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Fucking Weeaboo
Quote from AdamAK:
Quote from mikwuyma:
Paradox Karl: That would make 151's donation incentives more focused, but then I have to ask, what would the point of doing a 151 run would be if we're only taking donation incentives for those pokemon?


How is this different from any other game on the list, though? The list of possible donation incentives is large for many games, but that doesn't mean you /have/ to include every option for it to be a suitable marathon candidate. 151's merit doesn't come solely from having a lot of Pokemon names to decide on.


Where would you draw the line? Starters + Legendaries? One per evolution line? Only ones used? Pikachu only? That would be the big question.

If you did S+L, You'd have 8 names (3 starters + 5 legendaries if I remember my Gen 1 right). That wouldn't be too bad. I know Mike's concern would probably be more the whiners "Why aren't you naming [insert Gen 1 pokemon here]? WAH WAH."

HeartGold is a good watch none-the-less. Plus Werster will get his revenge on Lance.
Edit history:
moooh: 2013-09-08 03:48:08 am
Exoray
I notice there's a great focus around the donation incentives problem and all the other considerations are being left out.
Well, if you go back and compare the pitch for the pokemon games, you'll probably be able to understand why that particular decision was made.

The 151 run:
* Massive donation incentives
* Some real cool glitches
* 5h 30m long

The Heartgold run:
* The most consistently entertaining
* A few interesting glitches
* A lot of difficult fights with cool strats that make for a really exciting run
* 3h 30m long

Now imagine that you have to create a schedule that is very pressed for time. You have a 5.5 hour run and a 3.5 hour run. The shorter run is more entertaining and a very exciting run. The longer run has glitches and donation incentives. Which one do you think would be picked?

Add to the fact that people are thinking up solutions that remove the massive donation incentives factor for the 151 run, leaving it with "lots of cool glitches" as the main selling point.
Quote from moooh:
The Heartgold run:
* A few interesting glitches
Pretty sure Werster only runs HG glitchless%.
Edit history:
moooh: 2013-09-08 04:09:05 am
Exoray
I guess you better tell him that then. All the words were taken from his own pitch.
Even if he currently runs glitchless, the run he offered was glitched.
Edit history:
Onin: 2013-09-08 04:21:45 am
Onin: 2013-09-08 04:05:06 am
Onin: 2013-09-08 04:04:00 am
It's scheduled at 4:45. That's the timing for glitchless.
If it's supposed to be a glitched run, then 1. cool, I like glitches, and 2. you just saved 1:15 off the schedule, party time.

e: Werster confirmed on stream it's supposed to be glitched, so Mike can cut off some time from there.
^Either way, I just think 151 would be a better watch for it's uniqueness. Most of the Pokemon runs we've had in marathons are straight shot 'beat the game' runs, we've never had anything that involves 'catching 'em all'. If you can figure out how to deal with the incentives list by limiting it to a certain amount, so you'd still have a large list, but not too much of a headache, then I think it would be superior in this instant.
We require more minerals
Quote from Marche_Fighter_Paladin:
2 things regarding the pokemon 151 thing:

1) Writing down dames before hand would mean closing donations early and taking the time to do that. not sure that's worth the effort.

2) As long as werster tells someone with the tracker up "I'm trying to catch this pokemon" all they have to do is refresh and control+F the pokemon's name to see what's winning. they'll have the name ready by the time werster can type it in.


During the marathon simply refreshing and having the tracker load instantly is not a thing we can count on. The contrary has happened too many times. I know that the tracker has been optimized and reworked a lot between last AGDQ and now, but until it gets taxed as hard as it does during an AGDQ again with unknown amounts of viewers this time around? Yes, we're going to have to close donations early for choices until we're certain that it won't explode.
WHY'D YOU KILL THE BLAST CORPS 100% RACE Cry Cry Cry

Regarding 151 pokes run: One thing I can see the run being both more of a problem and less of a problem is the fact that not all 151 pokes will have names; a lot of them will be evolved. This creates the problem of some guy going "hey I want to name Arcanine FrankrZ" when there will be no Arcanine (just a growlithe that will become an arcanine) and you have to juggle these with the other poke's names. There may need to be a list of what poke names could actually be voted for.
Plus, with so many voting incentives, there could easily be many ties. Not sure how those would be handled.
Balls jerky
Tompa's cup of pennies. Whenever there's a tie, donation reader picks up a penny, makes a choice, and drops the penny into the donation box. Easy peasy.
Claimh Happy
If the tracker is down, we wouldn't be able to check anything anyways. Our options are either stop the marathon and wait for it, let the runner choose, or go with whatever we most recently saw was winning. There are downsides to all of those but it's not like it's only a problem in this one case.
Yeah, that's a problem with any game with donation incentives, it's not exclusive to the 151 run. I still think the problem could be lessened by choosing a certain number of Pokemon that could be donated for.
Quote from heeheex2:
If sm64 is demanded and you want more of a silly category, I think a 15 star race between me and paradoxkarl would be fun Smiley


lmao, I would be up for that but I'm pretty sure mike isn't going to change his mind at this point (maybe if the schedule is really far ahead and we are both there then maybe it could just be thrown it?) Alternatively, a 1 star race could just be added in including any combination of heehee, toufool and me (not sure if anyone else that is going can do 1 star).

Also just incase anyone is interested, 15 star is getting 1 star from each stage+beat the game. Just a random fun category a few japanese players came up with a while ago.

Game offers are closed though so I doubt suggesting these would do anything.
Nice to see AoE2, think it was a good decision with only one scenario since the missions aren't as varied as in SC2.
You asked for avatars...
I'm glad Glover is finally getting its chance to "shine," as its a fun as hell game to play, and probably much more fun to race.  It'll probably be under Awful games right? 
mwsf!
Quote from InterrupterJones:
I'm glad Glover is finally getting its chance to "shine," as its a fun as hell game to play, and probably much more fun to race.  It'll probably be under Awful games right? 

Haha, I made a bet with stri_ about it getting into AwfulGDQ. If it's in the normal marathon, he has to wear a tiara (on top of the costumes we are wearing), and if it's in AwfulGDQ then I have to wear the tiara. Should be fun Tongue
Quote from ARF:
Great to see that Double Spoiler stays in, I hope it will be well received!

This for sure. Can't wait to see the only game I've ever had a hand in speedrunning at a GDQ. <_<
Keeper of TASBot
Quote from Taoto:
I didn't realize the console verified list was so limited, so please excuse my ignorance.


That's actually something I'd like to fix as the current list of console verified movies is only 20 games.  I'll be creating a separate thread closer to the marathon to ask attendees to bring games on this list:

http://tasvideos.org/Movies-NES-SNES-N64-NoScreenshot-NoTier-NoFlags.html

This is an enormous list of every NES, SNES, and N64 game with a current TAS movie, coming to 643 games (I could have added the token -Genesis in that URL but that would add another 160 games and I don't currently own a Genesis to develop with).  Some of these games are incredibly unlikelly to ever be console verified because of rarity (Action 52, for example) and many of them may never be able to be consle verified due to other random factors (games that read truly random sources for RNG, which turns out to be a fair number of games).

At the moment, the plan remains to demonstrate Gradius with Adelikat commentating, SM64 0-strar with who knows how many people commentating, and a potential surprise movie with a surprise commentator in the 30 minute block.  It's encouraging to see so much support and colaboration between the SDA and TASVideos communities - thanks for the supportive comments!

A.C.
******
My feelings on The Demon Rush
The first thing I want to stress is that I'm glad that most people are being calm and keeping things cool. I understand it's not easy to stay calm when a game you run or really like has been cut, and I appreciate that people are keeping a cool head about things.

I will answer more posts later, but I want to answer the two biggest sticking points in the thread right now, which are Pokemon 151 and Halo 2.

Pokemon 151:

Oversaturation and overwhelming: Let me explain this a bit. The biggest problem is that instead of focusing on 2 or 3 pokemon, you're spreading out donations over a lot of pokemon (I don't know the exact count but I hear it's around 80-90). There's nothing that's telling me that donations would actually increase from having more Pokemon, and there's a good possibility they might just be spread out amongst more Pokemon. To address Adam's point about 151, I was talking from a donation incentives standpoint (2-3 pokemon opposed to 90+)

Which brings up my next point.

Paraxade also brings up a good point, if you have that many choices on the donation list, then it clogs up the entire list (though there's probably a way around that)

The trading card idea before the run: You do realize that instead of the names taking up time during the run, you would be frontloading all of the time to right before/during the beginning of the run? In theory I like the idea, but I don't know how it will work in practice. We'd have to cut off all donations for Pokemon names before a certain time point, and stress that many times over.

If we implement the trading card idea during the run, then each Pokemon will take at the very minimum 30 seconds (btw this figure is way optimistic, it would likely take longer) to get the name, and as Raelcun mentioned, there's a possibility the tracker might get bogged (which is a good problem to have but still a problem).

To address Marche's point, actually this is a unique problem because AFAIK we've never had a game with more than 15 donation choices (I'm pretty sure FFIV is on the upper bound of what we've had), so it actually is only a problem in this one case.

So let's say we reduce the names and donation incentives down, here's the big question.

Is the extra 2 hours spent collecting everything going to bring a. significantly more donations? b. more viewers and excitement for the run?

I haven't seen any evidence for point a., and if I had to hazard I guess, I would say no. For point b., there is definitely interest and it might work out on that end. The question that follows is the potential to get more viewers and interest worth it? To me that's a big maybe.

Also werster out of all of the possible names, why did you choose that name for the bellsprout? You and I both know that kind of name wouldn't fly at a marathon, and you could have chosen pretty much anything else.

I have one last question.

Are Werster's counts significantly higher for 151 than they are for Heart Gold? Does anyone have good solid numbers?

Heart Gold: I put in 4:45 because I heard Werster's time was 4:15, I didn't realize that he was going run it glitched. Sorry, that's a mistake on my part and I changed it on the schedule.

Halo 2: Okay I at least owe a more detailed explanation for why I think Halo 2 is a big risk, and it's not 100% related to Cody Miller's past performances, though that plays a part.

Let's look at Miller's performances first.

Halo: This was a disaster, there's no denying it.

Halo Reach: Was this the best run or a great run? No. Was it played competently? Yes. I won't say Miller's performance was great, but he played the game and demonstrated some tricks. I won't lie, the commentary wasn't there.

However, as a counter point, SM64 this SGDQ had nonexistent commentary, and while there were some complaints, there were nowhere near as many as there were for Halo Reach (also consider that the audience was a lot smaller during AGDQ 2012). People were begging for Super Meat Boy to start. Even when factoring how much bigger the marathon has become, Halo Reach did relatively poorly donations-wise.

Now the past results are not entirely based on Cody Miller's performance and commentary, and these are the points I need to bring up.

We have a lot of FPS games already: We have Quake, Doom, and other fast-paced FPS games on the schedule. Compared to those games, even with the tricks, Halo 2 is slower, there's no denying that, and people will compare Halo 2 to the other FPS games on the list. Is comparing a console FPS to a PC FPS a fair comparison? No it's not a fair comparison, but the comparison is very likely to happen with how many FPSes we have on the list, and this is all about perception and Halo is slower. This comparison has happened to the Halo games (and other modern console FPSes in the past) in past marathons.

Now you'll probably bring up Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, and I personally haven't seen too many complaints about Goldeneye being slower than PC FPS games (though it definitely is slower). My best guess at why this doesn't happen to those games is nostalgia (N64 nostalgia is strong), but it's hard to tell. Yes, it's a double standard for the older console FPS games and the newer ones and it's a dumb standard, but at the same time it exists. I think part of the reason why this double standard exists is in my next point.

Popularity: Is the game popular? Yeah, there's no denying that, it sold a ton of copies. Does that mean people are nostalgic for the game? This I have doubts about. Pretty much every modern console FPS we've run has had bad or mixed reactions at best. Gears of War at SGDQ 2012 is a good indication of this. A lot of people complain about Halo, Gears of War and Call of Duty as making FPS games casual and dumbing down the genre in general, and I've seen a lot of bitching about that, not just in marathons but in chats and forums and pretty much any video featuring a classic fps.

The marathons have grown so much argument: I'd rather not argue this point because we have no hard evidence that suggests that since the marathons have grown so much that there's a bigger audience for Halo now, or whether the demographic has not really changed despite growing and we would just experience an even bigger backlash for Halo. We could debate this point for days and get nowhere.

Does Halo 2 have a lot of tricks? Yes, and I'd like to see a recent run. Is part of the reason why Halo failed in the past bad commentary? Wouldn't shock me, but at the same time if commentary was the only issue, then I wouldn't worry about it too much because we have plenty of commentators at GDQs now. There's other factors going against Halo, and I don't know if we can fix those other factors.
Quote from mikwuyma:
Is the extra 2 hours spent collecting everything going to bring a. significantly more donations? b. more viewers and excitement for the run?

I haven't seen any evidence for point a., and if I had to hazard I guess, I would say no. For point b., there is definitely interest and it might work out on that end. The question that follows is the potential to get more viewers and interest worth it? To me that's a big maybe.


I think a would follow because of b. The concept of werster going for all 151 by itself is bound to draw a huge crowd (who played Pokemon as a kid and didn't want to accomplish a full Pokedex?), and I think moreso than HeartGold (which is an excellent run still). You could debate about the extra time for 151 vs another game taking that time getting donations all day, but I honestly think the potential draw would be huge here. I mean, it's Pokemon, it's got massive brand recognition, it'll get big donations whether it's HeartGold or 151 Blue, and I think the nature of the 151 run plus the extra time will magnify that. As I've said before, if you cut the donations down to maybe 5-10 chosen Pokemon, you'll reduce/eliminate the headache.
On the Pokemon Blue 151 topic, I'll point out that having a naming donation incentive for each pokemon could bring in donations from a lot of people who might not otherwise donate.  I know avoid the naming incentives in the marathons, because I don't want my money going towards somethnig that's just going to get Poxnor'd and lose, or if the choice I want is ahead, I don't feel much incentive to help it "win more."  If there are 100 naming incentives though, then I would totally want to find one without any donations towards it and put in $10 to have the name of my choice there.  It's a "safer" donation, since the number of other options available acts as a sort of screen to lower the chances of someone else coming in and sniping my choice.  In short, this wouldn't just be more donation incentives, it'd be adding donation incentives of a brand new type than what a marathon has offered before, which I think could bring donations from some of the more "casual" viewers.

In regards to the idea that the pokemon choices would clog the incentive list, that is a valid concern.  That said, I found the list for SGDQ difficult enough to find anything in as it was, and it would do well to have some upgrades made to it, Pokemon Blue 151 or not.  Any upgrades could take this kind of thing into account so it wouldn't become a UI problem (and if needed, I could offer my services to help with this [my day job is a web application developer]).

All that said, I also think that 151 would be a pretty big draw in general, even if it didn't have all the donation incentives.  I know I personally would be more hype about a 151 run than a regular run of any other pokemon game.

One  final thought about donations, could 151 be a donation incentive?  10,000 to have Werster catch 'em all, otherwise he just does an any% (and no naming incentives other than character, rival, and starter).  Maybe something like that could be the best of both worlds?
Quote from mikwuyma:
Halo 2: Okay I at least owe a more detailed explanation for why I think Halo 2 is a big risk, and it's not 100% related to Cody Miller's past performances, though that plays a part.

Let's look at Miller's performances first.

Halo: This was a disaster, there's no denying it.

Halo Reach: Was this the best run or a great run? No. Was it played competently? Yes. I won't say Miller's performance was great, but he played the game and demonstrated some tricks. I won't lie, the commentary wasn't there.

However, as a counter point, SM64 this SGDQ had nonexistent commentary, and while there were some complaints, there were nowhere near as many as there were for Halo Reach (also consider that the audience was a lot smaller during AGDQ 2012). People were begging for Super Meat Boy to start. Even when factoring how much bigger the marathon has become, Halo Reach did relatively poorly donations-wise.

Now the past results are not entirely based on Cody Miller's performance and commentary, and these are the points I need to bring up.

I watched Reach when it was played. The complaining did not happen until Cody died 15+ times at the SAME EXACT SPOT. The chat was pretty positive until that moment. That is when people begged for Super Meat Boy.

Quote from mikwuyma:
We have a lot of FPS games already: We have Quake, Doom, and other fast-paced FPS games on the schedule. Compared to those games, even with the tricks, Halo 2 is slower, there's no denying that, and people will compare Halo 2 to the other FPS games on the list. Is comparing a console FPS to a PC FPS a fair comparison? No it's not a fair comparison, but the comparison is very likely to happen with how many FPSes we have on the list, and this is all about perception and Halo is slower. This comparison has happened to the Halo games (and other modern console FPSes in the past) in past marathons.

Now you'll probably bring up Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, and I personally haven't seen too many complaints about Goldeneye being slower than PC FPS games (though it definitely is slower). My best guess at why this doesn't happen to those games is nostalgia (N64 nostalgia is strong), but it's hard to tell. Yes, it's a double standard for the older console FPS games and the newer ones and it's a dumb standard, but at the same time it exists. I think part of the reason why this double standard exists is in my next point.


Popularity: Is the game popular? Yeah, there's no denying that, it sold a ton of copies. Does that mean people are nostalgic for the game? This I have doubts about. Pretty much every modern console FPS we've run has had bad or mixed reactions at best. Gears of War at SGDQ 2012 is a good indication of this. A lot of people complain about Halo, Gears of War and Call of Duty as making FPS games casual and dumbing down the genre in general, and I've seen a lot of bitching about that, not just in marathons but in chats and forums and pretty much any video featuring a classic fps.

Halo 2 is the MOST selling game on the Original Xbox, it is the reason Xbox live is what it is today. I don't think you realize the nostalgia that this game has. Almost anybody that played xbox live on the original xbox played this game.

Quote from mikwuyma:
Does Halo 2 have a lot of tricks? Yes, and I'd like to see a recent run. Is part of the reason why Halo failed in the past bad commentary? Wouldn't shock me, but at the same time if commentary was the only issue, then I wouldn't worry about it too much because we have plenty of commentators at GDQs now. There's other factors going against Halo, and I don't know if we can fix those other factors.


Halo 2 has by far the most speedrunning tricks of the series. You are comparing it to other games when a comparison cannot be made. Im not sure how much you know about the Spyro series, but imagine comparing any of the first 3 Spyros to any of the Skylanders games. That is the difference between a game like Halo 2 and Reach in terms of speedrunning and the overall acceptance of the game in the community, and just because they share the same franchise name, does not mean that they are anywhere near the same caliber.

I am uploading my most recent run to youtube. It is the WR at 2:11, with quite a bit of room for improvement that will be made before the marathon if the game were to be readded. The file is 19GB though, so it wont be up for a couple hours. If you want I can link you to that vid and you can either watch most of it, or I can link you to some of the cooler moments in the run.

Finally, thanks to everyone else that is supporting the idea of H2 at the marathon. I appreciate the support, but I want to make Mike aware that I did not just ask a bunch of people to come yell at him to put the game here. 
Edit history:
RoboSparkle: 2013-09-08 03:24:09 pm
Magical. Flying. Bathtub
Okay so I'm quite sad that I don't get any games this year, but them's the breaks I suppose.  I had hoped that the fact Jay and I would have been racing Asylum (and it would have been close though) would have countered the possible issue that it isn't as glitchy as City.  And the fact that City was rejected because we've already had it makes me feel like I shouldn't have bothered offering either, and just gone with something really leftfield like Cosmic Spacehead or Puggsy.

EDIT: Just noticed that Jay recently posted this.  For those who doubt that an Asylum run would be entertaining, I give you http://www.twitch.tv/honorablejay/c/2890027

Having said that, Jay are you up for an Arkham trilogy race? (off stream - PC vs. Xbox).  Also I really do hope we get Time Crisis with guns even if they aren't in the marathon because I have Point Blank 1-3 and will accept all challenges Smiley

On the subject of live TAS, while what I know about TAS could fit on the back of a postage stamp that itself already contained my entire knowledge of Nintendo systems, is there anyway of having a DS TAS that will play on console?  Because if so I really liked this:

Edit history:
mikwuyma: 2013-09-08 03:33:43 pm
mikwuyma: 2013-09-08 03:31:32 pm
My feelings on The Demon Rush
I decided add Super Mario 64 one-handed one-star back onto the list. I can make the one-handed portion a donation incentive. I think people misinterpreted (or I didn't explain well enough) what I said about Mario 64, I was already open to the idea (see my response to PEACHES_), but I didn't want to add it because we were overstuffed. Now that I know that Heart Gold is glitched, I added it back onto the list, despite still being overfull by a couple of hours.

Page 4 stuff:

SaintConnor: There's some nice clipping glitches in Blasto, but from what I saw, they're not very numerous. Aside from those glitches, there isn't too much that sticks out. The platforming and movement is kind of slow, and there's nothing that leaps out as haha funny awful. This is one of the few PS1 games where the graphics are actually decent, and that kind of hurts the game for AwfulGDQ, to be honest.

Either way, I'm glad you're handling this with such a good attitude.

Brassmaster: Then maybe I was looking at the wrong points of the run. I was watching your console record on twitch, in case if you were wondering which run I saw. Also, the first five or so minutes of the game is very QTE and cutscene heavy, there's no denying that.

I think one Tomb Raider game should be in the marathon because it is a fairly popular series, and they do have some good speedtricks, but in a list this stacked I don't have space for more than one, and I think TR2 would be the better watch. There's also the very real fact that it's also shorter, and I am pressed for time.

Countdown42: Super C was something I forgot to go over. I'm cool with the co-op portion, but it's the race portion that scares me because Heidman and Mr. K are already super well-practiced at the game. I'm wondering if you and the other runners would be more open to something similar like we did for DD2 AGDQ 2012 where Sinister1 and Jprophet split up onto separate teams so the race would be more fair.

Piepusher11: The other issue is that DK Jungle Beat is and the list is already packed as is. The other DK games we already have (and maybe DKC3) are better watches and shorter. Unless if a lot of space suddenly frees up, I have a hard time seeing this one making it back on the list.

18 hours of Zelda: Yes that is a lot of Zelda, but Zelda is generally one of the the most successful games in terms of viewers and donations. All Dungeons would add some variety to Twilight Princess because that was a category that wasn't run at SGDQ.

Page 5 stuff:

Vega: I have yet to see those speedrunners. Also, I thought you wanted to run Time Crisis 2 a couple of weeks ago. If you can't stick to a game then you're not exactly selling me.

Barbarossa89: Yes, Age of Empires 2 is guaranteed on the schedule.

About the scenarios, I'll need a full list by December, so you have time.

I don't see anything wrong with using the expansion pack, do whatever works.

And thanks. Smiley

Kale: Both games are popular and Boshy is definitely worth considering in a future marathon, but the games are similar(ish) in style and I think both are quite popular, but I don't really think it's worth having two such games in a marathon.
Quote from mikwuyma:

Countdown42: Super C was something I forgot to go over. I'm cool with the co-op portion, but it's the race portion that scares me because Heidman and Mr. K are already super well-practiced at the game. I'm wondering if you and the other runners would be more open to something similar like we did for DD2 AGDQ 2012 where Sinister1 and Jprophet split up onto separate teams so the race would be more fair.

.


Obviously this would be up to the runners themselves to determine, but I'm skeptical this can work for Super C.  Heidman and Mr. K needed a lot of coordination in order to get these runs done and I'm skeptical that you can swap partners and get either run done.