Suikoden II

CVagts

2013-02-22 06:58:19 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

The length of the recruitment doesn't worry me, but the possible luck swings with the dice game do.

Omnigamer

2013-02-22 08:12:23 pm

Being able to win a battle in Matilda is nearly impossible unless you have Humphrey, and even then everything is faster than him so your party can expect a lot of casualties before being able to finish them off. It just ends up being pretty inconsistent, and for whatever reason the encounter rate seems really low around Highway. Right now my best plan is to go before Sindar, go up to Rakutei and run around picking up some good items while waiting for one of the many good enemy types. It only takes 2-3 good groups to finish all the levelling you need, and they give you an escape talisman on the way. This entire process takes about 10 min in my experience, but you never have to train again and you can Let Go enemies all the way until Rockaxe liberation.

...that said, tweaking will still be necessary, as CVagts said. We'll figure it out with some attempts.

CVagts

2013-02-22 08:17:15 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

I just want to make mention that I tried Omni's early-game strat, and it seems to work pretty well. The Mist Monster is a little trickier but all told you can end up at 8-9 after Bonaparte, which is plenty for the Flik duel.

Also want to mention that I was fighting the bees on North Sparrow and got an extra Flaming Arrows drop. I don't think it's worth grinding for, but fighting the bees rather than running might be beneficial just in case.

Lag.Com

2013-02-23 05:32:20 am

sda loyalist

Suikosource's bestiary lists all drops for enemies by the way. An extra flaming arrows would make Mist Monster faster?

Vaslof

2013-02-23 06:14:58 am

If not Mist Monster, then the Highland soldier fight in Kyaro.

Omnigamer

2013-02-23 07:44:57 am

Some copypasta from BadPotat0 on suikosource:

Quote:

Ok I just tested that 17 enter/exit trick with the mercenary fort and it work, thanks to the info from Omnigamer. The memory address seem to be 0x6AD7E

Here's how it work:

When Flik & Viktor leave the group the counter is reseted
Enter in the mercenary fort give 1 point
Talk to the Inn keeper in Ryube give 1 point
Talk to the Inn keeper in Toto give 1 point
Recruit Rikimaru give 5 points
Recruit Millie give 5 points
Recruit Kinisson & Shiro give 5 points

When you enter in Toto village the game does indeed check if the counter is greater or equal to 17.

Talking to any other Inn Keeper(including Pohl) or recruiting Futch & Humphrey with the matilda glitch doesn't give any point.

Fastest way may actually be talking to innkeepers, although this may be a point of contention between game time and real time.

For Mist Monster btw, it's pretty simple to get through with a spare Fire Arrow.

Turn 1: Hero uses Flame Arrow, Jowy uses Angry Blow, Bolgan uses Firebreath, Rina uses Flame Arrows (magic), Eilie uses Flame Arrows (item).
Turn 2: Hero uses Flame Arrow, Jowy uses Angry Blow, Bolgan defends, Rina uses Flame Arrows (magic), Eilie uses Flame Arrows (item).

IIRC this should be enough to kill Mist Monster, and you save one Flame Arrowsx2, and one Fire Wall. This and one attack is enough to kill Bonaparte in two turns.

Some copypasta from BadPotat0 on suikosource:

[quote]Ok I just tested that 17 enter/exit trick with the mercenary fort and it work, thanks to the info from Omnigamer. The memory address seem to be 0x6AD7E

Here's how it work:

When Flik & Viktor leave the group the counter is reseted
Enter in the mercenary fort give 1 point
Talk to the Inn keeper in Ryube give 1 point
Talk to the Inn keeper in Toto give 1 point
Recruit Rikimaru give 5 points
Recruit Millie give 5 points
Recruit Kinisson & Shiro give 5 points

When you enter in Toto village the game does indeed check if the counter is greater or equal to 17.

Talking to any other Inn Keeper(including Pohl) or recruiting Futch & Humphrey with the matilda glitch doesn't give any point.[/quote]

Fastest way may actually be talking to innkeepers, although this may be a point of contention between game time and real time.

For Mist Monster btw, it's pretty simple to get through with a spare Fire Arrow.

Turn 1: Hero uses Flame Arrow, Jowy uses Angry Blow, Bolgan uses Firebreath, Rina uses Flame Arrows (magic), Eilie uses Flame Arrows (item).
Turn 2: Hero uses Flame Arrow, Jowy uses Angry Blow, Bolgan defends, Rina uses Flame Arrows (magic), Eilie uses Flame Arrows (item).

IIRC this should be enough to kill Mist Monster, and you save one Flame Arrowsx2, and one Fire Wall. This and one attack is enough to kill Bonaparte in two turns.

Vaslof

2013-02-23 08:11:16 am

You save the fire wall, but you only have two Flame Arrows x2 if you don't get a drop from killer bees. So whether you have one extra after the fight depends on if you got the drop earlier.

CVagts

Edit history:

CVagts: 2013-02-23 09:09:40 am

CVagts: 2013-02-23 09:07:06 am

2013-02-23 09:04:16 am

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

Well there's my mistake, I didn't move Angry Blow off of Rina.

The Pilika pattern I used was twelve exits, recruit Millie (fix baby bird nest on the way), then wait to get Shiro/Kinnison until on the way to Tsai, since you have to exit Ryube Village and re-enter in order for Kinnison/Shiro to show up near the nest.

I think the extra Flaming Arrows would be entirely optional and not necessary, but if you get it, maybe have Millie use it in the Bonaparte to make that fight even faster?

Omnigamer

2013-02-23 09:47:44 am

I had a third Fire Arrows from somewhere, and I definitely didn't fight any Bee groups. Maybe it was a chest, or somebody came equipped with it? It might also be sold in a shop.

Correction to what I said earlier: You can equip one character with 2 of the Flaming Arrows and use one of each. This gives you two separate sets of Flame Arrowsx1 for Bonaparte. In my testing it only does ~580 damage, so you'd need an additional turn anyway to land one more hit of whatever. Also in the Mist Monster fight, have Bolgan attack first turn and then Flame Breath on the second to make for a little more efficient use of damage. Probably. The key is preventing the Monster from getting a second turn, but I think everybody moves faster. I also didn't do any additional checking on magic stats, affinities, etc, so item placement can probably be improved a bit more.

Vaslof

2013-02-23 09:59:02 am

Every guide I could find only mentions the killer bees as a possible source of a Flaming Arrows scroll at that point of the game :/

CVagts

2013-02-23 10:01:46 am

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

Yeah I don't think there's an extra Flaming Arrows anywhere else. It's definitely possible to get out of the Mist Monster fight with two spare uses though.

Vaslof

2013-02-23 10:04:55 am

Wanted to test out what happens if you don't recruit anyone. You still don't get Tsai in your group, left mercenary fort with just Riou, Jowy and Gengen Cheesy

CVagts

2013-02-23 10:05:49 am

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

Yeah, if you leave the fort without having saved Nanami, you still only get the three randoms (and I got jobbed out of Shiro AGAIN).

Vaslof

2013-02-23 11:11:45 am

Absolute fastest way to Matilda Trick confirmed: Two bird fights in a row. First fight, Riou and Jowy lived. Second fight, Jowy had Hungry Fiend, so first turn I let everyone defend, second turn Hungry Fiend, Riou and Jowy lived again. Both had level 40. Could have been better to keep others alive though. Next I killed myself and kept the levels, continuing at White Deer Inn. Whole thing took about 3-4 minutes. This is however WAY more unreliable than I thought, so I don't see this being used in a real run, unless segmented. In fact I'm starting to lean towards not using the Matilda Trick at all. Will have to do more testing, but that's the absolute fastest you can do it if anyone's interested.

Omnigamer

2013-02-23 06:06:15 pm

Levels for Jowy aren't really important beyond mid-20s, but getting Nanami up is somewhat of a requirement. Having higher stats, survivability, etc are vital to her as an initial Kindness bearer. But yeah, having a consistent setup for dealing with pink birds or any other encounters is not really possible for a single segment run.

I will argue that the Matilda trick is still necessary though, simply because it guarantees chances to Let Go through the entire portion of the game until you can inf potch/stallion your way through them. Not to mention it just makes everything so much more consistent from then on.

CVagts

2013-02-23 06:16:19 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

Whenabouts does Jowy get his Hungry Friend point? Or two Piercing One points? Because that's the highest his level needs to be.

Omnigamer

2013-02-23 07:24:07 pm

He should get his Hungry Fiend point at around level 28, but it depends how lucky you get in the stat ups.

CVagts

2013-02-23 08:35:50 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

What's your strategy for the SD Sword and Abomination? Do you go conservative on the sword, or just throw everything at him and heal up at Kuskus before heading back to North Window?

Omnigamer

2013-02-23 08:50:02 pm

I haven't worked out that far ahead yet. It will depend a lot more on whether or not you do Lakewest Early or not. In general though, neither one poses a real threat with 2 high-level members in the party, unless you get completely boned by RNG and they magic you to death. But even then, Water/Earth will help out a lot.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-02-24 01:57:41 am

Vaslof: 2013-02-24 01:56:50 am

2013-02-24 01:56:18 am

Safest to level up is recruiting Futch and Humphrey, then getting into a world map encounter against the birds. Put Riou and Nanami behind Futch and Humphrey, they will survive the battle. After that, phantoms are okay too. The whole trip takes around 12 minutes with good luck. I haven't had much luck with the mountain battles, they tend to screw me over often, and should also take longer than the bird strat. Unless you get atrocious world encounter rate, which is always a possibility. Are you guys planning on actually killing the boss and legit recruiting Futch and Humphrey?

Vaslof

2013-02-24 02:54:04 am

Still around 8 minutes behind "non-Matilda" time after Sindar ruins. Much will depend on how easy it is to set up the leveling trick against Armadillos and how far does it take you.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-02-24 04:55:24 am

2013-02-24 04:54:06 am

Yeah well I'm convinced the Armadillo route is better. Can get to level40+ just from a 5 armadillo encounter. Super safe too. Biggest threat is the card encounter in Sindar which can screw you over if you can't run away. Also you get Tsai leveled up if you want him as the kindness rune user.

Omnigamer

2013-02-24 11:30:50 am

All the things

But that would mean I actually have to think about what I want to do at Sindar :-/ bah.

I'll play around with it a bit.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-02-24 12:55:28 pm

Vaslof: 2013-02-24 12:54:37 pm

Vaslof: 2013-02-24 12:34:10 pm

Vaslof: 2013-02-24 12:34:09 pm

Vaslof: 2013-02-24 12:26:34 pm

2013-02-24 12:25:14 pm

Here's my beginning and solution to Matilda trick:

> Use the fire wall in Mist Monster battle, but save one flaming arrows (you kill it in 2 turns anyway)
> Use that flaming arrows to kill the highland soldiers in 1 move at your house in Kyaro
> Don't recruit Nanami. Don't take anyone in your party (except Tsai on the way back from his hut).
> You get more exp from each fight, only need to fight a few battles on the way. Pick your faves. I recommend Cut Rabbits at least for Double-Beat(s).
> You are strong enough to beat Flik without Bonaparte fighting or any recruiting at all. (use the leave fort trick to trigger Pilika
> Recruit Kinnison and Shiro anyway, you'll be using them after the fort burns. Put the bird nest up when you go recruit Tsai. After the village burns, go back to the forest and recruit them.
> Run away from every battle after Flik duel
> You get Nanami at Muse gate to fill the last spot in your party
> No Matilda trick, just straight to Sindar Ruins
> But buy a fire rune first and attach it to Nanami
> You can level up in the ruins, especially with the help of Jowy's lvl2 spell, but make sure Riou dies in them so he doesn't get exp. Would be useful to get enough MAG for Nanami to get a fire wall.
> Get the Magic Drain rune at least from chests.
> Fight the two-headed beast, I don't kill off Riou here, because if you do the fight might be hard. But if you just spam Bright Shield, no problemo.
> Escape Talisman out.
> Sell the Magic Drain rune in the inn, need potch for a Fury rune.
> In Muse, do the usual stuff. When you set out, take Tsai with you but no-one else.
> Buy the Fury Rune if you get lucky.
> Replace Nanami's Fire with Spark
> Replace Tsai's Unicorn with Fire
> Go to blacksmith, embed Fire Lizard to Tsai.
> Go to the forest
> Take off all your equipment, "equip best" on Tsai.
> Give them Medicine to heal Tsai.
> Get a 5 or 6 rabbit fight. Attack with Riou and Nanami, Jowy uses lvl2 spell, Tsai defend (in back row behind Riou)
> Lvl2 spell leaves them one hit from dead
> Now watch your HP and kill off everyone else than Tsai so that he can finish off one rabbit.
> I recommend taking it safe even if it takes a few more turns for the rabbits to beat on you, not worth a wipe
> Use Fire Arrows with Tsai to kill the last one (physical attack is a bad idea, they evade and counter way too often vs starting lvl Tsai)
> Tsai is now lvl50
> Take equipment off Tsai, "equip best" Riou. Also swap their spots in formation.
> First one "set-up" fight. Attack with Tsai a few times (make sure you dont win the battle) so his HP goes down thx to Fire Lizard.
> Then find an armadillo fight, five or six I recommend, the more there are the more levels you get. Difficulty doesn't change.
> Kill off Tsai with Fire Lizard.
> Riou can easily take one round of hits while defending.
> Use Bright Shield lvl2 spell to kill all enemies.
> Riou now lvl50 (depends on how low level he was, and how many enemies you got, this is why we kept him as low level as possible).

You can only get two lvl50's this way because you only have one Fire Lizard rune.

I didn't write down every small thing but that's the jist of it.

EDIT: I don't remember if I fought world encounters after fort burned, but anyway the lower you can keep Riou the more he will gain from armadillos.

Here's my beginning and solution to Matilda trick:

> Use the fire wall in Mist Monster battle, but save one flaming arrows (you kill it in 2 turns anyway)
> Use that flaming arrows to kill the highland soldiers in 1 move at your house in Kyaro
> Don't recruit Nanami. Don't take anyone in your party (except Tsai on the way back from his hut). 
> You get more exp from each fight, only need to fight a few battles on the way. Pick your faves. I recommend Cut Rabbits at least for Double-Beat(s).
> You are strong enough to beat Flik without Bonaparte fighting or any recruiting at all. (use the leave fort trick to trigger Pilika
> Recruit Kinnison and Shiro anyway, you'll be using them after the fort burns. Put the bird nest up when you go recruit Tsai. After the village burns, go back to the forest and recruit them.
> Run away from every battle after Flik duel
> You get Nanami at Muse gate to fill the last spot in your party
> No Matilda trick, just straight to Sindar Ruins
> But buy a fire rune first and attach it to Nanami
> You can level up in the ruins, especially with the help of Jowy's lvl2 spell, but make sure Riou dies in them so he doesn't get exp. Would be useful to get enough MAG for Nanami to get a fire wall.
> Get the Magic Drain rune at least from chests.
> Fight the two-headed beast, I don't kill off Riou here, because if you do the fight might be hard. But if you just spam Bright Shield, no problemo.
> Escape Talisman out.
> Sell the Magic Drain rune in the inn, need potch for a Fury rune.
> In Muse, do the usual stuff. When you set out, take Tsai with you but no-one else.
> Buy the Fury Rune if you get lucky.
> Replace Nanami's Fire with Spark
> Replace Tsai's Unicorn with Fire
> Go to blacksmith, embed Fire Lizard to Tsai.
> Go to the forest
> Take off all your equipment, "equip best" on Tsai.
> Give them Medicine to heal Tsai.
> Get a 5 or 6 rabbit fight. Attack with Riou and Nanami, Jowy uses lvl2 spell, Tsai defend (in back row behind Riou)
> Lvl2 spell leaves them one hit from dead
> Now watch your HP and kill off everyone else than Tsai so that he can finish off one rabbit.
> I recommend taking it safe even if it takes a few more turns for the rabbits to beat on you, not worth a wipe
> Use Fire Arrows with Tsai to kill the last one (physical attack is a bad idea, they evade and counter way too often vs starting lvl Tsai)
> Tsai is now lvl50
> Take equipment off Tsai, "equip best" Riou. Also swap their spots in formation.
> First one "set-up" fight. Attack with Tsai a few times (make sure you dont win the battle) so his HP goes down thx to Fire Lizard.
> Then find an armadillo fight, five or six I recommend, the more there are the more levels you get. Difficulty doesn't change.
> Kill off Tsai with Fire Lizard.
> Riou can easily take one round of hits while defending.
> Use Bright Shield lvl2 spell to kill all enemies.
> Riou now lvl50 (depends on how low level he was, and how many enemies you got, this is why we kept him as low level as possible).

You can only get two lvl50's this way because you only have one Fire Lizard rune.

I didn't write down every small thing but that's the jist of it.

EDIT: I don't remember if I fought world encounters after fort burned, but anyway the lower you can keep Riou the more he will gain from armadillos.

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2013-02-24 06:50:47 pm

2013-02-24 05:09:30 pm

All the things

Some interesting points from the sort-of test run this afternoon:

-You can buy Flaming Arrows in the Rare Finds at Ryube and Muse item shops. Very important for Double Head and/or extra stuff for Bonaparte. Except...
-Probably faster to skip Millie and instead level weapon up to 5 in Coronet. This enables a 3-4 round kill of Flik in the duel at level 7, which I would consider semi-consistent.
-One good battle in Sindar can bring everybody up to 12+. Aim to kill off a group of 6 with most people alive via Bright Shield or Sword Lvl 2.
-Rabbits are good, but need to come up with equivalent strats for the other enemy groups. 5-6 rabbits or 'dillos should be fine, but need to account for different resistances/weaknesses so that you can actually finish them.

Probably some more that I can't remember, but figured I'd put this down.

EDIT: Also figured this was worth a post.