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nothing has been done yet; thats your update.
I'd say come back in a few years and see again.
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2011-04-26 09:36:04 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-04-26 09:34:27 pm
Don't think!  feeeeeal
Quad and I have been talking a lot about HL, earlier today our discussion lead me to try out some stuff and I found a break-through new strategy that will save over 5s which is monumental in this day and age.  Not going to release a video for this one, I want there to be some more incentive to anticipation and watch the run.

Speaking of the run, we could start running any second, the earlier stuff isn't changing it seems and stuff done pre-mugging-sequence shouldn't affect miner tweaks near the end of the run.

We really just need a polished mod tailored to speedrunning.  I'm going to pitch it to valve, their HQ is like 20 minutes from my place.  I figure they could bundle it with a game, like they do with EP1,2,and3, and do a $5 stand alone.  Should take them much less effort than EP 1,2,3.  I'm basically doing most of the marketing for them as well.

Edit history:
grndino: 2011-04-26 10:22:22 pm
Quote from Spider-Waffle:
We really just need a polished mod tailored to speedrunning.


I'm going to pitch it to valve

Wait, what?

The reason for this would be so that SDA recognizes it as an official game worthy of their run list, yes.
This will sound condescending but valve would probably consider that beneath them.  Or to the side of them, in a completely different trajectory than where they're going.
And modding a popular game to get a faster time under the title of Popular Game: The Mod seems like a completely different direction than the community here usually goes.  You know Demonstrate, his run modded the portal gun to have a logo on it, got some flack for that.
The current HL run is already modded, I think so that the speed isn't capped, or in some way to make it more like an earlier patch, or something.  You could argue that since it was allowed back then, why not allow a slightly different mod.  Uyama I think is looking in the direction of not letting runs get accepted under grandfathered rules, and you can see why: lots of politics just to confuse things more.

I've already talked your ear off, but people like long speeches around here I think.

You know when you watch a TAS, and you're like, yeah, but meh.  Scripts and mods are like 33% of that feeling.  I don't get so excited about it, as a viewer, as I do a run that's in the same environment I played the game in.
A Crab
The chances that you are going to get Valve to work on a project like this are astronomically slim. What you'll hear from them is "Great. Why don't you go make a mod to do that?" There's no market and no financial incentive for Valve to work on this. They are busy working on games that sell millions of copies. This is a project that would appeal to dozens at best.
Iha paska
Uhh... no?

FPS changes already break the game. Scripts are close to TAS-like gameplay like was mentioned above.
And when I mean "break the game" it does change things a lot more than just bhopping.
(All realtime, no demoplayback).
I recall some crates and other pushable objects being affected as well.

Not that I want to kill the run or anything, but I just don't agree with all the modifications. Smiley
Isn't speedrunning about running the game like an average person would set it up / configure instead of using all kinds of quirks / engine manipulation to achieve what you want to.. It sounds like a TAS to me at that point.
Edit history:
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-04-27 02:46:04 am
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-04-27 02:44:08 am
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-04-27 02:43:43 am
grndino: seeing as SW has already said he'll be using scripts, I don't think this has anything to do with getting accepted at SDA.

Quote from RandomEngy:
The chances that you are going to get Valve to work on a project like this are astronomically slim. What you'll hear from them is "Great. Why don't you go make a mod to do that?" There's no market and no financial incentive for Valve to work on this. They are busy working on games that sell millions of copies. This is a project that would appeal to dozens at best.

This. There is seriously no way you will get Valve's help with this.

Also, I don't really understand why you would want to get Valve to make the mod instead of someone else. A while back someone Rayvex was saying it was only a few hours minutes work anyway. What's your reason for going to Valve?
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2011-04-27 03:17:10 am
Don't think!  feeeeeal
I want to do what I can to help popularize speedrunning, and grow the HL speedrunning community, I feel if there was a mainstream mod you could just get off steam or on valve's website that was exactly what all the world's best speedrunners were using to make their infamous videos everyone's seen on youtube then more people would DL the small mod and try their hand at speedrunning.  I want to make it friendly to newer players and offer instructional videos on how to do certain techniques and make your own scripts as well as provide sample scripts.  I mean, I still get people messaging me and adding me to friends on facebook asking for bhop help and scripts 6 years after my last HL run was released.

I think there's a lot of people that want to get into HL speedrunning but the learning curve is great and there's a monumental amount of config and HL engine stuff you need to understand.  I want to make all these things as easy and available as possible for everyone, so basically anyone can do what we do without enough practice and nothing more.

I also feel a lot of people don't appreciate what we do as much because it's much different from how they always played the game, but had they been as heavily involved with all the world class gamers as us and taken the time learn tons of stuff about HL engine, configs, scripts, ect..  ; they would have played these games exactly like we do.  So my goal is make the way we play HL more of the standard way so people will accept, understand and appreciate our speedruns more.  Because right now there's a large disconnect between us and the average gamer.  I want to build a bridge for the average gamer to come join us, it's actually really nice on the other side of the barrier, you'll never go back Cheesy
I can't add much to this discussion, but I must point out that Valve are unwilling to support their existing products apart from the current AAA FPS (i.e. TF2 or Portal 2). Even the assistance given to modders is a far cry short of what was given historically. I'd like to imagine that if you approach them with a simple enough request, someone would indulge you, but unless you happen upon someone with the same predilections as you, who is willing (and able) to personally volunteer, it really is far-fetched and fanciful idea.

Yes, you are pushing the limits of the game in ways which would take the average gamer too long to get into, but does that not make it all the more impressive? And does the average gamer even care? Do they have the skill anyway? Do they have the persistence? I doubt it.

I offered to do the modding for this project months ago, but I don't have any time to do it now... I do hope you get to put all your hard work into action soon...
A Crab
The barrier to entry for Half-Life speedrunning for the average gamer is not how the engine works or what scripts to run. It's that a few people are light years ahead of you on a competitive activity, and it would take a monumental amount of practice to build up the necessary muscle memory to even get close. Hell, I spent months speedrunning this game and I really don't feel like I could even contribute anything worthwhile. What do you think it looks like for someone who doesn't even know how to bunnyhop?

Look, if you really want to mod up the game to make it behave how you want to, do it. You also have the option of running a vanilla version of the game in the way that people can relate to. Really, it won't be the end of the world to just run an old version of the game. What I don't think will work is convincing everybody that scripting and modding the game to make it go faster is the real way to play. Half-Life speedrunning is a very niche hobby.
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2011-04-28 05:13:42 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-04-28 05:10:22 am
Spider-Waffle: 2011-04-27 10:25:27 pm
Don't think!  feeeeeal
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, what I'm trying to do is let the people that want to cross the barrier cross the barrier and see for themselves.  Judging by all the PMs, FB messages, friend requests, e-mails, magazine interviews, youtube messages, people making accounts just to post on this forum and ask about HL speedrunning, and just the shear the number of people that watch the speedruns and know my name and seem very enthused about it; there's probably quite a bit of people that want to try.  The greatest barrier by far is the lack of convenient available resources and medium for people to learn and practice, not acquiring muscle memory.  Any of the 10s of millions of gamers that have played first person shooters for over a 1000 hours of their life, or millions of gamers that have been playing HL mods for the last 12 years regularly would be able to pick it and be pretty good fairly fast if this was available to them.

Run time has been updated, includes delay load savings (7s thus far), keeping more speed in office complex, and new 6s,3s,3s and 30s time savers found in last 48 hours.
A Crab
The number of gamers that have been playing HL mods with bunnyhopping in them for the past 12 years does not even get close to a million. People that fit that category and are interested in playing a single-player game over and over again can hardly be thought of as "average gamers".

But this is a fine idea. Make a wiki with articles about scripts, techniques and shortcuts. Make your speedrunning mod. You'll probably get more people interested in it. But HL speedrunning is not for your average gamer and I find the idea that you'll get Valve to make and sell your speedrunning mod for you to be quite far fetched.

Maybe you could get the mod officially hosted and available via Steam (like Natural Selection), though I don't know their criteria for doing that.

Anyway good work on finding all that new stuff. A 30 second time saver, very interesting.
Edit history:
oasiz: 2011-04-29 09:11:42 am
Iha paska
I just don't agree with the bhop mod and stuff that much.
I mean, is there an vanilla ancient HL version that has the speed cap removed or was that just modified to make the game easier ? Nothing personal, just asking Smiley

Scripts are something I can somehow deal with but It's basically tool-assisted at that point. You are doing superhuman tricks with pre-scripted stuff.
Not to mention the FPS changes like I mentioned above.

Seems to affect HP door as well, one tick per frame. Go to n value and you get n ticks per second. (The only map that has that phenomenon btw, dmg value set to -1 and I grepped all the HL1 maps with negative values)

I have destroyed the game a lot myself so I kinda have crossed that "barrier" what you mean Smiley
I do agree with the documentation and that it should be done, if you get a page up I can help you with a lot of the skips I know at the moment (some alternate routes that aren't used in the 31min run for example).
Having studied the technicalities of a lot of stuff trough the editor itself, I can kinda explain the reasons behind a lot of stuff. Some stuff is really complicated for a newbie so I agree that the lack of documentation will put a lot of people off from running this game.

But hey, even if the run gets more TAS like (again, my opinion), I am all for it. I would love to see how the game gets destroyed with closer to theoretical limits / superhuman gameplay!
Svart Lyser Tronen
I really like the new topic title Grin You're all going to shit your pants when you see the new 30s saver.

Quote from oasiz:
I just don't agree with the bhop mod and stuff that much.
I mean, is there an vanilla ancient HL version that has the speed cap removed or was that just modified to make the game easier ? Nothing personal, just asking :)!

HL had un-capped bhop until patch 1108 in Sep 19, 2001. hlspbunny mod was only made to maintain this feature.
Edit history:
droogie: 2011-04-29 10:28:08 am
hello, world!
I agree with the fact that the segmented to hell/scripted runs are interesting, but I wouldn't go as far as calling them impressive. They are TAS in my opinion... especially when it comes down to FPS manipulation for push triggers, jumps, weapons, less damage, etc. It's blatantly cheated. The modding idea is just ridiculous though and same with the negative attitude towards SDA. The rules that have been placed make sense (granted there might have to be specifics for different games but in general).

As for the average gamer ordeal... I completely agree with RandomEngy. I also believe that a lot of people find your 31 minute run impressive until they see that it is 180+ segments. Half-Life needs a standard which in my opinion should be Single Segment... one of the most impressive runs I've ever seen is "DOOM II - # Best Single-segment time, Nightmare skill: 0:29:56 by Drew 'stx-Vile' DeVore". You guys take it too far when a 3 minute run of the hazard course has like 9 segments... really? Once again I suppose it's interesting and sometimes a good watch... but it's ridiculous. I think a run that would appeal to more gamers would be a run that is basically the same game that they played and is realistically possible (SS+scriptless) but then you hit the learning curve. It's the same issue that Quad, Stripe and I run into with AG... people try it out but don't want to put in the time to get to that skill level.

While working on my SS run lately I have found some little routes that are nice, but would only be good for an extreme segmented run like the one you're planning. I'll help you guys with your project, but I wouldn't expect this run to be published on SDA. I was actually talking to oasiz about how I was planning on tossing up an hl related site (anybody remember skc? ;D) that also had tricks, routes, scripts, info, etc... It would be cool to get together and get that up and running, I'm sure quad and you would have lots of interesting additions for it. As for the 30 second time saver.... should be sexy. Good job to whoever found it. ( i hope it's not from a trigger delay... :/)
hello, world!
Here's a cute little route that I've been taking in c1a0b. I'm not sure how much time it saves (if any), but I do it anyways cause it's something different.

(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2011-04-29 12:52:35 pm
Spider-Waffle: 2011-04-29 12:52:20 pm
Don't think!  feeeeeal
Ya I like the idea of a website, scourceruns is already pretty good though, maybe could just make that better.  You should talk to us/me on aim, skype, or FB sometime.

Fun fact:
Were it not for the combination of counterstrike, it's popularity, and enough lazy, lame, lesser gamers complaining about getting pwned by bhopers in CS, HL to this day wouldn't have a jump speed cap... So this is why I feel it is complete and utter insanity and outright asinine to ever even consider speedrunning HL with a jump cap... END DISCUSSION
hello, world!
Sure, I have none of your info but I'll pm you my skype. When the patch went into affect it only really mattered to hldmers(at the time), thus the move to Adrenaline Gamer. Not that long ago Valve updated counter-strike to remove Russian walking exploit but due to a community uproar they redacted it. If you could convince them to remove the cap and the freeze after level load... it would be awesome. Just very unlikely, like said earlier they would probably respond with "mod it yourself". If you explained the situation of needing an official patch for the speed run project you might get somewhere... but i doubt it. Anyways, yea let's end that discussion it's getting stale.

Oasiz and I have some temp stuff setup for the site, we can talk more about it and start discussing tricks/routes and insight into those tricks. (also easter eggs and just funny tricks/bugs, not all speed tricks Cheesy )

There are some other things (but I think only one of them might be useful, for the others you probably have other routes) I'll post some more clips within the next couple days (hopefully tonight)
Edit history:
oasiz: 2011-04-29 02:11:51 pm
oasiz: 2011-04-29 02:10:44 pm
Iha paska
Yeah, setting up a wiki at
This will take a day or two, I will probably have the basic stuff operational in a few hours if all goes well.

I will first be adding random some Stuff I've discovered.
Once this gets set up, anyone is free to contribute.

oh and you can catch me on irc by nickname oasiz on ircnet, qnet or freenode.
Edit history:
quadrazid: 2011-04-29 05:40:41 pm
Svart Lyser Tronen
Quote from droogie:
Here's a cute little route that I've been taking in c1a0b. I'm not sure how much time it saves (if any), but I do it anyways cause it's something different.

Small, but neat trick, good job!
And some kind of HL-wiki sounds great indeed.

Quote from droogie:
when it comes down to FPS manipulation for push triggers, jumps, weapons, less damage, etc. It's blatantly cheated.

I wouldn't say changing fps is a cheat, it's a simple cvar, anyone can easily change it to whatever they want. In my opinion, it's only serverside cvar changes that is cheating, those which is intended to make changes (sv_gravity airaccelerate maxspeed ect.)
It's not our fault that the game has useful glitches at some fps, just like any other glitch.
EDIT; Like the good ol' quake rules:
quick summary: anything that you are able to change if you where playing on a online server is ok to change.
hello, world!
Hehe thanks. There's a couple more I'll toss up soon.

I got the domain we're going to name the site/wiki "The Documents of Black Mesa", we should have it up and running soon (don't bother visiting the url's we'll alert when it's ready). Initially it will just be a wiki, eventually it will be a site and we'll have

Your argument actually holds water, generally I would respond with any cvars available under developer 0, but I'm still not completely sure how I feel on the situation. So far my entire runs basis has been single segment+scriptless at a stable 100fps, it will probably stay the same... but that's my run, not this project so I suppose I'm open to more ideas. Tongue
A Crab
FPS manipulation isn't a cheat, but it seems a bit fishy since no version of HL ever had uncapped bunnyhopping and let you push FPS sky-high. Mixing and matching engine quirks from different versions is basically equivalent in my mind to modding the game to meet your needs. But if everyone on the running team is on board with that set of modifications, then go for it. Just be aware that a strong case can be made that the end result won't really be a run of Half-Life.
hello, world!
Here's a POC video I tossed together for a different elevator drop in blast pit. I showed a couple different ways to do it... the first two are from getting caught on the wall/pipe and slowing down falling speed. The third & last, are from hitting the pipe at the angle and taking damage (usually 3-8) and it knocks you off the pipe. I successfully did it in the third one, the last one is a noclip'd version showing exactly what I did ONCE and haven't been able to do it again... but it knocked me off the pipe toward the hallway and I kept speed while hopping down it. The grenade thing I added in the end is extremely unrealistic but w/e Tongue

Edit history:
droogie: 2011-04-29 09:54:54 pm
hello, world!
Here's the last part of xen, I do a satchel boost... you guys use nade/ar. I find the satchel more reliable, not sure which is faster. If you don't bother using the satchels with gonarch battle (not needed, rpg/ar combo is sexy) and you use 5 trips/ar/nades to break the ground, you'll have enough satchels in this area. It's possible to do it with two satchels (which i use now) but when i made the vid i never tried that. So essentially, 5 trips, 3 satchels and a couple ar would take care of gonarch floor and allow this route. But like I said... the grenade/ar combo might be faster for this project...

Oh, and you don't need to drop them where I did, you can drop them while climbing out of the vent and once you hit the ground you can shoot yourself up. That way then it's possibly faster than grenade/ar? But you'll have to make the gonarch ground break just as fast...
hello, world!
This is a cliffside/tank alt-route that I did for a little while... until I saw quad successfully use a different slope ( which I never hit right until I saw how he was doing it Cheesy ). His route makes this one obsolete, but I'm just posting it anyways, regardless of speed it's nice to see alt-routes/easter eggs/bugs imo

hello, world!
Here's a boost that oasiz found in residue processing... after talking to quad about it, it might be useless for your route (you guys just hop through anyways?) I think it's awesome for SS route, I use it at least... the extra hp/hev would be nice for qethics, but w/e. (ignore the retards on skype Smiley )