Vagrant Story run completed! 1:59 by RiskBreakerY

gredgie

Edit history:

gredgie: 2013-01-23 09:19:31 am

2013-01-23 07:12:43 am

And I'd do it again...

I have been trying to compile shorthand notes, but you are right given that there are so many rooms and places where you backtrack, you'll inevitably have to adjust your notes and the only time you can really do so is the non-skippable boss intro scenes (except Kali's, which you can skip for some reason).

I messed around for an hour or so yesterday trying to see if there was any way to glitch through Grimmoire sealed doors, if the "go to next area panel" behind it is activated whilst the door is locked. Likely though, if Exileut never found anything like that, it's probably not doable.

The key thing, as you say though, is defense practice, as well as high chain practice since bosses provide the only realistic chain farming potential whilst on the go for the 20-34-18-23.

For now I'm stuck using a PSP to practice on the PAL version, so it'll be a bit before I can really get competitive with times.
For a single segment run, I'd put the splits around:

SEGMENT 01: Game Start -> Dragon
START: [Wine Cellar] Entrance to Darkness
END: [Sanctum] The Cleansing Chantry
TARGET TIME: 00:22:26

SEGMENT 02: Dragon -> Giant Crab
START: [Sanctum] The Cleansing Chantry
END: [Undercity West] Underdark Fishmarket
TARGET TIME: 00:39:06

SEGMENT 03: Giant Crab -> Sky Dragon
START: [Undercity West] Underdark Fishmarket
END: [Abandoned Mines B2] Dining in Darkness
TARGET TIME: 00:59:00

SEGMENT 04: Sky Dragon -> Ogre Lord
START: [Abandoned Mines B2] Dining in Darkness
END: [Limestone Quarry] Torture Without End
TARGET TIME: 01:21:06

SEGMENT 05: Ogre Lord -> Djinn
START: [Limestone Quarry] Torture Without End
END: [Great Cathedral] The Flayed Confessional
TARGET TIME: 01:38:40

SEGMENT 06: Djinn -> Guildenstern
START: [Great Cathedral] The Flayed Confessional
END: [Great Cathedral] The Atrium
TARGET TIME: 01:58:16

But for practice purposes, I might break it down into your 12 segments. So I can practice each segment at whim. Then, slowly but surely, I can merge segments. Until I can run through each segment without death. Then I'll likely feel ready to even consider attempting an SS run.

Though, for clarity, although I sound confident, I am realistic that I require a monumental amount of work before this is viable for me :>. But it's a fantastic game and has so much potential for challenge that it'd be a shame not to give it a go.

I have been trying to compile shorthand notes, but you are right given that there are so many rooms and places where you backtrack, you'll inevitably have to adjust your notes and the only time you can really do so is the non-skippable boss intro scenes (except Kali's, which you can skip for some reason).

I messed around for an hour or so yesterday trying to see if there was any way to glitch through Grimmoire sealed doors, if the "go to next area panel" behind it is activated whilst the door is locked. Likely though, if Exileut never found anything like that, it's probably not doable.

The key thing, as you say though, is defense practice, as well as high chain practice since bosses provide the only realistic chain farming potential whilst on the go for the 20-34-18-23.

For now I'm stuck using a PSP to practice on the PAL version, so it'll be a bit before I can really get competitive with times.
For a single segment run, I'd put the splits around:

SEGMENT 01: Game Start -> Dragon
START: [Wine Cellar] Entrance to Darkness
END: [Sanctum] The Cleansing Chantry
TARGET TIME: 00:22:26

SEGMENT 02: Dragon -> Giant Crab
START: [Sanctum] The Cleansing Chantry
END: [Undercity West] Underdark Fishmarket
TARGET TIME: 00:39:06

SEGMENT 03: Giant Crab -> Sky Dragon
START: [Undercity West] Underdark Fishmarket
END: [Abandoned Mines B2] Dining in Darkness
TARGET TIME: 00:59:00

SEGMENT 04: Sky Dragon -> Ogre Lord
START: [Abandoned Mines B2] Dining in Darkness
END: [Limestone Quarry] Torture Without End
TARGET TIME: 01:21:06

SEGMENT 05: Ogre Lord -> Djinn
START: [Limestone Quarry] Torture Without End
END: [Great Cathedral] The Flayed Confessional
TARGET TIME: 01:38:40

SEGMENT 06: Djinn -> Guildenstern
START: [Great Cathedral] The Flayed Confessional
END: [Great Cathedral] The Atrium
TARGET TIME: 01:58:16

But for practice purposes, I might break it down into your 12 segments. So I can practice each segment at whim. Then, slowly but surely, I can merge segments. Until I can run through each segment without death. Then I'll likely feel ready to even consider attempting an SS run.

Though, for clarity, although I sound confident, I am realistic that I require a monumental amount of work before this is viable for me :>. But it's a fantastic game and has so much potential for challenge that it'd be a shame not to give it a go.

Riskbreaker Y

Edit history:

Riskbreaker Y: 2013-01-24 08:16:28 pm

Riskbreaker Y: 2013-01-23 09:18:17 pm

Riskbreaker Y: 2013-01-23 09:18:07 pm

2013-01-23 09:17:07 pm

berserker status

The boss fight intros are pretty much the only time you would get to glance at your notes, for sure. Maybe after boss fights as well. Her intro is skippable since it's part of a cutscene.

Yea I've spent a lot of time trying to get some kind of oob glitches to work by jumping, drawing & sheating my weapon, going into first-person mode, etc. in some combination or other by doorways. For now it doesn't seem possible, but you can never say never I guess.

Those splits and estimates look pretty reasonable. Usually if I sneak a peek at my time at a save point I do it at the end of your segment 1, at the Warrior's Rest (before Rosencrantz), or before the Limestone Quarry. Obviously I lose time doing that so I wouldn't do it while recording. The time penalty for saving does make SSing this more attractive considering there's at least 2 mins. to be cut from that alone.

It's GOOD that you feel confident about running this game, though. There's no way you can expect to time a guard an hour and half into the run without being a little ballsy and consistent. The more you play the more you'll get a feel for when to expect to guard or get away with an evasive jump/initiating the combat sphere.

edit: Beamup's Combat Mechanics Guide that has chain evasion stats for each enemy's body parts.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/914326-vagrant-story/faqs/56772

The boss fight intros are pretty much the only time you would get to glance at your notes, for sure.  Maybe after boss fights as well.  Her intro is skippable since it's part of a cutscene.

Yea I've spent a lot of time trying to get some kind of oob glitches to work by jumping, drawing & sheating my weapon, going into first-person mode, etc. in some combination or other by doorways.  For now it doesn't seem possible, but you can never say never I guess.

Those splits and estimates look pretty reasonable.  Usually if I sneak a peek at my time at a save point I do it at the end of your segment 1, at the Warrior's Rest (before Rosencrantz), or before the Limestone Quarry.  Obviously I lose time doing that so I wouldn't do it while recording.  The time penalty for saving does make SSing this more attractive considering there's at least 2 mins. to be cut from that alone.

It's GOOD that you feel confident about running this game, though.  There's no way you can expect to time a guard an hour and half into the run without being a little ballsy and consistent.  The more you play the more you'll get a feel for when to expect to guard or get away with an evasive jump/initiating the combat sphere.

edit:  Beamup's Combat Mechanics Guide that has chain evasion stats for each enemy's body parts.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/914326-vagrant-story/faqs/56772

Riskbreaker Y

Edit history:

Riskbreaker Y: 2014-06-20 08:10:43 pm

Riskbreaker Y: 2014-06-20 08:10:29 pm

2014-06-20 08:10:01 pm

berserker status

Let me dust this thread off. Here's a ng+ run (1:15:xx) I've been sitting on for awhile that's improvable by a few mins., so no submission until then. Would rather focus my energies on doing a SS new game run once I get my set-up going again. Excuse the mediocre quality of the upload.

Back to lurking :3

Dak_Rey

2014-09-24 08:30:58 pm

Quick question: Seems that you use the Fandango for the entire run (NG), but wouldn't it save time to switch to the Magnolia Frau after Duane? It chains much faster than then the Fandango and there is a lot of chaining to be done throughout that I would expect to more than make up for the time loss of simply changing weapon. Barehanded also chains very quickly, but with the Magnolia Frau you can keep the shield. Or is there something that I'm missing?

Riskbreaker Y

2014-09-25 08:19:02 am

berserker status

Using Magnolia Frau would save time over the course of the entire run, you are correct. Moooh pointed this out a few years ago and it is agreed that it is the optimal weapon to use for ng. The main issue, however, is that it has a range rating of 2 versus Fandango's 3 and that can make a significant difference when it comes to initiating combat. Shields are irrelevant in speedruns, because they can't protect you from ohko's. Your defense abilities and magic ward should suffice; also, the idea is to keep your HP low for getting the most out of Raging Ache.

Right now I'm trying to SS (attempts every couple weeks gah) in phases: Fandango w/ magic ward crutch, Fandango w/ only defense timing skills, then move onto Magnolia Frau. I could definitely improve the segmented run, but doing an RTA of this is something I've wanted to do for awhile. It's really hard obviously, I just need to be patient and put more attempts in.

There's a TAS wip on yt by Exileut that's defunct if you want to see ridiculous strats that are impossible (when it comes to manipulating enemy movement). I'm really hoping a certain someone figures out a way into the debug room without codes so that we can have a major skips category too.

Using Magnolia Frau would save time over the course of the entire run, you are correct.  Moooh pointed this out a few years ago and it is agreed that it is the optimal weapon to use for ng.  The main issue, however, is that it has a range rating of 2 versus Fandango's 3 and that can make a significant difference when it comes to initiating combat.  Shields are irrelevant in speedruns, because they can't protect you from ohko's.  Your defense abilities and magic ward should suffice; also, the idea is to keep your HP low for getting the most out of Raging Ache.

Right now I'm trying to SS (attempts every couple weeks gah) in phases:  Fandango w/ magic ward crutch, Fandango w/ only defense timing skills, then move onto Magnolia Frau.  I could definitely improve the segmented run, but doing an RTA of this is something I've wanted to do for awhile.  It's really hard obviously, I just need to be patient and put more attempts in.

There's a TAS wip on yt by Exileut that's defunct if you want to see ridiculous strats that are impossible (when it comes to manipulating enemy movement).  I'm really hoping a certain someone figures out a way into the debug room without codes so that we can have a major skips category too.

TheVelcronomicon

Edit history:

TheVelcronomicon: 2014-09-25 02:48:57 pm

2014-09-25 02:45:17 pm

Great to hear that you're still around. I've been wanting to do RTAs of the game for almost a year and only started recently. Myself and Dak_rey had been discussing the idea of an alternative to the Fandango and I noticed that the Magolia Frau's range doesn't seen to hinder me much for most of the game. The only bosses I know would be a little bit harder would be some of the elemental bosses in the Cathedral since I can't chain their head, other than that I've had no extra difficulty using it despite it's range. Even then, with the chaining speed, you're bound to get lucky with hits at some point if you chain their chest instead.

Another small point in favor of the Frau is the boost it gives to Heal (125 v. 100 on average) which can cut down on casts if you're using reflect magic on Guildenstern

Riskbreaker Y

Edit history:

Riskbreaker Y: 2014-09-25 03:21:48 pm

2014-09-25 03:11:06 pm

berserker status

Yea the range is more of an issue with winged enemies and the Djinn inside the cathedral when it boils down to it. I guess my hesitancy to move onto the Magnolia Frau stems from playing this game in a vacuum and being consistent with the chain timing. I could average like 15 with Frau, but with the Fandango I could reasonably 1-round bosses. Well, it's nice to have more people interested in this game for sure. Good to know that it's being pushed more.

That's a really strong advantage with the Healing, it should negate the need to use Magic Ward for non-AoE spells with less MP usage. Reflect magic on Guildenstern sounds like a very risky strategy at the end of an RTA when you could just chain him to death. I've considered hoarding a Faerie Wing for the very end so that I can close the distance before he casts anything. Good luck on your attempts, if you stream I'll definitely tune in.

Dak_Rey

2014-09-25 07:38:36 pm

I'd argue that reflect magic is a safer strategy than chaining him to death. The basis behind reflect magic is to be able to survive the attack, so even if you miss the defense skill you won't die, you just won't deal damage. Then you heal up as normal regardless of if you landed reflect or not.
However, if you were to mess up a defense skill on low HP because you didn't one chain him it'd be run over, not to mention getting a Faerie Wing drop is random in itself.

TheVelcronomicon

2014-09-26 03:39:10 am

The only annoyance with using Reflect Magic is that I make the mistake of healing back to full and then realizing that he's moving onto Bloody Sin, meaning I chain raging ache for a fantastic unbelievable 0 damage Tongue

Obviously not great, but by hitting him once it at least forces him to stop and go back to apocolypse spam.

Riskbreaker Y

2014-09-26 09:24:23 am

berserker status

I see the rationale behind that strategy now, plus with a successful reflect you can squeeze in a chain for more damage if you're within range. The problem with this is waiting for the casts because Guildenstern can troll at times and float around. It's a safe strategy but the fight can drag out and it still would take at least 3-4 reflects maybe? I prefer just going for a couple chains because it feels like I'm more control of the battle and having a Magic Ward up protects you from a cast so it's still pretty safe. Getting a Faerie Wing involves luck of course, I'm just saying if I happen to get one I might save it for the last battle for insurance. I guess it's a matter of preference, for me chaining a couple long combos is more consistent rather than nailing the defense timing and healing afterward. Timewise, they'd probably come out the same if your defense timing is perfect considering you have to wait for the Heal animations whereas Magic Ward is just one and done. I do the healing thing for Rosencrantz, because you never know what Break Art he'll use and some of them are affinity-based.

Out of curiosity, are there any specific areas that give you problems? What's your BP route to Raging Ache, if any? Are you using Paralysis Pulse/Dulling Ache on Quicksilvers and Gremlins? Do you have any RTA completion times?

I see the rationale behind that strategy now, plus with a successful reflect you can squeeze in a chain for more damage if you're within range.  The problem with this is waiting for the casts because Guildenstern can troll at times and float around.  It's a safe strategy but the fight can drag out and it still would take at least 3-4 reflects maybe?  I prefer just going for a couple chains because it feels like I'm more control of the battle and having a Magic Ward up protects you from a cast so it's still pretty safe.  Getting a Faerie Wing involves luck of course, I'm just saying if I happen to get one I might save it for the last battle for insurance.  I guess it's a matter of preference, for me chaining a couple long combos is more consistent rather than nailing the defense timing and healing afterward.  Timewise, they'd probably come out the same if your defense timing is perfect considering you have to wait for the Heal animations whereas Magic Ward is just one and done.  I do the healing thing for Rosencrantz, because you never know what Break Art he'll use and some of them are affinity-based.

Out of curiosity, are there any specific areas that give you problems?  What's your BP route to Raging Ache, if any?   Are you using Paralysis Pulse/Dulling Ache on Quicksilvers and Gremlins?  Do you have any RTA completion times?

TheVelcronomicon

2014-09-26 01:16:29 pm

At the moment the beginning is a the most confusing part for me, I don't really have a BP route, I just chain off all the slimes and hope. Not a very good plane. For Quicksilvers I tried messing about with trying to use the lampposts in undercity to block their LoS so they don't get much of a window to cast, though it only works in some areas, the others I just defend their Drain Heart, graciously accept silence and keep enough distance to avoid their melee attacks. If they're close I just flatout kill them which is slow but I prefer not to take my chances since they can't be Impact Guarded. I haven't done a full RTA yet, I was planning on one tomorrow but work called so I have to push it back to sunday maybe.

Dak_Rey

2014-09-27 08:13:18 am

Quote from Riskbreaker Y:

Out of curiosity, are there any specific areas that give you problems? What's your BP route to Raging Ache, if any? Are you using Paralysis Pulse/Dulling Ache on Quicksilvers and Gremlins? Do you have any RTA completion times?

The whole goddamn game gives me trouble. The more I play, the more frustrating I find it to try and be optimal and use defense timings etc. I'll honestly be quite satisfied with a sub 3 hour RTA using super safe strats, abusing the hell out of heals and magic ward. 2 hours is quite beyond the level of commitment I can put into a game.

For Raging Ache, I've just been killing whatever I think is "necessary" and I always get it before the first Dragon (which is where I would argue the benefits are first really shown).
So Dullahan (1st), Ghost, Lizards, enemies in the room where you have to move the box (2nd), Golem (3rd), Slime outside Golem room, and slime in the cloudstone room (Raging Ache).
The slime outside the Golem room poisons me, so I do have to spend time curing that. Sometimes I've killed the slime before the Golem, which if I'm lucky learns me the third skill right there and then the boss goes towards Raging Ache, but sometimes it comes up just short by one or two hits, and then 90% of the Golem chain just goes to waste. Doing the Golem first seems much more reliable and then you get full credit on the slime chain towards Raging Ache.

[quote="Riskbreaker Y"]Out of curiosity, are there any specific areas that give you problems?  What's your BP route to Raging Ache, if any?   Are you using Paralysis Pulse/Dulling Ache on Quicksilvers and Gremlins?  Do you have any RTA completion times?[/quote]

The whole goddamn game gives me trouble. The more I play, the more frustrating I find it to try and be optimal and use defense timings etc. I'll honestly be quite satisfied with a sub 3 hour RTA using super safe strats, abusing the hell out of heals and magic ward. 2 hours is quite beyond the level of commitment I can put into a game.

For Raging Ache, I've just been killing whatever I think is "necessary" and I always get it before the first Dragon (which is where I would argue the benefits are first really shown). 
So Dullahan (1st), Ghost, Lizards, enemies in the room where you have to move the box (2nd), Golem (3rd), Slime outside Golem room, and slime in the cloudstone room (Raging Ache).
The slime outside the Golem room poisons me, so I do have to spend time curing that. Sometimes I've killed the slime before the Golem, which if I'm lucky learns me the third skill right there and then the boss goes towards Raging Ache, but sometimes it comes up just short by one or two hits, and then 90% of the Golem chain just goes to waste. Doing the Golem first seems much more reliable and then you get full credit on the slime chain towards Raging Ache.

Riskbreaker Y

Edit history:

Riskbreaker Y: 2014-09-27 08:11:30 pm

Riskbreaker Y: 2014-09-27 07:53:42 pm

2014-09-27 07:52:13 pm

berserker status

My BP route is pretty much the same except I skip the slime before the Golem to grind the bat and slime in the cloudstone area. It sucks getting bad luck by landing a hit initially with the bat or landing a critical though (I keep the sword unsheathed to ensure high risk). Maybe this method reduces your chances of getting poisoned.

For the Duane fight right afterward, it's a good idea to sheathe your weapon to drop your risk once you defeat the Dragon. Target his legs for nice initial damage so that you're not just relying on Raging Ache during chaining. I'm sure you guys have noticed his chain evasion can be really stupid so even using a Vera Root can help (I usually try to get lucky with a couple tries without item use).

I don't like playing with Quicksilvers so I just silence and paralyze them and call it a day after the first Lich. They're too dangerous and I usually don't have Absorb Magic by then (Magic Ward takes too much MPs that you need for teleportation). The added benefit is that the status ailments remain when you go into adjacent rooms and come back besides being quick to inflict.

Sub 3 hrs is reasonable with safe strats, my best is like 2:35 going at an ok pace. I REALLY want to get as close to 2 hrs as possible if I can't get below that hahah but as you guys say it can be frustrating and demoralizing at times.

Btw the Blood Lizard at Bandit's Hollow, the Crimson Blade with Tabar axe after the Kesch Bridge in Town Center East, and some of the Gremlins at the Limestone Quarry equip silver weapons so respond accordingly. They can be run killers just as much as the Quicksilvers.

My BP route is pretty much the same except I skip the slime before the Golem to grind the bat and slime in the cloudstone area.  It sucks getting bad luck by landing a hit initially with the bat or landing a critical though (I keep the sword unsheathed to ensure high risk).  Maybe this method reduces your chances of getting poisoned.

For the Duane fight right afterward, it's a good idea to sheathe your weapon to drop your risk once you defeat the Dragon.  Target his legs for nice initial damage so that you're not just relying on Raging Ache during chaining.  I'm sure you guys have noticed his chain evasion can be really stupid so even using a Vera Root can help (I usually try to get lucky with a couple tries without item use).

I don't like playing with Quicksilvers so I just silence and paralyze them and call it a day after the first Lich.  They're too dangerous and I usually don't have Absorb Magic by then (Magic Ward takes too much MPs that you need for teleportation).  The added benefit is that the status ailments remain when you go into adjacent rooms and come back besides being quick to inflict.

Sub 3 hrs is reasonable with safe strats, my best is like 2:35 going at an ok pace.  I REALLY want to get as close to 2 hrs as possible if I can't get below that hahah but as you guys say it can be frustrating and demoralizing at times.

Btw the Blood Lizard at Bandit's Hollow, the Crimson Blade with Tabar axe after the Kesch Bridge in Town Center East, and some of the Gremlins at the Limestone Quarry equip silver weapons so respond accordingly.  They can be run killers just as much as the Quicksilvers.

Dak_Rey

2014-09-28 04:57:55 am

Quote from Riskbreaker Y:

For the Duane fight right afterward, it's a good idea to sheathe your weapon to drop your risk once you defeat the Dragon. Target his legs for nice initial damage so that you're not just relying on Raging Ache during chaining. I'm sure you guys have noticed his chain evasion can be really stupid so even using a Vera Root can help (I usually try to get lucky with a couple tries without item use).

Practicing the Duane fight yesterday, I found that it's just so much easier to chew a few vera roots and forget chaining him all together and just hit him over and over. If you run up to him first thing in the fight, he still doesn't get a chance to cast. Not sure if it works out faster since eating vera roots is time consuming alone, but it's certainly less frustrating.

http://www.twitch.tv/dak_rey/c/5192431

Another highlight I made was how to avoid Earth Dragon's acid breath opener (if he decides to do it). If he starts the battle flashing red, just stand still then it misses for some reason. If he isn't flashing red then just run straight in.

http://www.twitch.tv/dak_rey/c/5174069

[quote="Riskbreaker Y"]For the Duane fight right afterward, it's a good idea to sheathe your weapon to drop your risk once you defeat the Dragon.  Target his legs for nice initial damage so that you're not just relying on Raging Ache during chaining.  I'm sure you guys have noticed his chain evasion can be really stupid so even using a Vera Root can help (I usually try to get lucky with a couple tries without item use).[/quote]

Practicing the Duane fight yesterday, I found that it's just so much easier to chew a few vera roots and forget chaining him all together and just hit him over and over. If you run up to him first thing in the fight, he still doesn't get a chance to cast. Not sure if it works out faster since eating vera roots is time consuming alone, but it's certainly less frustrating.

http://www.twitch.tv/dak_rey/c/5192431

Another highlight I made was how to avoid Earth Dragon's acid breath opener (if he decides to do it). If he starts the battle flashing red, just stand still then it misses for some reason. If he isn't flashing red then just run straight in.

http://www.twitch.tv/dak_rey/c/5174069

Riskbreaker Y

2014-10-05 05:30:49 pm

berserker status

Just got a 2:07 using Fandango and safe strats. There were some ugly patches, but overall I'm content with this RTA. It'll do as a baseline. Moving on to Magnolia Frau and keep pushing for more. Video will be posted in the next couple of days. Finally. This feels good. Smiley

Riskbreaker Y

Edit history:

Riskbreaker Y: 2014-10-06 11:16:53 am

Riskbreaker Y: 2014-10-06 11:16:39 am

2014-10-06 11:16:19 am

berserker status

Quote from Riskbreaker Y:

Just got a 2:07 using Fandango and safe strats. There were some ugly patches, but overall I'm content with this RTA. It'll do as a baseline. Moving on to Magnolia Frau and keep pushing for more. Video will be posted in the next couple of days. Finally. This feels good. Smiley

Dak_Rey

2014-10-09 06:36:44 pm

Congrats on a good run! I'll be trying my first full run this weekend. It'll probably end up a bit of a trainwreck, but if I can get even sub 4 hours then it'll be a good starting point for me.

Riskbreaker Y

2015-01-21 09:39:06 pm

berserker status

Repost from tasvideos:
So apparently there's a Japanese TAS that clocks in at 1:25.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17294752

It was made in 2012 so I don't know how optimized it is, but the strategies utilized are interesting to say the least. In lieu of Fandango or Magnolia Frau, the runner opts for Seventh Heaven (crossbow found in the Wine Cellar). I knew an Arbalest would be best for ng+ and this selection confirms the notion that the best defense is a good offense. The animation might even be faster, I need to confirm this. The range on the crossbow allows the player to initiate combat every time, thus ensuring that a continuous chain combo prevents any enemy/boss from attacking hence negating the need for leveling up defense abilities. It seems like the TAS utilizes Instill/Phantom Pain combinations in conjunction with Raging Ache. This drastically reduces boss battle times although I am unclear how the mechanic works because it appears to be used consecutively which is something I was unaware about. I don't want to give away anything else...even stat selection differed from my expectations

Repost from tasvideos:
So apparently there's a Japanese TAS that clocks in at 1:25.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17294752

It was made in 2012 so I don't know how optimized it is, but the strategies utilized are interesting to say the least. In lieu of Fandango or Magnolia Frau, the runner opts for Seventh Heaven (crossbow found in the Wine Cellar). I knew an Arbalest would be best for ng+ and this selection confirms the notion that the best defense is a good offense. The animation might even be faster, I need to confirm this. The range on the crossbow allows the player to initiate combat every time, thus ensuring that a continuous chain combo prevents any enemy/boss from attacking hence negating the need for leveling up defense abilities. It seems like the TAS utilizes Instill/Phantom Pain combinations in conjunction with Raging Ache. This drastically reduces boss battle times although I am unclear how the mechanic works because it appears to be used consecutively which is something I was unaware about. I don't want to give away anything else...even stat selection differed from my expectations

Riskbreaker Y

2015-03-11 12:48:07 pm

berserker status

Alright so I've played around with weapon selection and Phantom Pain some. It appears that Magnolia Frau is indeed fastest, followed by Fandango, then Seventh Heaven. I'm not sure why that TAS opts for Seventh Heaven as the added range doesn't compensate for the slower animations although it has higher PP than Fandango (Magnolia Frau has a ridiculous PP value of 190). So for speed and high PP, Magnolia Frau is better at the expense of range. I'm considering picking up the Braveheart gem after the first Dullahan fight to increase my initial hit% in order to more efficiently rack up PP using Instill, but I have to confirm that the Magnolia Frau has a gem slot later tonight. A chain of 15 hits stocks about 40 PP with an initial miss so even starting with an expected damage output of 1-5 hp would be helpful for Phantom Pain usage. Depending on how the first chain combo goes against Guildenstern II, it may be faster switching back to Fandango for another Phantom Pain attack. I definitely want to iron out these strategies as much as I can before attempting more RTAs as saving seconds during chaining adds up significantly over the course of the run. Another thing the TAS does is farm very early to unlock Phantom Pain asap so that is something else to consider even though it intuitively feels like accumulating BP normally seems more efficient especially considering how evading enemies during normal play is totally different than TAS ridiculousness. Hopefully I'll be done messing around with the new strats soon so that I can pour in attempts for that elusive sub 2hr SS goal.

Alright so I've played around with weapon selection and Phantom Pain some.  It appears that Magnolia Frau is indeed fastest, followed by Fandango, then Seventh Heaven.  I'm not sure why that TAS opts for Seventh Heaven as the added range doesn't compensate for the slower animations although it has higher PP than Fandango (Magnolia Frau has a ridiculous PP value of 190).  So for speed and high PP, Magnolia Frau is better at the expense of range.  I'm considering picking up the Braveheart gem after the first Dullahan fight to increase my initial hit% in order to more efficiently rack up PP using Instill, but I have to confirm that the Magnolia Frau has a gem slot later tonight.  A chain of 15 hits stocks about 40 PP with an initial miss so even starting with an expected damage output of 1-5 hp would be helpful for Phantom Pain usage.  Depending on how the first chain combo goes against Guildenstern II, it may be faster switching back to Fandango for another Phantom Pain attack.  I definitely want to iron out these strategies as much as I can before attempting more RTAs as saving seconds during chaining adds up significantly over the course of the run.  Another thing the TAS does is farm very early to unlock Phantom Pain asap so that is something else to consider even though it intuitively feels like accumulating BP normally seems more efficient especially considering how evading enemies during normal play is totally different than TAS ridiculousness.  Hopefully I'll be done messing around with the new strats soon so that I can pour in attempts for that elusive sub 2hr SS goal.

gredgie

Edit history:

gredgie: 2015-03-16 09:10:55 am

2015-03-16 09:09:36 am

And I'd do it again...

So, my previous attempt to get hyped enough to run this game resulted in me doing some casual play whilst just practicing my chaining skills, then work got busier and it got left on the back burner. But my eternal desire to run this game burns on so I'm going to look into getting a powered splitter and such so I can stream practice attempts and whatnot, since there's seemingly no active VS presense on Twitch. Which will hopefully motivate me into keeping up with it all.

One thing I should probably clarify before starting though, is what I should optimally be playing on, being in the PAL region. I have the PAL PS1 game disc, a PAL PS1, a slim PAL PS2 or a non-slim PAL PS3 (with VS on the hard-drive).
I don't overly mind being slightly slower than NTSC, but I figure out of my options the PS3 with the digital version of VS would be the best route?

EDIT: Theory being it's likely quicker to read the NTSC version from a hard-drive than the PS2's fast disc speed, I could be wrong of course.

zero shift

2015-03-17 06:03:11 pm

Don't know if you guys have discussed this already as I haven't read every post, but regarding that seemingly impossible time. That's the Japanese version right?

Rather than being impossible, could it be that the JP version has differences that allow such a time? There's a HUGE list of games where the JP version is easier, such as enemy layout/HP/number, weapons being stronger, having more stats, more item drops, the list goes on and on.

I own both version of quite a few games and the differences can make INSANE differences in a run. Has anyone here played the JP version and compared it to the English releases?

gredgie

2015-08-02 03:34:40 pm

And I'd do it again...

Trying to figure out a way to memorise the route through Snowfly Forest is an experience, as is actually navigating through it.

Looking at RiskbreakerY's run, he either gets great luck or I'm just slightly too slow at the first cross junction, since I find the first Basilisk will block me from passing enough to get off either a physical attack or Acid Breath. The second similarly blocks really well but for the most part you can hurdle over it a lot easier.

Aside from that, I only had one attempt where I didn't have the Earth Dragon Acid Breath within a single jump, which almost demands Terra Ward being equipped although yet again in RiskbreakerY's run he gets in attack range quick enough to deny it.

Basically, I'm dreading actually running that segment :P.

Riskbreaker Y

Edit history:

Riskbreaker Y: 2015-08-07 04:11:31 pm

2015-08-07 04:09:32 pm

berserker status

Quote from gredgie:

Trying to figure out a way to memorise the route through Snowfly Forest is an experience, as is actually navigating through it.

Looking at RiskbreakerY's run, he either gets great luck or I'm just slightly too slow at the first cross junction, since I find the first Basilisk will block me from passing enough to get off either a physical attack or Acid Breath. The second similarly blocks really well but for the most part you can hurdle over it a lot easier.

Aside from that, I only had one attempt where I didn't have the Earth Dragon Acid Breath within a single jump, which almost demands Terra Ward being equipped although yet again in RiskbreakerY's run he gets in attack range quick enough to deny it.

Basically, I'm dreading actually running that segment :P.

Memorizing the route will come naturally with play, the box puzzles take practice too.

The Snowfly Forest can be daunting yea. It's not that obvious but you can manipulate the Basilisks' movements indirectly, for instance, in the first screen with two basilisks you'll notice that I jump in place because a tree blocks my path. This is done intentionally to lure the basilisk over the low rise and you can get by consistently with no problems as it is going after the place you are jumping from not where you're jumping too. Note that enemies can't attack when you or they are in a jumping animation. The first basilisk's "!" is activated which prevents the second one from even posing a threat. In the second screen, there's only one basilisk at the top of the screen so you legitimately have to avoid it like normal. In the third screen, you can do the same strategy of baiting the basilisk over the mound. The Earth Dragon there's nothing really you can do except mash on the jump as quickly as possible and read its animations accordingly. Is it flashing red already? Keep jumping. Is it further away than normal or backing up? Keep jumping. Is it stepping toward you? You can get away with a single jump then rush under its head. You can 'inch' your way toward enemies and bosses by taking a half-step, single step, or even two before leaping again. Counting these steps in certain places helps for platforming too. The other thing about the Snowfly Forest is that without insane luck there's no way you can reach the first Fire Elemental in time before he launches an attack if you're equipped with the Magnolia Frau. You should practice these sections in segments to achieve some sort of consistency along with the Impact Guards from different angles nothing is more frustrating than to lose a run to an error that quickly snowballs. That's really what it comes down to, mitigating that chaotic chain of events that stems from an error resulting in multiple enemy attacks which is a loss of time at least, or worse death.

The only relief that comes with getting through the Snowfly Forest is the Magic Ward spell you get from Grissom Tongue

You should really be used to that Game Over screen by now, you're going to die a lot get shitty luck and get dicked in the Cathedral somewhere. I'd say don't be afraid to kill extra enemies if you have to or use healing items/spells if you're not used to certain timings. The only luck dependent thing in Snowfly Forest I'd say is whether or not the Dark Crusader opens up with a Drain Heart attack which can easily kill you if you're not ready (besides Faerie Wing drops).

[quote="gredgie"]Trying to figure out a way to memorise the route through Snowfly Forest is an experience, as is actually navigating through it.

Looking at RiskbreakerY's run, he either gets great luck or I'm just slightly too slow at the first cross junction, since I find the first Basilisk will block me from passing enough to get off either a physical attack or Acid Breath. The second similarly blocks really well but for the most part you can hurdle over it a lot easier.

Aside from that, I only had one attempt where I didn't have the Earth Dragon Acid Breath within a single jump, which almost demands Terra Ward being equipped although yet again in RiskbreakerY's run he gets in attack range quick enough to deny it.

Basically, I'm dreading actually running that segment :P.[/quote]

Memorizing the route will come naturally with play, the box puzzles take practice too.

The Snowfly Forest can be daunting yea.  It's not that obvious but you can manipulate the Basilisks' movements indirectly, for instance, in the first screen with two basilisks you'll notice that I jump in place because a tree blocks my path.  This is done intentionally to lure the basilisk over the low rise and you can get by consistently with no problems as it is going after the place you are jumping from not where you're jumping too.  Note that enemies can't attack when you or they are in a jumping animation.  The first basilisk's "!" is activated which prevents the second one from even posing a threat.  In the second screen, there's only one basilisk at the top of the screen so you legitimately have to avoid it like normal.  In the third screen, you can do the same strategy of baiting the basilisk over the mound.  The Earth Dragon there's nothing really you can do except mash on the jump as quickly as possible and read its animations accordingly.  Is it flashing red already?  Keep jumping.  Is it further away than normal or backing up?  Keep jumping.  Is it stepping toward you?  You can get away with a single jump then rush under its head.  You can 'inch' your way toward enemies and bosses by taking a half-step, single step, or even two before leaping again.  Counting these steps in certain places helps for platforming too.  The other thing about the Snowfly Forest is that without insane luck there's no way you can reach the first Fire Elemental in time before he launches an attack if you're equipped with the Magnolia Frau.  You should practice these sections in segments to achieve some sort of consistency along with the Impact Guards from different angles nothing is more frustrating than to lose a run to an error that quickly snowballs.  That's really what it comes down to, mitigating that chaotic chain of events that stems from an error resulting in multiple enemy attacks which is a loss of time at least, or worse death.

The only relief that comes with getting through the Snowfly Forest is the Magic Ward spell you get from Grissom :P

You should really be used to that Game Over screen by now, you're going to die a lot get shitty luck and get dicked in the Cathedral somewhere.  I'd say don't be afraid to kill extra enemies if you have to or use healing items/spells if you're not used to certain timings.  The only luck dependent thing in Snowfly Forest I'd say is whether or not the Dark Crusader opens up with a Drain Heart attack which can easily kill you if you're not ready (besides Faerie Wing drops).

Dak_Rey

Edit history:

Dak_Rey: 2015-08-23 12:56:57 pm

2015-08-23 05:06:20 am

I'm not understanding the whole Raging Ache, Instill, Phantom Pain combination, is anyone able to explain this to me?
For example, he will have 300 max HP and 30 current HP. His initial attack deals 10 damage and then he unleashes a chain of 50+ damage hits following that.

Now in my mind, if he first hits for 10 then he could follow up with a 28 damage Raging Ache, a 2 damage Instill or an attack for however much PP his weapon has using Phantom Pain. After using Phantom Pain, the weapon's PP will be 0 again and building it back up should take a ton of hits throughout the chain.

Yet he hits 50+ 3 or 4 times in a row. What am I missing here?

Edit: thinking about it, I don't even think he has Phantom Pain (I can't read the Japanese text to see exactly what he has set) at that point so I really have no idea what is going on.

Riskbreaker Y

2015-08-24 11:16:35 pm

berserker status

That's what prompted me to post the video in the first place, the strategies seemed to make sense on the surface but it doesn't add up. I said that the chain ability the tas uses is Phantom Pain, because nothing else really comes close to having that effect. Still I scratched my head at that and although there's something to that strategy to pursue, what is shown in that video is something I haven't seen before or haven't done even after testing. Still, I want to review it again and play around with the chain abilities I can't help but feel it's something obvious. The phantom points bar takes a couple good full chains to fill up so that's the part that's puzzling...even a portion. There's only so many chain abilities and yet it's weird. I'd like to give more attempts at this but the thought of using suboptimal strats seems counterproductive (even though my last run used pretty safe tactics and erred on falling back on Defense Abilities if necessary as opposed to pouring your BPs to Chain Abilities like that video).

That's what prompted me to post the video in the first place, the strategies seemed to make sense on the surface but it doesn't add up.  I said that the chain ability the tas uses is Phantom Pain, because nothing else really comes close to having that effect.  Still I scratched my head at that and although there's something to that strategy to pursue, what is shown in that video is something I haven't seen before or haven't done even after testing.  Still, I want to review it again and play around with the chain abilities I can't help but feel it's something obvious.  The phantom points bar takes a couple good full chains to fill up so that's the part that's puzzling...even a portion.  There's only so many chain abilities and yet it's weird.  I'd like to give more attempts at this but the thought of using suboptimal strats seems counterproductive (even though my last run used pretty safe tactics and erred on falling back on Defense Abilities if necessary as opposed to pouring your BPs to Chain Abilities like that video).