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Linkinito: 2013-09-09 05:20:31 pm
Linkinito: 2013-09-09 05:19:16 pm
Linkinito: 2013-09-09 05:19:12 pm
Linkinito: 2013-09-09 05:16:10 pm
This is my avatar
If I can add something. I might be a guy who says "there's too much Zelda/Mario", but the fact is 21% of the total time is allotted to Zelda and Mario games. I know these sagas are immensely popular, but they both represent nearly a day and a half worth of speedruns. Even if there's 6 days of speedrunning, some games doesn't have the chance to get some recognition while two sagas (17 games in total) have a whole bunch of the cake.

Of course not everyone can have a game and not every saga can be represented, but having one-fifth of a whole event dedicated to two sagas only explains a bit the whole "there's too much Zelda/Mario" thing. Even if there's tons of popularity and demand. There's some classics that can't be avoided. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any of these games anymore, but this proportion made me say "wow, that much". It's still a number to think about.

21% of Zelda and Mario.
I am the 79%
1/5th of the marathon is dedicated to them because they make money.  Keep in mind that this schedule is more for twitch viewers than it is for the speedrunning community.  They hate on Final Fantasy games for the same reasons that they love Pokemon games.  They go ape shit over easy to perform glitches, but give little to no attention for hardcore execution that isn't "hype" enough for them.  Most twitch viewers are really stupid and watch the same garbage all day, so the schedule must account for their tastes.

They may be morons, but they are morons with money.  Having a ton of Zelda/Mario games to reel in the nostalgia nerds will make more money than having a ton of less popular but still top tier speedgames.  The schedule is designed to grab and keep the attention of twitch viewers so we can get more donations.  As an infamous SDA moderator said, "We need to milk every titty."
I'm a sucker for Mario and Zelda runs.

I have a difficult time thinking of any online community marathon that didn't have Mario AND Zelda (other than series-specific marathons...and even then they'd sometimes throw in Mario and Zelda). If there are some online community marathons that somehow avoided those games, I never heard about them.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
DKC3: It's definitely a good watch, but like I said, compared to the first two games it's not as good of a watch, nor is it as popular. That being said, it's definitely worth considering as a bonus game if space appears on the schedule because there are definitely people who want to watch the game.

Also, MorKs, thank you for having a good attitude.

Sunblade: That estimate seems way too tight if Assignment Ada is a donation incentive.

Linkinito: They do well and instead of having a bunch of Sonic and RPGs like we did last year, some of that time went toward the Zelda and Mario games (and other games too).
Quote from All_Bogs:
Briefly discussed the Pokemon issue with a few friends. We all try to catch as much of the marathons as we can, but we generally agree that combat-based RPGs like Pokemon and Final Fantasy aren't exactly interesting to watch. During SGDQ I briefly checked out FF V to see how one would fight Ex-Death in a speedrun, and after seeing somebody mention it on Reddit, I briefly checked the VOD to see what Brossentia did to the poor game. While I love Chrono Trigger to bits, I doubt any of us will be watching much of it. Same goes for Pokemon, as amazing a commentator as Werster is, it's just not interesting enough to watch all the way through, so we'd definitely go with the faster run.

Ah, but this is an opinion thing. I'm a huge fan of FF and Pokemon runs, but I can't stand most Zelda runs. Doesn't mean they should be cut - it's a complex issue involving careful balancing, past donation stats and bunch of other things, because both types of games have huge speedrunning fanbases. Not adding any RPGs is probably just as bad as not adding all Zeldas, donation wise and marathon wise. And look on the bright side, people like you get more sleeping blocks. <_<
Quote from Naegleria:
1/5th of the marathon is dedicated to them because they make money.  Keep in mind that this schedule is more for twitch viewers than it is for the speedrunning community.


Quote from Naegleria:
As an infamous SDA moderator said, "We need to milk every titty."


Sad thing is I feel this is what the marathons are becoming since speedrunning has become a mainstream thing, and I believe it will just be getting more and more like this. I'm really hoping this changes over the next year and a half since it feels like a good part of the speedrun community itself is being pushed aside for people who barely care for speedrunning as a whole.
Quote from Lazy to login:
Sad thing is I feel this is what the marathons are becoming since speedrunning has become a mainstream thing, and I believe it will just be getting more and more like this. I'm really hoping this changes over the next year and a half since it feels like a good part of the speedrun community itself is being pushed aside for people who barely care for speedrunning as a whole.


I'm all in favor of marathons for fun and kicks.
Quote from Lazy to login:
Quote from Naegleria:
1/5th of the marathon is dedicated to them because they make money.  Keep in mind that this schedule is more for twitch viewers than it is for the speedrunning community.


Quote from Naegleria:
As an infamous SDA moderator said, "We need to milk every titty."


Sad thing is I feel this is what the marathons are becoming since speedrunning has become a mainstream thing, and I believe it will just be getting more and more like this. I'm really hoping this changes over the next year and a half since it feels like a good part of the speedrun community itself is being pushed aside for people who barely care for speedrunning as a whole.


I doubt it.  And 1/5 of the marathon leaves over 120 hours for other games.  Plenty of time.
@Mikwuyma : No problem Smiley I know you are really getting messaged by everyone and some of them can be really bothering for you. I hope everything turns out as you expect it Smiley    Oh and by the way, BRB, submitting DKC3 Any% World Record (with SDA video quality) on SDA Wink
<(^_^)>
Quote from MorKs:
@Mikwuyma : No problem Smiley I know you are really getting messaged by everyone and some of them can be really bothering for you. I hope everything turns out as you expect it Smiley    Oh and by the way, BRB, submitting DKC3 Any% World Record (with SDA video quality) on SDA Wink


oh my gawd. off topic, but oh my gawd, HYPE
Quote from kirbymastah:
Quote from MorKs:
@Mikwuyma : No problem Smiley I know you are really getting messaged by everyone and some of them can be really bothering for you. I hope everything turns out as you expect it Smiley    Oh and by the way, BRB, submitting DKC3 Any% World Record (with SDA video quality) on SDA Wink


oh my gawd. off topic, but oh my gawd, HYPE

This.
Quote from doicm:
Quote from kirbymastah:
Quote from MorKs:
@Mikwuyma : No problem Smiley I know you are really getting messaged by everyone and some of them can be really bothering for you. I hope everything turns out as you expect it Smiley    Oh and by the way, BRB, submitting DKC3 Any% World Record (with SDA video quality) on SDA Wink


oh my gawd. off topic, but oh my gawd, HYPE

This.


Less talking, more linking.
Just my thoughts.

Really Happy Borderlands 2 and Bro are in. The game is fun, and speedruns of it are really fun to watch. Especially co-op runs.
Also Really happy Vice City is in. The random stuff that happens in GTA make it worth the watch alone.

However, I'm REALLY sad that Halo 2 got cut. Halo 2 is such a good game. And honestly, I havent seen a Halo game ran in ages. Really hope you can find time to fit it in.

Just my thoughts.
Obscure games ftw
Of the Spyro games: Spyro 3 any% race was definitely the strongest option available, except maybe 40 orb but 100% for Spyro 2 was done in SGDQ.
Of the Crash games: Crash 1 may be a simpler game, but it's definitely harder.  Hopefully Cane pulls a no intentional deaths run Cheesy
Ape Escape 2/3: I didn't seriously expect AE3 to get in, but I figured it had a shot so I pitched it.  I'll still work on my AE3 time and hopefully have a stronger run come next AGDQ.
Touhou games: I would have liked to see a block, but if any one game had to survive I'm pretty happy it's mine.  I'll be taking this a lot more seriously in the coming months, I can smash the estimate I gave even on a bad run already and there's still a lot of room for improvement.  (Today's practice: 48:22)
Other cuts: I'd have liked to see Frogger but I can just make Cane do it on some other TV Tongue  Mario Kart Wii I would say is one of the stronger entries in the series, and Drogbass/Wrath is really good at it.  MK64 skips being what topped it is a matter of opinion, and I respect the difference there.

Also, VVVVVV hype.
Quote from Lazy to login:
Sad thing is I feel this is what the marathons are becoming since speedrunning has become a mainstream thing, and I believe it will just be getting more and more like this. I'm really hoping this changes over the next year and a half since it feels like a good part of the speedrun community itself is being pushed aside for people who barely care for speedrunning as a whole.
Just because AGDQ is heading in that direction, doesn't mean speedrunning as a whole is. We still have plenty other marathons (including SGDQ) where mainstream popularity or anything related to that is not the main goal.
Edit history:
wersterlobe: 2013-09-10 07:55:00 am
Quote from mikwuyma:
I have one last question.

Are Werster's counts significantly higher for 151 than they are for Heart Gold? Does anyone have good solid numbers?


I usually get around 1.5K-2K while reseting, and around 2.5K-4K on a good run for any Pokemon game, regardless of what it is. I was over 5K during my last run a few days ago, and I'm pretty just about anyone who watched found that run very entertaining. I also constantly get asked when I'm going to do another run of it, multiple times every day. I just think you're missing out on an opportunity and focusing on every single negative about this run and not acknowledging any positive.

On a slightly related note, after that run I raided Kalemandu playing I Wanna Be The Boshy. He had around 300 before the raid, and about 1000 people went over, taking him to 1300. General retention from a raid is about 40%, so you would expect that count to drop to about 700.

It never dropped. He streamed for another hour, and ended at about 1500, not once did it go down. And that was with red splits. People -really- like watching that game

EDIT: Let me clarify by saying I don't think this should replace IWBTG but they should both be in, as they are both fantastic runs (Boshy is slightly better though, Tenshots is also a beast, it's wrong to elave either off)
Edit history:
mike89: 2013-09-10 06:24:52 am
SEGA Junkie
Quote from Lazy to login:
Sad thing is I feel this is what the marathons are becoming since speedrunning has become a mainstream thing, and I believe it will just be getting more and more like this. I'm really hoping this changes over the next year and a half since it feels like a good part of the speedrun community itself is being pushed aside for people who barely care for speedrunning as a whole.


I feel like this is an answer to a question that doesn't exist. The act of scheduling these marathons isn't something that is designed to cut people out. Indeed, one of the key things I've always seen AGDQ as is an advertisement for speedrunning itself. That means playing what runners run, and what viewers watch. Go on SRL at any given time and what do you normally see, not only at the top, but all through the list? Zelda and Mario. Having many hours dedicated to these franchises at marathons isn't ignoring the speedrunning community, it's embracing it.

The game list changes from year to year because of the changes in these factors. A couple of years ago, there were no runs of the Sony platformers (Crash, Spyro, Jak & Daxter, Ratchet & Clank, etc) in marathons, and that's simply because no one was running them. When people asked why, that was the response given - play them, and if people respond to them, they'll get in. And people played them, and viewers watch them, and now they're being rewarded with GDQ entries. As it should be. If you want the AGDQ list to look different - do something about it yourself.

That doesn't mean I agree with everything on the list - there's a couple of notable decisions I disagree with. To keep it relevant to the concerns largely offered so far, I'll stick with Halo 2. Given genre and length, it's probably competing directly with Half-Life 2 for a spot. Without knowing too much about the selection process, I'm going to go ahead and postulate that if Mike doesn't know too much about a game (as I suspect is the case here), he's probably going to go with two main factors:
* Is there a community around the game? Do people run it and watch it?
* Will the run be good quality? Gameplay and commentary!

So on one hand, you have Half-Life 2, a game that's developed a substantial community in the last few months, and you have Studio running it, whose commentary is very strong, but right now he's not producing top-tier gameplay on it. On the other side you have Halo 2, where you know you're going to get high quality gameplay, but without Monopoli having been to a marathon before and not having watched his stream myself, he's very much an unknown quantity, as is the community around the game. That community has, of course, shown itself now, but how would you know? "Ask more people!" the peanut gallery cries. But who? How would you know who to ask about a game, besides the runner who is obviously (and rightly) going to do whatever they have to to get their run in?

Now consider having to make those judgments on the entire list of games. Have fun with that.

tl;dr - the community is responsible for the content of AGDQ by what they choose to run. Why arbitrarily limit the presence of games that are popular, successful, and bring great gameplay and commentary?
A Plus One to Boshy is that the Fighting Game Community loves the game after Floe streamed it a while ago, and it's got a decent following in the Twitch community since a few streamers like LethalFrag and other non-speedrunning streamers played through the game. Since we're not running Fighting Games, this would be the closest Starcraft equivalent we'd have for the FGC.
Quote from Studio:
A Plus One to Boshy is that the Fighting Game Community loves the game after Floe streamed it a while ago, and it's got a decent following in the Twitch community since a few streamers like LethalFrag and other non-speedrunning streamers played through the game. Since we're not running Fighting Games, this would be the closest Starcraft equivalent we'd have for the FGC.


Eh, while true, the same is true of IWBTG - with IWBTGG actually being debuted/made for EVO in the first place.  It's not quite the equivalent of Starcraft which is the core game of that community, but FGs don't really work as speed run games for the most part. 

Boshy would make a good marathon game, but if you have limited time, I think IWBTG makes sense over it as the more known game. 
From what I've seen IWBTG has much more RNG and can be very frustrating to watch. Boshy on the other hands seems to be much more skillbased, has better music and takes you on a nostalgia trip.
I'm not sure if it is safe to say that IWBTG is better known. I've never heard of any of these games before I saw people speedrunning them.

Then again, I've never been able to finish IWBTG or Boshy so my opinion may be utter bullcrap. Wink
Quote from About Boshy and IWBTG:
From what I've seen IWBTG has much more RNG and can be very frustrating to watch. Boshy on the other hands seems to be much more skillbased, has better music and takes you on a nostalgia trip.
I'm not sure if it is safe to say that IWBTG is better known. I've never heard of any of these games before I saw people speedrunning them.

Then again, I've never been able to finish IWBTG or Boshy so my opinion may be utter bullcrap. Wink


RNG is a good point i don't know about - although i'd imagine that'd depend upon whether you're playing with glitch skips or not.  That said, you're right that both games are not very well known to the public or the general audience, but i'd imagine the references in IWBTG will be less likely to go over people's heads than Boshy (which is more dependent upon you knowing memes) 

Do also remember that developer commentary is also a big plus for IWBTG, and I don't know if Solgryn could do the same for Boshy.
If Boshy has become as well known as Guy, it was only in recent years. There are hundreds of thousands of videos on youtube of people raging at I wanna be the guy. I haven't heard of I wanna be the boshy until I joined twitch.
Are there realy that many meme references in Boshy? Never realized that. I admit, I did forget about the developer commentary and I'm realy looking forward to that. Paired with the number of IWBTG videos I have found on youtube I have to agree that IWBTG was the logical choice for AGDQ.
Who knows, maybe I'll see some Boshy next year.
Quote from mike89:
words


Mike, what you said kinda agrees with me. It's being focused more on Twitch viewers than the community. Members of the community are being compared to other runners of the same game, which in turn is making part in the decision. Case in point, on page 2.

Quote from UraniumAnchor:
Gombill's SGDQ2012 run had a bunch of trolls in the chat because he wasn't siglemic, so it's not an unreasonable position to take.


And from the Comments for SM64 under Cuts

Quote:
This is great bonus stream material, but probably not main marathon material. I also talked to Siglemic and he said he isn't running anything, so I don't think it's worth having this game.


See what I mean?



Maybe it's a bit of the salt talking, but I'm just pointing out what I've noticed, and since a form of a feedback thread is ways away, and that's more for the marathon's performance itself, this was really my best option, considered its a bit of a discussion. Maybe I just need to clear my head =/ Guess I'll end it here.