Golden Sun (Sub 4 Hours????)

Edit history:

FlamingMage: 2010-01-24 01:32:39 pm

2009-12-26 03:48:46 pm

YES, I know there are already GS threads. This is a little different, and since the main GS1 thread has fallen into GS:TLA discussion, I think this is justified.

I'm interested in a two-game speedrun. That is, some one running the first game, and then the second game, using their transfered party from the first. I think this would open up some possibilities for planning djinn/items that you acquire in the first game purely to use in the second. My only worry is that those elements would be so negligible that both game's runs would suffer. I may end up running this, or someone else could.

Discuss.

EDIT: this has become a regular speedrun of GS1. Feel free to scroll down for the details. :EDIT

Thread title:

ZenicReverie

2009-12-27 07:24:13 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I didn't know you could transfer information between two GBA games like that. Do you need two GBAs and a link cable or something?

There really isn't a place for this at SDA since if you're loading any information into a game it'll be listed as NG+, and you might as well max out everything if it's NG+.

I'm pretty sure this idea has been brought up before, especially with the .hack games. Good luck with it though if you plan on doing it.

Kabuto

2009-12-28 04:53:32 am

Quote from ZenicReverie:

I didn't know you could transfer information between two GBA games like that. Do you need two GBAs and a link cable or something?

Either that, or do that manually (GS1 shows 260 seemingly random characters, containing uppercase, lowercase, digits and even special characters, which you have to type into GS2).

Quote from ZenicReverie:

There really isn't a place for this at SDA since if you're loading any information into a game it'll be listed as NG+, and you might as well max out everything if it's NG+.

I guess this, as a very special case, will create another category. Ask Mikwuyma to be sure.

Elpis_TK31

2009-12-29 10:35:39 am

PAL 50Hz KILL ME NOW

GS2's NG+ should be maxxed out chars then select easy mode (characters keep their levels) and
transferred 99 party for GS1 with ideal item setup...right? I'm just asking to be sure.

FlamingMage

2009-12-29 12:19:01 pm

Well, yes, obviously. What I'm asking about is wether or not a speed run spanning both games, transferring an under-leveled and under-equipped party from GS1 into GS2, would be accepted. If its too much of a special case I'll just run them independently. Depends on if the admins decide its worth a special case, which, in all honesty, it probably isn't.

Just got a GS1 file up to Master Hama (learned reveal) at 2:06. It could probably be 1:58 with perfect optimization.

Elpis_TK31

2009-12-29 12:25:48 pm

PAL 50Hz KILL ME NOW

I don't even remeber what my time was @ master Hama >.>
What's your best game completion time? mine's 5:36 LV20 wich I got a year ago.

I honestly haven't checked running GS2 tho, somehow 2 doesn't do it for me like 1.

FlamingMage

2009-12-29 07:42:57 pm

Yeah, me neither.

I haven't finished yet, but I would be horrified at worse than 4:30 at the Venus Aerie. Now, beating the dragon with that party is a whole different matter...

yoshmaster5

2009-12-31 11:04:42 am

Also tenkiforecast

Quote from FlamingMage:

Yeah, me neither.

I haven't finished yet, but I would be horrified at worse than 4:30 at the Venus Aerie. Now, beating the dragon with that party is a whole different matter...

Small detours to get Flash and Granite. Simple as that... those two djinn break the game.

FlamingMage

2010-01-22 02:07:24 pm

New times indicate a time of roughly 2:30 after landing in the Tolbi Docks. My unoptimized run got there is 2:39...

My levels are 11/11/11/13 and I have 4/4/3/3 Djinn. After I've finished this run, I'll go back through and try to cut out armor shopping/stat-boost collecting. I want to get this done as fast as possible.

FlamingMage

2010-01-24 01:43:06 pm

Double post for bump. GS is a more popular game than this...

Is sub 4:00 possible? Probably not. I have a 3:19 file saved at Suhalla Gate, though, so Sub 4:20 shouldn't be too hard. The previous "best run" in the previous GS thread had the following times:

Elemental Star Room 0:25
World Map(after Vale) 0:43
Bilibin 1:01
Defeated Tret 1:21
Defeated Saturos 1:45
Defeated Killer Ape 2:06
Defeated Kraken 3:04
Suhalla Gate 3:57
Venus Lighthouse(before Aerie) 4:24

So...logically, if our endgame takes the same amount of time, I'll get to the pre-aerie stage at 3:46...Plus, my current run is far from perfect. Although the route is optimal, (I think) the game playing is not--I suck at menus and button-mashing, so I can probably save five or six minutes just from faster menus, battles, and psyenergy selection.

A few questions for any supporters:

What is the fastest set-up for Isaac to beat Colosso? I ran him with five venus and it went okay, but if the gladiators are sleep-able than maybe Mist is the way to go, with a mercury set up. Any thoughts? My djinn at the time are 5/5/4/4

Also, as it is, I'll probably fight Fusion Dragon with a party < lv 15. Is this possible? Like, at all? I'm only missing a few djinn, I should have 5/7/5/5 at the final. I guess I could RNG myself some super gear and also farm exp at the same time, but will that alone be able to support me? I'm sure as hell going to try, but those are awfully low levels.

Double post for bump. GS is a more popular game than this...

Is sub 4:00 possible? Probably not. I have a 3:19 file saved at Suhalla Gate, though, so Sub 4:20 shouldn't be too hard. The previous "best run" in the previous GS thread had the following times:

Elemental Star Room 0:25
World Map(after Vale) 0:43
Bilibin 1:01
Defeated Tret 1:21
Defeated Saturos 1:45
Defeated Killer Ape 2:06
Defeated Kraken 3:04
Suhalla Gate 3:57
Venus Lighthouse(before Aerie) 4:24

So...logically, if our endgame takes the same amount of time, I'll get to the pre-aerie stage at 3:46...Plus, my current run is far from perfect. Although the route is optimal, (I think) the game playing is not--I suck at menus and button-mashing, so I can probably save five or six minutes just from faster menus, battles, and psyenergy selection.

A few questions for any supporters:

What is the fastest set-up for Isaac to beat Colosso? I ran him with five venus and it went okay, but if the gladiators are sleep-able than maybe Mist is the way to go, with a mercury set up. Any thoughts? My djinn at the time are 5/5/4/4

Also, as it is, I'll probably fight Fusion Dragon with a party < lv 15. Is this possible? Like, at all? I'm only missing a few djinn, I should have 5/7/5/5 at the final. I guess I could RNG myself some super gear and also farm exp at the same time, but will that alone be able to support me? I'm sure as hell going to try, but those are awfully low levels.

DoubleThink

2010-01-24 09:37:29 pm

There's a word for that

Unless I'm missing about how the RNG in this game works, shouldn't it be possible to completely plan battles out beforehand? If that works out, further time could be saved by not-getting more of the out-of-the-way Djinn.

FlamingMage

2010-01-25 01:51:11 pm

Well, yes and no. Some things are plan-able, some are not.

The things that come to mind as being "bad" unpredictable aren't very numerous, but they do need to be considered;

For one, although it is possible with 100% certainty to predict what move bosses will use each turn, (after a hard reset, given that your actions are the same), some moves can target different people. Spinning beat comes to mind. My current Kraken strategy relies on it hitting Isaac; I've also see it hit Ivan and Mia in that same time slot. Other moves can also do this, I just don't remember which right now Lips Sealed

Also, I haven't found a way to always run from enemies. It seems like the amount of turns you fail is pre-set, but by unattacking (that is, selecting moves and then exiting back to the "flee" option) you can change what the enemy does during those turns. I plan to test this more, but where I am now enemies can two-shot my party, so testing things at this point is somewhat difficult.

I don't really go very out of the way to get many of the djinn. The only ones I could forsee skipping are Quartz, Ember, and Hail. I may try that in my next test run, but honestly, I'm pretty sure that Fusion will one-shot anyone on my team unless I keep a constant djinn shield, so I don't mind spending 1:00 or so to get a decent stat boost.

The difficulty with preplanning battles comes from the fact that so few possible paths are successful, none the less fast. Needless to say, I'm going to try, but no promises on miraculous strings of misses/crits.

Well, yes and no. Some things are plan-able, some are not.

The things that come to mind as being "bad" unpredictable aren't very numerous, but they do need to be considered;

For one, although it is possible with 100% certainty to predict what move bosses will use each turn, (after a hard reset, given that your actions are the same), some moves can target different people. Spinning beat comes to mind. My current Kraken strategy relies on it hitting Isaac; I've also see it hit Ivan and Mia in that same time slot. Other moves can also do this, I just don't remember which right now :-X

Also, I haven't found a way to always run from enemies. It seems like the amount of turns you fail is pre-set, but by unattacking (that is, selecting moves and then exiting back to the "flee" option) you can change what the enemy does during those turns. I plan to test this more, but where I am now enemies can two-shot my party, so testing things at this point is somewhat difficult.

I don't really go very out of the way to get many of the djinn. The only ones I could forsee skipping are Quartz, Ember, and Hail. I may try that in my next test run, but honestly, I'm pretty sure that Fusion will one-shot anyone on my team unless I keep a constant djinn shield, so I don't mind spending 1:00 or so to get a decent stat boost.

The difficulty with preplanning battles comes from the fact that so few possible paths are successful, none the less fast. Needless to say, I'm going to try, but no promises on miraculous strings of misses/crits.

Serris

2010-01-25 02:30:17 pm

You always flee successfully from the first encounter after a hard reset (at least in GS2, but 1 should be the same).

FlamingMage

2010-01-25 03:14:09 pm

Yeah, I know, but I would prefer to not have a million segments. I'm aiming for the 25/35 range, but I don't have any real figures yet...

Manocheese

2010-01-25 03:26:33 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Have you found any uses for Retreat warping? I haven't played with it very much in the first game, but I found that it's useless in Sol Sanctum (which is too bad, because it might have saved a ton of time). It can save some time in Mercury Lighthouse. Here's an explanation of it:

http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,8737.15.html

Serris

2010-01-25 03:43:15 pm

Why are you aiming for a specific number of segments? Just use as many as you need. I don't see any way around having a lot of "load -> encounter -> flee -> save" segments. In later parts of the run, you'll probably have a hard time fleeing from encounters at all without the reset trick. Saving is quick, so it should always be faster unless you manage to get a first try escape without the trick.

FlamingMage

2010-01-25 03:55:18 pm

As I stated, the number of segments isn't definite yet. But since I have run through 4/5 of the game in conditions very similar to my final team build, I think that my estimate on needed segments is pretty close.

I retreat-warp in ML and in Altin; using it in Altin allows me to skip straight from after the second living statue to the back of Altin pass, where Hsu is trapped. Yes, that's right. I never get lift in my run. Not like it's necessary unless you plan on backtracking Tongue

So yes, I am save warping. Unfortunently, every other area is beneficial-warp free. <--(not strictly true. You can warp at the very end of Lamaken desert, skipping the Manticore. However, seeing as I don't have any problems with Manti, he's very exp-efficient, and the warp-exit is back by Vale, I decided not to use it. If I can beat Fusion easily, however, than I will definitely skip him in the final version.)

mike89

2010-01-26 05:05:09 am

SEGA Junkie

I had a very efficient strategy for the Fusion Dragon way back. I wasn't very efficient at anything else Tongue

given my time came in over five hours, but I do remember having something set in stone for this in particular.

Here's how I did both fights:

BOSS BATTLE: SATUROS AND MENARDI
Djinn setup: Isaac – 4 Venus, 1 Mars [Forge], three Venus on standby, Granite set
Garet – 6 Mercury, Fizz set, rest on standby such that Spritz comes back first
Ivan – 6 Mars, including Flash, 4 on standby, Flash set
Mia – 1 Venus [Ground], 5 Jupiter, 4 Jupiter on standby
Turn 1: Isaac summons Judgment [targeting Saturos], Garet summons Boreas [targeting Menardi], Ivan summons Thor [targeting Saturos], Mia uses Ground on Saturos
Turn 2: Isaac uses Forge, Garet uses Fizz on Mia, Ivan unleashes Flash, Mia summons Meteor [targeting Saturos]
Turn 3: Isaac uses Granite, Garet uses Spritz, Ivan sets Flash, Mia does whatever (Psynergy or attack)
Turn 4: Isaac uses Vine, Garet uses Sleet, Ivan uses Flash, Mia does whatever
Turn 5: Isaac uses Flint, Garet summons Boreas [targeting Saturos], Ivan sets Flash, Mia uses Wish (she now has four Jupiter Djinn set)
Turn 6: Ivan uses Cybele – both should fall.

BOSS BATTLE: FUSION DRAGON
Another cutscene splits these two fights, meaning you lose all your attack bonuses and don’t get to reset Djinn
At the start of the fight, only Forge should be on standby. Everything else should be set or in recovery
Turn 1: Isaac does whatever, Garet uses Mist, Ivan uses Flash, Mia uses Wish
Turn 2: Isaac uses Granite, Garet uses Hail, Ivan sets Flash, Mia uses Wish
Turn 3: Isaac uses Vine, Garet uses Fizz (doesn’t matter on who), Ivan uses Flash, Mia uses Wish
Turn 4: Isaac uses Flint, Garet uses Spritz, Ivan sets Flash, Mia uses Ground
Turn 5: Isaac summons Judgment, Garet uses Sleet, Ivan uses Flash, Mia summons Boreas
Repeat until Judgment and Boreas are available again. This should be enough to fell the Fusion Dragon.

If, for example, you could wipe one turn off the Saturos/Menardi fight that would be great.

Also of note is that summon damage is not based on your characters' stats, but enemy HP, so level shouldn't be a major factor.

I had a very efficient strategy for the Fusion Dragon way back. I wasn't very efficient at anything else :P given my time came in over five hours, but I do remember having something set in stone for this in particular.

Here's how I did both fights:

[b]BOSS BATTLE: SATUROS AND MENARDI[/b]
Djinn setup: Isaac – 4 Venus, 1 Mars [Forge], three Venus on standby, Granite set
Garet – 6 Mercury, Fizz set, rest on standby such that Spritz comes back first
Ivan – 6 Mars, including Flash, 4 on standby, Flash set
Mia – 1 Venus [Ground], 5 Jupiter, 4 Jupiter on standby
Turn 1: Isaac summons Judgment [targeting Saturos], Garet summons Boreas [targeting Menardi], Ivan summons Thor [targeting Saturos], Mia uses Ground on Saturos
Turn 2: Isaac uses Forge, Garet uses Fizz on Mia, Ivan unleashes Flash, Mia summons Meteor [targeting Saturos]
Turn 3: Isaac uses Granite, Garet uses Spritz, Ivan sets Flash, Mia does whatever (Psynergy or attack)
Turn 4: Isaac uses Vine, Garet uses Sleet, Ivan uses Flash, Mia does whatever
Turn 5: Isaac uses Flint, Garet summons Boreas [targeting Saturos], Ivan sets Flash, Mia uses Wish (she now has four Jupiter Djinn set)
Turn 6: Ivan uses Cybele – both should fall.

[b]BOSS BATTLE: FUSION DRAGON[/b]
Another cutscene splits these two fights, meaning you lose all your attack bonuses and don’t get to reset Djinn
At the start of the fight, only Forge should be on standby. Everything else should be set or in recovery
Turn 1: Isaac does whatever, Garet uses Mist, Ivan uses Flash, Mia uses Wish
Turn 2: Isaac uses Granite, Garet uses Hail, Ivan sets Flash, Mia uses Wish
Turn 3: Isaac uses Vine, Garet uses Fizz (doesn’t matter on who), Ivan uses Flash, Mia uses Wish
Turn 4: Isaac uses Flint, Garet uses Spritz, Ivan sets Flash, Mia uses Ground
Turn 5: Isaac summons Judgment, Garet uses Sleet, Ivan uses Flash, Mia summons Boreas
Repeat until Judgment and Boreas are available again. This should be enough to fell the Fusion Dragon.

If, for example, you could wipe one turn off the Saturos/Menardi fight that would be great.

Also of note is that summon damage is not based on your characters' stats, but enemy HP, so level shouldn't be a major factor.

FlamingMage

2010-01-26 05:14:18 am

Nice strats Smiley

I am curious how Mia used wish when her only djinn are jupiter; does that class give her wish? I'm terrible at memorizing classes.

mike89

2010-01-26 05:47:22 am

SEGA Junkie

Yeah, but as with Mercury Djinn, she needs four for Wish to become active.

LinkTheValiant

2010-01-26 04:38:15 pm

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce

Colosso is probably done best with a simple Earth summon rush. Sleep takes one round to activate, followed by at least three rounds to KO. A summon rush followed by Psynergy should KO in three rounds rather than four. The only advantage to using Sleep is canceling the gladiators' attack animations, and since these animations are under two seconds apiece, there would be no time saved. The animations for Judgement and Sleep are approximately equivalent if you cancel Judgement, so unless I'm really missing something here, summon rushing is the way to go.

Also, refresh my memory here. It's been a while since Golden Sun has been discussed seriously. Why not clear Mercury Lighthouse before defeating Tret? I know that levels and equipment are a consideration, but is it truly impossible to defeat Saturos without the levels gained from Tret? I'm just seeing the backtracking to and from the tower and cringing. There is no requirement that you defeat Tret first, and the Empty Bottle is obtained in Imil.

As to planning out battles, it doesn't really work that way. Hit rate is so high that manipulating a string of misses/inactions as was done in Lufia 2 can't be done practically. Not to mention that the only things that can miss are normal physical attacks and status effects. Damage Psynergy and damaging Djinn unleashes always hit. Criticals could theoretically be manipulated, but here again I can't see the party using many normal physical attacks. The only thing you're really going to manipulate is whether or not one or two specific attacks come up in a battle near the beginning. For instance, you might possibly manipulate for Delude on the Manticore's first few turns.

Colosso is probably done best with a simple Earth summon rush. Sleep takes one round to activate, followed by at least three rounds to KO. A summon rush followed by Psynergy should KO in three rounds rather than four. The only advantage to using Sleep is canceling the gladiators' attack animations, and since these animations are under two seconds apiece, there would be no time saved. The animations for Judgement and Sleep are approximately equivalent if you cancel Judgement, so unless I'm really missing something here, summon rushing is the way to go.

Also, refresh my memory here. It's been a while since Golden Sun has been discussed seriously. Why not clear Mercury Lighthouse before defeating Tret? I know that levels and equipment are a consideration, but is it truly impossible to defeat Saturos without the levels gained from Tret? I'm just seeing the backtracking to and from the tower and cringing. There is no requirement that you defeat Tret first, and the Empty Bottle is obtained in Imil.

As to planning out battles, it doesn't really work that way. Hit rate is so high that manipulating a string of misses/inactions as was done in Lufia 2 can't be done practically. Not to mention that the only things that can miss are normal physical attacks and status effects. Damage Psynergy and damaging Djinn unleashes always hit. Criticals could theoretically be manipulated, but here again I can't see the party using many normal physical attacks. The only thing you're really going to manipulate is whether or not one or two specific attacks come up in a battle near the beginning. For instance, you might possibly manipulate for Delude on the Manticore's first few turns.

FlamingMage

2010-01-26 05:32:38 pm

I don't do Tret first. doing so is ridiculous in every conceivable way. Instead, I RNG nine sirens in the lighthouse for high EXP and Crystal Powder. With 9 CP, Saturos falls to a severely under leveled party, no other random fights necessary.

Also, Link, most of what you said is quite accurate and a good response to the prior posts. However, one tidbit is incorrect; it is possible to manipulate every one of the boss's actions/your crits/status effects. However, it is not possible to lock the boss into a perpetual string of misses, even if you could find a convoluted and unproductive path to force him to only normal attack. This is because, although every move can be changed, the number of possible variations is limited. Like most old RN generators, your actions merely add to the RN, so the max number you can add is always a known value, and will often not be enough to get to the next RN which represents a regular attack which misses. Meaning that an infinite stream of misses is not conceivable.

By "sleep" I meant Mist, the djinn. The problem with summon/psyenergy is that, with 5 venus, if four of those are standby/recovery than Isaac dies in two hits. Obviously, healing every turn is not a good option, so even with Granite/Ground the djinn cooldown from the rush is terrible. Also, spire, (my strongest psyenergy at that level) only does ~55 damage even after some earth boosts, compared to ~370 from Judgement...I'm not disagreeing that summoning is the best option, I'm just wondering which element of summons to use. It seems at first glance like the Granite/Ground/Vine set-up makes Venus an easy choice, but Mars has two attacking djinn and mercury has Mist...I really don't want to test all four paths, however. FYI, it took two Judgements, a Cybele and two Ramses to kill the second gladiator, alongside a few spires and Flint. (the kill was a Judge, so I may have overkilled)

I don't do Tret first. doing so is ridiculous in every conceivable way. Instead, I RNG nine sirens in the lighthouse for high EXP and Crystal Powder. With 9 CP, Saturos falls to a severely under leveled party, no other random fights necessary.

Also, Link, most of what you said is quite accurate and a good response to the prior posts. However, one tidbit is incorrect; it is possible to manipulate every one of the boss's actions/your crits/status effects. However, it is not possible to lock the boss into a perpetual string of misses, even if you could find a convoluted and unproductive path to force him to only normal attack. This is because, although every move can be changed, the number of possible variations is limited. Like most old RN generators, your actions merely add to the RN, so the max number you can add is always a known value, and will often not be enough to get to the next RN which represents a regular attack which misses. Meaning that an infinite stream of misses is not conceivable.

By "sleep" I meant Mist, the djinn. The problem with summon/psyenergy is that, with 5 venus, if four of those are standby/recovery than Isaac dies in two hits. Obviously, healing every turn is not a good option, so even with Granite/Ground the djinn cooldown from the rush is terrible. Also, spire, (my strongest psyenergy at that level) only does ~55 damage even after some earth boosts, compared to ~370 from Judgement...I'm not disagreeing that summoning is the best option, I'm just wondering which element of summons to use. It seems at first glance like the Granite/Ground/Vine set-up makes Venus an easy choice, but Mars has two attacking djinn and mercury has Mist...I really don't want to test all four paths, however. FYI, it took two Judgements, a Cybele and two Ramses to kill the second gladiator, alongside a few spires and Flint. (the kill was a Judge, so I may have overkilled)

Manocheese

2010-01-26 08:25:39 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from FlamingMage:

The problem with summon/psyenergy is that, with 5 venus, if four of those are standby/recovery than Isaac dies in two hits. Obviously, healing every turn is not a good option, so even with Granite/Ground the djinn cooldown from the rush is terrible. Also, spire, (my strongest psyenergy at that level) only does ~55 damage even after some earth boosts, compared to ~370 from Judgement...I'm not disagreeing that summoning is the best option, I'm just wondering which element of summons to use. It seems at first glance like the Granite/Ground/Vine set-up makes Venus an easy choice, but Mars has two attacking djinn and mercury has Mist...I really don't want to test all four paths, however. FYI, it took two Judgements, a Cybele and two Ramses to kill the second gladiator, alongside a few spires and Flint. (the kill was a Judge, so I may have overkilled)

You definitely overkilled him. He only has 570 HP, and a single Judgment with no Venus boosts would do 328-331 damage (see here), meaning that two Judgments alone would have been enough (in fact, a Cybele and a Judgment would have been enough).

[quote="FlamingMage"]The problem with summon/psyenergy is that, with 5 venus, if four of those are standby/recovery than Isaac dies in two hits. Obviously, healing every turn is not a good option, so even with Granite/Ground the djinn cooldown from the rush is terrible. Also, spire, (my strongest psyenergy at that level) only does ~55 damage even after some earth boosts, compared to ~370 from Judgement...I'm not disagreeing that summoning is the best option, I'm just wondering which element of summons to use. It seems at first glance like the Granite/Ground/Vine set-up makes Venus an easy choice, but Mars has two attacking djinn and mercury has Mist...I really don't want to test all four paths, however. FYI, it took two Judgements, a Cybele and two Ramses to kill the second gladiator, alongside a few spires and Flint. (the kill was a Judge, so I may have overkilled)[/quote]

You definitely overkilled him. He only has 570 HP, and a single Judgment with no Venus boosts would do 328-331 damage (see [url=http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Summon]here[/url]), meaning that two Judgments alone would have been enough (in fact, a Cybele and a Judgment would have been enough).

DoubleThink

2010-01-26 08:46:02 pm

There's a word for that

Quote from FlamingMage:

By "sleep" I meant Mist, the djinn. The problem with summon/psyenergy is that, with 5 venus, if four of those are standby/recovery than Isaac dies in two hits. Obviously, healing every turn is not a good option, so even with Granite/Ground the djinn cooldown from the rush is terrible. Also, spire, (my strongest psyenergy at that level) only does ~55 damage even after some earth boosts, compared to ~370 from Judgement...I'm not disagreeing that summoning is the best option, I'm just wondering which element of summons to use. It seems at first glance like the Granite/Ground/Vine set-up makes Venus an easy choice, but Mars has two attacking djinn and mercury has Mist...I really don't want to test all four paths, however. FYI, it took two Judgements, a Cybele and two Ramses to kill the second gladiator, alongside a few spires and Flint. (the kill was a Judge, so I may have overkilled)

~~Satrage only has 570 HP,~~ and pretty pathetic defense regardless of whether he wins the race or not. Same for Azart. With a decent weapon (Great Sword?) Isaac should do more than Spire with a regular physical attack (70+). Based on this I would suggest a strategy of Status -> Physical Offensive Djinn of Summon Element (e.g. Flint/Sap/Bane etc.) -> Lv4 Djinn Summon.

[quote="FlamingMage"]
By "sleep" I meant Mist, the djinn. The problem with summon/psyenergy is that, with 5 venus, if four of those are standby/recovery than Isaac dies in two hits. Obviously, healing every turn is not a good option, so even with Granite/Ground the djinn cooldown from the rush is terrible. Also, spire, (my strongest psyenergy at that level) only does ~55 damage even after some earth boosts, compared to ~370 from Judgement...I'm not disagreeing that summoning is the best option, I'm just wondering which element of summons to use. It seems at first glance like the Granite/Ground/Vine set-up makes Venus an easy choice, but Mars has two attacking djinn and mercury has Mist...I really don't want to test all four paths, however. FYI, it took two Judgements, a Cybele and two Ramses to kill the second gladiator, alongside a few spires and Flint. (the kill was a Judge, so I may have overkilled)
[/quote][s]Satrage only has 570 HP,[/s] and pretty pathetic defense regardless of whether he wins the race or not. Same for Azart. With a decent weapon (Great Sword?) Isaac should do more than Spire with a regular physical attack (70+). Based on this I would suggest a strategy of Status -> Physical Offensive Djinn of Summon Element (e.g. Flint/Sap/Bane etc.) -> Lv4 Djinn Summon.

FlamingMage

2010-01-27 05:21:19 am

Keep in mind that he also uses two nuts, but I can probably manipulate those out during the actual run. Also, 570? For the second guy? That seems preposterously lower than how long it took to kill him. Ah well. Oh, and Isaac's current weapon is the Vulcan Axe.

Also, doublethink, I don't have Sap or Bane, unfortunently. Those are the two Venus I skip. Grin