied for GS. Like mike89 said, though, you'd need to save and load 120 times for it to make a difference, so don't worry about it.
wersterlobe
2011-05-14 08:12:49 pm
Golden Sun is a game I've always been interested in speed running, but if I ever do run either of them it'll probable be The Lost Age. Also the only category I'd even think about doing is 100% Single Segment. While I'm on that point, I did a test run of Golden Sun 1 for 100% single segment (That is, it had a few saves here and there while I was testing things, but it was played as a single segment run would be, no warps, no battle manipulation etc) and my run came in at 4:32, at levels of 23/22/22/22 (because I don't run from things <_<). I wrote a 25 page guideline of pretty much exactly what I was doing, if someone wants it I suppose I could give it to them?
FlamingMage
2011-05-14 09:51:34 pm
I think we'd all be interested in seeing it, but if you never run from battles I'm extraordinarily skeptical that your time is correct. I would be delighted to be proven wrong though Wink
wersterlobe
2011-05-14 11:22:42 pm
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9C4ZJE90

Hopefully that works. And I assure you that was the final time, it's got checkpoint times at various points in the run also.
FlamingMage
FlamingMage
Edit history:
FlamingMage: 2011-05-16 06:08:51 pm
FlamingMage: 2011-05-15 08:54:37 pm
2011-05-15 08:42:17 pm
I'll look at that in depth when I get some time Smiley Thanks.


I can confirm that it is possible to run from all 4 battles first try...1/63 of the time. Interestingly, the time it worked was after I had ran from the first two successfully, then accidentally opened the status menu before selecting run in the third battle. Can anyone with an emulator check if that changes any values associated with the rng? I know that "re-attacking" (that is, selecting then canceling an attack) can be used to manipulate level up points, so maybe the status menu affects run rate...

EDIT: Tried it again and it worked, then tried it again and it failed. Dunno what's going on Tongue

RE-EDIT: Okay, just got 4 runs without using the menu. That was such a beautiful segment but I botched it in the home stretch. Lame Tongue
FlamingMage
2011-05-21 05:16:06 pm
Got my segment 1. I'll commentate and upload it tonight. :13 obviously, almost perfect (finally!) Just some awkward movement for a fraction of a second. I'm done with this one though Wink
kirkq
2011-05-21 08:37:52 pm
Die Hard 2013.
Personally I think you would be better off understanding the underlying mechanics of the battle system before you set off on a run.  Knowing just how random running actually is can help you plan much better in the long run.  VBA is a really well supported emulator for disassembly and analysis. 

What category is your run aiming for again?  Are you even planning on submitting it?  I'll probably be following this since I plan to do TAS work with this game in the distant future.  I don't have the motivation to disassemble this along your timeline though.
TheOthin
2011-05-21 10:20:10 pm
Quote from kirkq:
Personally I think you would be better off understanding the underlying mechanics of the battle system before you set off on a run.  Knowing just how random running actually is can help you plan much better in the long run.  VBA is a really well supported emulator for disassembly and analysis. 

What category is your run aiming for again?  Are you even planning on submitting it?  I'll probably be following this since I plan to do TAS work with this game in the distant future.  I don't have the motivation to disassemble this along your timeline though.

Indeed, there is considerably more information that can be used for such a speedrun, such as how it appears that you've managed to find ways to save considerable amounts of time using the Save Retreat glitch on just about every dungeon where you've tried it.

Would you be willing to share the details on this information you've been finding so that it can be used for the benefit of all Golden Sun players? As great as it would be if everyone could experiment with an emulator so as to find out everything themselves, that's not feasible to support a large community with ideas from great numbers of people.
kirkq
2011-05-21 10:33:37 pm
Die Hard 2013.
I never disassembled the battle system, though I am capable of it with a lot of time spent.  I'm not hiding anything, I'm just lazy.  I never really found out exactly what causes out of bounds doors or where they will lead.  I also probably won't be looking at these mechanics much until the distant future.

I've posted most of what I've done so far here:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3409&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40
TheOthin
2011-05-22 07:46:10 am
Quote from kirkq:
I never disassembled the battle system, though I am capable of it with a lot of time spent.  I'm not hiding anything, I'm just lazy.  I never really found out exactly what causes out of bounds doors or where they will lead.  I also probably won't be looking at these mechanics much until the distant future.

I've posted most of what I've done so far here:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3409&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

I know you haven't found everything, but you've found a lot of things that would be incredibly useful on any speedrun. However, in that topic, you don't give a detailed explanation of how to find the secret doors you seem to know how to find, and when I asked you on YouTube, you just told me to use your script and find them myself. I know you're not hiding anything, but you haven't been contributing what you could, either.

It seems that you were unwilling to spend the time to write such a guide for the benefit of just one person. However, anything you share here will surely be learned by many players that could use your tricks, by many means.
FlamingMage
FlamingMage
Edit history:
FlamingMage: 2011-05-22 08:27:51 am
2011-05-22 07:49:21 am
I found that the menus do not appear to affect the RNG, kirkq. I'm pretty confident in that fact.

Is VBA user friendly and mac compatible without a bootcamp equivalent?


Also, segment 1: 


The next few are quite easy, expect them pretty soon.

EDIT: Kirq...you realize those retreat glitch applications you found totally void huge chunks of my route Sad
Angelmark
2011-05-22 09:49:12 am
The Anomaly
Awesome, I have a very good feeling about this run. You really seem to know what you're doing and the commentary was informative and pleasant to listen to.

Keep it up. Smiley