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arkarian: 2013-09-19 08:06:02 pm
arkarian: 2013-09-19 07:42:53 pm
ah ok cool, yeah i re-did several stages so might want to check the playlist to make sure you didn't miss any others:

btw the time saved between the two rollanratl strats is ~13 seconds, if you're curious

ah just heard you mention you haven't played wario world—that game gets a lot of flak, and while it's got its problems, i actually really liked it. it's pretty different from the rest of the series though, so i wouldn't consider it a wario land game.
Edit history:
arkarian: 2013-09-19 09:22:14 pm
arkarian: 2013-09-19 08:27:46 pm
one more note: in airytale castle, i don't think it's faster to wait for the bandinero to drop, then bounce off it to reach the walkway. i know i knew of the alternate route when i did my run, and i'm 99% sure i timed both routes frame-by-frame and determined the upper route is faster. basically, earthshake punches waste a lot of time.

by an eyeball comparison of your run with my il, mine takes around 6 seconds (from ~0:19.5–0:25.8) from entering the room to hitting the switch, while yours takes around 8-9 seconds (from ~1:23:47.1–1:23:55.8). it looks like you lost a bit of time though, and the difference is minuscule in the end, but for what it's worth i think going up and around is easier.

nice shortcut right after the dasherator in that stage btw!
SEGA Junkie
Quote from arkarian:
one more note: in airytale castle, i don't think it's faster to wait for the bandinero to drop, then bounce off it to reach the walkway. i know i knew of the alternate route when i did my run, and i'm 99% sure i timed both routes frame-by-frame and determined the upper route is faster. basically, earthshake punches waste a lot of time.

You're correct, it's not. I ran the tests on it myself and found it to be a second or two slower, so have reverted back to the old method. Mostly I just really like trying out interesting strats. Tongue
Edit history:
arkarian: 2013-09-19 10:07:24 pm
ohh i thought i was watching the latest run you streamed, yeah never mind me. Smiley

watching your run makes me miss playing this game though ;(
SEGA Junkie
New record: 1:32:46. Get on my level.

Arkarian was in chat today and ran me through a few more (probably more minor) strats. I didn't get all of them into the run, they're not quite in my muscle memory yet.

This might be spoilerish, but here's stuff I still need to add to this run:
Run-Down Pyramid - slide when going under overhang of last outside room, fall on second dasherator instead of bouncing off the wall
Wreck Train - hit left after the third ball throw so the ball bounces away instead of catching it?
Slipshod Slopes - land in between the two enemies under the first avalanche, pick up the enemy on the right and take it to the left before the snow falls. Also obviously the runback was atrocious.
Large Fry - caught the second bomb rather than running under it, decided to just take what I could out of the strategy.
Scumflower - terrible fight, got ruined by the invincibility lasting a second longer than it's supposed to... twice.
Shake King - After Scumflower you can actually reset and skip the cutscenes leading into the Shake King fight. This will save 20-25 seconds. Worthwhile?
Go all out with the resets and skip those cutscenes.

Also I would've loved to race with you but my internet was down the entire day (and it's still down; I'm using my school's internet) -___-''
Edit history:
mike89: 2013-09-21 08:22:58 am
mike89: 2013-09-21 08:17:56 am
SEGA Junkie
Just made yet another change to the coin route. This should be the final one though (famous last words, of course).

* Two silver coins in Sweet Stuff (these always did strike me as kind of slow)
* First G bag in Stonecarving City
* Three silver coins in Wreck Train runback (3.9 seconds for 1500 coins... just outside the acceptable range)

* First G bag in Glittertown (5k, 11 seconds to get, won't be variable because the room it's in is set up on the fountain cycles)

The coin route is attached once more. The key sheets are sheet 3 (which lists the coins in game order) and "4 last" (which lists the coins in order of time per 1000). One thing you'll notice is the world 3 limit is SUPER tight - like, 351080 (80 over the requirement!). At this point, it's pretty reasonable to suggest that the variance in coins between runs should be pretty minimal, and therefore such a small buffer is reasonable. But, since world 3 has very stable coin counts in all stages, you can use the coin count at the end of area 2 to check the pace, and if you're behind (you'd want to have 144300 or better out of area 2) then just pick up a gold coin in the bouncy room of Wreck Train to compensate.

EDIT: The last gold coin in the bouncy room of Wreck Train is, in fact, basically free - it certainly costs no more than a second to get if you do the rest of the room right. So the coin route should be pretty safe. Smiley (Now I don't have to worry about that damn 500 in the top right corner of Just Plains...)
Decided to take a crack at routing all levels. Disturbing Tomb seems quite profitable.

Some of the coins here will probably be dropped. Disturbing Tomb has about 30k coins readily accessible, and Gurgle Gulch has about half that, so this should go way over the required 100k for unlocking World 3. Spillover coins aren't likely to be too necessary; even with no coins carried over, World 3 any% gets 150k of the 200k needed for World 5 on its own, and Neon City should add 100k alone or damn near it at a ridiculous efficiency rate. So there's not much point in overloading on coins in World 1. I'm thinking a lot of the gold bags from World 1 will become unnecessary for all levels because of not having the best coins-per-time efficiency; it's worthwhile in any%, but there are a lot of faster coins in all levels.
oh wow, i wonder if taking that upper route during the runback would be faster in an il ... looks like it would be pretty close
world 2's secret levels don't do too well in terms of coins. Sneak Peak has some free coins (first falling boulder part in particular, has two free gold coins and a near-free diamond), but lowdown depths kinda sucks.
Decided to just start doing runs. I can plan out this game after I learn my way around it.

Got an SS all levels time of 3:11. The run itself isn't worth posting, in all honesty, but I'm gonna stream more runs as I work up towards something moderately respectable.
SEGA Junkie

Getting closer to that really good run. Came SO CLOSE to the Large Fry one round Sad
man i SO wish i had had internet the last week, would have loved to watch you play live
SEGA Junkie
Got 1:30:51 tonight after a long layoff. Only three levels I'm upset with, and annoyingly two of them were in world 4. Sad

What upsets me more than that, though, is that I completely failed to ensure my batteries were charged, and so the entire second half of the run has that annoying low battery warning in the bottom left. Is it still worth uploading, even just to Youtube?
SEGA Junkie
Oh and since you can't add attachments with an edit... here's the latest version of the coin route. I haven't actually changed anything that I pick up, but I have changed the numbers a little to more closely reflect how my runs go now.

You'll notice that, at the key checkpoint (after world 3), I have 1200 more coins than I need. There's always a little bit of potential to lose coins (there's two particular G bags that I marked as real threats here) but it's also a buffer for mistakes. This run missed a large silver (500) that I prepare to get in Savannah Valley and had a rather poor Wavy Waters, but I still had 350 coins to spare.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2014-07-09 11:04:53 pm
Oh I should probably run this game again...

also holy crap 1:30:51

EDIT: I'd say at least upload it, unless you plan on grinding it out more Tongue I don't really care about the battery sound really, and it'll be a good reference for anyone who wants to learn the game.
Edit history:
mike89: 2014-07-11 01:02:06 am
SEGA Junkie
I ended up uploading it after all:

Still going to at least try to improve for a short while. If nothing else, that low battery warning bugs me to no end. (It starts at around 50 minutes - it's a miracle the run even finished!)
Edit history:
arkarian: 2014-07-19 06:15:41 pm
do either of you plan to stream your attempts? i'd love to watch more runs of this game
Quote from arkarian:
do either of you plan to stream your attempts? i'd love to watch more runs of this game

I'm considering offering this game for AGDQ2015. If it gets accepted, I'll be relearning the coin route mike89 laid out and streaming attempts Wink
SEGA Junkie
Honestly I don't think I'd accept it if I was part of the committee. It's a pretty slow paced game where the most impressive part of it is the optimisation of the route, which doesn't come across well in a live setting. Also, 1.5 hours Sad

Best stick to your inferior Metroids Wink
yeah it's one of those games i think you need to have played and maybe even speed run a bit in order to appreciate a run. not a lot of "tricks" just hella optimization.
Great run, Mike!

Shoutouts to ark, kirbymastah, and theOthin (and others, I'm sure) for continuing to work on this game after I stopped. This reminds me how fun it would be to watch an All Levels run. Maybe this will see time in another marathon some day.
i didn't know about the new run, so i'm glad you posted, flip.

congrats mike! really enjoyable watch.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2015-10-05 10:40:47 am
kirbymastah: 2015-10-05 10:22:48 am
kirbymastah: 2015-10-05 10:22:22 am
kirbymastah: 2015-10-05 10:21:43 am
kirbymastah: 2015-10-05 10:21:37 am
kirbymastah: 2015-10-05 10:21:17 am
kirbymastah: 2015-10-05 10:21:02 am
Necro bump

Did a little math and number crunching for 100%, and (as I suspected) meeting the minimum coin requirement for every coin mission gives me enough coins to make only 3 trips to the pirate shop:

1. Area 1 map after Aboard the Sweet Stuff
2. Area 2+3 maps after clearing Area 1
3. Area 4+5 maps after clearing Areas 2+3

The nice thing about this is that we don't really have to worry about getting extra coins for anything. There just isn't any point. So the routing in an individual level should not affect any strats in other levels (unless some glitch was found? IDK lmao). I suspected this but it's nice to confirm this.

A possible route is doing Area 4 after Area 1 (You end with a minimum of 196k coins after Area 1 + Tutorial), clear every level there 100%, then you have enough coins to buy the Areas 2+3+5 maps in one trip but this requires two more cursor movements in the pirate shop, so it's slower. In a RTA run, it might be worth doing this to get Area 4 earlier in the run (Launchpad Labyrinth...) but in a segmented setting, there's no point.

Speaking of which, I got back into doing any% RTA runs of this game and plan on offering it for AGDQ2016. Whether it gets in or not, I also want to start a 100% segmented run for this game (hence why I brought up 100%)

Flip's segmented run was replaced by mike89's RTA run, and I can't seem to find his old segmented run on archive nor youtube either. My question is, where does timing start and end for each segment? It seems to make sense to start timing upon file select (we should be counting menuing) and end timing upon the game's auto-save

If we're timing this way, then it means there's a minor time loss via menuing for each segment if I segment by level. I wasn't sure how flip's run was timed so yeahhhhh. I'd still rather segment by level since segmenting by area would just be... terrible (Creep Blue Sea 100% one trip and Launchpad Labyrinth 100% one trip says hi).

Either way, it doesn't matter for the first segment since it's the tutorial level and I'd want to end the segment after buying Area 1's map to skip the cutscene, so I'm going to start recording attempts tonight; pretty straightforward level so it should be easy.
Edit history:
mike89: 2015-10-05 04:33:30 pm
SEGA Junkie
If I understand the rules as they were at the time correctly, timing would have started upon regaining control, which would be the first menu screen, and it would end upon auto-save.

How many levels do you need to do twice in Area 1? Surely there's a good chance you could get an extra 4k coins on a second trip without going out of your way, and get Area 5 second, with enough coins there to unlock all the rest in one hit.