Undertale

Edit history:

redheron: 2015-09-25 03:05:47 pm

2015-09-25 03:01:51 pm

You can use the stick to skip any dog fight (including the true lab one apparently) but you have to equip a weapon to get it (its in your weapon slot) I think the best one is the toy dagger in the ruins

You can weaken asgores attack and defense by eating the butterscotch cinnamon pie from the beginning

also is the dialogue for completing the colored tile puzzle faster than just standing there and waiting for the timer to run out?

SharpieShark

2015-09-25 06:54:15 pm

Quote from redheron:

You can use the stick to skip any dog fight (including the true lab one apparently) but you have to equip a weapon to get it (its in your weapon slot) I think the best one is the toy dagger in the ruins

You can weaken asgores attack and defense by eating the butterscotch cinnamon pie from the beginning

also is the dialogue for completing the colored tile puzzle faster than just standing there and waiting for the timer to run out?

1) The best weapon to obtain the fastest would be the glove. You get it the first time you find a box, which is at the very beginning of Snowdin.
2) I'm not sure the pie does enough to weaken Asgore. From what I've seen from WR runs, it's not used.
3) It's quicker to complete the colored tile puzzle. There's dialogue at the end of both situations, and waiting for the fire walls to close in take longer than the dialogue of the completion text alone. It's about a 10 second time save.

FerreTrip

2015-09-25 07:57:19 pm

Nuzlocker and wannabe speedrunner

...Okay, every time I want to speedrun something, someone else does it and I get too scared to ;w; But great to see some people are doing their best to save the ~~animals~~ monsters as fast as possible! They've been waiting down there MORE than long enough!

brynz0rz

2015-09-26 05:37:11 am

I'm not really a fan of the current timing on pacifist true end. I think it should end when you go through the final door since that's when you lose control of your character, text box ends seem really silly to me plus it's hard to truly hit a split when you're mashing z and x where as you're just holding up when you go through the door. Thoughts?

theseawolf1

2015-09-26 10:03:46 am

SGL Scrublord

I assumed the end of time would be after the Special Credits, when does the Earthbound run call it quits on time since that has a similarly texty endgame?

SharpieShark

2015-09-26 11:47:09 am

@brynz0rz I thought for most speedruns, the time ends when you no longer have to input anything to reach the credits.

brynz0rz

2015-09-26 01:06:14 pm

Japan does it after credits I think for RPGs. As for Earthbound time ends when you do the final prayer vs Giygas since he effectively dies and it's just text after that, which is why I suggested when you walk through the door since it's the last movement. The stuff after is just text with choices that don't affect the ending really.

Celestics

Edit history:

Celestics: 2015-09-26 01:51:20 pm

2015-09-26 01:50:44 pm

Gotta go forward!

We're timing off SDA's rules for all categories - that is, time is after the last meaningful input before you lose full control of the game (EDIT: "... at game over", which we define as credits).

Genocide - Choice on fallen child, since the text after is automatic.
Neutral - Door, since credits afterwards.
Pacifist - Toriel text, as everything afterwards is automatic (and the credits dodge is an autoscroller, so there's no "meaningful control" over it.

brynz0rz

2015-09-26 02:59:35 pm

I guess if that's SDA timing, but it still feels really awkward to me, not a big deal either way.

angelar

2015-09-26 03:55:20 pm

Might seem kinda nitpicky, but I'd argue it's more relevant and not less for Undertale since you can't just mash cancel to skip through text (have to hit shift or x to skip the text and then z or enter to bring up the next text.)

TheNamelessOne

Edit history:

TheNamelessOne: 2015-09-27 08:28:10 pm

TheNamelessOne: 2015-09-27 08:27:16 pm

2015-09-27 08:26:11 pm

the smallest voice

Ended up doing an All Yellow Monster Credits% run. Pretty happy with it despite it having a lot of safety (I got burned on this run once before) and minor timeloses because it's actually like... 40 minutes shorter than my initial (and invalid due to a lack of 0-reset status) true pacifist run despite being a longer category. I'm pretty sure I never died either. Anyways, I'm sure someone will beat my time immediately because they're better at dodging and puzzles and mashing, but I saw that the category was empty so I decided to be the first anyways. Thankfully, knew how to make my file a 0-reset for this one.

Tuxwizzle

Edit history:

Tuxwizzle: 2015-09-28 12:25:19 pm

2015-09-28 10:06:59 am

Quote from TheNamelessOne:

Ended up doing an All Yellow Monster Credits% run. Pretty happy with it despite it having a lot of safety (I got burned on this run once before) and minor timeloses because it's actually like... 40 minutes shorter than my initial (and invalid due to a lack of 0-reset status) true pacifist run despite being a longer category. I'm pretty sure I never died either. Anyways, I'm sure someone will beat my time immediately because they're better at dodging and puzzles and mashing, but I saw that the category was empty so I decided to be the first anyways. Thankfully, knew how to make my file a 0-reset for this one.

actually props to you. last night i tried to just do it to beat the record and my chat kept telling me that i fucked up the criteria for yellow names. Pretty rough category

http://pastebin.com/viNiaK2y - Compiled every? mob required in one pastebin utilizing Nameless one's run as a rough draft for the requirements.

TheNamelessOne

Edit history:

TheNamelessOne: 2015-09-28 02:14:47 pm

TheNamelessOne: 2015-09-28 02:12:09 pm

2015-09-28 02:10:33 pm

the smallest voice

Mad Dummy is an odd one because the yellow credits text would mostly imply that seeing the Mad Dummy at Undyne's house would do it, but I don't think you can get yellow text outside of battles, so it might be talking in battle even though that doesn't seem to do anything? I noticed the clam npc appears in the screen before the ghost's house/after the dummy fight, and might only show up there if you Yellow Text the Mad Dummy? They didn't show up in my true pacifist run at all. Could be a good way of confirming if you got them mid-run, like the snow sculptures for the lesser dog.

I believe it would be both orbs for Madjack because then you get a text about that enemy having been neutralized.

By the way, Jerry doesn't need to be Yellow Texted because they don't appear in the credits and don't have yellow text, so that one can be ignored.

Also, you might need to do the full singing quest, until Shyren leaves on her own, to get the 2 sing Knight Knight spare.

Naglfar

2015-09-28 04:14:10 pm

console whimsun, it's one cycle and you get yellow text
talk -> spare on madjick is faster

I've been working on a pastebin too so hopefully I'll have the requirements locked down enough to post something soon

jsbluethree

2015-09-29 04:41:42 pm

I found a glitch in hotland with the conveyor belt puzzle:
http://www.twitch.tv/jsbluethree/v/18392379

It's faster if you can pull it off, but......

Celestics

2015-09-29 04:49:12 pm

Gotta go forward!

^That was amazing.

Also, there's a new strat with Undyne in TPE. Take single hits on the first ever attack she does on you, and you can 5-turn the first phase of the fight although it will require using the Bandage. Moreover, if you don't use any new armor, you will end up with 10 HP, enough only to take 1 hit from an arrow.

SharpieShark

2015-09-29 05:01:21 pm

Quote from Celestics:

^That was amazing.

Also, there's a new strat with Undyne in TPE. Take single hits on the first ever attack she does on you, and you can 5-turn the first phase of the fight although it will require using the Bandage. Moreover, if you don't use any new armor, you will end up with 10 HP, enough only to take 1 hit from an arrow.

I knew about this, and I timed it. From what I tested it's slower than just proceeding as normal.

Celestics

2015-09-29 05:20:04 pm

Gotta go forward!

Sounds good. Any updates on whether extending a phase (e.g. phases 1/2) will prevent Undyne from making you Green when she catches back up to you again on phase 2/3? I remember doing that on a casual playthrough but I think it might be slower.

Naglfar

2015-09-29 07:05:16 pm

as far as I recall that does work. I'll test it next time I'm there unless someone else gets to it first.

Wumple

Edit history:

Wumple: 2015-10-01 02:59:26 am

2015-10-01 01:45:00 am

Quote from Celestics:

Quote from jsbluethree:

~snip~

Also @Tux: I'd recommend having the categories be Any% Bad End, Any% Neutral End, Any% True End, and 100% All Bosses

It's just nitpicking at this point, but why not just Genocide/Any%/True Pacifist Ending? The distinction between Bad and Neutral is kinda blurry. What makes All Bosses different from Genocide btw? Is it because of "So Sorry"?
I suggest also adding in All Yellow Enemy Credits. This forces a True Best run that does more than just "not killing anyone" because now you can't simply skip fights with items.

Major Concern: I propose we require 0 reset files for each run - i.e. complete wipe with a deletion of APPDATA folders. This prevents any previous runs from screwing with the events and dialogue of future ones, and it sets the baseline for True Pacifist runs.

I'm just a casual (potential speedrunner; thinking about starting) who's fond of this game, but this makes the most sense out of what I've seen in this thread. Four categories: Any% (Neutral), Genocide, Pacifist, and 100% Pacifist (all yellow cast in credits).

Starting all runs from 0-save makes sense too; a lot of dialogue changes based on previous runs, and some things get skipped entirely. Doubly important for pacifist since it requires you to fight Asgore and all before going back for True Lab. I can understand New Game+ for games that skip cutscenes, tutorials, or unlocks, but this would just flat-out skip playable content.

Thankfully, looks like the above is what folks are doing for the most part.

One concern for 100%, though, is that I think some non-combat cast members don't show up in the credits at all if you never interact with them, so I've yet to see a fully complete list of them. For example, I thought I remember seeing the Nice Cream salesman in the credits on my first run (and being unsure how to get his yellow text; I think I bought from him once and he had white text about being semi-successful) but videos I see don't have him (because it's not time-efficient to use him). Once I finish my current casual run, I'm going to keep an eye for him in the credits to confirm. I'm already post-Asgore, will finish either tonight or in the afternoon. Possible that I might just be crazy and the videos I see ARE complete, and there's a static 31 entries.

Edit: Yup, I'm just crazy. Nevermind that bit.

[quote="Celestics"][quote="jsbluethree"]
~snip~

Also @Tux: I'd recommend having the categories be Any% Bad End, Any% Neutral End, Any% True End, and 100% All Bosses[/quote]

It's just nitpicking at this point, but why not just Genocide/Any%/True Pacifist Ending? The distinction between Bad and Neutral is kinda blurry. What makes All Bosses different from Genocide btw? Is it because of "So Sorry"?
I suggest also adding in All Yellow Enemy Credits. This forces a True Best run that does more than just "not killing anyone" because now you can't simply skip fights with items.

Major Concern: I propose we require 0 reset files for each run - i.e. complete wipe with a deletion of APPDATA folders. This prevents any previous runs from screwing with the events and dialogue of future ones, and it sets the baseline for True Pacifist runs.
[/quote]

I'm just a casual (potential speedrunner; thinking about starting) who's fond of this game, but this makes the most sense out of what I've seen in this thread. Four categories: Any% (Neutral), Genocide, Pacifist, and 100% Pacifist (all yellow cast in credits).

Starting all runs from 0-save makes sense too; a lot of dialogue changes based on previous runs, and some things get skipped entirely. Doubly important for pacifist since it requires you to fight Asgore and all before going back for True Lab. I can understand New Game+ for games that skip cutscenes, tutorials, or unlocks, but this would just flat-out skip playable content.

Thankfully, looks like the above is what folks are doing for the most part.

[s]One concern for 100%, though, is that I think some non-combat cast members don't show up in the credits at all if you never interact with them, so I've yet to see a fully complete list of them. For example, I thought I remember seeing the Nice Cream salesman in the credits on my first run (and being unsure how to get his yellow text; I think I bought from him once and he had white text about being semi-successful) but videos I see don't have him (because it's not time-efficient to use him). Once I finish my current casual run, I'm going to keep an eye for him in the credits to confirm. I'm already post-Asgore, will finish either tonight or in the afternoon. Possible that I might just be crazy and the videos I see ARE complete, and there's a static 31 entries.[/s]

Edit: Yup, I'm just crazy. Nevermind that bit.

Celestics

2015-10-02 12:40:39 am

Gotta go forward!

Welcome to the speedrunning community Wumple, hope you join us in doing Undertale runs Smiley

We ended up throwing out the terms Any% and 100% because they don't make much sense for this game. The categories have been finalized as Genocide Ending (Geno.), Neutral Ending (Neutral), True Pacifist Ending (TPE), and All Yellow Credits (AYC). speedrun.com/undertale should be updated to reflect this. We've also added "Frisk Mode" (Frisk) as a for-fun category that shouldn't take too long. We'll be using these shorthand forms when communicating on Twitch/etc.

As for new discoveries - I have been watching speedruns lately and it appears that one streamer in particular finds that getting captured by Papyrus 3 times in a row and ending the fight ends up being faster than just going through the fight itself. By my tests it's slower, but can anyone confirm this?

From datamining it appears that encounters are based on ID's given out to fights that you engage in. Some are scripted based on location - most others are determined via step counts. If we can find out how these ID's are manipulated, we can optimize the 7G required for the Spider Donut, and also find ways to guarantee Flee success for certain fights.

Welcome to the speedrunning community Wumple, hope you join us in doing Undertale runs :) We ended up throwing out the terms Any% and 100% because they don't make much sense for this game. The categories have been finalized as Genocide Ending (Geno.), Neutral Ending (Neutral), True Pacifist Ending (TPE), and All Yellow Credits (AYC). speedrun.com/undertale should be updated to reflect this. We've also added "Frisk Mode" (Frisk) as a for-fun category that shouldn't take too long. We'll be using these shorthand forms when communicating on Twitch/etc.

As for new discoveries - I have been watching speedruns lately and it appears that one streamer in particular finds that getting captured by Papyrus 3 times in a row and ending the fight ends up being faster than just going through the fight itself. By my tests it's slower, but can anyone confirm this?

From datamining it appears that encounters are based on ID's given out to fights that you engage in. Some are scripted based on location - most others are determined via step counts. If we can find out how these ID's are manipulated, we can optimize the 7G required for the Spider Donut, and also find ways to guarantee Flee success for certain fights.

Mylexsi

Edit history:

Mylexsi: 2015-10-02 02:20:16 am

2015-10-02 02:19:29 am

Hi. I'm going to start running this.
One problem: I prefer to play it in full-screen, but OBS gets stupid when I do; either shrinking it to tiny proportions when not full-screen, or making it too big to fit while it is. Any way to make OBS play nice and display it properly regardless of game window size? (I want to be able to look at chat when nothing's going on, but switch to full-screen when i need to focus.)
And I don't have 2 monitors. Or a phone capable of displaying stream chat.

Wumple

2015-10-02 02:58:13 am

Thanks, Celestics. Smiley

Yeah, the categories you listed make a lot of sense. I'll use those terms from now on. I just downloaded LiveSplit, which seems to be linked with speedruns.com, and I see those listed in the program. Might have myself an AYC run sometime next week, still working on some of the routing and then need to practice it a bit. (...Maybe I should watch the current record for routing ideas, eh?) Also never even looked at recording software before--I'll be checking out OBS when I'm ready to star trying that. Probably won't stream, my internet's rubbish.

I've noticed something that I haven't seen in current runs, though. When I fought Mettaton EX, I got his ratings up to 12k before his legs fell off, and he went straight to taking calls from there, legs still intact. Might be a way to speed up his battle by a few turns. I'll have to do more testing to be sure the trigger is actually from reaching 12k.

SirNiko

2015-10-02 04:50:53 am

Heya Wumple,

I did the same on Mettaton EX - I suspect you're right about ending the fight early if you max out the ratings at 12k. It's not too hard to accomplish if you bring a few pieces of armor for Fashion bonuses, throw the stick for the fetch bonus and make sure to "Boast" before his heart attack (and then not get hit).

Mylexsi

Edit history:

Mylexsi: 2015-10-02 06:23:48 am

Mylexsi: 2015-10-02 06:23:09 am

Mylexsi: 2015-10-02 06:20:25 am

2015-10-02 06:18:48 am

What's his attack order? Should time equipment changes/stick use for his shorter attacks, especially the 'ad break'.
Also of note, you get (a small amount of) points for taking damage. May be worth to take as many hits as possible when not boasting, and/or get hit right at the end of attacks.
Another thing to consider is picking Heel Turn(or not even?) during a disco ball attack, getting right next to the disco ball, and mashing the fire button/s as hard as you can(becuase obviously, this game needs even more mashing)
Also a Glamburger(+300; MTT product) you can pick up from a trash can in The Core, though may not be worth it normally. Maybe just as a safety strat