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mikwuyma: 2013-09-07 03:12:04 pm
My feelings on The Demon Rush
EDIT: Here's a web-published version that should be easier for people to view.

This post is for explaining the basics, and the second post is going to have the bonus game cuts and stuff that remains on the schedule that looks debatable.

I'm aware that this is not going to be a happy time for people, and I know that most people worked hard on their runs. At least 60-70 hours of the 90 hours cut is legitimate marathon material, but with a list full of such strong material, I couldn't let everything in. I don't like cutting all of this, but it has to be done.

People are probably curious about the method I used for round 2 cuts, and it's actually a new method I haven't used in previous marathons, and it actually worked quite well.

The Method

The people who I confer with and I submitted a list of cuts, and we went everyone's cuts and why they cut them, and whether we agreed or disagreed. This process took about 5 hours on the first day (and 2 hours on the followup day), but it was very thorough and we did a good job of covering nearly everything on the schedule and why it should or shoudln't be there.

Anyway, a lot of you probably want to see what's still on the schedule, so here you go.

I'm not going to go over the cuts and the reasons in this post because there's a separate tab for that. If you're too lazy to find the cuts tab then click here.

Some questions people might have:

Q: When will the schedule be made?

A: Either late September or early October. There's generally a couple of people who drop out during this month, and that might free up the schedule a bit, and even let me add some games I cut.

Q: Are bonus games games for the bonus stream?

A: No, they're games that can be donated into the schedule like SotN was this SGDQ.

Q: Speaking of games you cut, is there any chance that games that were cut second round will have a chance of making it back on the schedule?

A: Yes, I try to use stuff from the cuts tab first if there's a hole in the schedule.

Q: There's still a lot of races and/or runners for a particular game are all of those races and/or runners going to remain?

A: No, they're not all going to remain in the end, but I'm going to see who is most well-equipped to run said game, and whether there are people near said person's skill level.

Q: Are you still taking suggestions?

A: Unless if I specifically ask, no, and there's not a high chance I'll ask.
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Edit history:
mikwuyma: 2013-09-07 02:18:19 pm
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Restructured/reduced games

There were some games I thought were worth having on the list, but with the limited amount of space we have, there was no chance I could keep them intact. The games/series are still on the schedule, albeit in reduced form or modified.

Age of Empires 2: I know this game was pretty popular back in the day, but I don't know how that holds up now. We also have 4 hours of Starcraft II, so I have a hard time justifying over an hour, but I do think trying a scenario is a good way to test the waters.

Blast Corps race: Graviton and PEACHES_ are also great at any%, and the list is crowded as is, but I didn't want to kill the race, so I decided on an any% race as a compromise.

Crash Bandicoot games: I turned this into a bid war because there's no way I'm going to have all three games on the schedule. Also, I reduced Crash 1 100% to any% because I know CaneOfPacci is also good at any%, and 100% Crash is too long for what it is.

Doom games: We had both Doom 1 and Doom 2 last AGDQ, and while they both did well, we have a lot of other great FPS games on the list. Turning Doom 1 and Doom 2 into a bid war would both cut down on a bit of time while raising donations, and Dime, Kubelwagon, and Shadowwraith would have a game regardless (sorry Vortale).

Metal Gear Rising: New Game + does have more skips, but the combat is also trivial, and new game + runs have had poor reactions in the past (jrdq AoS and this year's DMC3). I think new game hard is the better choice.

Metroid Zero Mission: I think this game is worth running, but I'm not sold on low%. It's definitely a challenge, but I'm not entirely sure it's a good watch. The bosses are a slog with the limited amount of missiles and deaths can cost minutes. I think 100% would be the better watch.

Pokemon something: I decided on Pokemon Heart Gold. Some people might be shocked that I dropped Pokemon Blue 151, but it's honestly a gigantic logistical headache.

Just think about people processing donations for 90+ pokemon (honestly most of which I don't think people care about) and the stress it would mean. I know I would just give up and say no.

I know the pokemon names did well for leaf green at SGDQ, but that's because there were only 2 or 3 to donate for, which meant people could focus on the ones they liked, not 90+, which is simply overwhelming.

I heard that Pokemon Heart Gold is a better run than Crystal, if I see evidence otherwise, then I'll reconsider.

Resident Evil 4: I decided on Sunblade because he has the records.

Star Fox 64: Some people brought up the issue with me that a high score run of this game would look out of place in a speedrun marathon. I agree, but I also think it's worth trying a high score run, because it would look impressive to people who know the game (and there's a lot of them) so what we agreed on was a bid war between speedrun and high score.

Super Meat Boy: We did 106% last year, and we have a lot of good any% runners, so I think a pc race for any% is worth doing. The most painful part is picking the runners because Vorpaledge, imysty, and andre are all great. I do think PC 106% should be considered in a future marathon if someone really good at it like Takujiuz can come.

Bonus Game cuts

There were some games on the bonus game list that I didn't think were likely to be donated in, or there were better choices. I did mention these games on the cut sheet, but they deserve to be mentioned here since not everyone pays attention to the bonus games.

Disney's Extreme Skate Adventure: It's just a THPS knockoff (It even uses the same engine), and there are better choices as bonus games.

Frogger: He's Back: I honestly think PJ and Flicky are on the short and long list of people who would be hype for this game to be on the schedule.

North and South: I don't think anyone really knows this game all that well.

Pokemon Puzzle Challenge: This is a better game than Pokemon Snap, but ironically Snap is a better bonus game choice because it's so off-beat and goofy (and would probably generate more hype and excitement).

Bonus Game additions

There were some games I thought would work better as bonus games than main schedule games, so these deserve to be mentioned, since they weren't cut per se. In case if you're worried a bonus game won't make it onto the schedule,  every single bonus game that has been offered in a marathon has made its donation goal.

Minecraft: Honestly, this run isn't the best watch, but the game does have a huge following. Might as well let people donate for it if they really want. The goal needs to be high for notch-proofing (though that might not be possible).

Skyrim: I watched some of Wymorn's record run. Is it better than chrno's run? Definitely. Is it more entertaining or a lot different than Chrno's run? Not really. Aside from climbing the mountain with the horse (which was definitely funny) and skipping the council cutscene by saving and loading, I didn't see a whole lot that was different, you still go from point to point without much combat. The game is still popular so I think it's worth being donated into the schedule.

Controversial games still on the schedule/points of concern

Barkley: Shut up and Jam Gaiden!: If I cut this game I would cut my soul. Seriously, just play it.

Borderlands 2: Is this game popular? Yes, no denying that, it's also a pretty good watch, but it has the potential to be a logistical disaster. In the following weeks and months I need to know what PCs are being used for the run and whose screens we're capturing, and figure out where to put everything. If nothing is settled by the middle of October or early November, then I'm dropping this game because it has a lot of potential to be a disaster.

And I know I've said this before, but two displays maximum. Professorbroman said that's enough to display the action anyway.

DuckTales Remastered: There are still people working at this game seriously (radman, Satoryu, and George), and it looks like the game has some skips. I think this game will retain interest for the following months. The big thing is to see who is still running the game in a month.

Fire Emblem: Yeah I know I initially rejected this game, and I wasn't super sure after adding it again, but after doing some research, I think this game is worth the risk. I did some research and this game has a reddit with 6.6k subscribers (for those curious, Final Fantasy has about 20k) and there are numerous fansites, the largest of which, Serenes Forest, has an active forum. The FE community, while smaller, seems to be very passionate and fervent like FF and Zelda fans.

For those curious, I also decided to look at Star Ocean, since I cut Star Ocean 3 from SGDQ and there were some complaints about that. Star Ocean has no reddit (at least none I could find), and there are a couple of fansites but they all seem to be dead. Try googling Fire Emblem fansite and Star Ocean fansite and see what you find.

Golden Axe: I won't lie, this was on the border for cuts, but it's short and a funny watch (knocking enemies off cliffs is amusing). The game also pairs well with Dungeons and Dragons: Shadows Over Mystara.

Kabuki Quantum Fighter: I won't lie, this game is pretty obscure, but it's a good watch, and more importantly, SMK saved the marathon last AGDQ. When chipin went down, he made his own chipin within 3 or 4 hours and fixed the tracker so people could donate again. The least I can do is give him a 15 minute game to play.

Ninja Gaiden Master System/Ninja Five-O: Are these games more on the obscure side? Yes, but Ninja Gaiden Master System has the Ninja Gaiden name going for it, and it's also a good watch. Ninja Five-O is more obscure, but it's an amazing watch if done well and pairs well with the Ninja Gaiden games.

Sonic 2: I'm aware that neither runner is really known at the game, and it doesn't help that Kiyura posted this tweet. However, this is the most popular Sonic, and I'll give the runners a chance to see if they can get in shape. If I don't see any progress (as in actual stream and video) in a month then I'm just cutting the game because I'd rather drop the game if it can't be run to the standard of previous marathons.

The Zelda games: Yeah, there's a lot of Zelda even after I cut it (about 3 hours more than last year), but I think the Zelda that remains on the schedule is strong. Since Zelda is one of our biggest series, I think it's worth going over each game and why it remains on the schedule (or why it was cut).

Zelda 1:

Pros: Second quest would be a good donation incentive. Screen scroll glitch is cool.

Cons: Already done at SGDQ. Compared to other Zeldas it's one of the weaker picks (not as much interest or donations as other games). Honestly, it's also unlikely that DW can come, which would mean no race.

It's a good Zelda game, but it doesn't fare up against other Zeldas on the schedule.

Zelda II:

Pros: Pro_JN is better than Feasel at this game. More action-y than other Zeldas

Cons: Did poorly donations-wise last SGDQ. Been done at the last three marathons and the donations, if nothing else, suggest that people are getting tired of this game. Also one of the weaker Zeldas compared to what's being offered.

I know Pro_JN is amazing at this game, but we have a lot of other Zelda runners who are also the best or close to the best at their game (Pheenoh, ZFG, and Giuocob). Also the donations dropped from $122/min at AGDQ to $15 at SGDQ, which makes me wary of having it again.

A Link to the Past:

Pros: Game always does well in marathons, in terms of viewership, reactions, and donations. People always love this game.

Cons: It's been done a lot, but interest in the game does not seem to be fading. Solidus isn't quite on Jadin's level, but his PB is still very good.

I think this game is worth having, overdoing this game is a concern, but it's always been a hit at marathons and there's nothing suggesting that its momentum is dying.

Link's Awakening DX:

Pros: Hasn't been done in a while (3 years), the level of play has increased and the game has new tech. Also the glitched any% incentive is a nice short incentive that won't take up too much time. Had good reception in past marathons.

Cons: I honestly can't think of any except I guess alttp is a bit more well-liked among the 2D Zeldas.

I think it's time for this game to make its comeback.

Majora's Mask:

Pros: Hasn't been done in a while (2 years), new tricks, and the game has been becoming more popular thanks to runners like ennopp and GoronGuy.

Cons: None really.

Definitely worth doing, but I had to reduce the run to any% for time considerations. A different category like all masks is worth considering at a future marathon.

Oracle of Seasons+Ages

Pros: Bid war is a good incentive. Games are well-liked.

Cons: I would say it's on the less popular side of 2d Zeldas. Also MBM isn't a known runner for these games and I haven't seen much evidence of practice, and while that might not be a concern for a shorter game, it's definitely a concern for two games that are over 2 hours when speedrun. There's also a big time difference between speedruns of the game (I forgot the exact difference, but I think it's around an hour).

The Oracle games are worth considering for a future marathon, but we'll need more well-practiced runner(s) for the games, and they look a bit weak compared to some of the other games offered.

Ocarina of Time:

Pros: It's pretty much the most popular Zelda ever. Has a lot of tricks and categories. ZFG and Moltov are both good runners.

Cons: We've been running it a lot.

Even though we've had this game in a lot of marathons, there's nothing suggesting that it's running out of steam. We've also run different categories every marathon this game has been present (except for the most recent SGDQ). I'm not seeing any evidence that says people are getting tired of this game, so it's worth doing all dungeons.

If anyone is wondering about bingo, here's my thoughts.

I think Bingo is a good idea for bonus stream, but too confusing for the main marathon. You don't even end at the final boss.

Skyward Sword:

Pros: Hasn't been done before in a marathon. Has some nice tricks like Back in Time.

Cons: Back in Time glitch is not the greatest watch and it's not as trick-heavy as the other 3D Zeldas, and the bird auto-scrollers are also not great watches. The game is also quite long and it's not a 3D Zelda favorite.

Honestly, This game is probably the weakest 3D Zelda. That being said, I think it's worth reconsidering this game for another marathon, just not this one.

Twilight Princess:

Pros: Has lots of good tricks, Pheenoh is the best (or one of the best at the game) at the game, and the all dungeons category is a good donation incentive.

Cons: It was just done at SGDQ, and quite prominently as the finale.

I won't lie, this was on the border of cuts, but this is a pretty strong game in its own right, and all dungeons is a good donation incentive.

Wind Waker:

Pros: This game gets a lot of stream viewers, and has a good amount of tricks. The HD remake is coming out, which will bring in more interest.* Also, as much as no one likes to admit it, there's no denying Cosmo's popularity (and he's one of the best, even if Demon9 just took his record).

Cons: It was just done last AGDQ and there's not a whole lot new going on (some route stuff and super swims as far as I can tell).

*I'm aware that overall the Wii U's sales have been poor, but at the same time, we have a lot of Nintendo fans in our stream, so I think the hype for the HD remake is still there.

Mike, I am profoundly infuriated by your fucking decision to cut E.T. The Game. I have put countless seconds of practice in it and I think it is an extremely entertaining watch. It only takes 28h and every 10-15h is full of action (and/or glitches). It is easily the best jumpnrun that was offered and there is a(n) drunken community to back me up on this. Furthermore, it hasn't been in a GDQ since SGDQ 2013!

To make things worse, you let in Ocarina of Time. Of all the shit games how could you let in that offensive penis? pheenoh is clearly a boring commentator and the practice he has put in is far less worthy than my own. You have left me beyond a mountain, so I can no longer hide the fact that I am zfg and have my whole life ahead of me to make you pay for this personal offense and I will kill the dongers.
Sad my game got cut, and I'd argue that it is and can be entertaining, especially with the new stuff, but I'm not salty about it :). I'm still fairly new at running, so I appreciate you guys even taking it into consideration. Looking forward to AGDQ.
Quote from Fino1man:
Mike, I am profoundly infuriated by your fucking decision to cut E.T. The Game. I have put countless seconds of practice in it and I think it is an extremely entertaining watch. It only takes 28h and every 10-15h is full of action (and/or glitches). It is easily the best jumpnrun that was offered and there is a(n) drunken community to back me up on this. Furthermore, it hasn't been in a GDQ since SGDQ 2013!

To make things worse, you let in Ocarina of Time. Of all the shit games how could you let in that offensive penis? pheenoh is clearly a boring commentator and the practice he has put in is far less worthy than my own. You have left me beyond a mountain, so I can no longer hide the fact that I am zfg and have my whole life ahead of me to make you pay for this personal offense and I will kill the dongers.

I know you're being facetious, but ET is actually there. It's in the bonus games.
I assume it was a joke post based on Mapler's template from the other thread.
professional speed gamer
I was planning on doing exactly that, but he beat me to it.
Fucking Weeaboo
Welp, 3 GDQs in a row where all my games got cut, 2nd time in a row during Round 2. I'm gonna go cry. #Salt
I'd like to offer to race AdamAK at Ninja Gaiden Master System. I know I should've offered earlier, but it's looking like I'm going to be able to go to AGDQ2014, and I think it would bring more attention to an obscure but really good game. I'm the current WR at Ninja Gaiden Master System by the way.
aka theenglishman
Congrats to sunblade for securing RE4.  I'm totally up for doing couch commentary on Metal Gear Solid, RE4 and God of War II.

(I'm also hoping for Papo y Yo (PC) and 50 Cent: Blood on the Sand (360) for bonus stream, but I'll worry about that later.)
The Loony Bin
Quote from Sir VG:
Welp, 3 GDQs in a row where all my games got cut, 2nd time in a row during Round 2. I'm gonna go cry. #Salt

You're not alone dude :(. BibleThump

At least there's Bonus Stream I guess.
Halo 2 Legendary is 2 hours of ball-busting action.
Half-Life 2 is 1h25m of action and 40 min of cutscenes.

In a stacked list of FPSes, I think Halo 2 is the far better watch.
Even though I run Pikmin 1, I have to agree that Pikmin 3 is a stronger choice for the marathon.  It has many more tricks that make it a more entertaining watch and Miles is obviously a super capable runner.  I'm happy that one of the two games made it in.  If I'm able to come, I would be glad to help with commentary, but that's currently a big if.
may use a few too many Kappas
Aaaand the Puzzle League hype is gone. Sad  Shame, but Pokémon Snap would still generate excitement. I hope we get to see it.
aka theenglishman
Hmm, not much of a salt mine this year is it?
Good stuff. Thanks for keeping nin5o in, I'll be busting my ass to make it a really impressive run even for the 95% of people that have never heard of it.
Edit history:
UraniumAnchor: 2013-09-07 01:58:41 pm
Not a walrus
Quote from qubit:
Hmm, not much of a salt mine this year is it?

Give it time.

Alternately, don't try to stoke the fires? Tongue
Edit history:
thadarkman78: 2013-09-07 01:59:10 pm
I guess the means one thing: I will have to break out MM5 for SGDQ and bring along with it MM6. Is the world prepared for this? Who knows, time will tell.

Not really sure I'm getting the Sunshine rejection. I can understand why you'd want to cut Sunshine, but the reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. Sunshine IIRC started at like 2AM MDT on a Sunday Night/Monday Morning, basically the absolute worst time for donations because everyone is basically asleep.
Edit history:
qubit: 2013-09-07 02:01:19 pm
aka theenglishman
I'm not stoking the fires, man.  I don't want the salting any more than you do :/
For reference, my plan for 151 was always to have the nickname written on trading cards prior to the run, and then have those as a donation prize for the run too, so there would be no name asking + another cool tie in. I also think some people would really like to just donate for whatever their favourite pokemon is, and I find it interesting that the reason for not including it is ~too many incentives~

Heart Gold is a much, much more entertaining run than Crystal (and arguably more than 151 too) but I feel 151 would be more enjoyable to the casual viewer + pokemon lover, and if the DS setups have been any indication in the past, would definitely be a better watch (and I'd have a lot more fun with it too)
Edit history:
Paradox Karl: 2013-09-07 02:16:00 pm
I really don't understand the reasoning for having pokemon heartgold over 151 pokemon blue. You say that there would be problems processing donations for naming 90+ pokemon, but surely the most obvious thing to do is limit naming to just the rival and a few pokemon that are used throughout the majority of the run (mew and gengar? also maybe trainer name, although I know the trainer name is used to mainpulate a few pokemon, those pokemon are still catchable by other slightly slower means).

Also, the sunshine reason makes no sense. As thadarkman said, the run at SGDQ was at a horrible time (alongside being after a whole bunch of really popular games and a lot of people were probably tired of watching streams for hours apon hours after sm64, metriod, alttp etc.) so obviously it wouldn't do as well as other games at better times.

Also, 8 mega man games and 6 zelda games and 6 2d mario games seems a bit excessive.

Would have really like to have seen halo 2 and banjo tooie also but what can you do :/

Also no sm64 because siglemic isn't there? 99% of people couldn't tell the difference between a 49 and a 53 in 70 star or a 1:44 and a 1:50 in 120 star so I think that is pretty bad reasoning.
The Dork Knight himself.
Well, even though Arkham Asylum got cut, I think my computer is still gonna take the ride with me so I can get it into the Bonus Stream (maybe even VTMB too).
aka theenglishman
Oh yeah, that's another thing about computers.  My bootcamped Mac isn't exactly portable.  On the off-chance that Papo y Yo gets on bonus stream, would I be able to use someone else's PC?
I can't be too upset about Jungle Beat being cut. It's not a very popular game, even though it IS a very entertaining watch, and I have been working on this run for about 3 years now.

As for Pikmin, I would have to agree that Pikmin 3 is better than Pikmin 1 for a marathon like this. Pikmin 3 has a lot more cool sequence breaks, Pikmin 1 basically just has one glitch, that's actually really minor.