Roll Eyes
Lips Sealed
<- 123456789 ->
List results:
Search options:
Use \ before commas in usernames
Hard probably wasn't a good word. I'm sure it's overall easier than bouncing on him (the whole reason why I thought to try ground pounding was because I was too bad at getting the double bounce consistently). You just have to slightly time it because if you spam it, you'll hit him during his invincibility frames and fall off before getting the second one. With practice it should become pretty simple.

Not sure if you guys knew this (it's so minor that I didn't check), but you can crouch during Wario's landing pose after jumping off a rope to cancel the landing animation. You can use that during the second phase in Chortlebot to be able to react as soon as he falls.
SEGA Junkie
OK, here's the coin route change: In Stonetooth Cave there's a pipe behind a fire block with a G bag and a diamond. 15k coins, that take just under 30 seconds to get. That's a better ratio than a few other 5k bags, so it's in. What comes out: the G bag at the top left of Stonetooth Cave's first room, and the first and last G bags in Glittertown.

Also I'm removing the Wreck Train gold coins instead of the Mt Lava Lava G bag; I discovered that if you're a bit short (the target after world 2 should be to have 145k coins before buying world 3 map) that getting a small bag in Wreck Train is actually slower (about four seconds) than the difference of those two routes (about two seconds).

Now, for a legitimate timesaver! On Scumflower (or Bloomsday, depending on version), you can actually keep both of the scorpions in the third phase of the fight, which saves time waiting for him to throw another Bandinero out in the next phase. Stand right at the back and shake to stun them as they fall, then pick one up and push the other one to the left. As the wind drops, immediately drop the scorpion you're holding and shake the ground again, then jump over the quake and throw both scorpions at him. This saves 4-5 seconds. Sadly, everything I tried to skip one of the last two phases, which take over 20 seconds a piece, failed. Sad
Edit history:
mike89: 2013-09-16 06:50:31 am
SEGA Junkie
Holy shit, mad shoutouts to hotdogturtle for pointing this out in my chat earlier. Just saved 20+ seconds on Large Fry. Vid incoming.

EDIT: - sorry, I forgot to cut out the first attempt, and didn't feel like encoding again >_>
dat large fry strat. what.
Edit history:
TheOthin: 2013-09-16 08:03:58 am
Oh man that's wonderful. Seems like it's gotta be way more consistent than regular strats, too.
I remember that same strat used in a video by WhiteKhakis

Was it really this...unknown?

^ That's actually the same user who posted about this strat in a GameFAQs topic (from 2009), which I found last week and forwarded to Mike yesterday. The strat was out there but I guess it never made its way to the speedrunning community.
Edit history:
arkarian: 2013-09-16 06:02:06 pm
that large fry strat is great. i remember trying to do something like that way back when but for some reason couldn't figure out a way to keep the bombs from being hit by something after setting them down. glad someone figured out how to do it.

Quote from TheOthin:
Oh man that's wonderful. Seems like it's gotta be way more consistent than regular strats, too.

imo large fry is the easiest boss after bloomsday, even with the old strat. as long as you're good at aiming throws, there's no difficult movements you need to make. in this game, the easiest bosses to beat casually are the toughest to speed run and vice versa.

chortlebot is such a pain in the ass though. i seem to recall flip mentioning the ground pound strat to me years ago (maybe at the marathon?) but i don't see any record of it in this thread. maybe he can confirm or deny. at any rate i believe i thought it was too hard to pull off consistently to be worth it, but if that's not the case then go go!
Edit history:
TheOthin: 2013-09-16 06:32:19 pm
Hmm, I haven't tried him in a while, but I've seen a bunch of fights in the streams get messed up by annoying attacks when he was allowed to do as he pleased. Not that that's an issue anymore, though. And I've got my own copy now, so I can finally start getting my hands dirty myself rather than sticking to all this theoretical stuff.
I'm getting kinda interested in routing all-stages actually; maybe i'll work on that once I stop being lazy and finish each level for 100%. There's a lot of options for coin routing since the secret stages have a lot of coins, and it might make 1-2-5-4-3 viable or something like that. Especially since coin routing with neon city would be terrible Sad COUGH COUGH
Glancing things over, the four real options for all stages routing are:

a) 1-2-4-5-3
b) 1-2-5-4-3
c) 1-3-4-5-2
d) 1-3-5-4-2

a is the closest to existing routes; it should be a step up from the any% routes and easily doable.

b is the next step up in difficulty. It requires unlocking World 5 a bit early, in exchange for putting its massive treasure trove of coins to use. If it's possible to put together the coins for it from the first two worlds, it should make the coin route for the rest of the game particularly relaxed.

c is another step up in difficulty, if you can unlock World 3 straight from World 1. I'm gonna start looking into if that's doable, but just from a glance, it looks pretty harsh, and I don't see any real benefits.

d is the really crazy one. If you could pull it off, the coin route is all an easy ride from World 5 on, to the point where I can see it being particularly easy to buy the last two world maps in one visit, saving a bunch of time. This would relegate W2 and W4 to the "coin route completed" stage - which is nice, but seems like a waste of the two autoscrollers between them, and you'd have to make it up in the earlier levels. So I don't know if it's worthwhile.

There are technically 24 total options, but I really don't think we're gonna ever be going to W4 or W5 second, and we don't want to leave either of them for last unless we have to - and I don't think we have to. So limiting them to the middle spots just leaves this manageable set of possibilities.

b is the one I've really got my eye on. It still visits W5 first, but it ought to be more doable. You're working with the lower coin output from W2 rather than W3, but unless it costs you a whole 50k coins, you'll make up the difference with savings out of the coins pocketed from W1 and can put the rest towards W5. Most importantly, it takes away the pressure to get all the way to 100k in W1 as long as you can still get to 200k for W5. And it might be possible to still do the two-for-one map purchase if you can get a whole 250k in W5, so it really depends on whether that's worth the time saved from just one shop visit compared to the time to round out the coin count in W4.

I haven't done any real testing yet, so this is all theoretical at the moment, but I'm gonna start scoping out coin spots to see how far it's feasible to push this.
SEGA Junkie
My instinct tells me d) would actually be the fastest, but I'd have to run the numbers. I don't know anything about the secret levels though, as far as how many coins you get out of them for free, but I will say that my any% runs come out of w1 with about 87k, without those two extra levels. You're also not giving enough credence to world 3's treasure trove; Wreck Train in particular gets like 30k coins in its runback at the cost of about ten seconds.

I agree on the w4/5 analysis though. Can't go first, wasted last. That said, given world 5 has a ton of coins in it literally for free, 1-3-5-2-4 could be equally viable if w5 is under 150k, given w2 has a water level that would make up most of its cost by itself.
Okay I'll have to look more closely at the existing coin route then because that should be a lot more doable; 1.5x the any% coin winnings should be a good lowball rough estimate for what's available, although ideally we'll get to be a bit more choosy. If there's that many coins available and W3 works out so well, 1-3-5-4-2 sounds really great.

I don't think W5 will have trouble making it even to 200k, what with its three secret levels that should be at least as profitable as the regular ones - although getting the Bad Manor map has the unfortunate side-effect of costing you the Mini Wario runback. Worth keeping in mind if it falls through, but if we can scrounge up the 300k coins between W1 and W3 to unlock W3 and W5, I don't think it'll come to that. But yeah, we'll just have to see.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-09-18 04:51:06 am
Another thing to consider for all-levels is that neon city has a secret slots during the runback, where scoring the gold coin nets you 10k each, so farming there would probably be really fast. World 3 has a ton of coins in general.
Edit history:
arkarian: 2013-09-18 10:12:16 pm
arkarian: 2013-09-18 10:09:08 pm
kirbymastah: really nice find in gurgle gulch (skipping the water drainage)!

Quote from kirbymastah:
Mount Bighill 100% - Some cool tricks that I stole from flip here. I'm really happy with the route I came up with; it's very good, and has almost no backtracking. I especially love the method I found for getting the third treasure (Again using the pound-on-edge-of-log trick that I saw flip use in his segmented run).

see this post for a way to avoid ground pounding to set up that log in the first room. saves at least 2 seconds and is doable 100% of the time after some practice. i found this after flip did his run; he used it at the first agdq iirc.

also, not sure if you're aware of the stutter climb but just in case:

when you near the top of the ladder (as wario's hands start to grab the ledge), hold up + the direction you want to go, and rapidly tap 1. if done properly, you should skip the animation where wario pulls himself up the ledge and go straight into a dash.

depending on how fast you do it/how lucky you get, stutter climbing can save 7 frames (.23 seconds) or more.

only saves a few frames, but it's fairly easy to get consistently and there's no downside to trying with every ladder, so it's worth practicing imo.
Quote from arkarian:
he used it at the first agdq iirc.

Would have used it but I was busy talking and forgot all about it lol.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-09-19 11:20:48 am
Quote from Flip:
Quote from arkarian:
he used it at the first agdq iirc.

Would have used it but I was busy talking and forgot all about it lol.

I should go watch the run again (and mike's new record run) to steal strats. In several months, when SGDQ 2014 comes around, I'm probably going to end up offering this game any%.

Also, about the game itself. I timed specific money bags (5k each) and jewels (10k) in Neon City, and they all cost over 10 seconds each. Whereas each round of slots gives 10k per 10 seconds, assuming you get them second cycle each (which is reasonable) and don't miss.

100% run of neon city would basically skip every bag, and just grind at slots in neon city.

So uh, a all-stages run would also spend a lot of time grinding at slots in neon city <_< Ideally, then, you'd basically spend minutes and minutes in neon city, grinding coins, since 10 seconds per 10k is pretty awesome, but you have a time limit since it's during the runback
You've got a lot of time for the coin grinding. You have at least 100 seconds to spare during the runback, and you only need 70k to hit the coin goal. I just tried it and had time to get 60k from the slots even with a ton of mistakes on the slots; 70k is definitely doable. Bit of a shame that you can't just use them to get 200k for an all stages run, but with two train stages and three other levels, it shouldn't be too hard to get that sum out of World 3.

Of course, this could get pretty ugly in practice, since if you missed too many slots, you could get a forced reset in 100%, and in all stages, you'd only have Derailed Express to make up any coin difference. But the slots don't seem as bad as they first looked, as long as the motion controls are cooperative.
Okay if you get a good rhythm you can hit on every cycle rather than waiting. I was able to get 10k with 5 mistakes, mostly near the end. Not sure how much is reliably feasible with more practice; this took several attempts, but that's also starting from no practice beforehand. Granted, I also exited the stage with about a sixth of a second left on the timer, so... better to not cut it that close.
SEGA Junkie
I'm gonna be streaming this game pretty much all day tomorrow, so if you want to talk strats let's try and organise it then. I might use some of that time to put together the spreadsheet for all levels - nothing that's been said in the thread so far tells me anything other than 1-3-5-4-2 is the way to go Tongue
what's your twitch url? i'll probably be watching
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-09-19 05:21:47 pm
yeah for all-levels, you definitely want to do world 3 after 1, because lol neon city

also arkarian, mike's twitch is
Edit history:
arkarian: 2013-09-19 06:38:37 pm
arkarian: 2013-09-19 05:56:19 pm
mike - i'm watching your attempt from last week and am curious about the rollanratl battle. is the strategy you use actually faster than my il, or do you use it for a different reason (perhaps not to risk falling off his head)?

also iirc it's possible to get the balls to come out every time (or nearly every time) in its-all mine. try standing exactly where i stand in this run when you do the ground pounds, and make sure the enemies are doing what they're doing in my vid (the cannon guy over the second ball can't be spitting). also, i'm pretty sure how far the screen is scrolled makes a difference.

was never able to figure out exactly what determines whether the balls pop out, but i'm like 99% sure i was able to get them to cooperate on every attempt with these things in mind.
Edit history:
mike89: 2013-09-19 07:33:09 pm
SEGA Junkie
Oh wow, that IL was one of the videos I overlooked. Definitely using that strat from now on.

It's amazing how much the bosses are going to contribute to the final time here...

As for Itsall Mine, I'll play around with that tomorrow. My consistency's been pretty good in attempts so far, though.