So neutral gets the pan now
I'm sorry what just happened there?
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Anime is not real.
For those of you who are good at the Asriel fight:
If it hasn't occurred to anyone yet (it just occurred to me today) it's faster to 'spare' Asriel's first form than it is to 'hope.'
You can always "Dream" before the true battle starts (before the psychadelic background) so there actually isn't much risk involved as long as you heal with LastDream before the Hyper Goner cycle.
Tough to time but I'd imagine it can save you between 3-8 seconds total between all the cycles if you can dodge well enough.
If it hasn't occurred to anyone yet (it just occurred to me today) it's faster to 'spare' Asriel's first form than it is to 'hope.'
You can always "Dream" before the true battle starts (before the psychadelic background) so there actually isn't much risk involved as long as you heal with LastDream before the Hyper Goner cycle.
Tough to time but I'd imagine it can save you between 3-8 seconds total between all the cycles if you can dodge well enough.
Anime is not real.
Quote from Anty-Lemon:
So neutral gets the pan now
Sorry for the double post. But why wasn't this explained here literally at all? :/
It's a trick in the Neutral% run (ONLY) allowing you to item-manip the burnt pan into your inventory.
1. Perform the lab skip technique with the dog food.
2. DON'T WALK FORWARD. Mash through Metta's text until Frisk (Chara?? lol) takes the step forward towards Metta on his own (like he always does in the geno run).
3. After you walk forward, you'll be able to move. However, you won't actually see yourself move. Move to the left until the screen scrolls a bit, then do your best to talk to the fridge. (This might take some practice to get right)
4. You'll get the text asking if you want to take the Instant Noodles overlapping Mettaton's remaining text. You WILL be able to choose, and you want to choose "LEAVE IT" the first time. (If you take them by accident, you won't be able to get the pan)
5. Mash through the remaining text quickly, and you should eventually see the text "You got the Burnt Pan". And it will be in your inventory.
Edit history:
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-11 01:52:49 pm
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-11 01:51:29 pm
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-11 01:50:57 pm
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-11 01:50:43 pm
Quote from TGH:
Sorry for the double post. But why wasn't this explained here literally at all? :/.
It was a quick upload to show smellyfeet what I was talking about. I started talking about it on discord immediately after posting it, and forgot about elaborating here
Quote from TGH:
DON'T WALK FORWARD.
Actually, after the cutscene is over, you teleport to the position of the sprite, as long as your actual position is on-screen. So it's fastest to go a few tiles forward, wait to auto-step, then go back to the fridge, saving about a second. If you're late though, Mettaton starts talking again before you can interact with the fridge, which afaik makes the glitch impossible, or at least much slower
There's also an optional step 6, which is to bring up the menu and equip the pan before the cutscene ends, saving another second. However you have to be quick with it, since when the camera locks back into place movement is enabled again, and the menu stops working
All things considered, early pan saves 9-12 seconds over getting the pan normally, and 5-8 seconds over getting the gun and hat. Having the gun and hat almost always saves a turn on Asgore over pan, so early pan seems to be the fastest overall if you can do the glitch very quickly (an Asgore turn is 6-7 seconds). However, the pan is no easier than the gun for gold timing (with the exception of 1 extra frame on the last line), since the timing is calculated from the speed of the line. So basically it comes down to personal preference. Choose whichever weapon you're better at, or if you're equally good at both, personally I'd recommend the gun for consistency
Edit history:
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-15 12:03:38 pm
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-14 05:56:07 pm
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-14 05:55:40 pm
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-14 05:55:10 pm
Anty-Lemon: 2015-12-14 05:54:20 pm
In TPE, getting the pie always at least breaks even overall, and usually saves time
The better you do on Asgore, the more likely it is to break even. There's a slim chance starting from 21 turns, reaching 50% at 17 turns, then 100% at 12 turns
Either way, always get the Pie, and use it on Asgore. That's exactly what TPE does already, but it's interesting to know it's surprisingly close.
In neutral, on the other hand, the pie can waste time, but if your gun/pan isn't amazing, it has a chance to save ~1 second. With pan, you have a 1/2 chance to save time at 9 turns, 2/3 at 11 turns, 3/4 at 13, and at 14+ you should just get the pie. With gun, it's more like 1/2 at 9, 2/3 at 12, 3/4 at 14, 15+
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/jieubxuprk
EDIT: Oh wait, for neutral I forgot to account for the time it takes to actually get the pie, lol. Considering that, it only saves time if you're bad enough at the pan/gun that the dagger would be better. So yeah, never get the pie in neutral
The better you do on Asgore, the more likely it is to break even. There's a slim chance starting from 21 turns, reaching 50% at 17 turns, then 100% at 12 turns
Either way, always get the Pie, and use it on Asgore. That's exactly what TPE does already, but it's interesting to know it's surprisingly close.
In neutral, on the other hand, the pie can waste time, but if your gun/pan isn't amazing, it has a chance to save ~1 second. With pan, you have a 1/2 chance to save time at 9 turns, 2/3 at 11 turns, 3/4 at 13, and at 14+ you should just get the pie. With gun, it's more like 1/2 at 9, 2/3 at 12, 3/4 at 14, 15+
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/jieubxuprk
EDIT: Oh wait, for neutral I forgot to account for the time it takes to actually get the pie, lol. Considering that, it only saves time if you're bad enough at the pan/gun that the dagger would be better. So yeah, never get the pie in neutral
On a neutral Toriel kill (hard mode, maybe Lesser Dog and college too) it's actually safer not to sucker punch. After 1 full turn at <3 HP Toriel's defense goes down by 15, nearly tripling your damage. So take as much damage as possible on the first turn, go to 2 HP on the second turn, then her defense drops after the third turn. Sucker punching instead needs 5/6 hands to be worth it, which is a 33.5% chance
While I'm at it, TPE monster candy strats need 2 extra hands to save time, which is a 5.7% chance
While I'm at it, TPE monster candy strats need 2 extra hands to save time, which is a 5.7% chance
RNG Gods Guide Me
Made vid tuTORIEL guide on TPE
youtube playlist (each area broken down into 15 min sections): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqsclrUh0QDfI8Ki6o2KIlHQjQErP_m98
Full 2 hour vid: http://www.twitch.tv/omgwthdude/v/30633494
youtube playlist (each area broken down into 15 min sections): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqsclrUh0QDfI8Ki6o2KIlHQjQErP_m98
Full 2 hour vid: http://www.twitch.tv/omgwthdude/v/30633494
Anime is not real.
Quote from Anty-Lemon:
In TPE, getting the pie always at least breaks even overall, and usually saves time
The better you do on Asgore, the more likely it is to break even. There's a slim chance starting from 21 turns, reaching 50% at 17 turns, then 100% at 12 turns
Either way, always get the Pie, and use it on Asgore. That's exactly what TPE does already, but it's interesting to know it's surprisingly close.
In neutral, on the other hand, the pie can waste time, but if your gun/pan isn't amazing, it has a chance to save ~1 second. With pan, you have a 1/2 chance to save time at 9 turns, 2/3 at 11 turns, 3/4 at 13, and at 14+ you should just get the pie. With gun, it's more like 1/2 at 9, 2/3 at 12, 3/4 at 14, 15+
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/jieubxuprk
EDIT: Oh wait, for neutral I forgot to account for the time it takes to actually get the pie, lol. Considering that, it only saves time if you're bad enough at the pan/gun that the dagger would be better. So yeah, never get the pie in neutral
The better you do on Asgore, the more likely it is to break even. There's a slim chance starting from 21 turns, reaching 50% at 17 turns, then 100% at 12 turns
Either way, always get the Pie, and use it on Asgore. That's exactly what TPE does already, but it's interesting to know it's surprisingly close.
In neutral, on the other hand, the pie can waste time, but if your gun/pan isn't amazing, it has a chance to save ~1 second. With pan, you have a 1/2 chance to save time at 9 turns, 2/3 at 11 turns, 3/4 at 13, and at 14+ you should just get the pie. With gun, it's more like 1/2 at 9, 2/3 at 12, 3/4 at 14, 15+
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/jieubxuprk
EDIT: Oh wait, for neutral I forgot to account for the time it takes to actually get the pie, lol. Considering that, it only saves time if you're bad enough at the pan/gun that the dagger would be better. So yeah, never get the pie in neutral
Dont forget the pie also saves you a cycle in the Lost Soul section of Asriel (Toriel/Asgore). Probably a few seconds there, plus if eating pie during Asgore finishes the fight in the same amount of turns, the pie would save time definitely since it's just a faster turn. Probably 5-7 seconds in the Lost Soul fight (don't quote me, I've never timed those cycles) plus the 3 or so seconds during the Asgore fight saved immediately, vs. the 5 seconds it takes to get the pie absolutely justifies getting it in every TPE run unless you take like 5 seconds to menu lol
Edit history:
Omgwthdude: 2016-01-01 07:29:15 pm
Omgwthdude: 2016-01-01 07:23:24 pm
Omgwthdude: 2016-01-01 07:23:12 pm
RNG Gods Guide Me
No, that wouldn't be allowed as that is modding , giving pc users an advantage plus it wouldn't be mashing, it would be "who can scroll the fastest" and this would allow controllers to use turbo mode, in order to achieve "fairness" which is not allowed in any speedrun ever
Quote from drMalcom:
That doesn't sound right. I remember making a thread (on my old account) about free scrolling and the conclusion was that is is allowed. I can only assume that normal non-free scrolling is allowed too.
Rebinding to scroll wheel is banned in SC2 and CS
Besides, you need both z and x to mash. You'd have to bind both keys to one input, which is a macro, or bind one to scroll up and one to scroll down, which is arguably slower
Gotta go forward!
Chiming in here because this is a valid question.
This is probably going to be a majority no from the community, BUT there are things to take into account (off the top of my head):
1) Can we tell if people are going to rebind anyways? Would people use AHK (for example) to make mashing utterly trivial?
2) What's considered to be modding the game? If we try to consider hard definitions, rebinding keys in not necessarily screwing with the game code - it's just mapping inputs on our peripherals to the buttons that we need to hit. And no, game designer intention is not a valid excuse for banning keybinds - it's ultimately up to the community.
3) Is mashing a skill-based aspect of the run? Obviously if people don't think it's that huge of a deal we can allow rebinds, but the sheer number of text boxes in the game makes this hard to answer, since "frame-perfect mashing" is near-impossible for the normal human being.
So yeah, it sucks but we're going to have to go with "it must be determined by community opinion" as the response for now. If you really want to push for this, let tux/wolf/me/etc. know and we can organize a community discussion/poll/decision.
This is probably going to be a majority no from the community, BUT there are things to take into account (off the top of my head):
1) Can we tell if people are going to rebind anyways? Would people use AHK (for example) to make mashing utterly trivial?
2) What's considered to be modding the game? If we try to consider hard definitions, rebinding keys in not necessarily screwing with the game code - it's just mapping inputs on our peripherals to the buttons that we need to hit. And no, game designer intention is not a valid excuse for banning keybinds - it's ultimately up to the community.
3) Is mashing a skill-based aspect of the run? Obviously if people don't think it's that huge of a deal we can allow rebinds, but the sheer number of text boxes in the game makes this hard to answer, since "frame-perfect mashing" is near-impossible for the normal human being.
So yeah, it sucks but we're going to have to go with "it must be determined by community opinion" as the response for now. If you really want to push for this, let tux/wolf/me/etc. know and we can organize a community discussion/poll/decision.
RNG Gods Guide Me
Talked to tgh and wolfie, they both think that mashing is a skill based part of the game. TGH more then wolfie though, wolfie said if he HAD to choose it'd be no. Im not really that much of friends with tux, so guess you can ask him. Anyways this being said remapping is not a mod, as that is just making it more comfortable for you. No we can not tell if you rebind keys or use AHK, but something is fishy if you mash faster then the top 10 without ever climbing. I think it was said best in one of tgh or wolfie's chat(i forget who said it) When you remap keys you should have to same amount of keys that you had in the first place. Binding z button to "one input per unit of scroll" would be like turbo mode. Or rebinding 2 keys(like z and x) to a singular key would be relatively faster(for mashing atleast, your menuing would be....questionable). At this point of Undertale the game has been optimized. Meaning if you can get all skips and know how to fight all bosses, its literally down to wire of mashing(assuming you get relatively even decent rng for whatever category).
TLDR: Yes, up to community, but makes game alot easier
TLDR: Yes, up to community, but makes game alot easier
Anime is not real.
Mashing is absolutely skill- and timing-based. That's a fact. If you don't think so, look at how fast some people mash compared to others. And it DOES account for a massive amount of time over the course of a run.
For this reason and this reason alone I don't think something like this should ever be allowed. But Celestics is right when he says that verifiers might have trouble being able to tell if people rebind regardless. That being said it'd be tough to put a concrete rule like this in place
EDIT: One option would be to require a Nohboard window capture along with the video of the run. IT shouldn't be too hard for people using OBS or xSplit and it's a free and easy program to obtain. Thoughts on that?
For this reason and this reason alone I don't think something like this should ever be allowed. But Celestics is right when he says that verifiers might have trouble being able to tell if people rebind regardless. That being said it'd be tough to put a concrete rule like this in place
EDIT: One option would be to require a Nohboard window capture along with the video of the run. IT shouldn't be too hard for people using OBS or xSplit and it's a free and easy program to obtain. Thoughts on that?
No one can mash flawlessly. If a run has flawless mashing, it should be really easy to tell. And going through the effort to occasionally mash badly and run your AHK script the rest of the time is rather ridiculous.
Don't go putting additional requirements on speedrunning. Just explicitly state that scripts and scroll-wheel are not allowed, and trust runners to not be idiots about it.
Don't go putting additional requirements on speedrunning. Just explicitly state that scripts and scroll-wheel are not allowed, and trust runners to not be idiots about it.
I'm not going to say that binding the scroll to a key should or shouldn't be banned, either way is fine really. I'm going to be honest, I'm not even very familiar with this game. I only replied because I happen to remember a thread about this topic.
But it feels like not allowing it would only artificially increase the difficulty of the run. If I really want to do that, I could play with my left hand (which would also be skill based). I'm not sure it would be fair to ban/allow the scroll-bind on a per-game basis because the decision would feel arbitrary. Sometimes the rebind is even possible from the in-game settings (eg: DeusEx, Bl2).
Anyways, just my 2c. Looking forward to seeing all these great runs !
But it feels like not allowing it would only artificially increase the difficulty of the run. If I really want to do that, I could play with my left hand (which would also be skill based). I'm not sure it would be fair to ban/allow the scroll-bind on a per-game basis because the decision would feel arbitrary. Sometimes the rebind is even possible from the in-game settings (eg: DeusEx, Bl2).
Anyways, just my 2c. Looking forward to seeing all these great runs !
1) Yes. Perfect mashing requires 30 inputs per second. That is certainly not easy to get at peak times, much less consistently during a run. Any consistent frame perfect mashing should, at the very least, be up for questioning. Also, any huge inconsistencies should be noted, like going from average mashing during things like Ruins to frame perfect mashing Undyne/Alphys date.
2) Modding the game would be modifying how the game is played. Things like key rebinds would count under this, but things like music modification wouldn't.
3)Yes, mashing is skill based. For fastest mashing, you'd require a quick pattern of Shift > Enter > X > Z or any combination like that, where a Z/Enter comes after X/Shift.
Plus, modifying the key rebinds is quite difficult. There is no in game option nor is there an ini file to edit.
2) Modding the game would be modifying how the game is played. Things like key rebinds would count under this, but things like music modification wouldn't.
3)Yes, mashing is skill based. For fastest mashing, you'd require a quick pattern of Shift > Enter > X > Z or any combination like that, where a Z/Enter comes after X/Shift.
Plus, modifying the key rebinds is quite difficult. There is no in game option nor is there an ini file to edit.
Anime is not real.
[quote="drMalcom"]I'm not going to say that binding the scroll to a key should or shouldn't be banned, either way is fine really. I'm going to be honest, I'm not even very familiar with this game. I only replied because I happen to remember a thread about this topic.
But it feels like not allowing it would only artificially increase the difficulty of the run. If I really want to do that, I could play with my left hand (which would also be skill based). I'm not sure it would be fair to ban/allow the scroll-bind on a per-game basis because the decision would feel arbitrary. Sometimes the rebind is even possible from the in-game settings (eg: DeusEx, Bl2).
Anyways, just my 2c. Looking forward to seeing all these great runs !
In a game where 95% of the text isn't instantly skippable like in Undertale, I can see something like that being allowed. But mashing away text is a very important, skill-based part of the run and allowing modifications of this sort would be eliminating something pretty huge. Allowing scroll wheel/binding/etc. would GREATLY decrease the difficulty of this run.
But it feels like not allowing it would only artificially increase the difficulty of the run. If I really want to do that, I could play with my left hand (which would also be skill based). I'm not sure it would be fair to ban/allow the scroll-bind on a per-game basis because the decision would feel arbitrary. Sometimes the rebind is even possible from the in-game settings (eg: DeusEx, Bl2).
Anyways, just my 2c. Looking forward to seeing all these great runs !
In a game where 95% of the text isn't instantly skippable like in Undertale, I can see something like that being allowed. But mashing away text is a very important, skill-based part of the run and allowing modifications of this sort would be eliminating something pretty huge. Allowing scroll wheel/binding/etc. would GREATLY decrease the difficulty of this run.