Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria

2007-03-14 10:40:21 pm

Direct Assault!

Ballistic Rhino: I used Sideswiper - Sweep Dive for Kraad and Heavyweight - Absolute Strike for Dylan. Dashed to the back and attacked until I had around 20 AP, then used the Thunder Gem. Rhino will use Violent Purge (+60 AP to the party). Then I just kept attacking. Didn't the Thunder Gem at the beginning hit/break the armor?

Ooze: Pretty much the same thing. Maybe the problem is that you used Mithra against Rhino. Since experience is shared you might have missed a level because of that. Lower Gem damage, and also less ATK for Kraad.

Sack Mimics are immune to instant-breaking. I'd try using Lezard's Fire Storm (fire is the only element the Sack doesn't resist). Link 4 Blue Apples on him if necessary.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-03-14 11:11:21 pm

2007-03-14 11:09:32 pm

Never give up!

I'll have to have a look at keeping Mithra out of the party for Ballistic Rhino (I only need him to have enough levels to release at the end of Chapter 3, so getting levels THIS early is somewhat pointless), as that may have indeed been it.

However, as far as the Sack Mimics, I actually went back and tried your suggestion (since Lezard hadn't levelled up yet) and I'm not sure that'll be enough, even WITH 4 Blue Apples. Jury's still out on that one until I go through that area again either upon recording or in the next test run, when I'll be able to test this with a proper-level party.

(In other news, I'm about ready to do the Surt's Volcano Caverns area, having gotten Zunde on my first pass through Sahma Desert. Should I get one of the two items I need on the way to Evolver and one on the way back, both on the way to him, or both on the way back from him?

And another note. The Audoula Temple part pre-Kraken took me five tries. Two ruined attempts were from doing the dungeon's puzzle wrong, and the other two were from getting Ehrde instead of Phyress. Although it looks to me like if Ehrde were gotten in an SS, you could move along without nearly as much problem as you'd think rather than being forced to restart, since you can probably get the Psychosoma skill by the time you run up against Dragon Zombie if you do things right.)

I'll have to have a look at keeping Mithra out of the party for Ballistic Rhino (I only need him to have enough levels to release at the end of Chapter 3, so getting levels THIS early is somewhat pointless), as that may have indeed been it.

However, as far as the Sack Mimics, I actually went back and tried your suggestion (since Lezard hadn't levelled up yet) and I'm not sure that'll be enough, even WITH 4 Blue Apples.  Jury's still out on that one until I go through that area again either upon recording or in the next test run, when I'll be able to test this with a proper-level party.

(In other news, I'm about ready to do the Surt's Volcano Caverns area, having gotten Zunde on my first pass through Sahma Desert.  Should I get one of the two items I need on the way to Evolver and one on the way back, both on the way to him, or both on the way back from him?

And another note.  The Audoula Temple part pre-Kraken took me five tries.  Two ruined attempts were from doing the dungeon's puzzle wrong, and the other two were from getting Ehrde instead of Phyress.  Although it looks to me like if Ehrde were gotten in an SS, you could move along without nearly as much problem as you'd think rather than being forced to restart, since you can probably get the Psychosoma skill by the time you run up against Dragon Zombie if you do things right.)

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-03-17 11:17:16 pm

2007-03-17 04:22:15 am

Never give up!

Okay, a few scouting attempts at Surt's Volcano Caverns have led me to the following conclusions:

-I'm going to need a different source for a Red Weakness rune, since finding Lizard Lords to get a Piercing Imprint off of is being a real pain. Unless someone can tell me what enemy type they spawn out of. That's the rune I'll go for after Evolver, though in a separate segment. (And in a real run, I'd have the Red Weakness rune by now - I skipped out on my chance to get it in Ancient Forest AND Audoula Temple this time due to frustration.)
-Core Rubies (which I'm using for my Red Ice rune) are really easy to get, as the Red Jewel is almost a guaranteed break. I could easily get this from the first encounter in the dungeon.

Edit: I'm considering detouring for the Ice Crystal and Overdrive here. I'd use the former on the second part of Evolver and the latter would probably be used during the Hydra fight. I'll test this to see if it's worthwhile though.

Also, can anyone figure out the exact timing for constant bouncing of enemies like Red Jewels with Zunde? I've noticed that after a Sweep Dive, if you time an Overhand Left perfectly, you can force another bounce (good for AP purposes). However, I can't seem to get it right more than 5% of the time.

Edit 2: Ice Crystal ain't worth it. Overdrive might, though. Will need to investigate.

And I actually think I'm going to skip the Red Weakness rune in this practice run altogether. I'm past the point where getting them is easy.

Edit 3: I had saved my STR powerups from the Richelle and Kraad releases instead of giving them to Phyress earlier, and I decided to hand them to Zunde. (It's either that, or hold on to them until the endgame, and I don't think THAT is worthwhile.)

This, plus Zunde's Giant Killer skill (and a Might Potion in the second phase), PLUS reordering the attacks to Dreaded Radius - Sweep Dive, PLUS a more gung-ho approach than the current run, means I can DA BOTH forms of Evolver with a little luck. (The current run misses both chances, but not by a whole lot.) He may never get to attack either. I get over 800 damage per hit in the first phase and 1600+ on the second phase (I'm not sure what causes this since I recall Might Reinforce only increasing by 50%, and I thought the potions matched up to their spells as far as the percentage increase).

Though in a real run, I may save the second Might Potion for Hydra. Let's see if I can find another quickly...... nope. I wonder though.... if I equipped Dylan with the Flamberge I won from Evolver, would that speed up the Hydra fight any?

Lastly, I'm considering skipping both Einherjar here rather than just the Heavy Warrior. I'm not sure releasing Celes with the Flare Baselard will be enough, and there's only one good light sword release weapon that's not off the path.

Edit 4: Flamberge on anyone, even with Zunde (and then using his SC), will not speed this battle up enough to justify it. So that's a no go. I may use Zunde as the only attacker here, in all actuality.

If I did this fight right, Alicia will learn one of the three skills I need her to learn (those three are Psychosoma, Fists of Iron, and Mental Boost - she learns the first of those from this fight).

Edit 5: Nevermind that. I was able to adjust equipment so Alicia learned all three skills she needs. Now, without the Red Weakness rune, the only other skill I can learn that might get serious use is Precision Parry, and I'm actually kind of iffy on that one personally. I'll give it a try later.

Edit 6: Am through most of Palace of the Venerated Dragon. I managed to pick up one Bloody Patch from the minibosses so I'm not complaining. Also, at this point, I should not need to give any more powerup items to either Zunde or Phyress - I've determined they will not save enough time to be worth using them this soon. (I'm saving all such things for Valkyrie.)

As far as Dragon Zombie, I find that Zunde is faster than Phyress. He has two power attacks (Phyress only has one), and his maximum damage output is higher than the Phyress in the current speedrun. That's BEFORE the possibility of a Might Potion.

However, I'm not going to use one, as I have seven fights (not counting this one) before I can get more, and I only have TWO Might Potions (the two gotten from DAing the Muscular Stalkers). I managed to snag a Double-Check in Dragonscrypt, and can potentially use it here to get three Einherjar to release level in one fight (and give Zunde three levels AT THE SAME TIME). I'll probably use one of the Might Potions against Hrist, but where should I use the other? I'm currently looking at either Arectaris or Heimdall for that.

~~Also, since I skipped the Brilliant Peacemaker, I'm tempted to do a frontal attack and get a Dragon Rib, which has the same effect.~~ I've decided against this. Too many times he's whipped out Maleficent Harm after a round of attacking from me. I'll just go for the fast fall.

Edit 7a: Okay, I'd been tripped up a little bit by Ull. However, I can solve this issue by having Phyress take the point for this battle. I'll just use those extra powerups I've been saving on her - plus a Spell Potion I'd picked up in Palace of the Venerated Dragon - and that should make the fight bearable.

Edit 8: Okay, maybe using Phyress won't do the trick. I'll stick with Zunde for this then. But I'll have to use a Might Potion (I have three instead of two, because of Leone and Arngrim leaving the party).

Edit 9: Walther and Gyne are probably going to be my hardest bosses. Simply because the only one I can silence is Gyne - and one hit from any of Walther's spells, barring Chaotic Rune, will put Zunde down for the count. Hrist is easy - I just have to get Zunde behind her and make the main party take one hit on purpose to refill AP.

Okay, a few scouting attempts at Surt's Volcano Caverns have led me to the following conclusions:

-I'm going to need a different source for a Red Weakness rune, since finding Lizard Lords to get a Piercing Imprint off of is being a real pain.  Unless someone can tell me what enemy type they spawn out of.  That's the rune I'll go for after Evolver, though in a separate segment.  (And in a real run, I'd have the Red Weakness rune by now - I skipped out on my chance to get it in Ancient Forest AND Audoula Temple this time due to frustration.)
-Core Rubies (which I'm using for my Red Ice rune) are really easy to get, as the Red Jewel is almost a guaranteed break.  I could easily get this from the first encounter in the dungeon.

Edit: I'm considering detouring for the Ice Crystal and Overdrive here.  I'd use the former on the second part of Evolver and the latter would probably be used during the Hydra fight.  I'll test this to see if it's worthwhile though.

Also, can anyone figure out the exact timing for constant bouncing of enemies like Red Jewels with Zunde?  I've noticed that after a Sweep Dive, if you time an Overhand Left perfectly, you can force another bounce (good for AP purposes).  However, I can't seem to get it right more than 5% of the time.

Edit 2: Ice Crystal ain't worth it.  Overdrive might, though.  Will need to investigate.

And I actually think I'm going to skip the Red Weakness rune in this practice run altogether.  I'm past the point where getting them is easy.

Edit 3: I had saved my STR powerups from the Richelle and Kraad releases instead of giving them to Phyress earlier, and I decided to hand them to Zunde.  (It's either that, or hold on to them until the endgame, and I don't think THAT is worthwhile.)

This, plus Zunde's Giant Killer skill (and a Might Potion in the second phase), PLUS reordering the attacks to Dreaded Radius - Sweep Dive, PLUS a more gung-ho approach than the current run, means I can DA BOTH forms of Evolver with a little luck.  (The current run misses both chances, but not by a whole lot.)  He may never get to attack either.  I get over 800 damage per hit in the first phase and 1600+ on the second phase (I'm not sure what causes this since I recall Might Reinforce only increasing by 50%, and I thought the potions matched up to their spells as far as the percentage increase).

Though in a real run, I may save the second Might Potion for Hydra.  Let's see if I can find another quickly...... nope.  I wonder though.... if I equipped Dylan with the Flamberge I won from Evolver, would that speed up the Hydra fight any?

Lastly, I'm considering skipping both Einherjar here rather than just the Heavy Warrior.  I'm not sure releasing Celes with the Flare Baselard will be enough, and there's only one good light sword release weapon that's not off the path.

Edit 4: Flamberge on anyone, even with Zunde (and then using his SC), will not speed this battle up enough to justify it.  So that's a no go.  I may use Zunde as the only attacker here, in all actuality.

If I did this fight right, Alicia will learn one of the three skills I need her to learn (those three are Psychosoma, Fists of Iron, and Mental Boost - she learns the first of those from this fight).

Edit 5: Nevermind that.  I was able to adjust equipment so Alicia learned all three skills she needs.  Now, without the Red Weakness rune, the only other skill I can learn that might get serious use is Precision Parry, and I'm actually kind of iffy on that one personally.  I'll give it a try later.

Edit 6: Am through most of Palace of the Venerated Dragon.  I managed to pick up one Bloody Patch from the minibosses so I'm not complaining.  Also, at this point, I should not need to give any more powerup items to either Zunde or Phyress - I've determined they will not save enough time to be worth using them this soon.  (I'm saving all such things for Valkyrie.)

As far as Dragon Zombie, I find that Zunde is faster than Phyress.  He has two power attacks (Phyress only has one), and his maximum damage output is higher than the Phyress in the current speedrun.  That's BEFORE the possibility of a Might Potion.

However, I'm not going to use one, as I have seven fights (not counting this one) before I can get more, and I only have TWO Might Potions (the two gotten from DAing the Muscular Stalkers).  I managed to snag a Double-Check in Dragonscrypt, and can potentially use it here to get three Einherjar to release level in one fight (and give Zunde three levels AT THE SAME TIME).  I'll probably use one of the Might Potions against Hrist, but where should I use the other?  I'm currently looking at either Arectaris or Heimdall for that.

[s]Also, since I skipped the Brilliant Peacemaker, I'm tempted to do a frontal attack and get a Dragon Rib, which has the same effect.[/s]  I've decided against this.  Too many times he's whipped out Maleficent Harm after a round of attacking from me.  I'll just go for the fast fall.

Edit 7a: Okay, I'd been tripped up a little bit by Ull.  However, I can solve this issue by having Phyress take the point for this battle.  I'll just use those extra powerups I've been saving on her - plus a Spell Potion I'd picked up in Palace of the Venerated Dragon - and that should make the fight bearable.

Edit 8: Okay, maybe using Phyress won't do the trick.  I'll stick with Zunde for this then.  But I'll have to use a Might Potion (I have three instead of two, because of Leone and Arngrim leaving the party).

Edit 9: Walther and Gyne are probably going to be my hardest bosses.  Simply because the only one I can silence is Gyne - and one hit from any of Walther's spells, barring Chaotic Rune, will put Zunde down for the count.  Hrist is easy - I just have to get Zunde behind her and make the main party take one hit on purpose to refill AP.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2007-04-30 12:34:44 am

2007-04-30 12:34:18 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I could wallow in a sea of [something] for not posting in this thread earlier (I verified), but better late than never I guess. I wonder if I can still understand my own text files.

This was going to be notes on Alkaiser's run, but I don't think he's here anymore and besides, I kinda feel bad for the guy because we had several lists of critiques as well as a thread on gamefaqs that was starting (I missed it though). And many of the critiques were wrong anyway, like suggesting Celes. (Before I watched the run, I actually told Mike that if it used anyone other than Phyress, I would reject it. :))

Before I forget, I put a $50 bounty on a SS of this, so if AquaTiger or anyone else needs motivation, go ahead. Speaking of which, AquaTiger, if you would like help, I could talk to you over AIM. Sorry but I haven't read all this, because this is a mass of text to read, so I could be halfway talking out of my ass by now.

First, for some actual research into real points of improvement that I don't think have been pointed out yet. This means I'm not going to say "warp the pillar in Serdberg instead of pushing it," because everyone knows that.

- I did a lot of testing, counting frames, and I have concluded that constant jumping (bunnyhopping? heh) is the fastest. I put the data up here. Video proof is here and here if you need it. I think AquaTiger suggested this was true, so good job, your hunch is correct.
- For the minimum distance required for photon swapping to be faster than just running, use this video and look around 1:06.
- IMHO VP games should be played with X as jump, so you can jump and fire or swing with ease.
- By far the best way to enter different planes (either up or down) is to hold left or right on the analog, switch to your right thumb, and mash up or down on the d-pad with your left thumb.
- In battle, if you tap the face buttons near the end of a combo (when the characters start moving back), you can eliminate the delay in between combo chains.
- Jump up while falling for better vertical velocity (think Mega Man). This is high risk/low reward though.
- You can use turbo instead of running in circles to poison the Griffon. Here is a funny video where I get killed by being too lazy to move far enough way, but the idea works.
- Audoula Temple on the Lake, I am almost 100% sure that pushing the block left would be better.
- While photon swapping to get Phyress, instead of the one-pixel current method (which is what I did the first time), there is a way to make this 100% doable. If you start farther back, you can do a 2-bounce thing that is way easier. I tried it out; I'm maybe 10/10 on this.
- Forest of Spirits, I am POSITIVE that the current ways in and out could be much improved and that I have the fastest routes. In you go up, down, right, left, up, left... a good bit faster. By far the fastest way to leave is just to go right, then back and forth (across the edge of the screen) four times. That's it.
- seg24 4:19, faster to fall down at the right
- seg25 2:45, just shoot up as soon as you enter

Now for some maybe's that I had.

- I'm sure a lot of people talked about recruiting less guys, but there's another idea to this. I wonder if Solitary Struggle and less guys wouldn't be a better idea.
- Use stuff like Empty Shell.
- I tried everything; it is basically impossible to solo Evolver with Phyress. Alkaiser's solution was to use Zunde, and AquaTiger seems to have decided that Zunde is in fact good. (even for other fights?) Nevertheless, I'll contribute my idea at the time, which would be to backtrack and nuke Evolver with Holy Water of Mithra, because I think only one character should be concentrated on. I didn't realize Odin was supposed to be that hard either.
- Since Zunde is 20% in a SS, he might not be such a good idea either, which would support things like not having to recruit as many people, not having to do Ancient Forest, not have to get the "negate light damage" sealstone since you would be nuking Evolver, etc.

I put my notes here. I might say some dumb stuff but it's thorough.

I could wallow in a sea of [something] for not posting in this thread earlier (I verified), but better late than never I guess. I wonder if I can still understand my own text files.

This was going to be notes on Alkaiser's run, but I don't think he's here anymore and besides, I kinda feel bad for the guy because we had several lists of critiques as well as a thread on gamefaqs that was starting (I missed it though). And many of the critiques were wrong anyway, like suggesting Celes. (Before I watched the run, I actually told Mike that if it used anyone other than Phyress, I would reject it. :))

Before I forget, I put a $50 bounty on a SS of this, so if AquaTiger or anyone else needs motivation, go ahead. Speaking of which, AquaTiger, if you would like help, I could talk to you over AIM. Sorry but I haven't read all this, because this is a mass of text to read, so I could be halfway talking out of my ass by now.

First, for some actual research into real points of improvement that I don't think have been pointed out yet. This means I'm not going to say "warp the pillar in Serdberg instead of pushing it," because everyone knows that.

- I did a lot of testing, counting frames, and I have concluded that constant jumping (bunnyhopping? heh) is the fastest. I put the data up [url=http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~kjuang/files/vp2_tests.txt]here[/url]. Video proof is [url=http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~kjuang/files/running.avi]here[/url] and [url=http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~kjuang/files/running2.avi]here[/url] if you need it. I think AquaTiger suggested this was true, so good job, your hunch is correct.
- For the minimum distance required for photon swapping to be faster than just running, use [url=http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~kjuang/files/photons.avi]this video[/url] and look around 1:06.
- IMHO VP games should be played with X as jump, so you can jump and fire or swing with ease.
- By far the best way to enter different planes (either up or down) is to hold left or right on the analog, switch to your right thumb, and mash up or down on the d-pad with your left thumb.
- In battle, if you tap the face buttons near the end of a combo (when the characters start moving back), you can eliminate the delay in between combo chains.
- Jump up while falling for better vertical velocity (think Mega Man). This is high risk/low reward though.
- You can use turbo instead of running in circles to poison the Griffon. [url=http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~kjuang/files/turbo.avi]Here[/url] is a funny video where I get killed by being too lazy to move far enough way, but the idea works.
- Audoula Temple on the Lake, I am almost 100% sure that pushing the block left would be better.
- While photon swapping to get Phyress, instead of the one-pixel current method (which is what I did the first time), there is a way to make this 100% doable. If you start farther back, you can do a 2-bounce thing that is way easier. I tried it out; I'm maybe 10/10 on this.
- Forest of Spirits, I am POSITIVE that the current ways in and out could be much improved and that I have the fastest routes. In you go up, down, right, left, up, left... a good bit faster. By far the fastest way to leave is just to go right, then back and forth (across the edge of the screen) four times. That's it.
- seg24 4:19, faster to fall down at the right
- seg25 2:45, just shoot up as soon as you enter

Now for some maybe's that I had.

- I'm sure a lot of people talked about recruiting less guys, but there's another idea to this. I wonder if Solitary Struggle and less guys wouldn't be a better idea.
- Use stuff like Empty Shell.
- I tried everything; it is basically impossible to solo Evolver with Phyress. Alkaiser's solution was to use Zunde, and AquaTiger seems to have decided that Zunde is in fact good. (even for other fights?) Nevertheless, I'll contribute my idea at the time, which would be to backtrack and nuke Evolver with Holy Water of Mithra, because I think only one character should be concentrated on. I didn't realize Odin was supposed to be that hard either.
- Since Zunde is 20% in a SS, he might not be such a good idea either, which would support things like not having to recruit as many people, not having to do Ancient Forest, not have to get the "negate light damage" sealstone since you would be nuking Evolver, etc.

I put my notes [url=http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~kjuang/files/vp2_notes.txt]here[/url]. I might say some dumb stuff but it's thorough.

tri-Ace Fanboy

2007-04-30 04:29:19 pm

Direct Assault!

Ancient Forest has to be done for the Sealstone Pouch, and the Griffon gives very good experience. I thought about Chateau Obsession instead but it's not worth it.

Right now I think Phyress as the main character isn't a good idea. There aren't any MAG boosts in a speed run other than releases and Magic Bangles (well, and Spell Potions), and most important bosses after Ull resist fire anyway (Gyne, Hrist, Heimdall, Odin, Silver Dragon, everything in Chapter 6). She's still good for the Kraken but not much else. Maybe Dragon Zombie. I'd use her for combos only, launching with Flame Shot and then using Shrapnel Shatter for purple gems with Spirit Control.

I think Dylan, Zunde, Celes, Phyress is the best party for Chapter 3. After that it can be just Zunde, Celes, Phyress or maybe Gerald too. I don't know how high he'd join, and he needs level 24 for Sweep Dive. Celes is just there for combos, like Phyress. Once she's level 7 she can use Descending Sword, Mist Phantom, Ascending Sword with Spirit Control to restore 20 AP alone, more with an Overdrive (26).

I have most of the game planned but I can't do any test runs for now, so I don't know how effective my ideas actually are.

Ancient Forest has to be done for the Sealstone Pouch, and the Griffon gives very good experience. I thought about Chateau Obsession instead but it's not worth it.

Right now I think Phyress as the main character isn't a good idea. There aren't any MAG boosts in a speed run other than releases and Magic Bangles (well, and Spell Potions), and most important bosses after Ull resist fire anyway (Gyne, Hrist, Heimdall, Odin, Silver Dragon, everything in Chapter 6). She's still good for the Kraken but not much else. Maybe Dragon Zombie. I'd use her for combos only, launching with Flame Shot and then using Shrapnel Shatter for purple gems with Spirit Control.

I think Dylan, Zunde, Celes, Phyress is the best party for Chapter 3. After that it can be just Zunde, Celes, Phyress or maybe Gerald too. I don't know how high he'd join, and he needs level 24 for Sweep Dive. Celes is just there for combos, like Phyress. Once she's level 7 she can use Descending Sword, Mist Phantom, Ascending Sword with Spirit Control to restore 20 AP alone, more with an Overdrive (26).

I have most of the game planned but I can't do any test runs for now, so I don't know how effective my ideas actually are.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-04-30 06:41:50 pm

2007-04-30 06:26:42 pm

Never give up!

I'm still willing to do this - I just got a bit stuck on Arectaris in my practice run is all. Plus I left the PS2 at home so I could focus more on finishing college.

Anyway, as far as Audoula Temple - I am going with a 2-bounce method. It'll save time over the current run because it's easier to pull off.

As far as my party? I'm looking more at party considerations after Chapter 4, when I expect all remaining Einherjar to be at release level. I based who I would get in the first place on two factors: quality of release items and distance off the path. I mentioned somewhere that I'd stop getting mages after Psoron/Farant, despite the fact that mages aren't really far off the path, and the quality of release items is why (releasing a mage with anything less than the Dragonlore is a waste, and there's only three weapons more powerful before Seraphic Gate that can be gotten easily. I may consider skipping out on one of them depending on whether I find the Unicorn's Horn to be worth the time it takes to get it). And the reason I didn't get BOTH remaining Heavy Warriors (there's 4, and 2 are required by the route) is distance off the path. If you plan on coming up with einherjar lists, remember that Valkyrie in my setup will have Psychosoma, so attack AND magic boosts will help.

Anyway, I just thought of a potential answer to my Brilliant Peacemaker dilemma - and I know some people are going to think it's a real waste. Since Phyress isn't going to be really useful for damage dealing (remember, Dylan's my key damage-dealer against Kraken), why not give Lezard the Expert's Experience? That's 12 levels right there, which should give a pretty good MAG boost. By doing that and further boosting his MAG with the Blue Apples, his power with Fire Storm should get high enough that I can break the main body of the Sack Mimic (that's where the Brilliant Peacemaker comes from). The item is valuable enough that I'm willing to take an extra trip into Ancient Forest (which is only necessary if Richelle doesn't get to release level from Wyvern) to get it.

I'm still willing to do this - I just got a bit stuck on Arectaris in my practice run is all.  Plus I left the PS2 at home so I could focus more on finishing college.

Anyway, as far as Audoula Temple - I am going with a 2-bounce method.  It'll save time over the current run because it's easier to pull off.

As far as my party?  I'm looking more at party considerations after Chapter 4, when I expect all remaining Einherjar to be at release level.  I based who I would get in the first place on two factors: quality of release items and distance off the path.  I mentioned somewhere that I'd stop getting mages after Psoron/Farant, despite the fact that mages aren't really far off the path, and the quality of release items is why (releasing a mage with anything less than the Dragonlore is a waste, and there's only three weapons more powerful before Seraphic Gate that can be gotten easily.  I may consider skipping out on one of them depending on whether I find the Unicorn's Horn to be worth the time it takes to get it).  And the reason I didn't get BOTH remaining Heavy Warriors (there's 4, and 2 are required by the route) is distance off the path.  If you plan on coming up with einherjar lists, remember that Valkyrie in my setup will have Psychosoma, so attack AND magic boosts will help.

Anyway, I just thought of a potential answer to my Brilliant Peacemaker dilemma - and I know some people are going to think it's a real waste.  Since Phyress isn't going to be really useful for damage dealing (remember, Dylan's my key damage-dealer against Kraken), why not give Lezard the Expert's Experience?  That's 12 levels right there, which should give a pretty good MAG boost.  By doing that and further boosting his MAG with the Blue Apples, his power with Fire Storm should get high enough that I can break the main body of the Sack Mimic (that's where the Brilliant Peacemaker comes from).  The item is valuable enough that I'm willing to take an extra trip into Ancient Forest (which is only necessary if Richelle doesn't get to release level from Wyvern) to get it.

Enhasa

2007-04-30 07:12:49 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

What does Brilliant Peacemaker do exactly? Is it something like 100% all stats (ie normal) at full health, scaling down to 200% stats at very low health? I'm just guessing, I haven't kept up with the VP2 tech in months. Tongue

tri-Ace Fanboy

2007-04-30 08:08:35 pm

Direct Assault!

Brilliant Peacemaker and similar items give a x1.5 boost to all stats at 1 HP. It's good, but keeping your health down like that is usually too troublesome, and it takes many reloads to get. It's a 15% drop chance from a rare enemy.

I'd get the Dragon Rib instead (same effect, plus a base x1.1 to ATK). A level 15 Zunde with worst stat-growth and no releases can deal at least 9000 * damage to the Dragon Zombie, from the front, with Sweep Dive. So two attacks and it dies, and that's a 60% chance of getting the Dragon Rib. It's just a matter of tanking one attack.

*Level 15 Zunde with Kraadicator, Power Bangle and Great Eagle Heart has at least 295 base ATK, resulting in nearly x31 damage with Fists of Iron, Empty Shell, Sword Blessing, Wrath of Forcefulness, Might Potion, Sweep Dive, Giant Killer and the Bloody Patch.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-04-30 09:21:38 pm

2007-04-30 09:14:29 pm

Never give up!

Wrath of Forcefulness, eh? I've always been scared to use that sealstone, but I just got an idea.

What's our likely crystal count by that point? If it's close enough to the requirement for restoring that one, I'd be all over using extra battles to get the crystals to restore that. (SO WHAT if it takes 5 minutes' worth of battles - I'm very sure you can recover those five minutes at minimum from boss times.)

....wouldn't help us against Heimdall and Ull, since you can't use sealstones against those guys, but it'd help obliterate a lot of other bosses.

My other question is, as far as Soul Crushes, would Wrath of Forcefulness apply the break chance to every hit, or just one of them?

As for Brilliant Peacemaker, I understand that I've found the necessary enemy in basically only one spot in Ancient Forest, and the drop itself is rare as it is. However, I'm not sure skipping out on an item with that effect for four dungeons is really that worthwhile. Barring proof of that, however, where else do you suggest the Expert's Experience go? I REALLY don't think giving it to Phyress is necessary or best.

Wrath of Forcefulness, eh?  I've always been scared to use that sealstone, but I just got an idea.

What's our likely crystal count by that point?  If it's close enough to the requirement for restoring that one, I'd be all over using extra battles to get the crystals to restore that.  (SO WHAT if it takes 5 minutes' worth of battles - I'm very sure you can recover those five minutes at minimum from boss times.)

....wouldn't help us against Heimdall and Ull, since you can't use sealstones against those guys, but it'd help obliterate a lot of other bosses.

My other question is, as far as Soul Crushes, would Wrath of Forcefulness apply the break chance to every hit, or just one of them?

As for Brilliant Peacemaker, I understand that I've found the necessary enemy in basically only one spot in Ancient Forest, and the drop itself is rare as it is.  However, I'm not sure skipping out on an item with that effect for four dungeons is really that worthwhile.  Barring proof of that, however, where else do you suggest the Expert's Experience go?  I REALLY don't think giving it to Phyress is necessary or best.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2007-04-30 09:24:29 pm

2007-04-30 09:24:13 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

As AquaTiger pointed out, you can get Brilliant Peacemaker much earlier than you can get Dragon Rib. Sack Mimics are in Serdberg as well though right?

I think Wrath of Forcefulness calculates breaking on every hit (don't quote me on that though), which is why it's so worthless compared to the breaking weapons in VP1.

I'm pretty sure that 500 crystals is prohibitively expensive. I think that plus the breaking thing, TAF was probably just making a point.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-04-30 09:34:13 pm

2007-04-30 09:33:07 pm

Never give up!

Quote:

As AquaTiger pointed out, you can get Brilliant Peacemaker much earlier than you can get Dragon Rib. Sack Mimics are in Serdberg as well though right?

I think Wrath of Forcefulness calculates breaking on every hit (don't quote me on that though), which is why it's so worthless compared to the breaking weapons in VP1.

I'm pretty sure that 500 crystals is prohibitively expensive. I think that plus the breaking thing, TAF was probably just making a point.

Yes, Sack Mimics do appear in Serdberg. However, they are rarer in Serdberg than they are in Ancient Forest, to the best of my knowledge. In addition, we have enough luck things in Serdberg as it is (Celes in first part, Woltar on second part, Soul Pierce on third part, and then making it back without a single encounter - at best we'd shove it in part four), and I think Sack Mimics in Serdberg can only be found behind walls AFTER already entering a battle. Whereas Sack Mimics are found in one specific area with some reliability in Ancient Forest, and you don't need to go through extra work to find them once entering the battle.

I really think Wrath of Forcefulness needs to be examined directly before we know whether the ATK increase is constantly worth the manipulation of luck to prevent a weapon break.

[quote]As AquaTiger pointed out, you can get Brilliant Peacemaker much earlier than you can get Dragon Rib. Sack Mimics are in Serdberg as well though right?

I think Wrath of Forcefulness calculates breaking on every hit (don't quote me on that though), which is why it's so worthless compared to the breaking weapons in VP1.

I'm pretty sure that 500 crystals is prohibitively expensive. I think that plus the breaking thing, TAF was probably just making a point.[/quote]

Yes, Sack Mimics do appear in Serdberg.  However, they are rarer in Serdberg than they are in Ancient Forest, to the best of my knowledge.  In addition, we have enough luck things in Serdberg as it is (Celes in first part, Woltar on second part, Soul Pierce on third part, and then making it back without a single encounter - at best we'd shove it in part four), and I think Sack Mimics in Serdberg can only be found behind walls AFTER already entering a battle.  Whereas Sack Mimics are found in one specific area with some reliability in Ancient Forest, and you don't need to go through extra work to find them once entering the battle.

I really think Wrath of Forcefulness needs to be examined directly before we know whether the ATK increase is constantly worth the manipulation of luck to prevent a weapon break.

tri-Ace Fanboy

2007-04-30 09:49:46 pm

Direct Assault!

Wrath of Forcefulness needs 16 Direct Assaults, assuming no extra crystals from juggling. I don't know about restoring, but it's free to use in the Palace of Venerated Dragon. I don't know how the breaking chance works either, but it seems it doesn't break on 1-hit kills.

I think the Brilliant Peacemaker takes too long. You have to release Richelle, get the Expert's Experience in Coriander, go back to Ancient Forest, keep loading until the 15% chance happens, then you have to get hurt and stay that way for it to work.

The Dragon Rib doesn't take any additional time to get, is better (+10% ATK regardless of HP) and by then you have to Bloody Patch to get you hurt. You could even get a second one without spending much extra time.

Enhasa

2007-04-30 11:11:25 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Wrath of Forcefulness needs 16 Direct Assaults, assuming no extra crystals from juggling. I don't know about restoring, but it's free to use in the Palace of Venerated Dragon. I don't know how the breaking chance works either, but it seems it doesn't break on 1-hit kills.

Is that 16 assuming you are or are not getting Sword Blessing?

Also, the not breaking on 1-hit kills is just like VP1. Weapons don't break off kills, only off non-kills because that's when the trigger checks.

tri-Ace Fanboy

2007-05-01 04:16:43 am

Direct Assault!

16 for the 500 crystals. Sword Blessing needs 4 DAs, so you don't need to fight any random battles to get it (4 forced fights before Serdberg).

About who to give the Expert Experience to, I wonder if it's better to not get Richelle, considering it takes time to materialize and level her for little results. With DAs and 2 characters in the party, Kraad will reach level 6 after the Wyvern, not including any random battles for items.

Getting the Kraadicator then makes the Griffon faster, and you can use the Double-check (from Dipan Castle) for about 146000 experience total, 73000 for Dylan and Celes (if they're the only ones in the fight). That would put both of them around level 10, bringing the average up to 7. This results in a level 7 or 8 Phyress (just reload for higher level) and should be enough for the Kraken. After that you get Zunde and levels don't matter anymore until Gerald, if he's indeed a good choice.

All-purpose combo for Chapter 3: Flame Shot, Absolute Strike, Sweep Dive, Descending Sword, Shrapnel Shatter, Mist Phantom, Flare Blast, Double Swing, Dreaded Radius, Ascending Sword. Between 23 and 27 hits, between 5 and 21 AP recovered. With Overdrive that's between 25 and 41 AP recovered.

16 for the 500 crystals. Sword Blessing needs 4 DAs, so you don't need to fight any random battles to get it (4 forced fights before Serdberg).

About who to give the Expert Experience to, I wonder if it's better to not get Richelle, considering it takes time to materialize and level her for little results. With DAs and 2 characters in the party, Kraad will reach level 6 after the Wyvern, not including any random battles for items.

Getting the Kraadicator then makes the Griffon faster, and you can use the Double-check (from Dipan Castle) for about 146000 experience total, 73000 for Dylan and Celes (if they're the only ones in the fight). That would put both of them around level 10, bringing the average up to 7. This results in a level 7 or 8 Phyress (just reload for higher level) and should be enough for the Kraken. After that you get Zunde and levels don't matter anymore until Gerald, if he's indeed a good choice.

All-purpose combo for Chapter 3: Flame Shot, Absolute Strike, Sweep Dive, Descending Sword, Shrapnel Shatter, Mist Phantom, Flare Blast, Double Swing, Dreaded Radius, Ascending Sword. Between 23 and 27 hits, between 5 and 21 AP recovered. With Overdrive that's between 25 and 41 AP recovered.

AquaTiger

2007-05-01 12:12:46 pm

Never give up!

Hmmm.... no Richelle? In that case, what I'm considering doing is aiming for Sylphide and putting her Free Item skill to use in a few fights (I can keep her out of the party until at LEAST the Kraken fight).

As far as releasing with her? I see three options:
-get Gram (least desirable, but least random)
-force the Vampire Lord in Tower of Lezard Valeth to give a Vampire Sword (most desirable, as you have to fight one anyway - that's a 10% drop, but hey, that's what segments are for)
-get into an extra fight with a Nymph and break their heads for Helgi's Sword (middle-road because, though the sword's stronger than Glance Reviver, it means an extra battle - for what I think is another very rare drop)

I'm still not sure what to do with two of the remaining five free Expert's Experience later on. (I need to save three for Valkyrie at the end, as they'll grant one levelup and allow her to learn Mirage Pierce, one of those moves I REALLY want to put in her combo.) In my practice run I used them to bring Rufus back up to speed, but couldn't reach level 25 with him in time for Arectaris (and I don't know if there's a reasonable way to do so), probably because I was too focused on getting Einherjar to release level.

Also, I always thought it was 30 crystals per DA, in which case 16 wouldn't be enough (you'd end up with 480). Anyway, not counting the 4 DAs for Sword Blessing, we have only one or two guaranteed DAs left, so chasing after Wrath of Forcefulness has become nearly out of the question (it's not going to fully be that until I look at the situation).

Hmmm.... no Richelle?  In that case, what I'm considering doing is aiming for Sylphide and putting her Free Item skill to use in a few fights (I can keep her out of the party until at LEAST the Kraken fight).

As far as releasing with her?  I see three options:
-get Gram (least desirable, but least random)
-force the Vampire Lord in Tower of Lezard Valeth to give a Vampire Sword (most desirable, as you have to fight one anyway - that's a 10% drop, but hey, that's what segments are for)
-get into an extra fight with a Nymph and break their heads for Helgi's Sword (middle-road because, though the sword's stronger than Glance Reviver, it means an extra battle - for what I think is another very rare drop)

I'm still not sure what to do with two of the remaining five free Expert's Experience later on.  (I need to save three for Valkyrie at the end, as they'll grant one levelup and allow her to learn Mirage Pierce, one of those moves I REALLY want to put in her combo.)  In my practice run I used them to bring Rufus back up to speed, but couldn't reach level 25 with him in time for Arectaris (and I don't know if there's a reasonable way to do so), probably because I was too focused on getting Einherjar to release level.

Also, I always thought it was 30 crystals per DA, in which case 16 wouldn't be enough (you'd end up with 480).  Anyway, not counting the 4 DAs for Sword Blessing, we have only one or two guaranteed DAs left, so chasing after Wrath of Forcefulness has become nearly out of the question (it's not going to fully be that until I look at the situation).

Enhasa

2007-05-01 12:55:15 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

-get into an extra fight with a Nymph and break their heads for Helgi's Sword (middle-road because, though the sword's stronger than Glance Reviver, it means an extra battle - for what I think is another very rare drop)

When I was doing my patented "Sucky Release," I remember I got Helgi's Swords really easily, FWIW.

Quote:

Also, I always thought it was 30 crystals per DA, in which case 16 wouldn't be enough (you'd end up with 480). Anyway, not counting the 4 DAs for Sword Blessing, we have only one or two guaranteed DAs left, so chasing after Wrath of Forcefulness has become nearly out of the question (it's not going to fully be that until I look at the situation).

Not that this would be any useful to a speedrun probably, but if you farm at the beginning in Lost Forest, you can DA 3 groups in exactly one minute. Then again, if you ever want to gain crystals without the bother, you can use a turbo controller and tie rubber bands down to attack and left. You need to have some kind of basic setup like freeze protection (like Ham-Star) and something that will keep you going like Victorious Vitality, as well as a couple things in the config. Then you go to the loopy part of Forest of Spirits. Then you go to sleep. When you wake up, you'll have lots of crystals. I forget how fast it goes, but it's a bit slow. It's free time though. Tongue

[quote]-get into an extra fight with a Nymph and break their heads for Helgi's Sword (middle-road because, though the sword's stronger than Glance Reviver, it means an extra battle - for what I think is another very rare drop)[/quote]
When I was doing my patented "Sucky Release," I remember I got Helgi's Swords really easily, FWIW.

[quote]Also, I always thought it was 30 crystals per DA, in which case 16 wouldn't be enough (you'd end up with 480).  Anyway, not counting the 4 DAs for Sword Blessing, we have only one or two guaranteed DAs left, so chasing after Wrath of Forcefulness has become nearly out of the question (it's not going to fully be that until I look at the situation).[/quote]
Not that this would be any useful to a speedrun probably, but if you farm at the beginning in Lost Forest, you can DA 3 groups in exactly one minute. Then again, if you ever want to gain crystals without the bother, you can use a turbo controller and tie rubber bands down to attack and left. You need to have some kind of basic setup like freeze protection (like Ham-Star) and something that will keep you going like Victorious Vitality, as well as a couple things in the config. Then you go to the loopy part of Forest of Spirits. Then you go to sleep. When you wake up, you'll have lots of crystals. I forget how fast it goes, but it's a bit slow. It's free time though. :P

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-05-01 10:19:15 pm

2007-05-01 10:17:27 pm

Never give up!

Quote:

Not that this would be any useful to a speedrun probably, but if you farm at the beginning in Lost Forest, you can DA 3 groups in exactly one minute.

If I find Wrath of Forcefulness to be worth it (I'm not going to get another chance to play my PS2 until Monday, May 7th at earliest, so I can't test it yet - suffice to say I'm starting my test run over at that point), an early spot like this would probably be the crystal-harvesting spot. It would be after the events in Dipan though, since I can use Dylan and/or Kraad at their higher levels for the job. At the rate you mention it'd take 7 or 8 minutes to get all the necessary crystals (adding in time for minor mistakes - which are inevitably going to happen - and respawning the enemies).

Anyway, assuming my old Einherjar collection list stays, I think I'll wait to level most of the ones I'm not using until at least Palace of the Venerated Dragon (Alicia is on the sidelines in the fight at Crawsus so she can get her 3 needed skills all at once), rather than starting their levelling as soon as I get them. The only two that I want to release early are Kraad (duh) and Mithra (I SHOULD be able to find a use for that Holy Water).

[quote]Not that this would be any useful to a speedrun probably, but if you farm at the beginning in Lost Forest, you can DA 3 groups in exactly one minute.[/quote]

If I find Wrath of Forcefulness to be worth it (I'm not going to get another chance to play my PS2 until Monday, May 7th at earliest, so I can't test it yet - suffice to say I'm starting my test run over at that point), an early spot like this would probably be the crystal-harvesting spot.  It would be after the events in Dipan though, since I can use Dylan and/or Kraad at their higher levels for the job.  At the rate you mention it'd take 7 or 8 minutes to get all the necessary crystals (adding in time for minor mistakes - which are inevitably going to happen - and respawning the enemies).

Anyway, assuming my old Einherjar collection list stays, I think I'll wait to level most of the ones I'm not using until at least Palace of the Venerated Dragon (Alicia is on the sidelines in the fight at Crawsus so she can get her 3 needed skills all at once), rather than starting their levelling as soon as I get them.  The only two that I want to release early are Kraad (duh) and Mithra (I SHOULD be able to find a use for that Holy Water).

tri-Ace Fanboy

2007-05-02 01:27:05 am

Direct Assault!

Yeah my bad, 17 DAs for 510 crystals.

I think the less Einherjar, the better. Bosses can usually be killed really fast without releases, to the point that I don't think they help. Levelling Einherjars also slows down levelling the active characters, and other than materializing you'll spend time equipping them, changing the party, etc. It would have to be a very large boost to make a difference.

I'd get Alm/Woltar to raise the average level for Phyress, though.

What are the 3 skills Alicia needs? Fists of Iron, Magician Slayer, Mental Boost? Keep in mind that Lezard's resistance is too high (80% without Six Elements Blessing), so her MAG is of little use without Psychosoma.

Enhasa

2007-05-02 02:24:26 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I am a big minimalism guy myself, so my biggest concern with the current run is getting too many einherjar. I know you must have considered it and probably addressed this earlier in the thread but: why wouldn't Solitary Struggle be a good idea?

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-05-02 01:00:17 pm

2007-05-02 03:34:15 am

Never give up!

I don't think I addressed Solitary Struggle. Problem is, Solitary Struggle still needs a base from which to work.

The original skill set for Valkyrie in the final battle as I'd considered was Fists of Iron, Mental Boost, Psychosoma, and Toughness (the last of which Valkyrie knows automatically). These consumed all 12 points. However, viewing the current run's final battle again, I don't see much of a need for Toughness (Meteor Swarm isn't that strong, and lower max HP means Dragon Rib would power us up sooner). So Solitary Struggle could compete with Magician Slayer (Anarchic Entity Lezard IS a mage, after all) for the last spot, although I frankly think Magician Slayer would be more favorable.

........these skill setups are becoming absurdly painful.

(And my thing on einherjar works more toward what helps most based on equipment that can be chosen. I'm getting fewer than the current run does as it is - in my yet-unlisted revision, I'm dropping two archers (I only have two bows that are worth using to release, which Sha-Kon/Chrystie and Phyress will get, and I am NOT releasing with Doublecross - if I choose to use an SC chain against Anarchic Entity, Rufus will need that, and even if not, it doesn't have enough ATK to be worth releasing), two or three sorcerers (I need to check on the Unicorn's Horn, although it looks unlikely I'll go for it based solely on my memories of that painful puzzle - Xehnon/Masato and Aegis are guaranteed skips, but I'm thinking Khanon is the next-best one to skip and not Psoron/Farant), and possibly a light fighter (if I decide getting an extra sword through one of my three options isn't worth it, I'll probably drop the idea of taking Sylphide) - and releasing with too few isn't a good idea either since Valkyrie will be too weak to make the final battle go fast enough.)

Edit: Another thing we need to talk about is sealstone strategy. Up to about Surt's Volcano Caverns, it seems okay to take from the current run, but right there, wouldn't carrying Iceberg Law for Evolver be better than taking up Fire Blessing? The reason you'd do the latter is to reduce his damage, but I wonder if carrying Iceberg Law (to turn Zunde's attacks to Ice, an element to which Evolver's weak) would be better. It's not like we had fire resistance to begin with. I'm not so sure about this, because I thought I heard somewhere that this would change the focal stat to MAG instead of ATK, actually making Zunde fight WORSE.

And I've thought of where I want to use the Holy Water of Mithra. Because of how much trouble I had with him last time, I plan on using it against Ull when he's down to about 1/3 of his hit points.

I don't think I addressed Solitary Struggle.  Problem is, Solitary Struggle still needs a base from which to work.

The original skill set for Valkyrie in the final battle as I'd considered was Fists of Iron, Mental Boost, Psychosoma, and Toughness (the last of which Valkyrie knows automatically).  These consumed all 12 points.  However, viewing the current run's final battle again, I don't see much of a need for Toughness (Meteor Swarm isn't that strong, and lower max HP means Dragon Rib would power us up sooner).  So Solitary Struggle could compete with Magician Slayer (Anarchic Entity Lezard IS a mage, after all) for the last spot, although I frankly think Magician Slayer would be more favorable.

........these skill setups are becoming absurdly painful.

(And my thing on einherjar works more toward what helps most based on equipment that can be chosen.  I'm getting fewer than the current run does as it is - in my yet-unlisted revision, I'm dropping two archers (I only have two bows that are worth using to release, which Sha-Kon/Chrystie and Phyress will get, and I am NOT releasing with Doublecross - if I choose to use an SC chain against Anarchic Entity, Rufus will need that, and even if not, it doesn't have enough ATK to be worth releasing), two or three sorcerers (I need to check on the Unicorn's Horn, although it looks unlikely I'll go for it based solely on my memories of that painful puzzle - Xehnon/Masato and Aegis are guaranteed skips, but I'm thinking Khanon is the next-best one to skip and not Psoron/Farant), and possibly a light fighter (if I decide getting an extra sword through one of my three options isn't worth it, I'll probably drop the idea of taking Sylphide) - and releasing with too few isn't a good idea either since Valkyrie will be too weak to make the final battle go fast enough.)

Edit: Another thing we need to talk about is sealstone strategy.  [s]Up to about Surt's Volcano Caverns, it seems okay to take from the current run, but right there, wouldn't carrying Iceberg Law for Evolver be better than taking up Fire Blessing?  The reason you'd do the latter is to reduce his damage, but I wonder if carrying Iceberg Law (to turn Zunde's attacks to Ice, an element to which Evolver's weak) would be better.  It's not like we had fire resistance to begin with.[/s]  I'm not so sure about this, because I thought I heard somewhere that this would change the focal stat to MAG instead of ATK, actually making Zunde fight WORSE.

And I've thought of where I want to use the Holy Water of Mithra.  Because of how much trouble I had with him last time, I plan on using it against Ull when he's down to about 1/3 of his hit points.

tri-Ace Fanboy

2007-05-02 10:13:13 pm

Direct Assault!

Wouldn't Odin be safer? Spiritual Lancer is almost impossible to avoid and he starts using it often around 40% of his health. Desperate Horror is easy to avoid if you stay behind Ull.

Solitary Struggle might be good in some solo fights like the crystal, but I think using 2 or 3 characters is much more useful overall, considering for how long you can attack with Spirit Control and Overdrives. Soul Crushes are very useful at high (50+) combos too.

drhades on Youtube has videos of all boss fights in 2 crystal difficulty. It's not a speed run so he has more accessories, sealstones and all that, but enemies have triple HP and he doesn't use any releases, so it's still a good reference. He gets many DAs (including Freya and the first Lezard) with Soul Crushes.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-05-02 11:22:52 pm

2007-05-02 11:20:58 pm

Never give up!

That's going to depend on how sealstones and skills turn out.

Odin doesn't have that many more HP than Ull (just 3000 more according to Kouli's guide), and unlike our archer deity friend, we can use sealstones against Odin. If Wrath of Forcefulness pans out, using the Holy Water on Odin will be a waste of time - I can cut off an attack chain early and make the next one longer in order to avoid triggering Spiritual Lancer.

Now, what if Wrath of Forcefulness DOESN'T pan out? We're still going to be boosting our attack damage by quite a bit, so there's a chance we can still beat Odin without triggering it. And if we DO trigger Spiritual Lancer? I seem to recall it being an attack that hits only one target. If we must revive the struck character, so be it.

Also keep in mind that Ull has healing and a shielding ability. I want to avoid triggering those at all costs, as those are really the things that will slow the fight down the most.

Lastly, I never view segmented runs as being about safety. In fact, last I checked, segmented runs were basically all about using risky or luck-based strategies to get the best possible time. In an SS, sure, saving it for Odin would likely be the best policy (there's still a small window where Spiritual Lancer can occur before you get the chance to use such an item though, AFAIK).

....I have an idea for testing something before I even get there. tri-Ace Fanboy, remember that Zunde setup you mentioned when you were suggesting the Dragon Rib rather than the Brilliant Peacemaker? Could you tell me how much Zunde does to Dragon Zombie in that situation without Wrath of Forcefulness, but with everything else that's part of the setup? (I'm doubting that it's 1/3 of the damage dealt WITH that sealstone, and I want to confirm or deny this doubt. If it's too close to the damage with that stone, I'll probably drop considering it altogether.)

That's going to depend on how sealstones and skills turn out.

Odin doesn't have that many more HP than Ull (just 3000 more according to Kouli's guide), and unlike our archer deity friend, we can use sealstones against Odin.  If Wrath of Forcefulness pans out, using the Holy Water on Odin will be a waste of time - I can cut off an attack chain early and make the next one longer in order to avoid triggering Spiritual Lancer.

Now, what if Wrath of Forcefulness DOESN'T pan out?  We're still going to be boosting our attack damage by quite a bit, so there's a chance we can still beat Odin without triggering it.  And if we DO trigger Spiritual Lancer?  I seem to recall it being an attack that hits only one target.  If we must revive the struck character, so be it.

Also keep in mind that Ull has healing and a shielding ability.  I want to avoid triggering those at all costs, as those are really the things that will slow the fight down the most.

Lastly, I never view segmented runs as being about safety.  In fact, last I checked, segmented runs were basically all about using risky or luck-based strategies to get the best possible time.  In an SS, sure, saving it for Odin would likely be the best policy (there's still a small window where Spiritual Lancer can occur before you get the chance to use such an item though, AFAIK).

....I have an idea for testing something before I even get there.  tri-Ace Fanboy, remember that Zunde setup you mentioned when you were suggesting the Dragon Rib rather than the Brilliant Peacemaker? Could you tell me how much Zunde does to Dragon Zombie in that situation without Wrath of Forcefulness, but with everything else that's part of the setup?  (I'm doubting that it's 1/3 of the damage dealt WITH that sealstone, and I want to confirm or deny this doubt.  If it's too close to the damage with that stone, I'll probably drop considering it altogether.)

tri-Ace Fanboy

2007-05-02 11:54:12 pm

Direct Assault!

Good points, I forgot about Ull's shield.

Zunde would indeed deal around 1/3 of the damage without Wrath of Forcefulness. Since it's a non-elemental attack ATK is the only factor, so the only change is the lack of the extra x3 multiplier.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-05-04 04:12:30 am

2007-05-04 02:58:56 am

Never give up!

Alright then. My suspicion had been about the order of multipliers. So does this mean sealstones are applied last?

Anyway, that sealstone's a "segmented run only" stone. I'm not sure what to replace that with in an SS if replacing it is at all possible.

Speaking of SS, I'm trying to think of some strategy differences between that and a normal run. I think rather than sticking fairly strictly to our strategies, leaning somewhat on Alkaiser's strategies would help an SS run more, for various reasons (for one thing, Zunde's unlikely and getting Ehrde instead of Phyress isn't exactly the end of the world - in fact it might actually be BETTER). I see a need for a few more releases to help stats, for instance.

Here's what I can think of for an SS right now:
-The only einherjar we should count on is Kraad. Other than that, I say plan for the worst case scenario and adjust if we get GOOD luck.
-I foresee releasing three heavy warriors (this counts Kraad), two light fighters, two or maybe three archers (the third would be with Elvenbow), and four sorcerers (I'm in favor of getting the Unicorn's Horn this time - and if we don't go for that, I say buy a Lotus Wand and release Mithra with that instead of the Dragonlore) over the course of the game.
-Boss strategies for the first two areas should probably stay the same as OUR strategies. But for Wyvern, I say go for a 'transfer' kill like the current run. Not sure what to say about Griffon - I don't see that fight changing much.
-In Audoula, like I said, getting Ehrde isn't the end of the world. He still has the crucial attack we absolutely need out of him - Flame Shot. Plus he has Sap Guard which could help us out for a short while. (We can make up for the lack of Psychosoma later if we must.) Kraken might cause some issues since Dylan's my main attacker.
-In Sahma Desert, the worst-case scenario is Dyn, as he doesn't get any remotely decent attacks until level 23 (Smashing Swing). He gets Sweep Dive at level 31 which is way too late for us, and Dreaded Radius doesn't come until even later. Aaron at least gets Sweep Dive at level 14 (having Smashing Swing at level 6), though he gets Dreaded Radius a bit too late (level 31 I believe). In all honesty, depending on how things go early, if I get Dyn, I'm highly considering scrapping a run at that point..... unless someone comes up with an idea to make Dyn remotely effective (I know I'M at a loss).

Will come up with more later.

Alright then.  My suspicion had been about the order of multipliers.  So does this mean sealstones are applied last?

Anyway, that sealstone's a "segmented run only" stone.  I'm not sure what to replace that with in an SS if replacing it is at all possible.

Speaking of SS, I'm trying to think of some strategy differences between that and a normal run.  I think rather than sticking fairly strictly to our strategies, leaning somewhat on Alkaiser's strategies would help an SS run more, for various reasons (for one thing, Zunde's unlikely and getting Ehrde instead of Phyress isn't exactly the end of the world - in fact it might actually be BETTER).  I see a need for a few more releases to help stats, for instance.

Here's what I can think of for an SS right now:
-The only einherjar we should count on is Kraad.  Other than that, I say plan for the worst case scenario and adjust if we get GOOD luck.
-I foresee releasing three heavy warriors (this counts Kraad), two light fighters, two or maybe three archers (the third would be with Elvenbow), and four sorcerers (I'm in favor of getting the Unicorn's Horn this time - and if we don't go for that, I say buy a Lotus Wand and release Mithra with that instead of the Dragonlore) over the course of the game.
-Boss strategies for the first two areas should probably stay the same as OUR strategies.  But for Wyvern, I say go for a 'transfer' kill like the current run.  Not sure what to say about Griffon - I don't see that fight changing much.
-In Audoula, like I said, getting Ehrde isn't the end of the world.  He still has the crucial attack we absolutely need out of him - Flame Shot.  Plus he has Sap Guard which could help us out for a short while.  (We can make up for the lack of Psychosoma later if we must.)  Kraken might cause some issues since Dylan's my main attacker.
-In Sahma Desert, the worst-case scenario is Dyn, as he doesn't get any remotely decent attacks until level 23 (Smashing Swing).  He gets Sweep Dive at level 31 which is way too late for us, and Dreaded Radius doesn't come until even later.  Aaron at least gets Sweep Dive at level 14 (having Smashing Swing at level 6), though he gets Dreaded Radius a bit too late (level 31 I believe).  In all honesty, depending on how things go early, if I get Dyn, I'm highly considering scrapping a run at that point..... unless someone comes up with an idea to make Dyn remotely effective (I know I'M at a loss).

Will come up with more later.

tri-Ace Fanboy

2007-05-04 02:18:54 pm

Direct Assault!

There are basically two kinds of bonuses: stat and damage. Bonuses of the same kind are stacked first (by multiplication), then applied to either the stat or the final damage. Their origin (sealstone, skill, spell, etc.) doesn't make a difference in the formula. So for a non-elemental attack it would be:

{ (ATK x (Attack Bonus) - RDM) x Attack Multiplier } x Damage Bonus

However if you ignore the RDM (it's too low to make a real difference in this case) it's basically the same as just multipling everything. Not really the same since there are some rounding issues, but it's accurate enough. This is only for non-elemental attacks.

Giant Killer and Bloody Patch are damage bonuses. The others are ATK bonuses.